(dark) musings about WOW

[Edena_of_Neith]

I've seen some of World of Warcraft now, and wish to make some comments of a dark nature concerning the setting.

In AD&D, staying alive was a priority, whether it was heroic roleplaying, or roleplaying an evil character, or not roleplaying at all (simply going through the dungeon, simply doing the mechanics, as it were.)
In our endeavors to survive, we created a specific culture based on that. For example, a player who deliberately got the entire group killed would have been frowned upon. A player who attacked a high level NPC, like the King, and brought the wrath of the authorities down on the group, without cause, might have been frowned upon.
We had to deal with consequences for our actions, even in a fantasy world.

In World of Warcraft, a different situation exists among a fairly large number of players, and their behavior influences the whole rest of the setting.
These players have adopted something akin to the role of the Military Irregular, who is not a part of the military but works freelance, and launches assaults against the enemy on a singular or small basis, attacking towns, cities, civilians, and military alike.

However, because death has no (apparent) consequences in WOW, there is no check on the behavior of these individuals, and they have in general decided to take an extreme course of action: they launch suicide attacks, in which they intend to die, and take out as many of the enemy (and any others who happen to be nearby) as possible with them.
These suicide attacks are incessant and endless, and they occur everywhere, even in the heart of friendly cities. There is, literally, no place one could be, and be safe, not even standing directly in front of the King himself.
The countryside is terrorized and deadly, inns are warzones, the bones of the dead litter city squares, and the attacks continue, relentless and endless.

On PvP servers in WOW, pretty much everywhere the rule of terror exists.
On Normal and Rping servers, the terror exists everywhere also, in a sense, for the NPCs everywhere are subject to attack, even if the players are not.
The terror attacks - attacks on NPCs and any player so foolish as to flag himself or herself - are a thing the majority of players try to ignore, so those conducting the attacks make a point of being more relentless, more aggressive, trying to demand the attention of those trying to ignore them, and succeeding ... unfortunately.

Now, this would not happen in AD&D for the good reason that there used to be a limit on the number of times one could die. Death had consequences. So player characters would not blithely throw their lives away in suicide attacks on the foe (or, if they did, they wouldn't last very long, and they certainly would not make mid level or high level, and thus be effective at such attacks.)
Instead, in AD&D, care would have been used in attacks. Planning and preparation, thought and care, would have gone into military action. Consequences would have been considered. Risk assessment versus reward would have been taken into account.

It would be a strange and unrewarding AD&D game, where the player characters endlessly attacked against impossible odds, got themselves killed, then immediately attacked again, died again, and repeated this over and over, without any reward, gaining any experience, any treasure, or even any recognition or honor.
More to the point, it wouldn't be an AD&D game that lasted very long. In addition to being patently ridiculous, it would be a terrible bore. It would simply come off as absurd from the start, and after a short time it would come off as profoundly absurd to everyone at the table.
It would make the Knights of the Dinner Table look like Sherlock Holmes in comparison.

Yet this is not only common, it is the norm in World of Warcraft, on PvP servers.
And on Normal and Rping servers, it is a reality that sits as an unwanted backdrop against which everything else occurs (you may not be flagged, and thus be protected, but that doesn't stop 5 or 6 players from constantly stalking you, hoping that you will flag for some reason, altogether and all the time.)

I must wonder what these players are getting out of this?
It isn't experience, levels, treasure, or honor, or anything else In Game.
It isn't something fulfilling Out of Game? Where is the fulfillment in killing a 40th level character with an 80th level character? Or a 10th level character with an 80th level character? Or an NPC? Or, some animal walking along the road? What's the point?

Doing it, killing people, just for the sake of doing it, killing people? Wouldn't that get old, after a while?

Yet there it is. A ton of these people running around, launching these attacks, endlessly.

[Dacke]

Well, in some cases there is rep involved. For instance, to get the Bloodsail Admiral title, you need to get a very high Bloodsail Buccaneers reputation, which basically involves killing tons of goblins. So if your questgivers in Everlook, Ratchet, Booty Bay, or Gadgetzan keep getting killed, that's because someone wants a shiny title in front of his name or a cool hat.

