Israel thread

[Andreas]

Let me start with this interesting article:

Reporters Dispute Israeli Account of Raid

Updated | 5:02 p.m. On Thursday, Al Jazeera English broadcast an interview with Jamal Elshayyal, one of the channel’s journalists who was on board the Mavi Marmara on Monday when it was intercepted by Israeli commandos enforcing a naval blockade on Gaza.

In his account of the start of the raid, which left nine activists dead and has sparked calls for an independent investigation, Mr. Elshayyal insisted that the Israelis had fired live ammunition at the ship from the air before commandos landed on the boat and said that he had seen someone shot and killed by a bullet that hit the top of his head. He said, in part:

As soon as this attack started, I was on the top deck and within just a few minutes there were live shots being fired from above the ship, from above, from where the helicopters were. [...]

The first shots that were fired were either some sort of sound grenades, there was some tear gas that was fired as well as rubber-coated bullets. They were fired initially and the live bullets came roughly about five minutes after that.


Asked if the shots fired at the ship by the Israeli forces had seemed to come from ships nearby or the helicopters above, Mr. Elshayyal said:

It was evident there was definitely fire from the air, because one of the people who was killed was clearly shot from above — he was shot, the bullet targeted him at the top of his head. There was also fire coming from the sea as well. Most of the fire initially from the sea was tear gas canisters, sound grenades, but then it became live fire. After I finished filing that last report and I was going down below deck one of the passengers who was on the side of the deck holding a water hose — trying to hose off, if you will, the advancing Israeli navy — was shot in his arm by soldiers in the boats below. [...]

There is no doubt from what I saw that live ammunition was fired before any Israeli soldier was on deck. What I saw, the sequence of events that took place, there was a pool camera, so reporters took it in turns to file, so after I had done my first file, I turned around to see what was going on and there were several shots fired. In fact, one of the helicopters at the front of the ship, you could almost see the soldiers pointing their guns down through some sort of hole or compartment at the bottom side of the helicopter and firing almost indiscriminately without even looking where they were firing. And those bullets were definitely live bullets.

Mr. Elshayyal’s account, of course, is only one part of the puzzle, and it will not be accepted easily by people who see his network as biased against Israel. That said, now that the accounts of activists and journalists who were detained by Israel after the raid are starting to be heard, it is clear that their stories and that of the Israeli military do not match in many ways.

On Thursday, Today’s Zaman, an English-language newspaper in Turkey, reported that the president of the Turkish aid group that helped to organize the flotilla said that a photographer working for the group “was shot in the forehead by a soldier one meter away from him.” Bulent Yildirimhe, the president of the aid organization Insani Yardim Vakfi (known in English as the I.H.H.), told the newspaper on Thursday after he returned from Israel: “Our Cevdet [Kiliclar], he is a press member. He has become a martyr. All he was doing was taking pictures. They smashed his skull into pieces.” The newspaper added:

Kevin Ovenden of Britain, an activist on the ship that arrived in İstanbul on Thursday, also said a man who had pointed a camera at the soldiers was shot directly through the forehead with live ammunition, with the exit wound blowing away back of his skull.

In another report, the newspaper said that Israeli officials had confiscated images taken by one of its photographers in the flotilla:

A photojournalist from Today’s Zaman Kursat Bayhan who was on board an international aid convoy for Gaza said he tried to hide a flash disk which included the photos from the moments of Israeli attack on the convoy under his tongue to prevent Israeli authorities from seizing it but his effort failed during a medical examination.

The report added, “Bayhan said the journalists in the ship including him tried to protect the video footage and photos they took,” after the ships were seized by Israeli commandos, but “all the materials of the press members, including their passports and identity cards, were taken away.”

The way these accounts diverge from that of Israel’s military would seem to make an independent investigation into the events crucial. That is particularly true since, as The Lede noted on Wednesday, Israel is apparently in possession of much more video evidence than it has yet released.

In a post making the case that Israel should not conduct that inquiry, Noam Sheizaf, an Israeli journalist and blogger, pointed out that journalists in the flotilla seem to have left Israeli custody without any of the video they shot during the raid that might bolster their accounts.

Israel has confiscated some of the most important material for the investigation, namely the films, audio and photos taken by the passengers [and] journalists on board and the Mavi Marmara’s security cameras. Since yesterday, Israel has been editing these films and using them for its own PR campaign. In other words, Israel has already confiscated most of the evidence, held it from the world and tampered with it. No court in the world would [trust] it to be the one examining it.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/

[Harry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI

[Harry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24

[Andreas]

Yeah, well, call me as soon as they release all the videos (including the ones seized from the reporters on board) and not only carefully chosen 10-20 second clips.

[Harry]

The second one is taken from on board the boat. And the first has been chopped into stills I've seen used to "prove" the activists had their hands up, surrendering.

[Ergeheilalt]

Both Israel and Palestine are being run by douchebags. I'm willing to hazard that 90% of the people there are just looking to make a living, provide for their family, and be happy. The other 10% are racists, politicians, militant assholes, and profit mongering douchenozzles.

Yes, scud missiles being fired into Israel is terrible and inexcusable and must be stopped. But leveling apartment buildings and killing more civilians than terrorists is not going to give you the credibility to claim the moral high ground. And every damn time someone faults Israel for their childish and down right sadistic behavior, it always, ALWAYS comes back to "Well, they're doing terrible things to us. And you don't seem to have a problem with that." Hell, the Israeli general consul at the embassy in SF wrote an editorial from the San Francisco Chronicle than ended with that.

How did our intelligence fail? Maybe we read too many e-mails from Bay Area peace activists. The moral selectivism of the Free Gaza Movement is troublesome. Why are they embracing Hamas - a movement that hates Jews, Christians, secular Muslims and any semblance of liberal values - rather than acting to strengthen the moderate Palestinian leadership? Where will their moral outrage be when a Scud missile shipped into the Gaza Strip lands in the center of Tel Aviv?

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/06/04/EDGF1DPEA5.DTL#ixzz0pzWcQFNx


Israel, listen babe. It's time to stop being a dipstick and start thinking before you act. I know you're a bunch of Jews, but come on. Gandhi professed that whole eye for an eye thing and Jesus preached turning the other cheek. I'm sure, if you look really hard, you can find a similar mantra in your holy book just as valid as your continued national existence in the Middle East.

