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Name Lips
08-05-2010, 03:29 AM
To the modern liberal, "intellectual conservative" is an oxymoron. Conservatives are the illogical, un-intellectual, dangerous fanatics.

makes one wonder where the right-wing intellectuals went. they had them at one point. then they decided to start catering to the ignorant, the hateful, the religiously fanatic, and the xenophobic.


The conservative intellectuals are now considered moderates. And the politicians among them still play the "get elected" game, which means pandering to the extreme right to make sure they get their votes and don't split the right by introducing their own moronic candidates.

My dad is an intellectual conservative. He's a non-religious physicist and believes in logic and fiscal responsibility. He says he doesn't care if people want social programs, and vote for them. He just laments that they don't realize programs come with a cost. People keep trying to get stuff for free, more programs and lower taxes. Illogical! Absurd! If you want social programs or tighter regulation, you want higher taxes. That's ok, as long as you know that's what you want.

I think he's a small-government type simply because he doesn't trust the government to be able to think coherently about what is really needed versus what sounds like a good enough idea to get votes.

He is against things like Affirmative Action because it undermines logic. He doesn't care why you failed the entry exam. If you had social-economic factors holding you back, that's too bad. Your suffering is no substitute for academic ability.

He is for the death penalty on logical grounds. He doesn't care about vengeance or morality on the issue. He thinks society will be more streamlined and efficient if negative elements are removed.

He believes science can cure the ills of mankind.



It's a sort of ruthless utilitarianism. Most liberals (and fanatical right-wingers now that I think about it) have a moral imperative at the center of their philosophy. They believe in working towards what they see as a moral goal, and assume the pieces will fall together and form a functioning society if those goals are reached. Plan big, and the pieces will fall into place.

Intellectual conservatives think this is absurd. People whose hearts are in the right place, to them, frequently lose perspective and ignore obvious problems. Being a "noble goal" isn't a good enough reason to pursue it. There are always unintended consequences. You should instead choose a more realistic goal, carefully weigh the potential gains against the potential consequences, and only then pursue it, even if it doesn't have a resounding moral imperative behind it.



This is the sort of old-school pre-Reagan conservatism that used to be very popular. The cynical-beancounting-realist conservatism, versus the idealist-dreamer-harmony liberalism. It's a sort of icon of a bygone day, and their voices are largely shouted out by tea-partiers and fundamentalists. I like my dad's version of conservatism because you can have a conversation about it. You can debate it. And if you can out-logic him, he has a real chance of changing his opinion.

My brother and I are both fairly liberal. My dad doesn't care. We can have whatever opinions we want. That's why democracy works. But we also both believe that our opinions should be firmly grounded in facts -- we've just reached different conclusions than he has.

Radu
08-05-2010, 10:59 AM
I think all things considered that's a pretty good summary of one school of right wing thought, and I agree that it's one you can actually have a debate with.

In the current political clime, I'm tempted to say that "centrist" is nearly as bad of a label as "liberal" in the eyes of the vocal conservatives. (Notice I said, "vocal." I have no idea what proportion of Republicans share this thinking, but it's pretty much an open and shut case when someone claims the right has no active intellectual contingent anymore.)

My father is also a pretty dyed in the wool conservative. He believes strongly in individual responsibility, being financially conservative, and in individual freedom and privacy. He's for a strong military, basic public services, and a lack of governmental intervention in most other affairs. He thinks that regulations stifle business, taxes slow growth, and are really an institutionalized form of theft. (I sometimes joke with him that if the government was ever able to simplify the tax code, he may be out of a job-- he's a CPA.) In some ways I agree with him- there are some areas of life the government simply has no business being involved with in any fashion, but we disagree on what those areas are and on what extent government should be involved.

You know who I miss? George Bush, Sr. In comparison to how right wing politics developed, he was actually pretty good at fostering a discussion instead of... whatever the hell we have now.

And now, fair is fair:

What happened to the liberals? It used to be we would rail against what we perceive as social injustice, fight for greater protection of rights and sterner regulations to keep industry in check, and in general work to raise the standard of living for those least able to affect their own situation. I think those are still broad goals of the Democratic party, but we used to actually GET SHIT DONE. What have we managed to achieve in the last year of having a supermajority in both houses plus a sympathetic executive? Almost nothing of substance. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH US, LIBERALS?

Are we so addicted to minging about problems we've stopped trying to solve them, or is it something else entirely? How are we able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory so well?

Akunin
08-05-2010, 11:18 AM
My dad

I want to same-sex marry your dad :lol:

That is the kind of conservative that I miss. The first president that I remember was Reagan, and even with his mis-steps, he's what I think of when I think "Republican". I don't even know what to call the post-Clinton conservatives.

Even though it feels like the "Christian Right" is losing its grip on the Republican party at a faster rate each year, it's just getting replaced with a different bigoted, uneducated mob. If the Tea Partiers are the result of the conservative intellectuals moving toward the center of the scale (and stifling themselves in the process), I'm worried about what the next iteration of the Republican party will bring.

