Cop shows good restraint

[Varaj]

No sarcasm. Lady jumps the cop, interferes in an arrest and gets hit by the cop. Lucky she didn't get tazed and/or shot.
Fuck her and the other lady. Even if you don't think the arrest/ticket is justified resisting physically is the wrong choice and you are guilty of a crime as soon as you do.

A teen took a fist to the face by a cop, all because he stopped her for jaywalking.

Investigators in Seattle are reviewing the incident, which was captured on video, but the president of the Seattle Police Officers Guild argues the use of force was justified.

"He did nothing wrong," Rich O'Neill said, according to the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. "If anything, I think he maybe waited a little too long to engage in force because I think he was trying to defuse the situation."

But "it was obvious from the audio anyway of the two individuals that they were not going to be calmed down."

The incident began when an unnamed police officer spotted a teen jaywalking across Martin Luther King Jr. Way South around 3:10 p.m., according to a report on the Seattle Police Department Web site.

As he approached the 18-year-old male, the officer witnessed four females do the same thing at the same spot on the road, about 15 feet from a pedestrian crosswalk.

"The officer instructed the females to step over to his vehicle," officials said. "They were verbally antagonistic."

When one of them, a 19-year-old, began to walk away, the officer approached her and escorted her back.

"The female subject began to tense up her arm and pull away from the officer while yelling at him," police said.

The two argued, and the officer attempted to cuff her. That is when, according to officials, another of the teens interceded.

"The second female subject placed her hands on the officer's arm, causing the officer to believe she was attempting to physically affect the first subject's escape," police said.

A crowd had gathered around the officer by that time, and one witness captured much of the altercation on video.

As the officer and the 17-year-old struggled, the teen can be seen pushing the officer, who then responds by punching her in the face.

The crowd reacted with shock, and a voice is heard saying, "Are you serious?!"

Someone pulled the 17-year-old away, and the police officer proceeded to try to handcuff the 19-year-old.

"Do not struggle," the cop orders the woman during the video.

Backup eventually arrived, police said, at which point the teen who was punched was handcuffed. She was later examined by medical personnel.

"You obviously have to take into context everything that occurred from the point that the officer did make contact with the individuals until the situation ended," said Deputy Chief Nick Metz to King 5 News.

Metz noted there were some "concerns about the tactics the officer used."

"There will be a thorough investigation into this incident," said Police Sgt. Sean Whitcomb, according to Komo News.

msheridan@nydailynews.com; or follow him at Twitter.com/NYDNSheridan



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/06/16/2010-06-16_seattle_cop_punches_woman_in_face_over_routine_ jaywalking_stop.html#ixzz0r27C73cy

[Droid101]

This comment was posted on another site about this incident. And I completely agree:

"I don't care if I'm working the drive thru at Carl's Jr or waiting tables at Applebees or programming computers at IBM, if someone shoves me while I'm doing my job, we're going to Fist City."

[The Winslow]

I love that it makes the headline. It kinda slants the way I read the rest of the article.
Cop shows good restraint
Investigators in Seattle are reviewing the incident, which was captured on video. "He did nothing wrong," Rich O'Neill said, according to the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. "This is alarming. Policemen behaving professionally and respectably? This is seen like a sign of the apocalypse!"

The crowd reacted with shock, and a voice is heard saying, "Are you serious?!" Witnesses disbelieved as they saw one of the foundations of society crumbling in front of their eyes.

"There will be a thorough investigation into this incident," said Police Sgt. Sean Whitcomb, according to Komo News. "There has been no precedent on my watch, and I will make sure this will not happen again."

[Hatter]

Given the situation with the crowd forming and suspects resisting I'd say the cop behaved quite well.

[Random Encounter]

I saw the video on the news yesterday. Looked like a well thrown punch too.

[Bagpuss]

I can't believe he didn't use pepper spray or taze one of them, or draw his baton. Although looking at the video I'm not sure how practical it would have been to draw a weapon.

Time for Chris Rock again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

[Freedom Canadian]

I don't know.

That woman's shit was definitely incorrect, but I also question the police officer's actions. IMO, it's an inappropriate action in this situation, or almost any situation, really. Punching people in the head is not part of the arsenal taught to any police officer I know. Arm locks, take downs, basically wrestling moves, definitely. Pepper spray, sure. Tasers, some places. And if you really need to strike someone, use a baton, which allows you not to hurt your hand while offering more options to neutralize threats (and options which have fewer chances of maiming someone, too). Oh, and firearms, though that would definitely have been overkill here.

So yes, I think that punch was unprofessional and an inappropriate action. Definitely deserving of some kind of punishment. Though nothing so drastic as instant dismissal and criminal charges like a lot of people are demanding today.

But I agree that the women's actions were graver faults than the police officer's.


Lucky she didn't get tazed and/or shot.


Meh, I'd rather get tasered than punched in the face any day. :)

[Droid101]

So yes, I think that punch was unprofessional and an inappropriate action. Definitely deserving of some kind of punishment.

No fucking way. Defending one's self does not deserve punishment, and as I'm reading it, the article states as much from his superiors.

[AZRogue]

No fucking way. Defending one's self does not deserve punishment, and as I'm reading it, the article states as much from his superiors.

I don't think he was defending himself and don't believe you think he was, either. He reacted in anger when, as an authority figure, he is expected to show greater restraint.

If he had pepper sprayed her, or even tazed her, I don't think this would be news. But he didn't. He hit a girl with a closed fist to the face. What she did was wrong, but that doesn't give him leave to commit a crime as well.