[Aloysius]

Yes, scud missiles being fired into Israel is terrible and inexcusable



That's a SCUD : http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/scud_b_missile_system.jpg

I don't know who has been dumb enough to says that the flotilla was transporting some (note there has been similar accusations made against the Hezbollah), I just hope there won't be to much dumb people to believe those accusationsare founded... :grey:

[Freedom Canadian]

I don't know who has been dumb enough to says that the flotilla was transporting some (note there has been similar accusations made against the Hezbollah), I just hope there won't be to much dumb people to believe those accusationsare founded... :grey:

The guy in Erge's link is not saying that Hamas has been shooting SCUDs at Israel, nor that the flotilla was carrying them. He was saying that if Israel lifts the maritime embargo altogether (which is what a lot of peace activists are asking for), then there will be nothing preventing Iran from shipping SCUDs to Gaza.

And that would be bad, m'kay ? :)

Personally, I think Israel has every justification to inspect cargoes going into Gaza for weapons. But I also think that they should then let in all shipments not containing weapons.

[Aloysius]

And that would be bad, m'kay ? :)


And that would be impossible. Just look the picture above and a map of Gaza to understand why there will never be any scud in the gaza strip. (Or if there are, they will be destroyed before completion).

Here are the rockets the Palestinians can use : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Rockets-latrun-exhibition-1.jpg/200px-Rockets-latrun-exhibition-1.jpg
Not the same.

Basically, this is exactly as if the Israeli feared the palestinian to be able to build the Death Star if you let steel and plastic enters the Gaza strip.

[Freedom Canadian]

And that would be impossible. Just look the picture above and a map of Gaza to understand why there will never be any scud in the gaza strip. (Or if there are, they will be destroyed before completion).

Let's use "deployment" instead of "completion" because there is no way Scuds would get built in Gaza. The fear expressed by the Israeli consul (and it's a pretty damned far fetched one) is that Iran would deliver Scud launchers and missiles.

There is no doubt that an actual Scud launcher (or MBT or artillery pieces) shipped toGaza would get spotted by satellite recon and destroyed before it could get far from the docks (or before it got close to being assembled if it was shipped in parts). However, it does not mean that 1) Israel would like having to constantly look out for them as every ship docks at Gaza and 2) that even though Scuds are far fetched (and let's face it, pretty drama queenish on the part of the consul), more realistic weapon systems could not be sent to Gaza in massive numbers if there was absolutely no blockade.

I'm sorry, but weapon inspections are still required, stupid Scud scenario or not.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

I'd love to see an all out battle between the Israelis and their enemies in the region. Maybe they'll all kill each other and we'll be done with their stupidity. You can't trust any of the fuckers. The Israelis and the Palestinians have no moral ground to stand on anymore. They're all fucked in the head, they're all murderers, and the only thing they've given the world during the past 50 years is a lesson in terror, opression, and inhumanity.

[Name Lips]

Both Israel and Palestine are being run by douchebags.

You can't trust any of the fuckers.

Yeah.


Part of the problem is that nobody wants to acknowledge officially that what's been going on in Israel/Palestine has been, and will always be, a religious war. The fanatics on both sides view the opposing religion as evil and worthy of extermination. Literal extermination. Snuffed out forever.

Jews in the illegal settlements, when interviewed, are not shy about their mission. They say outright that they are on a mission from God, spreading sparks of light in the darkness, bringing good and truth to lands that are ruled by evil.

The Palestinian extremists are not shy about explaining that their goal is to drive every last Jew into the sea, wiping them clean from their land, and reclaiming it in the name of Allah.

Every official negotiation and peace talk completely ignores this. You can't use dry, secular politics to stop religious extremists. They follow what they believe to be a higher authority and will not stop just become some earthly politician told them to.

[Andreas]

Well, we should allocate all Israeli to Arizona and all Palestinians to Madagascar.

Then resettle the Area with Tibetans (to please the Chinese).
Also, they have no quarrel in any local religion, so they could watch over the holy sites and manage to stay neutral.

That should make everyone calm down and be happy.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

Actually, we should have given Germany to the Zionists following WWII.

[Aloysius]

Actually, we should have given Germany to the Zionists following WWII.
They would have refused it. They had already refused proposition in Argentina and Kenya, IIRC. It was Jerusalem and nothing else.

By the way, religion or not, I'm sure a real peace process would work, if it were tried. But since the assassination of Rabin, nothing has been done in this direction, mostly because of the settlers (and their supporters) and the Hamas.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

They would have refused it. They had already refused proposition in Argentina and Kenya, IIRC. It was Jerusalem and nothing else.


Oh, I know. All of which is absurd, of course.

[Harry]

I get sick of arguing about this topic in real life. My friends on the left and on the right rag on Israel, and I seem to be the only rabid pro-Israeli whenever I speak up so, I'll just leave it at this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/greylock/Stei100602.gif

Oh, and Helen Thomas, I respect the hell out of you as a journalist, but it's past time to shut your tabbouleh-hole....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kx8t6uW9Nk

[Hatter]

I get sick of arguing about this topic in real life. My friends on the left and on the right rag on Israel, and I seem to be the only rabid pro-Israeli whenever I speak up so, I'll just leave it at this:

That cartoon parallels Israel with a number of brutal governments and it's supposed to support your position? Did I miss something where the West condoned atrocities for everyone except Israel?

[Name Lips]

The comic doesn't make it's own point very well.

The point is -- or should be -- that most liberals seem to ignore atrocities committed by the "underdog" of any given conflict. So they bash China, and ignore Tibetan transgressions. They villianize Israel, but pay little attention to Palestinian fanatics. They hate the Spanish Conquistadors, but conveniently forget the horrors perpetuated by the Aztec civilization. And so on.

When pressed they'll say that of course atrocities are equally bad no matter who does them, but they're very willing to forgive smaller, less powerful groups that appear to be defending themselves against a larger, more powerful aggressor.

Israel doesn't really have a leg to stand on. They're a theocratic apartheid democracy. But the Palestinians aren't any better. They'd both cut each others' throat if they got the chance.

[Harry]

Israel doesn't really have a leg to stand on. They're a theocratic apartheid democracy. But the Palestinians aren't any better. They'd both cut each others' throat if they got the chance.

from The Threat and the Strength

Benjamin Netanyahu Address to the Knesset

14 August, 2006: Ceasefire in Lebanon


....In 2000 we withdrew from Lebanon without any guarantees or security agreements. In Hezbollah's eyes, Israel was fleeing Hezbollah terror. This prompted Nasralla's "cobwebs" speech about Israel's weakness, which reverberated with Hamas and triggered the second Intifada. The result of this second Intifada led to a second Israeli unilateral withdrawal, and Israel was again perceived as fleeing before terror. This Hamas success in turn reverberated back to Hezbollah, and so on.

