National Service

[doc]

The cover story in Time is about National Service which has a fine tradition in the US from FDRs CCC to Cinton's AmeriCorp. So if a 4 year term of culpusiory(sp) National service came in effect (either in the Military or in some other form of service) what would your objections be ? All the Canidates of the Dems and some of the Republicians (Romney will give a position soon :rolleyes:) are all for some form of it BTW.

[Varaj]

I would have little to no objection to compulsory national service depending on the specifics.

[doc]

I'ld like to see it, the ones that want to go into the military can and the others can clean up hazardious waste sites or teach inner city kids (about the same risk) or some other job. My Dad was in the CCC (Civ. Construction Corps) in the late 30s building trails etc. at National parks in the western states, I guess the modern CCC would be cleaning up after floods etc. (Katrina).

[Droid101]

Four years is too long for anything compulsory.

[Space Cadet B^3]

I think it'd be brilliant.

Especially if they retooled aspects of the national guard to act as part of my "home guard" idea.

Imagine unit based reserves with training more specifics to disaster relief. You would need your engineers, your chemical/haz-mat guys, your first-aid/advanced medics. It's not a fully drawn up idea, but I think there's something to it.

[FeatsofClay]

All about it. Hell, I would go so far as to ask a week or two of every able-bodied adult throughout life.

[Janos]

Conceptually I support it and think it could fill a community service role that we need culturally. Not really looking forward to doing it though if I am going to have to.

[Xavier Lang]

Compulsory national service wouldn't bother, depending on the details. Most of us are well served by dealing with things outside of our comfort zones from time to time.

[doc]

Four years is too long for anything compulsory. Ok 2 years with a 6 year emergency call up.

I think it'd be brilliant.

Especially if they retooled aspects of the national guard to act as part of my "home guard" idea.

Imagine unit based reserves with training more specifics to disaster relief. You would need your engineers, your chemical/haz-mat guys, your first-aid/advanced medics. It's not a fully drawn up idea, but I think there's something to it. If you went for one of the "high end" specific job the goverment would foot the training bill but you'll have to stay in longer. While the common laborer type does 2 years (or whatever) period.

[Brynja]

I would support it if ALL had to do it. None of this the crotch droppings of the powerful, rich and famous getting out of it.

[doc]

I would support it if ALL had to do it. None of this the crotch droppings of the powerful, rich and famous getting out of it.

The middle class are the one's in the military now, so add the inner city thuggees to that list

[Reincarnated Dick]

I could really support complusory service. I think that the terms could be adjusted for the type of service performed as well. Perhaps shorter terms for military service and longer terms for administrative or tasks that were less intensive in either the skills they required, etc.

Maybe we could just re-org the public school system to include tracks for college prep + service; technical + service, etc.

Of course I am generally in favor of something in the form of a CCC as a replacement for those on welfare\state aid who are able but choose not to work (not for those who cannot for whatever reason).

[doc]

The professional welfare recipatents will have to made to be in it ie "drafted" and the ACLU will yell about it.

[Varaj]

Hmmm 1 year at 18 and then 100 hours a year there after. 100 hours can be broken up to fit into small time blocks. Let local communities determine what qualifies.

[PWD]

Let local communities determine what qualifies.

Nah. Rich towns would require you to play 100 hours of golf while they hired in the community service people from poor towns to pick up their garbage. The poor towns, not having much option, would have to jump at the money.

Set federal standards.

[Brynja]

The middle class are the one's in the military now, so add the inner city thuggees to that list

I dont know what world you live in but the poor are the ones in the service here.

[Janos]

I dont know what world you live in but the poor are the ones in the service here.

Poor in NY are the middle class in Doc's part of town. Duh!

[Varaj]

Nah. Rich towns would require you to play 100 hours of golf while they hired in the community service people from poor towns to pick up their garbage. The poor towns, not having much option, would have to jump at the money.

Set federal standards.

That golf ain't going to play itself.

[Xavier Lang]

Nah. Rich towns would require you to play 100 hours of golf while they hired in the community service people from poor towns to pick up their garbage. The poor towns, not having much option, would have to jump at the money.

Set federal standards.