Frankly, I'm kind of shocked he was too weak to get even just one of those joint locks to work, heh.

[Freedom Canadian]

No fucking way. Defending one's self does not deserve punishment, and as I'm reading it, the article states as much from his superiors.

Of course he has a right to defend himself. He also has a duty to follow the use-of-force protocols from his department.

What I'm saying is that this would probably be a violation of any use of force model I know. So unless regulations are wildly different where he works, there is probably some regulation against use of non-authorized weapons and this would be against the rules.

It would be a professional fault, not a crime or a fireable offense or anything.

Around here, he would definitely get a black mark on his record and need to take the use-of-force course again. Something like that.

[Freedom Canadian]

He reacted in anger when, as an authority figure, he is expected to show greater restraint.


Exactly. Unprofessional.

Whether he had a "right" to act this way or not, whether or not he's punished for it, it's bad policing, period.

The situation shouldn't have ever gotten to that point, for one.

[Northcott]

I don't know.

That woman's shit was definitely incorrect, but I also question the police officer's actions. IMO, it's an inappropriate action in this situation, or almost any situation, really. Punching people in the head is not part of the arsenal taught to any police officer I know. Arm locks, take downs, basically wrestling moves, definitely. Pepper spray, sure. Tasers, some places. And if you really need to strike someone, use a baton, which allows you not to hurt your hand while offering more options to neutralize threats (and options which have fewer chances of maiming someone, too). Oh, and firearms, though that would definitely have been overkill here.

So yes, I think that punch was unprofessional and an inappropriate action. Definitely deserving of some kind of punishment. Though nothing so drastic as instant dismissal and criminal charges like a lot of people are demanding today.

Meh, I'd rather get tasered than punched in the face any day. :)


See, I've got a couple problems with this. First being that trying to grapple with one person while others are getting increasingly aggressive is fucking dangerous. I'm a big fan of arm bars, joint locks, and other sadistic measures for inflicting pain on people without leaving a mark ('cause let's face it, that's how compliance is really achieved) -- but doing so while you're in the situation of a hostile crowd is some dangerous shit. When you're grappling one person, and another grabs you? You just entered the hot zone. You now have less than a second to decide how you're going to act before you potentially end up swarmed... and lemme tell you from personal experience, being swarmed sucks.

You can:
A) Release your original target and grapple with the new one... in which case you've either got people bolting, or turning on you and you get swarmed. If they're already aggressive enough to be grabbing at you, the latter option looks more likely when you're in the middle of it.

B) Reach for a weapon! Pepper spray, tazer, baton... the fun stuff. If you reach for the baton, you're going to have to hit someone. This will do considerably more damage than a fist... plus you need the time to draw it. Pepper spray will do less damage, but the crowd will still freak out just as much as if you punched someone... and you need the time to draw it. Tazer? With all the fuss that's been made about them in the news, and the recent revelation that a significant percentage of them may actually be over-powered, functioning well beyond the manufacturers claimed parameters? That's some touchy shit. Plus... you need the time to draw it.

I should watch the video. I don't know whether or not the cop had the space and time required to be able to draw a weapon without getting himself even deeper in shit. But if one hand was occupied in pinning someone, and the other arm was being grabbed by another person in a potentially aggressive group, then my gut reaction is to say that punching somebody in the face was the quickest, most efficient, and safest way to create a moment of shock that gave him much needed space, time, and safety.

I don't give a flying fuck if it's just a group of teenage girls (though regrettably, I probably wouldn't have been able to throw a punch, considering my own unfortunately sexist mindset) -- even small bodies can curbstomp a large, strong man's ass in the blink of an eye if they're aggressive and act in numbers.

Trying to wrestle more than one person at a time is fucking insane. Unless there's only two -- and even in that case, you need to be considerably more powerful than each of them -- you're completely fucked.


C) Really? You'd rather be tazed? Seriously, man? I'm tired, so my sarcasm filter's down. Were you just shitting?

[Bagpuss]

See, I've got a couple problems with this. First being that trying to grapple with one person while others are getting increasingly aggressive is fucking dangerous.

Yeah you, no longer threaten, you lose your Dex Bonus to AC, and you can't move.

[Bagpuss]

C) Really? You'd rather be tazed? Seriously, man? I'm tired, so my sarcasm filter's down. Were you just shitting?

I can see reason for that, punches to the face have lead to more deaths, and leave longer lasting injuries.

[Northcott]

I can see reason for that, punches to the face have lead to more deaths, and leave longer lasting injuries.

Your cops must be using a different brand of tazers than ours. Type 'taser death' into Google and you get some interesting results. If you believe Amnesty International (and being the cynic I am, I'm not sure I do), there have been 17 deaths from the police using tasers, in Canada alone, since 2001... and that total was published at the beginning of 2008. (Edit: And apparently a few more deaths cropped up before the end of 2008; according to the CBC, by October 2008, there were 20 proven cases, and more suspected of it - http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-tasers-canada/ )

A recent study of tasers revealed that a significant percentage of them were discharging far more electricity than the company said they should. I can't remember the numbers right now, and a brief Google search hasn't turned it up for me. I think it was 14% of the guns were discharging more juice than the manufacturers claimed they were capable of, and that the discharge was of clearly unsafe levels.

Milage varies. I've probably seen over a thousand punches to the face in my lifetime -- never seen anybody keel over dead from one.

[Bagpuss]

Milage varies. I've probably seen over a thousand punches to the face in my lifetime -- never seen anybody keel over dead from one.

