Benoit was brain damaged

[Northcott]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070905/entertainment/entertainment_usa_wrestler_col_2

As it is, this is a tragedy -- that somebody should turn upon the ones who love and trust them the most, and kill them. Even worse, though, is the notion that it was caused by Benoit's career in pro wrestling. The notion that he stuck with it to ensure a good life for his family, and ended up killing them because of the brain damage sustained in his career, is horrible. Hopefully, at least, it will offer some consolation to their relatives.

Brain injury, not steroids, seen in wrestler death
Wed Sep 5, 3:48 PM

By Daniel Trotta


NEW YORK (Reuters) - Extensive brain damage caused by a career in professional wrestling is far more likely than steroids to have led Chris Benoit to kill his family and then himself, medical experts said on Wednesday.

Neurologists with the Sports Legacy Institute who examined Benoit's brain found it pockmarked throughout with evidence of chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), whose symptoms include depression, dementia and erratic behavior.

CTE is believed to afflict 20 percent of professional boxers and was found in four professional American football players aged 36 to 50 who died in recent years -- two by suicide -- after showing erratic behavior, the institute said.

The private research institute's experts believe Benoit's brain damage "is enough to very likely explain aberrant behavior including suicide and even homicide," Julian Bailes, chief of neurosurgery at West Virginia University, told a news conference in New York.

Benoit, 40, killed his wife Nancy and 7-year-old son Daniel before hanging himself in their suburban Atlanta home in June in what police labeled a murder-suicide.

That raised speculation it may have been a case of "roid rage," or uncontrollable violence caused by steroid use. An autopsy found Benoit injected steroids not long before he died.

But Bailes said steroids would not have caused Benoit's brain damage, and while he drew no conclusions, he all but ruled out steroids as a cause.

"There is no consensus in the medical community that the syndrome of 'roid rage' even occurs," Bailes said.

The Sports Legacy Institute, an advocate for greater safety in contact sports, was founded by former Harvard University football player and professional wrestler Christopher Nowinski, whose career was cut short by post-concussion syndrome.

Benoit, nicknamed "The Rabid Wolverine" and "The Canadian Crippler," performed for the World Wrestling Entertainment Inc..

Benoit's father, Michael Benoit, granted permission to conduct the test for CTE, which can only be done postmortem. He raised concerns about the extreme nature of the theatrics in professional wrestling.

"The human skull just isn't built to get hit with a table or a chair," he said.

[TiQuinn]

Brain damage plus steroids....horrible combination. :(

[Northcott]

Brain damage plus steroids....horrible combination. :(

Are you still trolling with that? It's enough of a tragedy as it is.

[TiQuinn]

Are you still trolling with that?

Yes. :D

It's enough of a tragedy as it is.

The tragedy is that the WWE is STILL pushing forward as if this is all just rampant speculation and nothing regarding the business had any impact on Benoit's mental stability. So whether they were implicitly pushing wrestlers to take steroids to achieve the right "look", or implicitly forcing wrestlers to take painkillers so they could stay on the road all week long working 2 shows a night when they should've rested, or whether they implicitly pushed wrestlers into taking chair shots to the head because the crowd loves to see wrestlers go over the top in terms of punishment, the point is there is something fundamentally fucked up in wrestling, and that there's no regard for the health or welfare of the wrestlers.

You've defended steroids fairly well, but always with the assumption that these guys were following guidelines for their use, using the proper procedures to make sure they didn't take too much, whatever, but what makes you think that the WWE actually does that?

But saying "Steroids are bad" whenever you're around IS fun. :D

[Varaj]

I'm no neurologist (I play one on TV) but steroid dementia syndrome can mirror encephalopathy from long term neurotoxcity. SDS has been known to cause psychosis and violence. Mix that in with the potential for chronic traumatic encephalopathy and you are asking for problems. Steroid abuse and regular head trauma; bad business.
I feel for the families involved. :(

[TiQuinn]

Here's the WWE's response:

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=4270512&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

"Today's attempt to explain that Chris Benoit's murder of his family was possibly caused by some form of dementia as a result of alleged concussions is speculative. WWE can certainly understand the anguish of a father having to deal with the fact that his son allegedly murdered his wife and young son, as Chris Benoit is alleged to have done. We respect the desire of that father to do whatever he can to find some explanation as to why his son might commit such horrible acts."