Attacking capitals is of course a valid thing to do, since there are rewards for offing all the opposition's faction leaders.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of pvp - I've gotten my feet wet a little, mostly in relation to holiday achievments. But some people seem to like it.

[Name Lips]

I know you're very intimately familiar with AD&D Edena, but I think you're making a fundamental mistake comparing the two. It is interesting noticing the differences, but it's just a thought experiment really. WoW is not intended to fill the same role as pen-and-paper games. They're different, as you notice, in extremely fundamental ways.

The problem you seem to be having is that the farther away from AD&D WoW gets, the more you get confused by it and wonder why people play it. From a WoW player introduced to AD&D you might get the same reaction, in reverse. They might wonder why anybody bothers with role-playing and intricate plots and storylines when all they want is a reflex-and-strategy based, competitive pvp experience. How does AD&D fill that need? It doesn't. They'd see no point in it. Plus when you die there are penalties! That would totally ruin it.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Those are actual missions, though, that involve actual rewards.
A fair number of people want the title of Bloodsail Admiral and so they kill the NPC goblins, or wish to have taken part in For the Alliance or For the Horde and so they attack the NPCs in cities. That's understandable, because there are rewards involved.
In these cases, player characters get involved who are trying to defend the goblins, defend their own rulers and cities, or just to be involved in general. Thus, individual player characters fight each other in the goblin cities, or there are great and spectacular battles between player characters (and a lot of NPCs thrown in) in the cities.
Some of these battles are viewable on YouTube, and are incredibly spectacular. Good stuff, really. The kind of epic battle your hero or heroine wants to be in.

I'm not referring to those players, or what they are doing.

I'm referring to the kamikazis who suddenly appear in the Stormwind City auction house. The ones you find swimming in the canals (as if they lead anywhere ...) The ones who nuke the 10th level who foolishly flagged, new to the game, who thought himself safe because he was deep inside a friendly city.
Or, on the other side, the suicides who run amok in Silvermoon City's bazaar, crashing the city inn and taking over the place, running like race cars up and down the city streets.

Glory Hounds? People in World of Warcraft don't call that glorious. Most people in World of Warcraft have a word for that, and it's not complimentary.
Honor? What is honorable about killing people more than 10 levels below you?
Aiding the war effort? Some on the other side actually pay attention enough to laugh themselves silly at their actions. Most try to ignore them. If they are actually successful in annoying the other side, the other side sends it's own suicides to retaliate (which is pointless also, but there it is ...)

Nah, what they are, are Kamikazi Hounds. And these Hounds, are running up and down the countryside, stealthing through cities, sneaking into inns, attacking anyone who is flagged, ganking (slaughtering characters and NPCs 10 levels or more below them), and otherwise making all the Enemy Propaganda about your side look true.
Inevitably, friendly 80s come and deal with these Hounds, but not before they've done their damage.

I suppose a Chaotic Evil AD&D character or group could pull this stunt, and get away with it, assuming a friendly DM who allowed them to get away with it.
But eventually, someone is going to come to deal with the group. Or, everyone in the campaign world is going to attack the group on sight, with their reputation.
Or, maybe, the entire world is going to collapse into anarchy, everyone starts shooting at all others on sight, and most people turn evil, especially chaotic evil? And start imitating the chaotic evil group?
Fun world ...

[Edena_of_Neith]

I know you're very intimately familiar with AD&D Edena, but I think you're making a fundamental mistake comparing the two. It is interesting noticing the differences, but it's just a thought experiment really. WoW is not intended to fill the same role as pen-and-paper games. They're different, as you notice, in extremely fundamental ways.

The problem you seem to be having is that the farther away from AD&D WoW gets, the more you get confused by it and wonder why people play it. From a WoW player introduced to AD&D you might get the same reaction, in reverse. They might wonder why anybody bothers with role-playing and intricate plots and storylines when all they want is a reflex-and-strategy based, competitive pvp experience. How does AD&D fill that need? It doesn't. They'd see no point in it. Plus when you die there are penalties! That would totally ruin it.