A few incidents of one punch to the head being enough to kill someone, there are obviously numerous cases of fractured jaws and the like which will have a longer lasting effect than most tazer shots.

http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news?articleid=2959858

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/motorbike-fight-led-to-onepunch-death-20091123-iur8.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8254999.stm

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/victoria/Jail+time+Crofton+manslaughter+case+dealing+with+f ight+behind+Ladysmith/3132704/story.html

[Bagpuss]

If you believe Amnesty International (and being the cynic I am, I'm not sure I do), there have been 17 deaths from the police using tasers, in Canada alone, since 2001... and that total was published at the beginning of 2008. (Edit: And apparently a few more deaths cropped up before the end of 2008; according to the CBC, by October 2008, there were 20 proven cases, and more suspected of it - http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-tasers-canada/ )


If you read the incidents on the interactive map I find it hard to believe that the tazer was proven to be responsible in all those cases. Proven to be used in the arrest, but not as the cause of death.

For example arrest Sept 18 2007 stun gun was used. The person is held in cells over night (erractic behaviour noticed, but not acted on) has an arraignment hearing the next day, after the hearin back in the cells, suspect is allegedly repeatedly banged their head against the wall, was restrained (no tazer) and taking to a hospital with a helmet on, where they died.

Seems to me a head injury is more likely at fault, than the tazer the day before.

Six more July 22 2003, Sept 28 2003, May 1 2004, May 14 2004, June 23, 2004 and Dec 24 2005 (all from different regions on the map so unlike to be on crooked coroner) while a stun gun was use in the arrest, the coroner's inquest says that death was cause by a cocaine overdose, yet all are on the map and included as one of those 20 tazer deaths you are talking about.

While a number of the other alleged "tazer deaths" don't have coroner report results they do indicate that the suspect was on drugs

Another one on the map the suspect is bleeding from severe chest wounds (having likely been involved in an armed robbery, and jumped through a second story window), they couldn't possibly be related to his death, as opposed to the taser.

I think 20 proven cases of tasers causing deaths is clearly not the case. Sure their are some cases where I can see the taser is the likely cause (or at least a contributing factor), usually in elderly suspects or ones with pre-existing conditions the police would not have known about. But 20 deaths is a clear exaggeration.

[Edena_of_Neith]

My turn.

The police officer did *not* show good restraint.
What the police officer did was *not* appropriate.

Edena_of_Neith

[Bagpuss]

My turn.

The police officer did *not* show good restraint.
What the police officer did was *not* appropriate.

Edena_of_Neith

Okay what should he have done?

[Varaj]

B) Reach for a weapon! Pepper spray, tazer, baton... the fun stuff. If you reach for the baton, you're going to have to hit someone. This will do considerably more damage than a fist... plus you need the time to draw it. Pepper spray will do less damage, but the crowd will still freak out just as much as if you punched someone... and you need the time to draw it. Tazer? With all the fuss that's been made about them in the news, and the recent revelation that a significant percentage of them may actually be over-powered, functioning well beyond the manufacturers claimed parameters? That's some touchy shit. Plus... you need the time to draw it.

This is the one for me. A sudden show of force can often avert more. If he had continued the force it would have been improper. Instead he made everybody back up by demonstrating he would use force allowing him to contain the one person and give time for more cops to arrive.

[Scarbonac]

Using a tool (baton, pepperspray, taser, gun) or a special technique (joint locks, whatever) makes it more of an impersonal exercise of authority; punching a person in the face?

That's personal and unprofessional.

Mebbe I'm wrong, but to me his reaction reeks of "I'll show you, bitch!" -- dude probably lost it due to his authoratai being threatened.

[Varaj]

Using a tool (baton, pepperspray, taser, gun) or a special technique (joint locks, whatever) makes it more of an impersonal exercise of authority; punching a person in the face?

That's personal and unprofessional.

Mebbe I'm wrong, but to me his reaction reeks of "I'll show you, bitch!" -- dude probably lost it due to his authoratai being threatened.

Was holding somebody with one arm and another person holding his other arm. Trying to grab for a implement increases greatly the risk the person attempts to stop him turning into a 1 against 2 grapple that could quickly draw the crowd into the brawl.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Okay what should he have done?

A Citation (court summons) for Disorderly Conduct. Or a Citation for Harassing a Police Officer. Or a Citation for Interfering with a Police Officer. Or something along these lines.

[Bagpuss]

A Citation (court summons) for Disorderly Conduct. Or a Citation for Harassing a Police Officer. Or a Citation for Interfering with a Police Officer. Or something along these lines.

And you issue that citation to someone that is attacking you while you are detaining someone how exactly? Which free hand do you use to write the citation up?

[Brynja]

His penhensile cock should be able to handle it.

[Edena_of_Neith]

And you issue that citation to someone that is attacking you while you are detaining someone how exactly? Which free hand do you use to write the citation up?

A young woman *pushing* a police officer, is not assault in my book.
I am quite sure the police officer could have handled the situation without throwing punches.

[Northcott]

Was holding somebody with one arm and another person holding his other arm. Trying to grab for a implement increases greatly the risk the person attempts to stop him turning into a 1 against 2 grapple that could quickly draw the crowd into the brawl.

And that's the bullseye right there.

1) A punch in the face is a more personal show of force? Again, maybe I'm in the minority on this... but having been punched in the face a whole lot, and attacked with implements a couple times, my general take on it is that I don't give a fuck what they're attacking me with. Attacking me is a personal show of force, period, regardless of empty hands or tools. I'd be more concerned about a baton or taser than a shot to the chops. There's a far greater chance of being seriously hurt with either of those. A punch in the face is, more often than not, little more than a shocking experience.