Scumbags.

[PWD]

Well of course it's speculative.

[Northcott]

I'm no neurologist (I play one on TV) but steroid dementia syndrome can mirror encephalopathy from long term neurotoxcity. SDS has been known to cause psychosis and violence. Mix that in with the potential for chronic traumatic encephalopathy and you are asking for problems. Steroid abuse and regular head trauma; bad business.
I feel for the families involved. :(

Ditto on the condolences. It's horrid beyond imagining.

As to SDS -- I thought it was still speculative (and fairly questionable) theory. Have they come up with proof? The last study I remember on the tenuous connection between testosterone and brain damage, the lady in question "forgot" to account for the other issues that she introduced to the environment that accounted for cell deterioration.

[Northcott]

The tragedy is that the WWE is STILL pushing forward as if this is all just rampant speculation and nothing regarding the business had any impact on Benoit's mental stability. So whether they were implicitly pushing wrestlers to take steroids to achieve the right "look", or implicitly forcing wrestlers to take painkillers so they could stay on the road all week long working 2 shows a night when they should've rested, or whether they implicitly pushed wrestlers into taking chair shots to the head because the crowd loves to see wrestlers go over the top in terms of punishment, the point is there is something fundamentally fucked up in wrestling, and that there's no regard for the health or welfare of the wrestlers.

Oh, Hell, man... they'd need to be juiced to the gills just to be able to physically recover from the muscular strain of the shows and their workouts combined -- nevermind the look. Plus certain steroids are said to be very effective at repairing damaged joints. I'm sure you can see the appeal of that among wrestlers. The substance abuse among them must be staggering. Probably pro bodybuilder levels.

And there's another "sport" that irritates the Hell out of me. Talk about a corruption of values.

You've defended steroids fairly well, but always with the assumption that these guys were following guidelines for their use, using the proper procedures to make sure they didn't take too much, whatever, but what makes you think that the WWE actually does that?

I should have been clearer in that: I generally presume that a good chunk of these people are abusing the Hell out of them in terms of amount taken. What they're dosing is likely a far, far cry from the turinabol studies of the 1950's and 60's in both volume and duration. I'm presuming that they're at least doing proper PCT -- though I wouldn't be too surprised that many of them probably don't even know what the Hell that is. And that's extra sad, considering they have doctors who are supposedly overseeing this shit.


But saying "Steroids are bad" whenever you're around IS fun. :D

Dude, I'm probably the easiest guy on the board to troll. :)

[Varaj]

Ditto on the condolences. It's horrid beyond imagining.

As to SDS -- I thought it was still speculative (and fairly questionable) theory. Have they come up with proof? The last study I remember on the tenuous connection between testosterone and brain damage, the lady in question "forgot" to account for the other issues that she introduced to the environment that accounted for cell deterioration.

Certainly it isn't 100% but the evidence is reasonable for what I've seen, but I don't think there is case evidence for testosterone specifically.

[TiQuinn]

I should have been clearer in that: I generally presume that a good chunk of these people are abusing the Hell out of them in terms of amount taken. What they're dosing is likely a far, far cry from the turinabol studies of the 1950's and 60's in both volume and duration. I'm presuming that they're at least doing proper PCT -- though I wouldn't be too surprised that many of them probably don't even know what the Hell that is. And that's extra sad, considering they have doctors who are supposedly overseeing this shit.

From what I've read, these guys are pretty much left to their own devices 80% of the time: their transportation, their hotels, their food, and their training while they're on the road are in their hands. I think when one of them gets seriously hurt, they go to probably some of the best doctors in the country and they probably have more scrutiny when they have one of their big pay per views, but the rest of the time, it sounds less controlled. The general wear and tear, and the amount of times that normal people would rest, they can't, and so they have to compensate somehow. The problem is I don't believe for one second that if one of those guys were to say "That's crazy. I need to take a day or so to rest this strained muscle", that they wouldn't be shitcanned.

[Sobek]

Scumbags.

You say that like it's news.

[Northcott]

The problem is I don't believe for one second that if one of those guys were to say "That's crazy. I need to take a day or so to rest this strained muscle", that they wouldn't be shitcanned.

Completely agree.