Unilateral withdrawals not only eroded our deterrence, they also gave our enemies improved positions from which to shell and rocket our cities and towns. The concept of unilateral withdrawal has vanished, and if it hasn’t – it should!

My second point: The root cause of the conflict has been finally exposed. This is not a conflict about a particular piece of land. We withdrew from every inch of Lebanon, yet we were attacked. We withdrew from every inch of the Gaza district, yet we were attacked. Our enemies tell us that even if we give up every last inch of Judea and Samaria and return to the pre-1967 borders, this would make no difference to them. As Nasrallah said: “We launch our missiles at the enemy’s occupied settlements”, i.e., Tiberias, Safed, Acre, Haifa - all in pre-1967 Israel. At its core, this is a conflict about Israel’s very existence, whatever our borders may be.

Here is a simple truth: If our enemies lay down their arms, there will be no more war. But if Israel lays down its arms, there will be no more Israel. For the crux of the conflict is their desire to destroy us.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

I don't know why the US continues to support Israel, or any of the other states in the region. I know we use the oil, but Israel is a destabilizing influence, not a stabilizing one. I know the Arabs will hate us no matter what, but the hypocracy of supporting Israel must stop if America is ever to have any real credibility as a supporter of freedom and democracy.

[DarwinOfMind]

Every time I've said what you just said to any of my friends or family the responce I get is, "The Jews are God's Chosen people we have to be on their side to be in with God."

[Harry]

I don't know why the US continues to support Israel, or any of the other states in the region. I know we use the oil, but Israel is a destabilizing influence, not a stabilizing one. I know the Arabs will hate us no matter what, but the hypocracy of supporting Israel must stop if America is ever to have any real credibility as a supporter of freedom and democracy.

What would you do with the people of Israel?

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

Every time I've said what you just said to any of my friends or family the responce I get is, "The Jews are God's Chosen people we have to be on their side to be in with God."

To which I would reply, "Where was God during the Holocaust?"

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

What would you do with the people of Israel?

Now? Nothing. They're already there, as are the Palestinians. We don't have the ability to change what happened, but we can change how we conduct ourselves now. I don't think we should oppose Israel, just not support it. Let them support themselves.

[Ancalagon]

I would just like to say that only a neutral party has any credibility to conduct an investigation on this bloody incident.

If somehow I had some kind of divine knowledge that proved to me that Israel had (in the near future I mean) conducted a 100% fair investigation, I still would call for an independent investigation. It's the only way to get a *credible* answer, as in something that most parties can reasonably agree to believe in.

Now, let's look at this differently - by replacing the actors with others who we dont' care about so much, ie remove the emotions from the debate.

Let's say that the Israelis are RCMP (canadian police officer) and that the passengers are a group of people that the police characterizes as a gang. The RCMP is doing a raid in a house they believe drugs may be hidden in. The gang claims that it's actually medicinal marijuana and they are trying to run a compassionate marijuana club for people who are in dire need and in terrible pain. It is known that several of their clients are indeed people with bad chronic illnesses. It is unclear however if all their clients are legit. It's debatable if the raid should have occurred - but let's skip that (this is the "prelude").

So, during the raid, a bunch of gang members started hitting police officers with clubs, metal rods etc. I think no one would blame the police officers for opening fire on the group! (this is the narrow focus)

But what if I told you the group was made of Americans, and the house was in America? That the RCMP had no jurisdiction to operate there, and was not asked or given permission to do the raid by USA authorities? (this is the broader picture).

So while to me it seems that Israel could be justified in a narrow focus point of view, they have violated international law and committed an act of piracy, in which civilians have died.

[Aloysius]

....In 2000 we withdrew from Lebanon without any guarantees or security agreements. In Hezbollah's eyes, Israel was fleeing Hezbollah terror. This prompted Nasralla's "cobwebs" speech about Israel's weakness, which reverberated with Hamas and triggered the second Intifada. The result of this second Intifada led to a second Israeli unilateral withdrawal, and Israel was again perceived as fleeing before terror. This Hamas success in turn reverberated back to Hezbollah, and so on.

Fact is, the second intifada started after scores of protesters were shoot dead by Tsahal during a demonstration. If you are looking for the real cause, it had nothing to do with Lebanon, and much, much more with the desesperation of the Palestinians, who saw that the "peace against territories" deal was in fact "we will take you even more territories and we will have peace and security". Since the first election of Netanyahu (and probably since the assassination of Rabin by the far-right now in power), Israel has kept none of its engagements, while always adding more demands. And the colony have grown at an astounding rate (with the obvious consequences : more spoliation, more check point, less water, more houses and fields destroyed by the bulldozers etc.).

On top of this, the two unilateral withdrawals have been designed to weaken the moderate and enforce the extremists. Israel refused to negotiate and coordinate its withdrawals with the Lebanese government or the Palestinian authority, leading to a loss of credit for those two organization and a boost to Hamas and Hizbollah. As often said, it was not a bug but a feature, because the existence of strong extremists movements among their enemies is necessary to the Israeli diplomacy. As soon as the Palestinians start to use non-violent means, they will be far more dangerous. This is why there has been so much anger and threats against both the flotilla and the AP boycott of colony-factored goods. A violent but utterly weak adversary is a comfortable one, because you can crush it with ease and impunity each time you want. If they start to be non-violent, you can still crush them with ease, but total impunity is no more a given.

[Freedom Canadian]

But what if I told you the group was made of Americans, and the house was in America? That the RCMP had no jurisdiction to operate there, and was not asked or given permission to do the raid by USA authorities? (this is the broader picture).

So while to me it seems that Israel could be justified in a narrow focus point of view, they have violated international law and committed an act of piracy, in which civilians have died.

The RCMP doesn't have jurisdiction in the USA. But the canadian navy is totally allowed to stop and search vessels in international water if it has reason to believe it is bound for Canada and might be carrying contraband.

Not that I'm defending the way the raid was conducted.

[Andreas]

So, better not show any weakness, no?

Israeli raid tests ceasefire

August 20, 2006 - 1:30PM

Israel and Lebanon accused each another of violating their UN-brokered truce after Israel staged a commando raid deep inside Lebanon, in the first serious violence since the ceasefire came into force.