You're right. It is confusing. Much of it seems quite pointless.
PvE? There is a purpose there, a challenge that can be met, obstacles that can be overcome, a situation where strategy and tactics can win out against the odds.
PvE could even lead to rping situations. Theoretically, at least.

PvP?
Doing For The Alliance, or fighting in Alterac Valley, or gaining the title of Bloodsail Admiral, makes sense.

But running around being a Kamikazi Hound? That makes no sense. Not to me.

[Hatter]

Overheard at an alternate universe GenCon:

"Dude, I can't wait until the next module for G1 comes out, I'm totally pwning those n00b giants lol."

"rofl, lern 2 play, zuggtmoy"

[Snatch]

You're right. It is confusing. Much of it seems quite pointless.
PvE? There is a purpose there, a challenge that can be met, obstacles that can be overcome, a situation where strategy and tactics can win out against the odds.
PvE could even lead to rping situations. Theoretically, at least.

PvP?
Doing For The Alliance, or fighting in Alterac Valley, or gaining the title of Bloodsail Admiral, makes sense.

But running around being a Kamikazi Hound? That makes no sense. Not to me.

WoW and ADnD are two very different games. RPing in WoW would be difficult and its not really suited for it. PvP in ADnD - same thing, not really suited for it.

[Lady_Acoma]

RPing in WoW is extremely hilarious however.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Well, on the server I am on, called Moon Guard, there is a sort of rping going on, but it's making Moon Guard rather infamous.
It's ERPing, or erotic role playing, and it's centered in the town of Goldshire in the human realm of Stormwind. Goldshire, has been renamed Pornshire by a large number of people on the server.

However, the people involved in question, don't have any sense of tact, none in the slightest.
One passes through Goldshire with a female character, and straight out of the blue, straight out of nowhere, someone whispers: Want to have sex with me?
Or, they yell for the whole of the area to hear: Anyone want to erp?

I have to flinch at the very thought of this.
Can you imagine a man walking around a restaurant in the Real World, such as a Dennys, asking each waitress and female patron in turn, whether they 'want to have sex with him?' Or shout out to the whole place: Anyone want to have sex?
We all know what would happen, of course.

But in Goldshire, on Moon Guard, this is the actual behavior you run into, when even passing through. If you stick around, and you have a female character, you will be propositioned repeatedly.

So when the Horde destroys Goldshire, which they are constantly doing, everyone in the Alliance (who is not in Goldshire) gives a big cheer.

EDIT: Of course, there are always 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6) Horde in the upstairs room in the Goldshire inn, and THEY are conducting erping as well.

[DarwinOfMind]

Hey I'm on Moon Guard, and there's roleplaying, and even most of it is not erotic role playing.

Of course I play Horde, so we're not all 14 like the alliance, so that's something.

[AZRogue]

I used to love playing my high level toon, ganking people. Those were the days. :) I leveled on a PVP server because I was told it was more difficult, which it is, since your leveling can be interrupted at any time. There's a very real sense of reward for getting shit done in that kind of hostile environment.

As a matter of fact, playing on a PVP server is extremely rewarding and a LOT of fun.

As for killing lowbies, that's rewarding too. It's rewarding in that there's nothing they can, themselves, do about it except get frustrated. The most enjoyment came from those you frustrated and angered so much they would post on your Realm forums to complain about it. Now THAT is satisfaction, soaking up the salty tears and listening happily to the virtual gnashing of teeth while blithely responding with a terse "lrn2ply". Ah, those were the days.

Also fun when they called in their guild for some revenge, thus forcing you to call your guild over, until the whole thing snowballed enough that NO ONE could quest at all in the entire zone without becoming a casualty. Now THOSE were fun times, fun times.

It slowed down once we transformed into a "hardcore" raiding guild. Schedules and DKP and focusing on progression was not for me. It was okay, in moderation, but once it became the primary focus, the shine wore off. I used my shiny new DKP-purchased gear to kill more people and then .... just drifted away.