[Northcott]

BTW, thanks for bringing up SDS, Varaj. It's raised my curiosity, and I'm going to take a second look at it. :)

Edit: After a quick peek -- there doesn't seem to be anything out there linking the kind of steroids we're talking about here to steroid dementia syndrome. Benoit was taking advantage of anabolic steroids, those which build muscle, aid in healing joint tissue, etc. The type of steroid associated with dementia, more often characterized by memory loss and confusion than aggression -- though like Alzheimer's, sufferers may indeed become aggressive and dangerous -- is corticosteroids. More specifically, Prednisone, which is a glucocorticoid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucocorticoid

Short version: sex hormone steroids (anabolics) will punch you in the 'nads. Corticosteroids will punch you in the adrenal gland.

[PWD]

Hey, I've had prednisone. I guess I can roid rage too.

[Varaj]

BTW, thanks for bringing up SDS, Varaj. It's raised my curiosity, and I'm going to take a second look at it. :)

Edit: After a quick peek -- there doesn't seem to be anything out there linking the kind of steroids we're talking about here to steroid dementia syndrome. Benoit was taking advantage of anabolic steroids, those which build muscle, aid in healing joint tissue, etc. The type of steroid associated with dementia, more often characterized by memory loss and confusion than aggression -- though like Alzheimer's, sufferers may indeed become aggressive and dangerous -- is corticosteroids. More specifically, Prednisone, which is a glucocorticoid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucocorticoid

Short version: sex hormone steroids (anabolics) will punch you in the 'nads. Corticosteroids will punch you in the adrenal gland.

http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/281/35/25492?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=Ehrlich&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Testosterone plays a crucial role in neuronal function, but elevated concentrations can have deleterious effects. Here we show that supraphysiological levels of testosterone (micromolar range) initiate the apoptotic cascade. We used three criteria, annexin V labeling, caspase activity, and DNA fragmentation, to determine that apoptotic pathways were activated by testosterone. Micromolar, but not nanomolar, testosterone concentrations increased the response in all three assays of apoptosis. In addition, testosterone induced different concentration-dependent Ca2+ signaling patterns: at low concentrations of testosterone (100 nM), Ca2+ oscillations were produced, whereas high concentrations (1-10 µM) induced a sustained Ca2+ increase. Elevated testosterone concentrations increase cell death, and this effect was abolished in the presence of either inhibitors of caspases or the inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate receptor (InsP3R)-mediated Ca2+ release. Knockdown of InsP3R type 1 with specific small interfering RNA also abolished the testosterone-induced cell death and the prolonged Ca2+ signals. In contrast, knockdown of InsP3R type 3 modified neither the apoptotic response nor the Ca2+ signals. These results support our hypothesis that elevated testosterone alters InsP3R type 1-mediated intracellular Ca2+ signaling and that the prolonged Ca2+ signals lead to apoptotic cell death. These effects of testosterone on neurons will have long term effects on brain function.

[Northcott]

Oooooh. Very nice! In doing a search on "steroid dementia syndrome", the only thing I got was the cortico papers. I'll have to read through this one, see how much of it I understand, and toss it out to some folks who are much more well read on this than I am. Should provide for some interesting discussion! Thanks for posting that link, Varaj.

[Northcott]

Interesting: levels within normal physiological range seem to prevent cell death/degredation... but this being in the testes rather than the brain. Still, I wonder if the effect is limited there?
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/82/7/2314

Which also has me wondering what the supraphysiological range they were testing for in the first sample was. How far did they exceed normal production? And what were the controls?

And this one seems to indicate that any adrogen dependent (or possibly even sensitive?) cells may have apoptosis ameliorated by the presence of testosterone: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1442-2042.1999.06319.x

Barbara Erlich -- now that I focus on her name, that rings a bell. She was the one quoted by the press when the study was released. I believe that's the same study that had the brain cells sitting in a testosterone serum solution that was mixed with alcohol. I heard it bandied about that they'd failed to account for cell death due to the concentration of the serum, and possibly natural attrition of unused cells as well -- though I think the latter was made in jest. I'll have to see if I can dig that up.

Goddamn it, Varaj. Now I'm going to geek out over this. If my wife divorces me because I'm talking in geek-jabber again, I'm blaming you. :mad:

[Northcott]

See what you started?