Israel said the raid was to prevent cross-border arms smuggling from Syria and Iran to Hezbollah, while Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora blasted the operation as a "blatant violation" of the truce, which began on Monday.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israel-violates-lebanon-ceasefire/2006/08/20/1156012396899.html

[tleilaxu]

I know the Arabs will hate us no matter what.

explain please

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

explain please

Fundamentally different cultures. Remove Israel from the picture and the US is still the favored scapegoat for all the ills in the Middle East.

[Name Lips]

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/05/lost-tribe.html


Lost Tribe
Are Israel’s battles costing the country its soul?

I am in love with Israel. Yet the events off the shores of Gaza last week, in which Israeli commandos stormed a blockade-busting aid ship and killed nine activists, were a painful reminder that I also belong to a class of Israelis that is deeply concerned about the direction of our country. Increasingly, our conflict with the Palestinians is separating us, not only from our moral faculties, but also from the rest of our senses.

The patterns are clear: more people are getting killed in shorter periods of time, and we care less and less. According to Israeli data, it took 22 days for the Palestinian death toll to hit 1,100 in the last big round of violence between “us” and “them,” the 2008–09 Gaza incursion. The same number of casualties accumulated over a full five years in the first Palestinian uprising (1987–93), which was then the largest Israeli-Palestinian clash since 1949. Over time, our hearts have grown harder. In the first intifada, Israeli military police launched internal investigations whenever Palestinians were killed by Israeli fire. Yet there have only been a handful of such investigations during the last decade, and none is likely to take place over last week’s killings.

Israel’s almost complete lack of empathy for the “other” has not always been the case. In a noted 1923 article, Ze’ev Jabotinsky, the founding father of Israel’s hardline revisionists, effectively acknowledged the logic of Palestinian resistance to Zionism. He wrote that the Arabs, like every other indigenous people, “view their country as their national home…and will not willingly agree to new landlords.” Sixty-three years later, in a similar vein, Ehud Barak admitted that if he’d been born a Palestinian, he would have joined “one of the terrorist organizations.” Yet no contemporary Israeli leader, Barak included, would dare to show similar understanding of the Palestinian plight today.

This hardening of the heart is not limited to our leaders. They, after all, merely reflect popular attitudes. In September 1982, after Christian militiamen slaughtered hundreds of Palestinian civilians in Lebanon’s Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, 10 percent of Israel’s total population took to the streets of Tel Aviv to protest Israel’s indirect responsibility. Only a few dozen Israelis demonstrated 26 years later, when the Israeli military was directly responsible for a similarly large number of Palestinian civilian casualties in the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.

It is not only the spread of moral insensitivity I fear. As Dean Acheson observed, there’s something worse than immoral policy: erroneous policy. The apparent inability of Israeli leaders to connect our goals and our means puts the country in long-term jeopardy. Our most profound problem is that 130 years after young Zionists began immigrating to Palestine with the hope of creating a safe place for Jews, we’re still relying on force to secure our existence. Ironically, more Jews have been killed since 1945 in this “safe haven” than in any other place. A future Iranian nuclear device, which may be hard to stop if Israel can’t muster international support more effectively, will take this Zionist failure to new lows.

Actions like the killings aboard the Gaza aid ship do nothing to ameliorate this situation; they only create new sources of resistance. The blockade that brought about the flotilla is dehumanizing, barely justified on security grounds. It is imposed against the same people who hold the key to our legitimacy, at least in the eyes of the millions of Arabs who surround us. The killing of several Turks deeply corrodes Israel’s relationship with Istanbul, the only capital in the region that did not wait for Palestinian approval to engage in a meaningful relationship with the Jewish state. Wide international condemnation has already slowed efforts at the United Nations to tighten sanctions on Iran. How long can our modern-day Sparta live by its sword, when the sword creates new difficulties?

The emotional burden of these and other contradictions is shared by many. “Most Israelis, myself included, love this country, are proud in its achievements, and want to live in it. Many are ready to risk their lives defending it,” Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Amos Lapidot, former commanding officer of Israel’s venerated Air Force, wrote on April 19 in Haaretz newspaper. “And yet, recently there is a growing feeling that something basic went wrong…can the state of Israel as it looks today survive for years to come?” Others feel tension between tribal loyalty and notions of universal justice. Activist Udi Aloni wrote on June 1 for the online paper YNET that he almost boarded a “ship that brought food and hope to Gaza,” but decided against it in order to avoid “clashing with the servicemen from the military branch I served faithfully thirty years ago.”

I, too, have my loyalties. I have wonderful teenage memories with someone I’ll call H, who now commands a Special Forces unit. His unit was probably deployed in the Gaza operation, though it was not involved in the killings. But the unit was accused by human-rights groups of being involved in extrajudicial killings in the West Bank earlier this decade. With our joint history, I feel as if H and I were cut from the same cloth. The thought that some may perceive him and his men as war criminals is extremely hard to accept.

And so I have chosen, for now, the coward’s way. I drag out my studies far away from home in order to avoid adjudication between my heart and my mind. The only prescription I have, at least until I head back home, is a very personal one. I seek to change my approach to the conflict with the Palestinians. I think now that we must break through the language of strategic calculations and allow basic human decency to shape our positions. Some of my friends back home may think I’m regressing from our past understanding that we need to deal with the Mideast as it is—hard, brutish, and dangerous—to a more naive approach. But I do not think it’s naive. I think it’s the only way left.

Eiran is a major in the IDF reserves and worked for Israel’s attorney general and on Prime Minister Barak’s foreign-policy team. His book The Essence of Longing: General Erez Gerstein and the War in Lebanon was published in Israel in 2007. He is currently a research fellow at Harvard’s Kennedy School.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

I think this incident went as follows (and yes, this is just an opinion):

1. Israel institutes blockade after repeated rocket attacks from Gaza.
2. Israel allows aid to flow from Gaza through Israeli ports, after inspection.
3. Flotilla is organized to break the blockade.
4. Israel enforces blockade.
5. A fight breaks out between Israeli's with guns and people with hand held weapons.
6. Israel subdues boat to find out there's nothing onboard except aid.
7. People pointing fingers over who started fight.

None of this shit fucking matters. This conflict can be taken back and forth by degrees for as long as you'd like to take it. At some point you have to throw up your hands and accept that neither of these peoples want peace, they want VICTORY.

[Aloysius]

1. Israel institutes blockade after Hamas win election and then take power in Gaza.
2. Israel allows aid to flow from Gaza through Israeli ports, after inspection.
2bis. Nearly everything but the most basic aid is barred from entering Gaza. No chocolate, no cement etc..
3. Flotilla is organized to break the blockade.
4. Israel enforces blockade.
5. A fight breaks out between Israeli's with guns and people with hand held weapons.
6. Israel subdues boat to find out there's nothing onboard except aid.
7. People pointing fingers over who started fight.