But even then, with everyone focused on progression, striving for those first boss kills on the server, we still had a Kill On Sight list, as a last memorial to the ancient days when we would be winding our way over to Molten Core only to have the last person stepping in get ganked and then it was on, the rest of the raid forgotten as we wrecked havoc up through the Core to see how long we could own the tunnels enough to ruin some other guild's raiding night, just so they learned their lesson.

Yeah, Mr. T might be a Nightelf Mohawk, but I was a Orc Rogue Jerk, heh.

[Snatch]

As for killing lowbies, that's rewarding too. It's rewarding in that there's nothing they can, themselves, do about it except get frustrated.

Man, I still generate faux-anger thinking about levelling through Stanglethorn Vale. The ganking was terrible! And yet kind of fun too.

I bet if you could break down the number of deaths my Warlock has, at least 30%-40% came from high-level ganking while in Stranglethorn! While I typically don't down the low-levels players elsewhere, in Stanglethorn I make it a rule. Just for the time I had to endure.

[Edena_of_Neith]

It is possible, after all, to survive in World of Warcraft.
At least, that is, to 40th level. That assumes you are playing PvE only, questing and going through instances.

It's just a matter of patience, caution, and care.

For example, in Duskwood there is a constant threat upon the road in the person of one Stitches, a 50th level equivalent golem-like abomination (in AD&D terms, he's around 20th level.) He can be upon the road, anywhere, at any time, and once he comes after you he will not stop as long as you remain on or near the road.
Thus, you must detour into the woods, to go around him, and of course in the woods are undead, and worgen, and spiders, and ...

You have to run down that road in order to conduct Duskwood quests. One must be very careful indeed, as Stitches may well be just ahead in the fog.

[Edena_of_Neith]

In World of Warcraft, the term 'cute, elven maid' takes on a new and terrible meaning.
If you are flagged for combat with the Horde, and you see the 'cute, elven maid' coming, you're history.

Blood elven women are beautiful, though. Beautiful, fey, and terrible (sometimes they aren't terrible, but since you cannot talk with them you don't know until it's too late.)

[Snatch]

It is possible, after all, to survive in World of Warcraft.
At least, that is, to 40th level. That assumes you are playing PvE only, questing and going through instances.


Oh it's very doable. On a PvP server i've gone 30+ levels without dying. That was until I got cocky...

It all depends on your playstyle.

[Snatch]

If you are flagged for combat with the Horde, and you see the 'cute, elven maid' coming, you're history.


Meh - my experience has been different. So many people have chosen female blood elf characters that most of the ones I meet are very good PvPers.

Troll hunters on the other hand..../nightmare for me!

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ok, a tough question (I mean it!)

1 copper piece in World of Warcraft = ? dollars in current money in the IRL United States of America?

[Name Lips]

1 cp in WoW is worth exactly as much as you're able to sell it for in real money.

There is no established conversion rate because you are not allowed to purchase copper/silver/gold directly from Blizzard.

However a quick Google search did find a company willing to sell me 10,000 WoW gold for $70.

It's 100sp to the gold, and 100cp to the silver.

That math works out to about about $0.0000007 per individual copper piece.

[Edena_of_Neith]

That is not what I meant.

-

-

-

I meant: How much would 1 copper piece BUY in the IRL United States, if it was converted to dollars.

For example:

A loaf of bread costs $1.50 here in the United States.
In Stormwind City, a loaf of bread costs 5 copper pieces.

Now, since Westfall, the breadbasket of Stormwind City, is desolate, let's assume that food costs 10 times the price, in this city of 200,000 (it takes a lot of food to feed a city of that size, and I don't exactly see where all that food is coming from) as it would in the IRL United States.

So, that loaf of bread, would cost $15 in the United States, if it were sold in Stormwind City.
Thus, 5 copper pieces = $15.
Thus, 1 copper piece = $3.