Don't set federal standards. Towns that allow/encourage cheesy/useless requirements will have less free labor. If they have the wealth to do that, let them. A percentage of people are going to abuse and misuse any system you build. Federal standards and oversight isn't going to change that. Let them do it at the local level. If you have federal oversight then you have to have federal employees come out and inspect every so often. People have to submit paperwork to the federal government and so on.

[doc]

I dont know what world you live in but the poor are the ones in the service here. Sorry to burst your bubble but here's the stats I found on on the U.S Army demographics (www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/demographics/FY05 Army Profile.pdf) -- Enlisted White Male 61.4 %, Black 20.6 %, National Guard 74 % white / 13.7 Black
Poor in NY are the middle class in Doc's part of town. Duh!
I'm about tired of being called an idiot.

[Janos]

I'm about tired of being called an idiot.

Median income for a family of 4 in Arkansas $52,217

Median income for a family of 4 in New York $72,170

Middle class income in Arkansis would be lower class income in New York. I'm not quite sure how you took that as an insult against your intelligence. It was poking fun at the relative wealth level of your state. But don't let facts get in the way of this new victim complex you've developed lately.

Snark aside, the military is mostly middle class. The brochure doc linked to doesn't really say that, but there are several other places that do. Here for starters: http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm

[doc]

Median income for a family of 4 in Arkansas $52,217

Median income for a family of 4 in New York $72,170

Middle class income in Arkansis would be lower class income in New York. I'm not quite sure how you took that as an insult against your intelligence. It was poking fun at the relative wealth level of your state. But don't let facts get in the way of this new victim complex you've developed lately.

Snark aside, the military is mostly middle class. The brochure doc linked to doesn't really say that, but there are several other places that do. Here for starters: http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm


I like facts, cost of living in Arkansas is lower then New York, say a New yorker moved to Little Rock (no listing for PB) here's said CoLProduct New York (Manhattan) NY Little Rock-N Little Rock AR Difference
HOME PRICE $1,099,398.50 $224,775.00 $874,623.50
PAYMENT+ INTEREST $4,871.89 $990.50 $3,881.39
APT RENT $3,424.00 $651.00 $2,773.00
TOTAL ENERGY $235.78 $119.75 $116.03
PART ELECTRICAL $139.71 $75.00 $64.71
LIPITOR $125.75 $129.00 $3.25
DOCTOR VISIT $105.71 $62.00 $43.71
DENTIST VISIT $97.86 $58.60 $39.26
OTHER ENERGY $96.07 $44.75 $51.32
OPTOMETRIST $71.33 $87.80 $16.47
WASHER REPAIR $68.33 $58.40 $9.93
VET SERVICES $59.86 $43.40 $16.46
BEAUTY SALON $53.14 $25.00 $28.14
WOMENS SLACKS $42.71 $23.39 $19.32
NEWSPAPER $35.15 $11.25 $23.90
MENS SHIRT $33.28 $29.30 $3.98
PHONE $32.31 $26.25 $6.06
BOYS JEAN $19.56 $19.99 $0.43
HAIR CUT $14.71 $15.00 $0.29
T BONE STEAK $12.01 $6.97 $5.04
WINE $11.86 $6.99 $4.87
MOVIE $10.42 $7.00 $3.42
PIZZA $9.99 $8.99 $1.00
TIRE BALANCE $9.50 $8.26 $1.24
DRY CLEANING $8.87 $8.80 $0.07
BEER $8.06 $7.23 $0.83
IBUPROFEN $7.78 $5.37 $2.41
BOWLING $7.36 $2.77 $4.59
CASCADE $6.27 $4.29 $1.98
SAUSAGE $5.19 $2.75 $2.44
POTATOES $5.05 $3.57 $1.48
PARMESAN CHEESE $4.59 $3.59 $1.00
CEREAL $4.21 $3.39 $0.82
COFFEE $4.15 $2.87 $1.28
CRISCO $4.13 $2.95 $1.18
FROZEN MEAL $3.79 $2.05 $1.74
GROUND BEEF $3.73 $2.33 $1.40
TOOTHPASTE $3.67 $2.70 $0.97
TENNIS BALLS $3.61 $1.99 $1.62
ORANGE JUICE $3.59 $2.65 $0.94
HAMBURGER SANDWICH $3.23 $1.99 $1.24
POTATO CHIPS $3.12 $2.18 $0.94
GASOLINE $3.06 $2.51 $0.55
2-PC CHICKEN $3.00 $2.99 $0.01
KLEENEX $2.33 $1.29 $1.04
SUGAR $2.31 $1.54 $0.77
FROZEN CORN $2.29 $1.55 $0.74
HALF GAL MILK $2.27 $1.95 $0.32
PEACHES $1.99 $1.55 $0.44
DOZ EGGS $1.97 $1.13 $0.84
LETTUCE $1.97 $0.99 $0.98
MARGARINE $1.85 $0.79 $1.06
BREAD $1.64 $1.21 $0.43
COKE $1.59 $0.95 $0.64
FRIED CHICKEN $1.55 $0.76 $0.79
SHAMPOO $1.44 $1.29 $0.15
SWEET PEAS $1.11 $0.99 $0.12
TUNA $0.95 $0.79 $0.16
BANANAS $0.73 $0.55 $0.18
Mortgage (%) 5.86% 5.81% 0.05