From what I've been able to find it looks like they used a tissue sample in a petri dish and doused it with testosterone. No account seems to have been made for whether or not that doseage is even possible in a human brain, how testosterone aromatizes to estrogen in the body, how it metabolizes in the body to a number of other steroids with varying cellular effects (such as estradiol), how much is metabolized within the body, how much remains unchanged, etc.

Between that and the use of highly controversial theories, cited as fact, (such as notions of 'roid rage), combined with the notion that this seems to have been their first research paper on testosterone, it almost looks like sensationalism with an eye toward making a quick name for themselves. Not helped by Erlich's quotes in the news -- presuming she wasn't taken out of context.

[Varaj]

Glad to help. :)

[Northcott]

Glad to help. :)


Heh. Now I'm chomping at the bit to see if anybody in the scientific community is going to properly challenge the findings and do a more controlled experiment. That one reads like junk science, but it raises some interesting, and very important, concerns. However, it raises far more questions than it answers, in spite of how they may wish to present it.

Goddammit. I used to hang out with a doctor who was the wife of one of the neurosurgeons at McMaster in Hamilton -- I'd talk with him about medieval history, a hobby of his, and we'd shoot the shit for hours about that stuff. They're divorced now. I wish that things were comfortable enough with John that I could feel at ease calling him up.

[Varaj]

Yeah I don't think there is any indication it is a done deal research wise but it is enough I would have second thoughts about injecting large amounts of ball hormones up my ass. :)

[Northcott]

Yeah I don't think there is any indication it is a done deal research wise but it is enough I would have second thoughts about injecting large amounts of ball hormones up my ass. :)

Humour potential of that comment aside... Yeah, I'd say that's the stance of any rational being. :) I mean, you only need to take a look at some of the grotesque monstrosities of physique that have come out of pro bodybuilding in the last 15 or so years to know that shit ain't healthy. Ronnie Coleman (multiple Mr. Universe winner) may be hu-uuuuuuge and strong as an ox (deadlifting 800lbs raw, for reps), but he can't walk up a set of stairs without sucking wind. With no bodyfat to speak of. Blood pressure issues, back spasms -- think back spasms are bad? On the juice, they're apparently temporarily crippling. I don't know why the media continues to make some shit up when the raw truth is bad enough to turn most folks off of it.

The shame is that the lunkheads who are abusing this shit have turned society onto a witchhunt against a very potent and beneficial medicinal possibility. But I've been down that rant road before, and I'll leave it be this time. :)

[Varaj]

The shame is that the lunkheads who are abusing this shit have turned society onto a witchhunt against a very potent and beneficial medicinal possibility. But I've been down that rant road before, and I'll leave it be this time. :)

I got your back. I agree with you 100%.

[Snatch]

The shame is that the lunkheads who are abusing this shit have turned society onto a witchhunt against a very potent and beneficial medicinal possibility. But I've been down that rant road before, and I'll leave it be this time. :)

Is there a witchhunt against steroid use under any circumstance? I've always seen steroids as something that can be used to great benefit in a medicinal setting but gets abused all to hell for sports or entertainment.

I don't think there's a large or even really vocal group opposed to steroid use for medical reasons - is there?

[Varaj]

Is there a witchhunt against steroid use under any circumstance? I've always seen steroids as something that can be used to great benefit in a medicinal setting but gets abused all to hell for sports or entertainment.

I don't think there's a large or even really vocal group opposed to steroid use for medical reasons - is there?

I've gotten the impression there is for anabolic steroids.

[Northcott]

Is there a witchhunt against steroid use under any circumstance? I've always seen steroids as something that can be used to great benefit in a medicinal setting but gets abused all to hell for sports or entertainment.

I don't think there's a large or even really vocal group opposed to steroid use for medical reasons - is there?

It's something that doctors now fear to prescribe. It raises warning flags when they do, and they can be subjected to extreme scrutiny. If their assessment is disagreed with, it can cause them huge trouble. Most won't even recoment hormone replacement therapy for men with abnormally low testosterone levels, suffering some horrible side-effects, because there's a stigma against testosterone in general at the moment.

Which is fucking idiocy in the extreme. It's a hormone, not a political cause fer chrissakes.

Steroids and testosterone have remarkable potential in life-extension, healing damaged muscles and bones, slowing down/tempering the aging process, and many other applications. They're easy to produce and relatively cheap. In small doses, many of them are harmless. Yet very little is being done with these compounds, and only in a very limited capacity.