If that is true, then:

1 copper piece = $3.
10 copper pieces = $30.
1 silver piece (100 copper pieces) = $300.
10 silver pieces = $3,000.
1 gold piece (100 silver pieces) = $30,000.
10 gold pieces = $300,000.
100 gold pieces = $3,000,000.
1,000 gold pieces (the cost of Cold Weather Flying) = $30,000,000.
5,000 gold pieces (the cost of an Elite Flying Mount) = $150,000,000.
10,000 gold pieces = $3,000,000,000.
15,000 gold pieces (the cost to build a WOW motorcycle) = $4,500,000,000.
20,000 gold pieces (the most money an 80th level character is ever supposed to have) = $6,000,000,000.

[Name Lips]

If we're doing THAT particular mental exercise, you must remember that all of Azeroth is only about 10 miles long. Think about how long it takes to walk from the Eastern Plaguelands down to Booty Bay.

It takes a long time, but it doesn't take months. This fellow (http://www.ytrilynth.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=282) has calculated that Azeroth is only about 9 or 10 miles long.

At that size, everybody can simply walk to Stormwind Keep once a week and pick up a wagonload of 5cp bread. It woud be quite convenient, and little more annoying than our own weekly trips to the grocery store.

And NPCs don't have to worry about being attacked by mobs, since NPCs are effectively invincible. They heal to full instantly unless attacked by a PC.

[Edena_of_Neith]

If we're doing THAT particular mental exercise, you must remember that all of Azeroth is only about 10 miles long. Think about how long it takes to walk from the Eastern Plaguelands down to Booty Bay.

It takes a long time, but it doesn't take months. This fellow (http://www.ytrilynth.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=282) has calculated that Azeroth is only about 9 or 10 miles long.

At that size, everybody can simply walk to Stormwind Keep once a week and pick up a wagonload of 5cp bread. It woud be quite convenient, and little more annoying than our own weekly trips to the grocery store.

And NPCs don't have to worry about being attacked by mobs, since NPCs are effectively invincible. They heal to full instantly unless attacked by a PC.

If you were 60th level or higher, and not flagged for combat with the other faction (Horde/Alliance) then you might make it alive, walking that 10 miles from the north tip of Eastern Kingdoms to the south tip, from Silvermoon City to Booty Bay.
Of course, it's more like 20 miles if you take the road, and you must take the road if you are pulling wagons full of bread.

In which case, you won't make it alive, period. Not even if you are 80th level and wearing all epic items.
Why?
Because you WILL be flagged for combat. The road passes through a number of Alliance and Horde areas that entail combat with the guards, an act that will flag you. After that, the enemy 80th PCs are waiting to pounce.
Food is in short supply everywhere. You don't think you're just going to waltz off with food they need? (Not that they need an excuse like that to kill you: they kill you just because they feel like it.)
So, even if you are an 80th level character with all epic gear, you could not 'pull a wagon of bread' that 10 (or 20, since it's the road) miles down the continent.

(You are going to go around these checkpoints, through the woods? LOL. Try pulling wagonloads of bread through the woods, across bridgeless rivers, over lakes. And some of these checkpoints are also chokepoints, where there is no going around them.)

But let's be nice, and say you are a mountain climber, and can go around the guards.
You are going to pull wagons full of bread, over mountain ranges?
LOL.

Let's be even nicer.
Let's say you had an elite flying mount, a dragon! With the dragon's strength, you can load up his baskets with all that bread, and FLY from one end of the continent to the other.
At 40 mph flight speed, it should be a cinch to fly that short 10 miles!

Think ... again.

You see those flyers behind you, following you? Those are people of the other faction. Flying the 10 miles is a cinch for them, too, and they intend to follow you as far as necessary (since they are willing to chase you across entire zones on foot or horseback, as I have seen, they would most certainly chase you in the air.)
You land, and ... voila, you are not flagged, and can make the delivery!

The enemy faction lands, and kills the NPCs you delivered the bread to.
They then take the bread, load it up, and return it from whence it came.
If you interfere, they kill you.