Of course, this is still absurd if you don't consider the suit of events since at least 1993, and more probably 1967 or 1949. As for the two camps wanting only victory, this assumes that there is only two camps. This is exactly what the extremists from both sides want everyone to believe.

[Andreas]

The Israeli blockade has been in place since June of 2007, restricting access of the 1.5 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip to goods, energy sources, and building material. Though Amnesty International has described the Gaza blockade as being "Collective Punishment" due to the "arbitrary" nature of the blockaded items, the Israelis have considered the blockade of certain goods necessary for their own protection, to keep Hamas, who wield political power in Gaza, from destroying them. Until recently, exactly WHICH items to be allowed in, however, has been a matter of secrecy.

But this year, an Israeli Human Rights Group, GISHA, brought a court case questioning whether the blockade serves to protect Israel or merely to collectively punish Palestinians. Using Freedom Of Information legislation, GISHA procured the LIST of ALLOWED items. And now, drum roll please, the list of items allowed in:

1. Wheat (only since 1st half 2009).
2. Animal Feed (only since 1st half 2009).
3. Flour (only since 1st half 2009).
4. Cooking Oil (only since 1st half 2009).
5. Cooking Fat (only since 1st half 2009).
6. Sugar (only since 1st half 2009).
7. Salt (only since 1st half 2009).
8. Pasta (only since 1st half 2009).
9. Dates (only since 1st half 2009).
10. Garlic (only since 1st half 2009).
11. Chick peas (only since 1st half 2009).
12. Rice (only since 1st half 2009).
13. Beans (only since 1st half 2009).
14. Lentils (only since 1st half 2009).
15. Kidney Beans (only since 1st half 2009).
16. Margarine (only since 1st half 2009).
17. Dairy Products (only since 1st half 2009).
18. Powdered Milk (only since 1st half 2009).
19. Frozen Meat & Fish (only since 1st half 2009).
20. Frozen Vegetables (only since 1st half 2009).
21. Animal Medicines (only since 1st half 2009).
22. Gas for Medical Use (only since 1st half 2009).
23. Empty Bags For Flour (only since 1st half 2009).
24. Medicines And Medical Equipment (only since 1st half 2009).
25. Female Hygiene Products (only since 1st half 2009).
26. Nappies/Diapers (only since 1st half 2009).
27. Toilet Paper (only since 1st half 2009).
28. Detergent (only since 1st half 2009).
29. Washing Liquid (only since 1st half 2009).
30. Shampoo (only since 1st half 2009).
31. Soap (only since 1st half 2009).
32. Toothpaste (only since 1st half 2009).
33. Toothbrushes (only since 1st half 2009).
34. Cleaning Products For Tile (only since 1st half 2009).
35. Cleaning Products For Glass (only since 1st half 2009).
36. Toilet-Cleaner (only since 1st half 2009).
37. Yeast (only since 1st half 2009).
38. Fertilized Eggs (only since 1st half 2009).
39. Fruit (only since 1st half 2009).
40. Semolina (only since 1st half 2009).
41. Polythene For Greenhouses (June 2009).
42. Agricultural Materials (June 2009).
43. Tea (October 2009).
44. Coffee (October 2009).
45. Instant Coffee (November 2009).
46. Canned Tuna (November 2009).
47. Salami (November 2009).
48. Canned Meat (November 2009).
49. Washing-Up Sponges (November 2009).
50. Bath Sponges (November 2009).
51. Cloths For Mopping The Floor (November 2009).
52. Baby Wipes (November 2009).
53. Other Canned Goods With The Exception Of Fruit (November 2009).
54. Zaater (dried herb mix) (November 2009).
55. Sesame Seeds (November 2009).
56. Black Pepper (November 2009).
57. Chicken Stock Powder (November 2009).
58. Blankets (November 2009).
59. Olives (December 2009).
60. Matches (December 2009).
61. Candles (December 2009).
62. Sticks For Brooms (December 2009).
63. Rubbish Bins (December 2009).
64. Mops (December 2009).
65. Hand-cleansing Gel (December 2009).
66. Aniseed (December 2009).
67. Cinnamon (December 2009).
68. Camomile (December 2009).
69. Unfertilised Eggs (December 2009).
70. Glass (to a max of 200 trucks) (December 2009).
71. Water-dispensers (December 2009).
72. Potatoes (December 2009).
73. Mineral Water (February 2010).
74. Tahini (sesame paste) (March 2010).
75. Combs (March 2010).
76. Hair Brushes (March 2010).
77. Clothes (March 2010).
78. Shoes (since March 2010).
79. Wood (for doorposts and window frames) (since April 2010).
80. Aluminum (since April 2010).
81. Kitchenware (since April 2010).



Sources:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_05_10_gazaimports.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8654337.stm

[Aloysius]

So, no computer, no radio, no electric cable, no rope, no books, no D&D, no beer (wait, what ? :p), no motorcycle, no gas, no livestock, no canned fruits, no pen, no paper, no steel and so on, and so on...
Looks like the goal of the blockade is to create a generation of an-alphabets brainwashed by the Hamas because there is nothing else to do than listen to them. Think about it : TV + PS 3 + internet would cause the end of the islamists domination. They can't fight against porn + GTA + google.

[tleilaxu]

Fundamentally different cultures. Remove Israel from the picture and the US is still the favored scapegoat for all the ills in the Middle East.

on what basis do you think that? i suppose there is some sort of evidence for middle eastern anti-americanism prior to the establishment of israel?

i think if you will look into it you will find that is not the case. and i am no longer convinced these 'fundamental differences' which demand inherent hostility are really there.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

The blockade was instituted in 2006 in response to the Hamas kidnapping of an Israeli soldier. The soldier is still in captivity.

[Name Lips]

Did they kidnap him because they hated "the west" or because they hated Israel?

Frankly, from the rhetoric I've heard, the Islamists don't hate America because of our freedom or immorality or wealth or power... they hate us because we meddle in their affairs. They hate that we helped set up Israel. They hate that we continue to support Israel. They hate that we're better at business and economics, and so when we move businesses in we make ourselves richer and them poorer. They hate that every time there's some sort of war or political dispute in their corner of the world, we stick our noses in to defend our interests, and they always have to go along with what we say because we have bigger guns. They just want us to go away and leave them alone.

While still selling us oil, of course.