[Brynja]

I find it interesting you equate other races with poor.

Whites can be poor, and often are.

I stand by my contention.

[Space Cadet B^3]

C'mon Doc, just be yourself, one thing this board has, is balls enough to call out someone who's sore. And breasticles enough to bitchslap someone who's been sore for too long.

[doc]

I find it interesting you equate other races with poor.

Whites can be poor, and often are.

I stand by my contention. Looking for the pre- military economic state of recruits but all I found was from 2003.

C'mon Doc, just be yourself, one thing this board has, is balls enough to call out someone who's sore. And breasticles enough to bitchslap someone who's been sore for too long.
Yep, gotta get my heart off my sleeve and relize that folks just don't like me :)

[Brynja]

Hey at this rate you and Billy can have a passive aggressive party.

Though I have to say in his defence Billy has sacked up and got a spine.

[doc]

Just the facts ma'am , just the facts (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=18225)

Military Demographics Representative of America, Officials Say
By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Nov. 23, 2005 – The U.S. military is not a "poor man's force."

That's the conclusion Defense Department officials reached following examination of enlisted recruiting statistics gathered over the past year.

"There is an issue of how representative of America is the force," said Curt Gilroy, the director of DoD's accessions policy in the Pentagon.

DoD tracks "representativeness" - as Gilroy calls it - very closely. And representativeness can take a whole host of forms - race, education, social status, income, region and so on. "When you look at all of those, you find that the force is really quite representative of the country," he said in a recent interview. "It mirrors the country in many of these. And where it doesn't mirror America, it exceeds America."

The data shows the force is more educated than the population at large. Servicemembers have high school diplomas or the general equivalency diploma. More servicemembers have some college than the typical 18- to 24-year-olds. "To carry representativeness to the extreme, we would have to have a less-educated force or we would want a lower-aptitude force," Gilroy said.

The study is part of DoD's focus to bring the best recruits into the military. The services - who are responsible for manning, equipping and training the force - take this data and apply it to recruiting efforts.

The force is a volunteer force; no one is coerced into serving. The military is one option young people have after high school. Military service offers money for college - money a large segment of the population doesn't have. For those people, the military is an attractive option.

Many young people who don't yet know what they want to do see the military as a place to serve and decide what they want to do for the rest of their lives, rather than take a low-paying job or do nothing.

Critics say the U.S. military has too many African-Americans as compared to the population and not enough Hispanics or Asian-Americans. "We don't recruit for race," Gilroy said. "We have standards, and if people meet those standards, then should we say they are not allowed in because of race? That would be wrong."

The statistics show the number of African-American servicemembers is dropping. That concerns Gilroy and his office. The military is a leader in equal opportunity in the United States, he said, adding that few, if any, Fortune 500 companies can match the equal employment opportunity record of the military. The office is studying why young black men and women are not signing up.