So, you land IN Stormwind City, right? Surely, they won't follow you there, because it's in the middle of a heavily defended Alliance city, right? (Or, Silvermoon City, if you are Horde.)
Think ... again.

The rogue on the other side who was waiting, backstabs any PCs who were (foolishly) defending the merchants waiting to take the bread.
Meanwhile, the group following you lands and attacks.
If they see they cannot win, they simply DESTROY the bread, before they are killed.
You got them, but they made their point. No bread for Stormwind City (or, Silvermoon City.)

This assumes a RPing or Normal Server.
On a PvP Server, you never manage to pick up the bread shipment.
You are flagged the moment you leave your home zone. The moment you touch down to pick up the bread, the PCs on the other side pounce.

One does *not* simply walk those *mere 10* miles of Eastern Kingdoms or Kalimdor, in World of Warcraft.
Even on a RPing or Normal Server, it's an incredibly dangerous journey, with no hope of making it below 60th level.
On a PvP Server, you'd need a Raid group of 40 characters of 80th level, all of them appropriately geared, to have any chance of making it at all (whether pulling, or not pulling, wagons filled with bread.)

Now, back to the price of that bread ...

[Edena_of_Neith]

Look at Frodo and Sam's predicament in Lord of the Rings.

When they looked out from the Ephael Duath, the Mountains of Shadow, across Gorgoroth to Mount Doom, they were looking at a mountain that was - in a straight line - no more than 40 miles away. Check the map: it was 40 miles, give or take a few miles.
There was a road from where they were looking out, that ran straight down into Gorgoroth, then almost straight towards the Mountain, on it's way to Barad-Dur.

So, technically, Frodo and Sam had a well maintained, well supplied (food and water) road to whisk them that 40 miles to the Mountain, and then they even had another nice road, winding up the mountain, to take them to the Cracks of Doom.

Of course, as it turned out, there were a few complications involving that 40 mile trip. Just a few minor complications, a few problems, a few mitigating circumstances, that caused some inconvenience ...

[Snatch]

On a PvP Server, you'd need a Raid group of 40 characters of 80th level, all of them appropriately geared, to have any chance of making it at all (whether pulling, or not pulling, wagons filled with bread.)

Now, back to the price of that bread ...

You'e severely overstating the effect PvP interactions have on a server. I've run all over th Eastern Kingdoms (as a lvl 80 warlock) and very rarely had any PvP combat. It might have been true in the past, but these days world PvP is rare.

[Edena_of_Neith]

You'e severely overstating the effect PvP interactions have on a server. I've run all over th Eastern Kingdoms (as a lvl 80 warlock) and very rarely had any PvP combat. It might have been true in the past, but these days world PvP is rare.

I'm on Moon Guard, and that's a Rping server. The farthest from a PvP server you can get.

Yet on Moon Guard, you will not survive *in* Stormwind City if you are flagged. Horde rogues are everywhere. Take it from one who knows.
80s stand around, flagged for combat, everywhere in the city, due to the constant Horde attacks.

Goldshire? LOL. The Alliance and Horde have a constant, 'friendly' war in the meadow just outside the Inn. (They have a constant, unfriendly war in the back room inside the inn.)

Sentinel Hill, Darkshire? Nuked every day, repeatedly.
Southshore? Obliterated every day.

The Long Wash? A bloodbath. The ships? Filled with flagged Horde.
Darnassus? Horde gatecrashing every day. (You even see the Horde in Dolanaar now.)

This, on a Rping server that is farthest from PvP. I must wonder just how massive the bloodbath truly is, on the popular Illidan PvP server, or others like it.

In any case, *you* try running the road (on your elite mount) from Silvermoon City to Booty Bay, flagged for combat (Alliance or Horde.) I dare you.
See how far you make it.

Trying to make that trip, with a wagon filled with bread in tow?
LOL.
That bread is going to be very costly indeed.

That is, after you die repeatedly and they won't let you resurrect at your body, you must use the Spirit Healer, which damages your items.
After you die enough, trying to move that bread, you must repair all your items. At 80th level, with epics, that will set you back 20 gold or more.
Since you are going to be attacked and killed a *lot*, and thus have to repair your items numerous times, those repair bills are going to add up.