[The Winslow]

on what basis do you think that? i suppose there is some sort of evidence for middle eastern anti-americanism prior to the establishment of israel?

What really got their goat was the whole 1953 Iran fiasco (congratulations for giving the Muslim world a solid precedent to believe every conspiracy theory ever imagined about the USA, no matter how ludicrous) and, more recently, the setting up of military bases in Saudi Arabia, which they see as both colonialist and blasphemous. Support for Israel comes in third place, it's just tacked on to the List of Reasons to Hate America because it just begs to be added to that list, but it's not important. The focus of Israel-related hatred in the Middle East is, evidently, Israel itself.

[tleilaxu]

What really got their goat was the whole 1953 Iran fiasco (congratulations for giving the Muslim world a solid precedent to believe every conspiracy theory ever imagined about the USA, no matter how ludicrous) and, more recently, the setting up of military bases in Saudi Arabia, which they see as both colonialist and blasphemous. Support for Israel comes in third place, it's just tacked on to the List of Reasons to Hate America because it just begs to be added to that list, but it's not important. The focus of Israel-related hatred in the Middle East is, evidently, Israel itself.

afaict most anti-americanism (not limited to the middle east) is a result of "tallest tree attracts the axe" (ie resentment)

coming in second is the admitedly shitty things the US gov't has done (mostly during the cold war, though we haven't comported ourselves particularly well since).

i also think we permit israel to act in a bad way. to give your country credit: as france to america during the lead up to iraq war, so america should be to israel. sometimes a real friend has to at least try to take away the keys.

as for bases in saudi arabia, shit, i think that is crap explanation. we don't have anyone stationed in mecca or medina. saudi arabia was created by GB via TE Lawrence. the fact we have troops in north SA, how can this be such a violation? doesn't make sense to me. and shit, most of the anti-americanism is from 20-year olds who couldn't place iran geographically nor 1953 temporally, so i can't take that as a serious cause of anything either.

what it comes down to me is both american and arab elites are making mint off ginning up the two populations, telling 'em they're some sort of intrinsic enemies while they stick it up our keysters (not gently).

[The Winslow]

as for bases in saudi arabia, shit, i think that is crap explanation.

Crap as it may be, it's what motivated OBL to start his anti-American crusade.

[tleilaxu]

Crap as it may be, it's what motivated OBL to start his anti-American crusade.

he represents arabs about as much as tim mcveigh represents caucasians.

and that's the problem. how does a conversation about the issues between arabs and the US become about him? isn't that his desired end?

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

Even with Obama as president the US has a favorability rating in the Middle East of around 30%. Which is better than it was with Bush, but still abysmal. I agree with tleilaxu and Winslow; the bulk of the resentment comes from a trifecta of being 1. the tallest tree, 2. meddling in their affairs, and 3. Israel. I personally think the first two far outstrip the third, and that's why I think it won't matter much to improve our standing even if we stop propping up Israel. But it's really a moot point anyway, as I don't see any US president ditching that relationship.

[The Winslow]

he represents arabs about as much as tim mcveigh represents caucasians.

Except he's been a lot more influential that McVeigh. McVeigh was not considered a mujahideen war hero for his participation to a struggle against Soviet military presence in Afghanistan, he was not an agitator militating for pan-arabism in several Arab countries, and he was not a leader and figurehead in an international terrorist organization.

Sure, he doesn't represent all Arabs, but don't underestimate his influence or the spread of the reasons for his anti-Americanism.

[Aloysius]

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/1338-2.gif
In muslim countries, Bin Laden popularity often rank between 20-30%, with 50% or more in the Palestinian territories and Nigeria (not a surprise, given the context).
Note that he is the more unpopular in Lebanon and Turkey, which are the most secular muslim countries of the list.
His high score (while declining) in Indonesia is frightening, because this country has been victim of terrorism, has no regional enemy like Pakistan and has many religious minority who have been targeted by islamic criminals in the past. Oh, and Indonesia is still the N°1 muslim country in the world. That's 60 millions of peoples in Indonesia alone who like Bin laden and agree with his goals.

[Trainz]

I don't know much about that region, so I have a few questions...

Why doesn't Palestine use the Palestine/Jordan and the Palestine/Egypt borders to import stuff?

[Name Lips]

I heard the Gaza-Egypt border was closed. Then I heard at some point a few years ago it opened. But it can't be fully open or there would be no need for the smuggling network.

As for Jordan, Palastine is divided. The West Bank borders Jordan. But it isn't the focus of the blockade because Hamas doesn't rule there. I don't know the policies between Israel and the West Bank, but they haven't been in the news recently. It's all about Gaza.

[Varaj]

I don't know much about that region, so I have a few questions...

Why doesn't Palestine use the Palestine/Jordan and the Palestine/Egypt borders to import stuff?

Mainly because it is the best interest in those countries to keep Palestine in a state of conflict.

[Trainz]

Mainly because it is the best interest in those countries to keep Palestine in a state of conflict.

Ok, that's a douche move.

Why don't the Palestinians throw rockets at them too while they're at it, they are as guilty as Israel for their conditions of living...

[Harry]

Egypt dislikes the Palestinians for many of the same reasons Israel does, and sees it as a hotbed of radicalism and discontent.

What's funny is how people react to Egypt building walls:

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas declared support for the barrier, adding: "It is the Egyptians’ sovereign right in their own country. Legitimate supplies should be brought through the legal crossings."[5]

Ok, that's a douche move.

Why don't the Palestinians throw rockets at them too while they're at it, they are as guilty as Israel for their conditions of living...

In a Palestinian demonstration along the border, an Egyptian border guard was shot dead and 20 Palestinians were injured from Egyptian fire.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt_%E2%80%93_Gaza_subterranean_barrier

[Varaj]

Ok, that's a douche move.

Why don't the Palestinians throw rockets at them too while they're at it, they are as guilty as Israel for their conditions of living...

That would be a long discussion on difference in culture and circles of identity. :)

[Dacke]

What's funny is how people react to Egypt building walls:
The main problems I have with Israel's walls against the West Bank and Gaza are that they're:



Built on Palestine territory, meaning Israel is stealing Palestine land to build their walls.
Built to encompass illegal settlements, such as eastern Jerusalem.

If Israel built a wall on their side of the 1967 border, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Aloysius]

Built on Palestine territory, meaning Israel is stealing Palestine land to build their walls.
Built to encompass illegal settlements, such as eastern Jerusalem.