The office also is studying the Hispanic population in America. Census records say Hispanics are the largest minority group in the United States. Young Hispanic men and women have a strong tendency to serve in the military, though so far, only the Marine Corps has been "able to break the code" to get significant numbers of recruits, Gilroy said.

On the socioeconomic side, the military is strongly middle class, Gilroy said. More recruits are drawn from the middle class and fewer are coming from poorer and wealthier families. Recruits from poorer families are actually underrepresented in the military, Gilroy said.

Other trends are that the number of recruits from wealthier families is increasing, and the number of recruits from suburban areas has increased. This also tracks that young men and women from the middle class are serving in the military.

Young men and women from urban areas are not volunteering, Gilroy said. In fact, urban areas provide far fewer recruits as a percentage of the total population than small towns and rural areas.

DoD and the services will use these statistics and more to craft their recruiting policies, Gilroy said.

[Janos]

Yep, gotta get my heart off my sleeve and relize that folks just don't like me :)

I find you amusing doc, I always have. But no matter how much I like or dislike someone, I always call bullshit when I see it. If you don't know that about me yet, you haven't been paying attention for years.

[Brynja]

The source is the american military. Specious at best but I am willing to accept it. I do note that the armed forces are offering BIG money to kids to join now. Enticing the poor.

[doc]

The source is the american military. Specious at best but I am willing to accept it. I do note that the armed forces are offering BIG money to kids to join now. Enticing the poor.

They always have, hell I got a "signing bonas" in 78 when I joined and both times I reuped, thats how the Green Machine works. The recruiters aren't shanghaing them.

[Brynja]

I disagree, they come to schools and pressure the shit out of kids.

[doc]

Is it those recruiters in particular or the Military in general that you don't like ?

I'm intrested not looking for a fight

[Brynja]

Both.

[doc]

Both.

So you're against all things Military ?

[cnath.rm]

The idea of starting something like this in the US somewhat amuses me considering that Germany which has had something like it for years was (last I read of it) considering ending the program. (causing many charities to wonder where they will find people now that they won't have all of the people looking for charity work to fill their service requirements)

Granted, I think there would be some merit to it, but on the other hand it could/would screw up the job market in the US like it did in Germany. I'm not sure that 4 years or even 2 would really be workable, but I sure wouldn't mind them coming up with something like the old CCC, there are a whole lot of national parks without the personnel to keep them up and such.

[Brynja]

So you're against all things Military ?

No.

[Harry]

Damn, Doc. You pay $15 for a haircut? Who do you all think you are over there, John Edwards?

[doc]

That's Little Rock, I pay either $12 (at the barber) or free if I want to risk my neighbor's mood toward me ,she's a hair dresser & her husband drinks beer at my house to escape her wrath :p

[Utrecht]

I could get behind a 12 month federally manager system - one that ensures that people move to a new experience (i.e. north to south, east to west, city to rural, etc) give people a chance to see what the other shoe looks like.

Anything longer begins to affect people's lives to much.

Heck, I think that they US government should look at how the Morman church does its missions (and I am OK with this, or any other authentic missionary program taking its place).

[Dacke]

Heck, I think that they US government should look at how the Morman church does its missions (and I am OK with this, or any other authentic missionary program taking its place).
Um, why? I mean, if a private organization demands that its members do something, that's up to them, but not something the gov't should get involved in or support.

[Janos]

and I am OK with this, or any other authentic missionary program taking its place.

No.

I don't want anything that encourages more missionary work. All that will bring is more religious preaching to attempt conversion, more religious controversy (missionary work essentially says "your religion is wrong, mine is right" at its core), or more door-to-door sales (which is the other half of what missionary work is).

[Utrecht]

Um, why? I mean, if a private organization demands that its members do something, that's up to them, but not something the gov't should get involved in or support.

I was refering to the structure/execution on how they train up missionaries and expose them to new experiences. I fully agree that the government should not be involved in any way with the promotion and/or support of a any religion.

No.

I don't want anything that encourages more missionary work. All that will bring is more religious preaching to attempt conversion, more religious controversy (missionary work essentially says "your religion is wrong, mine is right" at its core), or more door-to-door sales (which is the other half of what missionary work is).