2) You cannot out-wrestle a crowd. Even two people requires vastly greater skill and strength. Even a seasoned combatant can be overwhelmed very easily by numbers. A 2nd combatant, even if she were a fraction of his size, would be a significant danger.

3) Draw a weapon, a weapon's in play. If you're outnumbered in a wrestling situation, there's a fair chance it'll get used on you.

4) Drawing a weapon takes time. Even if you're quick, studies in law enforcement (and practical experience in the field) have proven time and time again that a person can close 10, 20, even 30 feet with you and attack before you can draw a weapon. This guy was expected to somehow magically do this while being grappled? Seriously? Then refer back to point 3 for the consequences of that action.

Was the cop operating on instinct and not on protocol? Yep. Was he using tactical thinking? Probably not. Was he just pissed that someone was ignoring his authority? Maybe! In that case, he's a dick... but it's still fucking stupid to decide that you want to take a confrontation with the police to a physical level. Expect that they will escalate with the intent of ending it; and using force to end a confrontation is never, ever pretty.

If he'd used the baton on her, people would be screaming for his fucking head. If he'd tased her, people would be screaming for his head. If he'd maced the little bitch, her red, swollen, tear-stained face would be the new poster child for police brutality -- especially if she's normally even moderately pretty. The media love to show bad things happening to pretty people, because the masses go nuts over it.

His comrades in arms know him, and his reasons, better than we ever will. Hopefully they'll rein him in if he's a dick... though my experience has been that cops protect their own, right or wrong, so I'm not hopeful about that. FC may have a more intimate and/or accurate view on that end of things.

[Northcott]

A young woman *pushing* a police officer, is not assault in my book.
I am quite sure the police officer could have handled the situation without throwing punches.

Please tell us how.

Pushing, as an expression of physical aggression, is generally the step before an all-out attack. Watch people fight in bars or on the street, and it often starts with a push or two as people test the waters. Could be it was just a single push. Could be it was the prelude to shit going south, in which case we would have heard a news story about a cop getting curb-stomped by a gang of teenage girls while a crowd of people watched and did nothing.

[Varaj]

A young woman *pushing* a police officer, is not assault in my book.
I am quite sure the police officer could have handled the situation without throwing punches.

Correct it is not assault it is battery which is a criminal offence.

Doesn't matter if one person is young and female and the other is a cop. Touching somebody outsides the bounds of the law is battery.

[Bagpuss]

A young woman *pushing* a police officer, is not assault in my book.

Actually it is under law.

I am quite sure the police officer could have handled the situation without throwing punches.

To be fair to you, he probably could. When he throws the punch the intruding woman has already forced him to let go of the suspect he was trying to handcuff and he has been shoved back by her. He might have been able to draw pepper spray or a tazer or his baton, then again he might not.

There are lots of people telling her to stop resisting arrest, and trying to drag off the other woman, but neither of them are having it.

Edit: Having watched the video again they are saying "Just stop Walsh." so they obviously know the officer (Ian Walsh) and it's him they are trying to get to stop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2SkfSS7Di4

Slightly more info at this article. http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/211439.asp

[Northcott]

Edit: Having watched the video again they are saying "Just stop Walsh." so they obviously know the officer (Ian Walsh) and it's him they are trying to get to stop.

Now that's an interesting wrinkle!

[Kastil]

Maybe the girl should have stopped resisting arrest and the crowd stop acting like a bunch of dicks. This video doesn't show the whole thing, only enough to have people scream up and down about police brutality. Apparently it's okay to disrespect a cop because you don't think what you're doing is a big deal (breaking the law is breaking the law. Period) but I bet if they wouldn't have hassled him, which I think most likely happened, they wouldn't have gone to this level.

Those are some stupid ass bitches and instead of a punch he should have backhanded her to put her in her place.

[Edena_of_Neith]

I am against the use of force, except in extremis.

Unfortunately for the police, extremis is all too normal. A routine traffic stop can turn into a death sentence if they are not careful. It is really difficult and painful to be a police officer, obviously.
The police are in situations where they are required to use force, required to employ what we would call violence, on a regular basis.

Being in such a dark world, dealing with the worst society can throw at you, can hurt people, and it hurts those who become police officers. Nobody is a superperson, police officers are merely human, and they are subject to psychological injury and trauma from what they experience like anyone else.

Thus, it is more important for them, to practice restraint, to receive rest and relief from the stress, to obtain support and comfort from their peers, colleagues and the public, good pay from their employers, respect from the people.

Unfortunately, it does not work this way.
We know how the system actually works.

But I don't have to like it, or approve of it. Whether it is underpaid and overworked police, disrespect and fear and hatred towards the police, poor behavior by the police towards the populace, police driven over the edge into suicide and despair by their jobs, politicians and lawyers demonizing the police and/or the suspects for personal gain, unnecessary and gratuitious violence on anyone's part, I don't have to approve of it.

I saw a police video of a man who approached a sobriety checkpoint.
The man, who was drunk, turned around and sped off at high speed, going the wrong way on the freeway.
When the police caught him, they were infuriated, and they spelled it out like it was: 'You idiot. Drunken driving is a misdemeanor. Running is a FELONY. Driving down the wrong way is threatening a lot of innocent lives!'
They sat on him and cuffed him, read him his rights, and then put him in a squad car (he suffered no injury at their hands, although he did suffer minor injury when he crashed in the ditch after losing control.)