Built to cut a great number of palestian villages from their ancestral fields, so that the villagers are forced into exil or poverty and Israeli settlers can steal the land one way or another, while having a reservoir of cheap, submitted workforce.


Added for you

[Dacke]

Ah yes, that too.

[tleilaxu]

i have a question for you dacke. what standing do you have to 'have a problem' with what goes on there? why have an opinion at all? what does it have to do with you? and why should anyone care what some swede (or some american for that matter) thinks about it?

[Harry]

If Israel built a wall on their side of the 1967 border, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

If the Arabs had stayed on their side of the 1967 border, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

hth

[Freedom Canadian]

If the Arabs had stayed on their side of the 1967 border, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

hth

Ah, yes, eternal and just punishment for the crimes of your ancestors. How righteous !

[The Winslow]

If the Brits didn't give that land to Zionists, there would not have been a question of side and border.
If the Germans did not genocide the Jews, the Brits would not have given that land to the Zionists.
If prehistoric forests didn't turn into coal all over Europe, Germany would not have had the resources to develop a powerful war machine and WW2 with its associated genocide would not have happened.

So we can shift the blame to the trees if we want to look at the past rather than look at what can be done in the present.

[Harry]

Ah, yes, eternal and just punishment for the crimes of your ancestors. How righteous !

That was kind of my point. But I think it's insane to expect Israel to give back land that will have to be taken by blood again. Unless there is some guarantee that there will be peace. And unfortunately, too often the extremists and dictators take an all-or-nothing approach. Utter destruction of Israel or nothing. So Israel would be nuts to give back some of the lands.

Large parts of the West Bank - I think it's fair to return them. But the whole West Bank? Nuts to that.

[Hatter]

I used to think that peace were possible, but now I think both sides have too many people who will stop at no less than the extermination of the other, and then add to that the politicians in numerous countries who capitalize on the conflict to further their own agenda and peace becomes unlikely.

[The Winslow]

both sides have too many people who will stop at no less than the extermination of the other
And more than that, too many people who maintain their position of power through a carefully cultivated scapegoat that they have absolutely no intention of ever removing...

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

I agree, it's hopeless.

[Name Lips]

It wouldn't be hopeless if the US would grow some teeth. We give both Israel and Palestine the kid-gloves treatment because we're afraid of alienating their associated religions.

[Dacke]

i have a question for you dacke. what standing do you have to 'have a problem' with what goes on there? why have an opinion at all? what does it have to do with you? and why should anyone care what some swede (or some american for that matter) thinks about it?
None, to be honest. I'm just a concerned citizen of the world. I call Israel on their bullshit, just like I call all sorts of foreign politicians on theirs. I don't imagine for a second that they're listening to me, though.

[Dacke]

If the Arabs had stayed on their side of the 1967 border, we wouldn't be having this discussion
Israel was the aggressor in 1967, although it can pretty much be considered a pre-emptive strike.

And the pre-1967 borders are already vastly larger than Israel's original territory.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

It wouldn't be hopeless if the US would grow some teeth. We give both Israel and Palestine the kid-gloves treatment because we're afraid of alienating their associated religions.

No. No. FUCK NO. This is not the fault of the US or anybody else. Nobody can solve this problem except for the Israelis and the Palestinians.

[Dacke]

No. No. FUCK NO. This is not the fault of the US or anybody else. Nobody can solve this problem except for the Israelis and the Palestinians.
It certainly isn't helping the situation that the US is sending approximately $3 billion per year in military aid to Israel - 25% of which they can spend domestically, unlike other military aid packages which has to be spent on US products. That's about 1/5 of their entire military budget.

[tleilaxu]

It certainly isn't helping the situation that the US is sending approximately $3 billion per year in military aid to Israel - 25% of which they can spend domestically, unlike other military aid packages which has to be spent on US products. That's about 1/5 of their entire military budget.

next (devil's advocate) question: why should we americans care what israel does with its weapons? israel is #1 recipient of US military aid. egypt is #2. it is because of this they haven't gone to war. did we do this because we are nice people? no we did it because (among other reasons) we want to keep the suez canal open and functioning. why should we sacrifice our national interests for palestinians? what do palestinians have that we want? are they going to be trade partners with us, allies in regional struggles? are they going to vote with us in the bullshit useless UN? answers: nothing, no, no, no. the purpose of a national government is to represent the interests of its citizens vie-a-vie other national gov't doing the same thing, not to be nice and solve other people's problems. so, fuck em, why should we care?

[Harry]

It certainly isn't helping the situation that the US is sending approximately $3 billion per year in military aid to Israel - 25% of which they can spend domestically, unlike other military aid packages which has to be spent on US products. That's about 1/5 of their entire military budget.

Since you are tossing about percentages, I feel like pointing out one myself. Did you know that over 10% of the members of the Knesset are Arabs? Did you know that in the most modern-focused of the Near East countries, Lebanon, Jews aren't even allowed to participate in politics?

[Freedom Canadian]

Did you know that over 10% of the members of the Knesset are Arabs?

Did you know that 0% of them are palestinians ?

[Aloysius]

standard story from Israel : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/8375115/Ukraine-police-search-for-abducted-Palestinian.html

Abduct random guy in a random country, jail him in secret in Israel. His crime ? Being the manager of an electric plant in Gaza. Last time I heard a similar story, the guy (an iranian engineer) ended assassinated in some unknow israeli jail (gag orders where used by the army, too). Israel looks more and more like a strange mix of apartheid-era South Africa, corruption ridden Lebanon and terrorist-happy Syria.
But why sould they change for a more democratic and lawful behaviour ? The West gives them free pass to everything they do.

[Harry]

I love this bit from NPR today, because I can imagine where this ends up in the hands of the folks who blame everything on Israel:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141836270

Saudi Royal Offers Bounty To Catch Israeli Soldier


RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) — A member of Saudi Arabia's royal family increased to $1 million a reward offered by a Saudi cleric to anyone who captures an Israeli soldier to swap him for Palestinian prisoners.

Prince Khaled bin Talal, brother of billionaire Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, told the kingdom's al-Daleel TV station by telephone Saturday that he was raising a previous offer made by Sheik Awadh al-Qarani, a prominent Saudi cleric who promised $100,000 for capturing an Israeli soldier.

"I tell Sheik al-Qarani that I support you and I will pay $900,000 to make it one million dollars to capture an Israeli soldier to release other prisoners," said a voice identified as Prince Khaled, who holds no official position in the government.

The Saudi offers follow in the wake of the release of Israeli soldier Sgt. Gilad Schalit, who was held by Hamas in Gaza for more than five years. Israel has agreed to free over 1,000 prisoners in exchange.