It really comes down to what you want out of the mandatory service doesn't it? Are you looking for people to do something for the good of the state (then yea, I can see you not wanting missionary work). Or are you looking for something to give young people new experiences and important life skills - then I think you are being deliberatly blind to missionary work and its benefits based off of your predudices.

[Janos]

Or are you looking for something to give young people new experiences and important life skills - then I think you are being deliberatly blind to missionary work and its benefits based off of your predudices.

I just see a long road of further conflict between religions in this country if Missionary work is going to become more common. Mormon missionaries have faced prejudice, physical abuse, and local laws limiting or prohibiting their preaching in a variety of states. Just imagine the first time an Islamic Missionary shows up on the door of a bible-thumper. It is going to cause more religious conflict because people in this country.

And Mormon missionary work is rarely done for non-Mormon charities. So it is entirely serving the religion, and not at all serving the state. Those are real concerns.

I vehemently oppose any attempt to increase unsolicited marketing, whether it is junk mail, spam e-mail, or door-to-door sales. That is my personal bias on the matter, but that doesn't remove the real issues tied up with it too.

[Utrecht]

I just see a long road of further conflict between religions in this country if Missionary work is going to become more common. Mormon missionaries have faced prejudice, physical abuse, and local laws limiting or prohibiting their preaching in a variety of states. Just imagine the first time an Islamic Missionary shows up on the door of a bible-thumper. It is going to cause more religious conflict because people in this country.


Except for some isolated frontier incidents - when has religeous conflict been a significant issue in America.


And Mormon missionary work is rarely done for non-Mormon charities. So it is entirely serving the religion, and not at all serving the state. Those are real concerns.

yes, all true - not sure what we are saying here.


I vehemently oppose any attempt to increase unsolicited marketing, whether it is junk mail, spam e-mail, or door-to-door sales. That is my personal bias on the matter, but that doesn't remove the real issues tied up with it too.

Easily solved by putting a no-solicitating sign up....

But again, you have not addessed what you are looking for in a mandatory service program.

Are you looking for something to serve the good of the state - then I agree 100%, missionary work MUST be excluded.

But if you are looking for a motivation to give skills and life experience to young people. then IMO Missionary work should be included (along with Peace Corp, American Red Cross, etc.)

[cnath.rm]

But again, you have not addessed what you are looking for in a mandatory service program.

Are you looking for something to serve the good of the state - then I agree 100%, missionary work MUST be excluded.

But if you are looking for a motivation to give skills and life experience to young people. then IMO Missionary work should be included (along with Peace Corp, American Red Cross, etc.)Ahh ok, so if I'm following you correctly, you are talking about considering missionary or other church related work as possible equivalents to governmental service in filling the mandatory service requirement then?

[doc]

That's not what I intended when I started this thread, here's the wikipedia entry for the CCC to get this back on track (Janos take you're anti religon to the proper forum)

The Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) was a work relief program for young men from unemployed families, established on March 19, 1933 by U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt. As part of Roosevelt's New Deal legislation, it was designed to combat poverty and unemployment caused by the Great Depression. The CCC became one of the most popular New Deal programs among the general public[citation needed] and operated in every U.S. state and several territories. The young men went to camps of about 200 men each for six month periods where they were paid to do outdoor construction work. The separate Indian Division was a major relief force for Native American reservations during the Depression.

California, Montana and Colorado all have a version of this today in thier states.

[Utrecht]

Doc, this type of stuff is fine - basically giving underprivelidged/under skilled folks a chance at learning new skills and broadening their horizons - all fall within my definition of what a national service program should be about.

However, what I would not want to see it become would be some sort of income distribution/support program (i.e. move to Colorado and we will give you $500/month) Sounds like a way for states to shutter thier "problems" elsewhere.

[Utrecht]

Ahh ok, so if I'm following you correctly, you are talking about considering missionary or other church related work as possible equivalents to governmental service in filling the mandatory service requirement then?

As long as the "church work" involved moving to a different part of the country/world and included learning a skill - Building houses, teaching english to immigrants, etc. (and ideally, I would like the volunteer to have no choice in what they get assigned)

My focus here is on the betterment of the individual - I firmly beleive that we would all be better off expanding our boundries.