All very appropriate and proper behavior on their part of the police, I think.
Sure, they were enraged, and rightly so. But they did not let that get in the way of their professionalism.

[Droid101]

It's clear that the people in this thread who are up in arms about how MEAN and PERSONAL the cop made it by throwing the punch, have never been in any kind of physical altercation before.

Northcott is 100% right here.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

It's clear that the people in this thread who are up in arms about how MEAN and PERSONAL the cop made it by throwing the punch, have never been in any kind of physical altercation before.

Northcott is 100% right here.

I agree. We train police and military personnel to act with as limited amount of force as required, but everyone I've ever known who has been in a real world situation where force is required... well, training for it is one thing, and being in it another thing entirely.

Was the cop operating on instinct and not on protocol? Yep. Was he using tactical thinking? Probably not. Was he just pissed that someone was ignoring his authority? Maybe! In that case, he's a dick... but it's still fucking stupid to decide that you want to take a confrontation with the police to a physical level. Expect that they will escalate with the intent of ending it; and using force to end a confrontation is never, ever pretty.

Northcott says it better than I could, right there. I would never think of getting into a scrap with a cop, because I respect the position even if the guy is an asshole. Nothing good will come of it. If you want to "fight the power", do it legally and don't be a dumbass and take it to the level of a physical altercation... even if you win against a cop, you lose.

[Kastil]

So I take it the cop didn't have a dashboard cam? even my little town has those.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

So I take it the cop didn't have a dashboard cam? even my little town has those.

Maybe he did and they just aren't releasing it to the public? Either way, from the video on YouTube, the cop was clearly not out of bounds, at least in my opinion. Hell, the stupid bitch continued to struggle even after he punched her friend.

[Space Cadet B^3]

Punch more people, let the gods sort them out

[Northcott]

It's clear that the people in this thread who are up in arms about how MEAN and PERSONAL the cop made it by throwing the punch, have never been in any kind of physical altercation before.

Northcott is 100% right here.

heh. Some of the people who think the cop is out of bounds have not only been in scraps, but normally back the cops when there's a cry of outrage from the public. As much as I cuss when I converse, there's rarely vitriol behind it. I'm just a foul-mouthed fuck... except around my kid.

There's been some good points made on both sides of the equation. On a personal level, I remember what it's like to be in crowd control situations, how quickly it can spiral out of control, and what it's like to be swarmed. It's fucking surreal. I find it hard to ever blame a cop for lashing out in that kind of threat situation. I actually think this guy took a very restrained approach. Nightsticks break bones far more easily than fists do.

[Vermicious Knid]

Northcott says it better than I could, right there. I would never think of getting into a scrap with a cop, because I respect the position even if the guy is an asshole. Nothing good will come of it. If you want to "fight the power", do it legally and don't be a dumbass and take it to the level of a physical altercation... even if you win against a cop, you lose.


Yup. I wouldn't have pulled that even when I was a stupid 20-something punk. Hands on the cop = ends in tears.

As an aside, that entire crowd could use some punches to the face. What a bunch of stupid fucks.

[Freedom Canadian]

See, I've got a couple problems with this. First being that trying to grapple with one person while others are getting increasingly aggressive is fucking dangerous.

Of course it is. Doing anything when alone while others are getting increasingly aggressive is dangerous. Including punching people in the face. For instance, that punch could have escalated the conflict instead of defusing it. He was lucky.




You can:
(...)

B) Reach for a weapon! Pepper spray, tazer, baton... the fun stuff. If you reach for the baton, you're going to have to hit someone. This will do considerably more damage than a fist... plus you need the time to draw it. Pepper spray will do less damage, but the crowd will still freak out just as much as if you punched someone... and you need the time to draw it. Tazer? With all the fuss that's been made about them in the news, and the recent revelation that a significant percentage of them may actually be over-powered, functioning well beyond the manufacturers claimed parameters? That's some touchy shit. Plus... you need the time to draw it.

There is no legal requirement to hit someone with a baton once it's out. ;)

In fact, the main effect of the baton is to intimidate people. Deploying it does a noise not unlike that of cocking a shotgun that drives the point that you mean business straight into the reptilian brain. It's incredible.

Also, batons don't necessarily inflict more damage than a punch to the face because they give you more options and more control. This is why cops are trained to use them and not in striking martial arts.

I should watch the video. I don't know whether or not the cop had the space and time required to be able to draw a weapon without getting himself even deeper in shit. But if one hand was occupied in pinning someone, and the other arm was being grabbed by another person in a potentially aggressive group, then my gut reaction is to say that punching somebody in the face was the quickest, most efficient, and safest way to create a moment of shock that gave him much needed space, time, and safety.


Here's my problem. You are looking solely at the moment he threw the punch while I'm saying he lost control of the situation earlier on which forced him in a situation he should not have been in.




I don't give a flying fuck if it's just a group of teenage girls (though regrettably, I probably wouldn't have been able to throw a punch, considering my own unfortunately sexist mindset) -- even small bodies can curbstomp a large, strong man's ass in the blink of an eye if they're aggressive and act in numbers.

I agree there ! The identity of the perp has little to do with it, IMO.


C) Really? You'd rather be tazed? Seriously, man? I'm tired, so my sarcasm filter's down. Were you just shitting?

Of course not.

Type 'taser death' into Google and you get some interesting results. If you believe Amnesty International (and being the cynic I am, I'm not sure I do), there have been 17 deaths from the police using tasers, in Canada alone, since 2001... and that total was published at the beginning of 2008.