After all, we've got this shit (http://baracksbirthdaycards.com/) going on...

DarwinOfMind
08-05-2010, 11:26 AM
liberals are afraid of blame.

D1 "We've got a super majority, they can't fillibuster we're planning to do X"

R "You can't do X we disagree we'll fillibuster."

D1 "Um, if we do it all by ourselves we can't blame the repubs if it goes wrong"

D2 "I know best to just do nothing they can't blame us for making mistakes if we don't do anything"

D1 "Yeah, and we can say the republicans kept us from getting anything done"

R "Look we won!

PWD
08-05-2010, 11:43 AM
I miss conservatives who can argue more coherently than "they hate us for our freedoms". i think they're necessary, not only to steer the republican party, but to keep the democrats in check. (though the democrats do an awfully good job of keeping themselves in check through their combined incompetence, cowardice, and fear of being called out on their inevitable failures)

Varaj
08-05-2010, 11:45 AM
Right now we have too parties
Fiscally irresponsible and socially controlling
and
Fiscally irresponsible and socially controlling.

Only difference is what they want to spend on and what social issues they want to control.
:(

Old Fart
08-05-2010, 02:41 PM
To the modern liberal, "intellectual conservative" is an oxymoron.To the modern conservative, "intellectual liberal" is also an oxymoron. Precisely because of what you pointed out.
Most liberals (and fanatical right-wingers now that I think about it) have a moral imperative at the center of their philosophy.That's not thinking, that's feeling. The arguments and conclusions that result from "moral imperatives" often make about as much sense as a Fred Phelps sermon.

You lament that conservatives like your father seem to have disappeared since the Reagan years (actually, there were quite a few between 1981-89). I lament that there used to be liberals who could argue using logic, reason, mathematics, and economics. Persons capable of making morally neutral arguments. True intellectuals, who realized that when trying to win someone over to your way of thinking, insulting their ethics was probably not a good first step.

I miss conservatives who can argue more coherently than "they hate us for our freedoms".But in some cases that is true. I dislike the inherent moral relativism and propaganda in the choice of words. However, many of the cultural conflicts we encounter today are because one side views a given action as morally laudable and the other sees it as repugnant behavior.

PWD
08-05-2010, 03:40 PM
But in some cases that is true. I dislike the inherent moral relativism and propaganda in the choice of words. However, many of the cultural conflicts we encounter today are because one side views a given action as morally laudable and the other sees it as repugnant behavior.

I'm happy to have an enlightened conversation based in genuine understanding of culture clashes, but when some airhead thumps their chest and throws out red meat like that while snerking about moral relativism in anyone who calls them out, then I go for blood.

hobbiteer
08-05-2010, 07:38 PM
You lament that conservatives like your father seem to have disappeared since the Reagan years (actually, there were quite a few between 1981-89). I lament that there used to be liberals who could argue using logic, reason, mathematics, and economics. Persons capable of making morally neutral arguments. True intellectuals, who realized that when trying to win someone over to your way of thinking, insulting their ethics was probably not a good first step.


I miss conservatives who can argue more coherently than "they hate us for our freedoms". i think they're necessary, not only to steer the republican party, but to keep the democrats in check. (though the democrats do an awfully good job of keeping themselves in check through their combined incompetence, cowardice, and fear of being called out on their inevitable failures)

I miss those people in general. Debate, whether I've participated or viewed, has been slowly moving towards mud slinging and arguing. Filled with people incapable of viewing things from a logical standpoint, getting emotionally vested, and then feeling personally attacked when you present an alternate viewpoint.


You know who I miss? George Bush, Sr. In comparison to how right wing politics developed, he was actually pretty good at fostering a discussion instead of... whatever the hell we have now.

Are we so addicted to minging about problems we've stopped trying to solve them, or is it something else entirely? How are we able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory so well?

I also bush Bush Sr. As well as Clinton.

I know I'm a youngin' but from my limited view of politics, I can only see the word "intellectual" as a far-flung ideal of a person. People seem to focus more on strong emotional rhetoric in all of their speeches and debates then addressing issues upfront. And those that try to address issues are slandered back into their corner.

...Did I miss the point here?

Enk
08-05-2010, 07:47 PM
I'm happy to have an enlightened conversation based in genuine understanding of culture clashes, but when some airhead thumps their chest and throws out red meat like that while snerking about moral relativism in anyone who calls them out, then I go for blood.

The flip side (dropping high-handed pronouncements from a high horse) is just as bad.

It would be nice if the debate moved back into a discussion rather than a shit fight.

hobbiteer
08-05-2010, 07:52 PM
I'm happy to have an enlightened conversation based in genuine understanding of culture clashes, but when some airhead thumps their chest and throws out red meat like that while snerking about moral relativism in anyone who calls them out, then I go for blood.

Wait, how did I miss this? Debates now throw out red meat when people get called out? So... what I'm hearing is that I can get me some free foods by calling people's bs.

Also, I would go for blood too, that's where the meat is being stored.