[Xavier Lang]

(and ideally, I would like the volunteer to have no choice in what they get assigned)

I'm torn on agreeing with that.
I can understand not wanting people to be able to cherry pick what they do but you can also waste a lot of potential this way.

I grow more if I learn how to do something I can do but never thought of vs. I am forced to do something we know I will suck at.

[Utrecht]

I'm torn on agreeing with that.
I can understand not wanting people to be able to cherry pick what they do but you can also waste a lot of potential this way.

I grow more if I learn how to do something I can do but never thought of vs. I am forced to do something we know I will suck at.

I hear you - but I also think that people truly wont know if they suck at something until they really try it.....

Sure, you don't but the 450 lbs guy out doing heavy manual labor (some intelligence in the assigment is necessary) but again, I see this as a chance to do something you never knew you could/wanted to do....

[doc]

As long as ALL are involved and the upper class as well as the lower class (ie welfare rolls) are sweating togather

[Janos]

Except for some isolated frontier incidents - when has religeous conflict been a significant issue in America.

Specifically I'm recalling a situation we had locally where two Mormon kids were beaten very badly when they showed up at a house in Santa Ana (a traditionally hispanic/catholic very poor neighborhood with gang issues). I've seen other stories about bomb threatens, protests, etc outside of Mosques on several occasions. Google isn't providing me any easy references, but I'm fairly certain I've seen other such stories.

So all I can give is a weak "its my perception that not all religions are equal". And can easily imagine people getting very bent out of shape at having Missionaries showing up on their door if they were Islamic.

And specifically "no soliciting" doesn't exclude missionaries in all areas depending on local ordances. Nor is it very enforceable at the best of times.

But again, you have not addessed what you are looking for in a mandatory service program...

Are you looking for something to serve the good of the state - then I agree 100%, missionary work MUST be excluded.

Include local community, and you just gave a great definition of what I would like to see from a State or Federal service program.

Based off the original post by Doc:

So if a 4 year term of culpusiory(sp) National service came in effect (either in the Military or in some other form of service) what would your objections be ?

If we're equating national service with military time and the like, then I don't think the point of the exercise is life skills. I also don't think the government should be forcing life skills. But I'm all in favor of some formal form of service to the government though that serves larger interests.

(Janos take you're anti religon to the proper forum)

:rolleyes:

I'm not the one that brought up Missionary work, which is relevant to the topic at hand. And being anti-Missionary work is not automatically anti-religious.

[Lisa Nadazdy]

I'm completely against compulsory service. The state should not have the right to dictate what a citizen does, especially when plenty of civilian contractors exist to do the work. I'm not obligated to serve the state- the state exists only because it serves a useful function to the public, not the other way around.

[Freedom Canadian]

I'm completely against compulsory service. The state should not have the right to dictate what a citizen does, especially when plenty of civilian contractors exist to do the work. I'm not obligated to serve the state- the state exists only because it serves a useful function to the public, not the other way around.

"Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country can do for you.", heh ? I agree completely. :)

[Martin]

I would have little to no objection to compulsory national service depending on the specifics.

I'm in agreement with this statement.

I dont know what world you live in but the poor are the ones in the service here.

I disagree, they come to schools and pressure the shit out of kids.

When I was a kid (by which I mean high school age), the recruiters trolled my middle-class school for recruits and called me at my middle-class home to try to talk me into joining the military. I, at the time, was resistant. In my mid-twenties, my outlook had changed sufficiently to make the decision to serve. When I was in the Air Force, most of the enlisted men I knew mostly came from middle-class backgrounds, though there were a few who can from working class backgrounds. That was my personal experience, and in my extended experience based on family members who have served and are serving now, the same would hold true.

While being a soldier is a way out of lower and working class conditions, generally speaking, the military tends to be a middle-class profession.

Heck, I think that they US government should look at how the Morman church does its missions (and I am OK with this, or any other authentic missionary program taking its place).

Mormon missionaries are supposed to maintain themselves and pay their own way, I thought. This would not work based on your other premise of people seeing different sides of life.