You can do better than that. Those numbers are absurd. Even Amnesty International usually frames those numbers as "deaths occurring after a person was tasered", knowing full well that people will read that statement and think that those deaths were caused by tasers. But in the majority of those cases, autopsies reveal that the taser is not a cause of death.

You really shouldn't put too much credence on most anti-police-brutality stats. They are very misleading. For instance, we once had an organization distributing flyers talking about 40 police-caused deaths in Montreal since whatever date. But if you went to their website and looked at the events in question, they counted every situation where someone died and a police officer was present. One event was a woman who was drowning in the river and a police officer tried and failed to save her (risking his life in the process). Bam, police brutality !

Not to say that police brutality doesn't exist, of course.


Milage varies. I've probably seen over a thousand punches to the face in my lifetime -- never seen anybody keel over dead from one.

What about permanent damage ?

I stand by my statement. I also know a bunch of people who were tasered (it's mandatory at police school) and who expressed similar ideas before.


I think 20 proven cases of tasers causing deaths is clearly not the case. Sure their are some cases where I can see the taser is the likely cause (or at least a contributing factor), usually in elderly suspects or ones with pre-existing conditions the police would not have known about. But 20 deaths is a clear exaggeration.

Right on !


Was the cop operating on instinct and not on protocol? Yep. Was he using tactical thinking? Probably not.

That's all I've been saying all along !

Believe it or not, it's against regulation and unprofessional for a police officer to act on instinct instead of protocol and fail to use tactical thinking.

His comrades in arms know him, and his reasons, better than we ever will. Hopefully they'll rein him in if he's a dick... though my experience has been that cops protect their own, right or wrong, so I'm not hopeful about that. FC may have a more intimate and/or accurate view on that end of things.

Oh, definitely. The thin blue line is pretty damn thick. Just like you should never just accept the anti-police version of a use of force event, you should also not just accept the police version. They are equally biased in the other direction.

So I take it the cop didn't have a dashboard cam? even my little town has those.

Was there even a car involved ?

[Edena_of_Neith]

I have respect for the police, in the sense I have respect for lightning.

Lightning is a powerful force of nature. It does very good things, in that it produces nitrates from the inert nitrogen in the atmosphere, and these nitrates fertilize the soil and make life possible.
On the other hand, if a thunderstorm is raging one does not leave one's shelter, for one does not usually wish to be deep fried in a split second.

The police are the same way.
They are, verily, just human beings, but they have authority and power that place them in a special category. One does not wish to attract their attention, and if one does one should be rather humble towards them (just as one should be rather humble towards lightning, rather than brandishing your golf club at the sky ...)
They do a lot of really good things. Without the police, there would be only the Rule of Anarchy, the Law of the Jungle.
But incur their wrath, and you might as well be brandishing that golf club at the storm clouds.

A healthy respect, towards the police, is good for you. It saves you from getting traffic tickets. It could save you from far worse.

I do not believe in violence except in extremis, but the police are not bound by *my* thinking, and they act within parameters outside any control of mine ... or, for that matter, outside of the control of a certain 17 year old girl who obviously doesn't have the remotest clue about the force she is dealing with.
I hope the punch warned her. Because it gets worse, far worse, from there, if she chooses to brandish her fist at those storm clouds in the sky.

I may not care for violence, but the lightning - or the police - does not care what I think, and I do not wave my fists at storm clouds, and call for the thunderstorm to cease and desist from violence, while it rages around me.

[Northcott]

Of course it is. Doing anything when alone while others are getting increasingly aggressive is dangerous. Including punching people in the face. For instance, that punch could have escalated the conflict instead of defusing it. He was lucky.

He was certainly lucky. I don't think he was calculating things, but who knows? He might have been. If so, I'd be inclined to agree that a sharp, decisive action then and there would be a better course than continuing to grapple.

There is no legal requirement to hit someone with a baton once it's out. ;)

In fact, the main effect of the baton is to intimidate people. Deploying it does a noise not unlike that of cocking a shotgun that drives the point that you mean business straight into the reptilian brain. It's incredible.

Also, batons don't necessarily inflict more damage than a punch to the face because they give you more options and more control. This is why cops are trained to use them and not in striking martial arts.

I'm familiar with the control techniques used. They're still just a variation on grappling. When you're outnumbered, you have to resort to striking tactics, or you're fucked. Controlling techniques only work under very limited circumtstances, and leave you very vulnerable as soon as those circumstances change.

Here's my problem. You are looking solely at the moment he threw the punch while I'm saying he lost control of the situation earlier on which forced him in a situation he should not have been in.

Ah! Okay, I can't deny that one. He was clearly not in control of the situation if it escalated to that level. I'm figuring that'll be what the cops will look at first in a review: was that a situation that could be controlled, or did he do the best possible in the situation he had?

I agree there ! The identity of the perp has little to do with it, IMO.

And yet, personally, I don't know that I could have reacted so impartially -- or some might say brutally. I still automatically get this sick tweak in my gut at the thought of someone punching a woman in the face. Old fashioned.

You can do better than that. Those numbers are absurd. Even Amnesty International usually frames those numbers as "deaths occurring after a person was tasered", knowing full well that people will read that statement and think that those deaths were caused by tasers. But in the majority of those cases, autopsies reveal that the taser is not a cause of death.

I did put in that disclaimer about not believing Amnesty's numbers! Then I threw in the CBC for fun, too.