Prince Khaled said he made the offer in response to what he said were Israeli threats against Qarani's life. He did not provide any further details.

In Israel, extremists have offered two rewards of $100,000 to anyone who kills a Palestinian released in the Schalit deal if the Palestinian killed Israelis.

Extremist settler activist Baruch Marzel said he was familiar with the bounties and that there were a number of bereaved Israeli families who were looking to "settle the score" with the killers.

So Israel releases a ton of Palestinians [who were generally not very good people], for the trade of one lowly Israeli soldier. Now a Saudi cleric and a Saudi prince offer a reward for anyone who captures another Israeli soldier to trade for Palestinian "soldiers". And some Israeli extremists now say fine, go ahead, we'll just shoot the released Palestinians.

This will go down as an example of radical Israeli thuggery, regardless of what happens in the end, if most of the anti-Israelis get their hands on the story.

[The Winslow]

If extremists clamoring for shooting prisoners as they are released isn't an example of radical thuggery, what is it?


I mean, switch the sides around and have it Palestinian dudes threatening to shoot down illegal settlers if they were to be released. Would you be defending them by arguing that only anti-Palestinians would consider that thuggery?

[Radu]

So Israel releases a ton of Palestinians [who were generally not very good people]...

This will go down as an example of radical Israeli thuggery, regardless of what happens in the end, if most of the anti-Israelis get their hands on the story.

Harry, your bias is showing again! We're all friends here, but you might want to zip up if you go out in public.

Not every criticism of Israel is or should be construed as anti-Israeli sentiment. Just as not every critic of President Obama is a bigot, not every critic is an anti-Semite with a grudge.

Shooting prisoners after they are released IS an act of cowardly thuggery, NO MATTER WHO does it. The fact that it's the "fringe" elements (or "extremist" if you prefer) who are discussing this doesn't comfort me much, because I think that in many respects the fringe can influence policy, if not directly set it. If such an "exchange" actually went down and Israeli soldiers started disappearing, that would be bad. I would condemn those responsible for kidnapping them (and NOT all Palestinians, even if they are "generally not very good people"). If some Israeli's started shooting released prisoners, I would condemn them as well (and NOT the entire nation of Israel).

[AZRogue]

I think it's extremely slimy and shitty of the Saudi's to offer a reward for the capture of an Israeli soldier. That's just fucked up.

Also, I really hope that the threat made by Israel is a bluff, which it very well could be, because it would not earn them any sympathy and would be an escalation and end up hurting their cause. Unfortunately, they might have to rethink their position, releasing prisoners in exchange for one of their own. Maybe on a one for one basis, but not at the ratio they just did. It obviously just emboldens the assholes on the other side to go capture more Israeli soldiers.

I wonder, would it be viewed as equal if Israel went out and rounded up a large enough group of Palestinians if the Saudis manage to capture a soldier? So that they would not be releasing anyone new but basically doing exactly what the Saudis are doing? Fair is fair, and all that?

[Harry]

If extremists clamoring for shooting prisoners as they are released isn't an example of radical thuggery, what is it?

Harry, your bias is showing again! We're all friends here, but you might want to zip up if you go out in public.*

I think it's extremely slimy and shitty of the Saudi's to offer a reward for the capture of an Israeli soldier. That's just fucked up.

MY bias? Fuck all.

What are the odds of the Israeli extremists doing this? About as likely as the same Israeli extremists standing on the edge of the Gaza Strip and starting shooting rockets at civilians.

This is a case of prominent Saudis offering a BOUNTY on any one Israeli soldier. What do you think the odds of it becoming fact? Pretty freaking high. I'm surprised the bounty hasn't been paid yet. And not a single one of you, not a single one, will cry a tear. But when Israel does decide to try and get the hypothetical soldier back, you'll all shit a brick.

*And fuck me, I guess I came back to soon. You can honestly say I'm sucking Israels hypothetical cock? Really?

You know, I'm going to start utilizing the ignore list here. You say rude ass shit like that, no problem, but I throw a "fuck" around once in a while and everyone jumps my ass. Bye, Radu.

[Radu]

If it's any consolation it was intended to be tongue in cheek. I should have used a smiley too so the meaning came through clearer.

Sorry you got upset man. If you'll be happier using the ignore list so be it, but it wasn't meant to be hurtful, just sarcastic.

[Pigs in Space]

Clearly, sarcasm is not conveyed well from the perspective of an Anteater.

[Radu]

No, I guess not. Time to initiate The Great Avatar Search when I get off work tonight. Maybe a return to an old classic?

[shiningbrow]

Aren't anteaters edentates, like tree sloths and kangaroos?

[The Winslow]

What are the odds of the Israeli extremists doing this? About as likely as the same Israeli extremists standing on the edge of the Gaza Strip and starting shooting rockets at civilians.
The only reason they don't do that is that Tsahal already got them covered.

This is a case of prominent Saudis offering a BOUNTY on any one Israeli soldier. What do you think the odds of it becoming fact? Pretty freaking high. I'm surprised the bounty hasn't been paid yet. And not a single one of you, not a single one, will cry a tear. But when Israel does decide to try and get the hypothetical soldier back, you'll all shit a brick.
What do you want people to say? That the Saudis are a bunch of backwater fucktards? That Islam is generally a system of generalized oppression disguised as a religion and that wahhabism is the vilest form of it? I'm pretty sure I've already said things like that before. My contempt for Islam in general, religious extremism in general, and Islamic extremism in particular is not particularly hidden. I have also never hidden my loathing for the petroleum companies that despoil the environment, bribe dictatorships, and fund terrorism through our own money, courtesy of a way of life that made cars and trucks ubiquitous and mandatory.

I just don't see how Saudis being the amoral monsters they usually are excuses a call to shoot prisoners when they're being released. In other words, just because the towelheads are assholes doesn't mean that Israelis aren't either. The entire area is nothing but an ocean of nothing but sand and assholes.

Your post was specifically targeted at people's perceptions of Israel's behavior rather than at that of Saudia's behavior; so that's what we were talking about.

[Aloysius]

What are the odds of the Israeli extremists doing this?

Ask Istzhak Rabin. Or the various Palestinians whose relatives have been killed by israeli extremists in the last decades.



About as likely as the same Israeli extremists standing on the edge of the Gaza Strip and starting shooting rockets at civilians.



Well, why would a civilian do that when they have a whole military doing it with weapons far more murderous than mere rockets ?