I'm completely against compulsory service. The state should not have the right to dictate what a citizen does, especially when plenty of civilian contractors exist to do the work. I'm not obligated to serve the state- the state exists only because it serves a useful function to the public, not the other way around.

"Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country can do for you.", heh ? I agree completely. :)

I can easily see why Canada was a utopia destination for those who felt it in their best interests to avoid the draft. ;)

I disagree with that sentiment, I'm afraid. I believe that the state should be in symbiosis with the public and the public can only maintain the state by being involved. The public must serve the state in order to ensure that the state continues to serve the public. Jury duty is a prime example of this.

[Utrecht]

Specifically I'm recalling a situation we had locally where two Mormon kids were beaten very badly when they showed up at a house in Santa Ana (a traditionally hispanic/catholic very poor neighborhood with gang issues). I've seen other stories about bomb threatens, protests, etc outside of Mosques on several occasions. Google isn't providing me any easy references, but I'm fairly certain I've seen other such stories.

So all I can give is a weak "its my perception that not all religions are equal". And can easily imagine people getting very bent out of shape at having Missionaries showing up on their door if they were Islamic.


Methinks that you are reading between the lines to much to find things that aren't there. Yes, there are incidents - but hell you can get killed/assaulted going to school/store/work....


And specifically "no soliciting" doesn't exclude missionaries in all areas depending on local ordances. Nor is it very enforceable at the best of times.


Did not know that - they do here.....


Include local community, and you just gave a great definition of what I would like to see from a State or Federal service program.


what I mean my state - is the STATE (i.e. the government) so local would be covered.


If we're equating national service with military time and the like, then I don't think the point of the exercise is life skills. I also don't think the government should be forcing life skills.


such as mandating schooling......


But I'm all in favor of some formal form of service to the government though that serves larger interests.


and this is where you and I disagree from Lisa- I feel that we as citizens reap more from our country than what they get from us and as citizens we should give back (in a manner that fits our choosing)

[Janos]

Methinks that you are reading between the lines to much to find things that aren't there. Yes, there are incidents - but hell you can get killed/assaulted going to school/store/work....

I have to conceed that point. I can't find much evidence to back up my assertion.

such as mandating schooling......

Necessary evil to avoid an ignorant population and to ensure that our basic rights remains ours and are understood. It does build basic skills as well though. I actually dislike the concept of mandatory schooling. But I see no better system around it. I don't see any form of National Service program falling into the same sort of catagory.

and this is where you and I disagree from Lisa- I feel that we as citizens reap more from our country than what they get from us and as citizens we should give back (in a manner that fits our choosing)

Agreed. Martin said it far better than I could have above.

[Freedom Canadian]

I can easily see why Canada was a utopia destination for those who felt it in their best interests to avoid the draft. ;)

I disagree with that sentiment, I'm afraid. I believe that the state should be in symbiosis with the public and the public can only maintain the state by being involved. The public must serve the state in order to ensure that the state continues to serve the public. Jury duty is a prime example of this.

And none of that is necessarily incompatible with what I said. Specifically, if you are an enlightened human being, the "you" in my line does not have to refer to you as an individual but rather to you and your fellow human beings. In other words, I don't mind paying a lot more in taxes than I get back in services since in theory, it helps other people who need it. Likewise, I don't think volunteering to serve in the military or jury duty should be looked down on. But I don't think a draft should be instituted or civil service forced on people unless the situation was very dire indeed (such as a real threat of invasion).

The point is that the state is there to serve people, not the other way around. It should not be an end in itself. It is a tool, an artificial structure created by humans to serve humans.

[Freedom Canadian]

OMG ! Double post !

Hold me ! :boggled:

[Bagpuss]

Ok 2 years with a 6 year emergency call up.


I thought the US had been in a constant emergency since 9/11, that sounds even worse than 4 years to me.

[doc]

I thought the US had been in a constant emergency since 9/11, that sounds even worse than 4 years to me.

By a emergency call up I meant in time of a Local diaster like a flood, hurricane or tornado. Then the local/ state goverment has a force to clean up the area and the National Guard can protrol for looters, contuct S&R or help with the clean up. As for contractors there's been a lot of flack about them doing crappy work or non at all and chargeing big bucks