Truth be told, I'm just not invested enough in the topic to dig much. I do know that there were problems with the taser units themselves. You'll also note that I'm far from the guy who squeals about police brutality. ;)

What about permanent damage ?

I stand by my statement. I also know a bunch of people who were tasered (it's mandatory at police school) and who expressed similar ideas before.

That includes permanent damage. I worked as a bouncer for near three years, half of that time in a very violent club. I did see some brutally violent fights, and some with rather horrific ends, but these didn't come as the result of a single punch to the face. Of the two that did end in one punch, only one of them did permanent damage -- broken nose. Amusingly enough, both were Wilfred Laurier Univeristy football jocks who came in to start fights and generally be douchebags. Two of the guys on the bouncing staff were hopefuls for the Olympic boxing team. A ball player picked a fight with Terry, because Terry looked slim and mousy... and before anybody knew what had happened, there was a ball player on the ground with his nose flattened against his face and lots of blood.

One kid got killed, too, but that wasn't from a punch to the face.

I'd also be willing to bet that getting tasered in police school, under controlled conditions, is a very different beast from getting tasered in the street. Unless they've fixed the issue with the taser output, that's a second factor that leaves me not trusting them as tools.

Plus, again, in a crowd situation where you're already grappling? You draw it, and it's in play. If you're already being grappled, you don't even have the advantage of time or distance.


That's all I've been saying all along !

Believe it or not, it's against regulation and unprofessional for a police officer to act on instinct instead of protocol and fail to use tactical thinking.

Interesting... and good to know!

[Lady_Acoma]

The only thing I really question in the physicality of it on the police officers part is really the choice to go with a punch to the face. I find that to be a decided act of aggression on his part. Especially because he had been pushed back, the other individual had stepped away, and his arms went down for a moment before both hands came up with fists.

I have not been in a fight, I would assume it is an automatic response, or at least a smart one, if you are a scrapper to immediately do this. However as a cop I would think he would have been trained in more body blows. Again I am not a fighter however.

Either way though I have no problem with him becoming physical whether it was a woman or not (note these were not small girls anyway not that that matters either). It would not have received the press but I think if I were to hear of it I at least hope I would still question the use of a fist to the face instead of some other reaction.

[Scarbonac]

It's clear that the people in this thread who are up in arms about how MEAN and PERSONAL the cop made it by throwing the punch, have never been in any kind of physical altercation before.

Northcott is 100% right here.

You need to stop talking.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

You need to stop talking.

Why? Are you going to punch him in the face?

[Scarbonac]

Why? Are you going to punch him in the face?

Why, yes, I'm going to reach right through my monitor and let him have it with my 100' arms.

:rolleyes:

[AZRogue]

The only thing I really question in the physicality of it on the police officers part is really the choice to go with a punch to the face. I find that to be a decided act of aggression on his part. Especially because he had been pushed back, the other individual had stepped away, and his arms went down for a moment before both hands came up with fists.

I have not been in a fight, I would assume it is an automatic response, or at least a smart one, if you are a scrapper to immediately do this. However as a cop I would think he would have been trained in more body blows. Again I am not a fighter however.

Either way though I have no problem with him becoming physical whether it was a woman or not (note these were not small girls anyway not that that matters either). It would not have received the press but I think if I were to hear of it I at least hope I would still question the use of a fist to the face instead of some other reaction.

I see the same thing. The cop disengaged for a moment and he was able to drop his arms before bringing them back up and punching the one girl and trying to grapple her, then dropping her to start grappling the first girl again. When he paused, he should have went for the pepper spray, rather than have gone for a closed fist punch.

Or, he should have just grappled either girl effectively. I swear, it looked like he was playing around with them half the time. Pepper spray would have helped with that a bit, too.

The two girls aren't blameless. On the contrary, they should be locked away and fondled by large women with beards for a long time. But their guilt is a separate issue from the cop and his behavior, which I think was unprofessional and inappropriate. He's compromised not only his own authority in the community, he's made things a little more dangerous for his fellow officers out there, now that his actions have sparked so much anger. Closed fist to the face of a girl who was not currently touching him is just not a proper use of force. I would have been happier with a mass tazing, for sure.

[Northcott]

This is what we need in the world... a mass taser. Zaps everyone in a cone.

The sadist in me finds this hillarious.

[Harry]

This is what we need in the world... a mass taser. Zaps everyone in a cone.

The sadist in me finds this hillarious.

It would better tactically as a 20' radius AoE blast. Less chance of taking out allies or innocent townspeople. Of course, if your party has split and you are fighting alone, or if your party has enough HP to weather the storm, a cone-shaped blast may be what you need.

hth

[Droid101]

You need to stop talking.

Wow! Great response!

How about this: Shut the fuck up.

[Name Lips]

I've been wanting to say this from the beginning.

He had trouble putting the cuffs on -- that means he had terrible restraint!

[Dacke]

It would better tactically as a 20' radius AoE blast. Less chance of taking out allies or innocent townspeople. Of course, if your party has split and you are fighting alone, or if your party has enough HP to weather the storm, a cone-shaped blast may be what you need.
Area bursts provoke AoOs, which you don't want when dealing with crowds. Close blasts and bursts don't.

[Scarbonac]

Wow! Great response!

Glad to be of service.

How about this: Shut the fuck up.

Let us review:

It's clear that the people in this thread who are up in arms about how MEAN and PERSONAL the cop made it by throwing the punch, have never been in any kind of physical altercation before.


When you don't know what the hell you're talking about, you need to stop talking.

Stop talking.

[Droid101]

When you don't know what the hell you're talking about, you need to stop talking.


Guess you should be taking your own advice, hm?

Or, tell us why you think that opinion is wrong.

[Scarbonac]

Guess you should be taking your own advice, hm?

Or, tell us why you think that opinion is wrong.

If you don't get it without being told, then I doubt you'll understand when it's screamed in your face.

It's clear that the people in this thread who are up in arms about how MEAN and PERSONAL the cop made it by throwing the punch, have never been in any kind of physical altercation before.

You honestly don't see how that is 1) Uninformed, 2) Ignorant, 3) Trolling, 4)Straw-manning, 5) Cuntish, 6) Insulting and 7) Wrong?

Really?

You really really think that comes off as just an innocent, legitimately-held opinion?

You really need to stop talking.

[Space Cadet B^3]

As the local resident peacenik (ask around, people will back me on this) I say punch them harder!

[Droid101]

You honestly don't see how that is 1) Uninformed,I'm plenty informed.
2) Ignorant,Nope.
3) Trolling,Of course. That's what the internet is for.
4)Straw-manning,Not really.
5) Cuntish,Nope.
6) InsultingYou aren't even making any sense now.
7) Wrong?Prove it.

Really?

You really really think that comes off as just an innocent, legitimately-held opinion?

You really need to stop talking.
I really think your opinion means nothing, on this, or any other subject. :)

[Scarbonac]

I'm plenty informed.

Hahahahaha no.

Nope.

Yup.

Of course. That's what the internet is for.

In that case, why should what you say be taken even slightly seriously?

Not really.

Wrong.

Nope.

Yup.

You aren't even making any sense now.

OK, now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Prove it.

It is incumbent on you to prove yourself right.

I really think your opinion means nothing, on this, or any other subject. :)


I don't think that your opinions count as nothing, I know it.

[Aside: these Russian Face-Slapping Contests are taxing.]

[Droid101]

In that case, why should what you say be taken even slightly seriously?



I don't know. That's your bad, not mine.

[Scarbonac]

I don't know. That's your bad, not mine.

Oh, wow. IKYABWAI?

Srsly?

What are we, on 4chan now?

C'mon, gimme something to work with, Mr. Aspie Internet Tuff Guy.

[Freedom Canadian]

And yet, personally, I don't know that I could have reacted so impartially -- or some might say brutally. I still automatically get this sick tweak in my gut at the thought of someone punching a woman in the face. Old fashioned.

Nothing wrong with that.


I did put in that disclaimer about not believing Amnesty's numbers! Then I threw in the CBC for fun, too.

Truth be told, I'm just not invested enough in the topic to dig much. I do know that there were problems with the taser units themselves. You'll also note that I'm far from the guy who squeals about police brutality. ;)

Heh. Neither am I. :)

And I'm actually middle-of-the-road when it comes to tasers. I'm quite happy with them being limited to riot police and SWAT in Quebec. And I'm totally against them being use to enforce compliance like the RCMP allows.

If you are interested in taser use, though, I recommend reading the Braidwood Inquiry report (about the Vancouver airport RCMP taser death). The second and final part was released today. (Part one was about taser use while part two is about the actions of officers involved in that incident.) Braidwood seems pretty level-headed about the whole thing.

URL, for the interested: http://www.braidwoodinquiry.ca/



I'd also be willing to bet that getting tasered in police school, under controlled conditions, is a very different beast from getting tasered in the street. Unless they've fixed the issue with the taser output, that's a second factor that leaves me not trusting them as tools.

Sure, it's different. Still, in the great majority of cases, a punch will still hurt for some time while a taser shock will stop being painful almost immediately.



Plus, again, in a crowd situation where you're already grappling? You draw it, and it's in play. If you're already being grappled, you don't even have the advantage of time or distance.

He wasn't being grappled at that particular moment. The woman he hit had just backed away a bit and he had to take two steps forward to punch her.

It was a textbook situation for pepper spray, IMO. But the guy didn't have time to ponder the situation like I did. :)


He's compromised not only his own authority in the community, he's made things a little more dangerous for his fellow officers out there, now that his actions have sparked so much anger.

Indeed. In fact, if you listen to the video closely, the person filming the scene seems pretty neutral about the whole thing until the punch, and then it seems like everyone is crowding around and going "hell, no, that ain't right!" and stuff like that. There doesn't seem to be any angry crowd before the punch, only a pair of angry girls.

[Droid101]

C'mon, gimme something to work with, Mr. Aspie Internet Tuff Guy.

http://yourargumentisinvalid.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/the_cat_is_pushing_a_watermelon_out_of_a_lake.thum bnail.jpg

[Hatter]

I can't believe he didn't use pepper spray or taze one of them, or draw his baton. Although looking at the video I'm not sure how practical it would have been to draw a weapon.

BTW, I was just informed that many departments have policies that prohibit using tazers and pepper spray on minors, so his options were likely limited.

[Scarbonac]

[snip]

So, I win, then.

I accept your acknowledgment of your failure as a disputant and a human being.

Thank you, you may go now.

[The Winslow]

Scarb, Droid, a room has been freed for you, get into it.

[Trainz]

Scarb, Droid, a room has been freed for you, get into it.

It's been a while we haven't had one of those, right?

And for the record, I had no opinion one way or another on the subject until Freedom Canadian got into it. See, when I'm neutral on a subject, I tend to listen to those who have actual professional experience on it. What he says makes sense, and I know it's not speculation on his part.