That loaf of bread is going to end up costing a lot more than any 5 copper pieces ...

[Snatch]

In any case, *you* try running the road (on your elite mount) from Silvermoon City to Booty Bay, flagged for combat (Alliance or Horde.) I dare you.


I'm on Dentarg which is PvP server and can attest to the fact that I have done run from north to south in the Eastern Kingdoms.

I will say though that each server has its own "culture" and that Dentarg is a relatively low population server so YMMV.

[Name Lips]

PCs get ganked. NPCs sometimes get ganked, but not as often. NPCs rarely agro mobs and even more rarely die from doing so, so long as they're not scripted to die.

So NPCs could, concievably, be distributing cheap bread quite easily. Perhaps they do so during "maintenance."

(honestly, I'm just highlighting the silliness of the scenario in the first place. It's a game. It makes no attempt at pretending to be a real world, or even a simulation of one. The ecology is screwed up, the world is tiny, NPCs spend their whole lives in one spot endlessly passing out the same quest over and over again, and the whole world seems to exist only as a playground for a collection of violent, immortal "adventurers."

[Snatch]

(honestly, I'm just highlighting the silliness of the scenario in the first place. It's a game. It makes no attempt at pretending to be a real world, or even a simulation of one. The ecology is screwed up, the world is tiny, NPCs spend their whole lives in one spot endlessly passing out the same quest over and over again, and the whole world seems to exist only as a playground for a collection of violent, immortal "adventurers."

Sounds like every DnD session I've ever been part of! :lol:

[Edena_of_Neith]

Still looking for guesses on how many US dollars = 5 copper pieces (ala: the loaf of bread we've been discussing, costs 5 copper pieces in Stormwind City.)

[Dacke]

Still looking for guesses on how many US dollars = 5 copper pieces (ala: the loaf of bread we've been discussing, costs 5 copper pieces in Stormwind City.)
I believe the only correct answer to that would be Mu.

[Edena_of_Neith]

I believe the only correct answer to that would be Mu.

Mu?

[Name Lips]

Mu?

Mu (http://csarven.ca/mu)

[Schizm]

mu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29).

[Edena_of_Neith]

(chuckles)

Yes, I really need to know.

Then again, prices at the Auction House have nothing to do with even the Fantasy Reality of Azeroth.
20 bolts of wool cloth go for 10 gold pieces. Or, about 10,000 times what you could get from a vendor for it (and vendor prices take into account the extreme wartime shortages, and are outrageously inflated.)

In AD&D terms?
Imagine going 'into town', going to a shop, and the dealer wants 100,000 copper pieces for a very simple, very basic woolen shirt (when the average worker, makes only a few hundred copper pieces in a year. Even a professional craftsman working full time makes less than 100,000 copper, in a year.)
The shop, in question, is jam packed with people eager to pay for the wool.

All the while, about a hundred miles away (2 miles in actual WOW terms), there is a massive source of wool, easy to obtain, just there for the taking, for anyone who wants to bother. High levels not needed (that is, any group of 5th level or higher AD&D characters could easily go there and get the wool.)
All these people in the shop, are 18th level (in AD&D terms) and up. But they cannot be bothered to make the 100 mile trip. Not even though they could magically whisk themselves to the wool source in minutes.

Curiouser and curiouser.
If you want to be a WOW billionaire, no need to do anything special.
Just go to Deadmines or Stockades (which is actually in the city, so no need to go anywhere) and get the wool, sell it at the AH, and you will make more money than any 80th could ever hope to make, per day.

Ala, think of a 30th level WOW character (30th level in WOW, about 5th level in AD&D) making 200 gold pieces a day (or, somewhere between 20,000 and 100,000 gold pieces per day in AD&D terms, depending on interpretation)
Now, THAT'S fantasy come true!

[Name Lips]

You think that's bad? Imagine the cost of weddings! Have you seen the dress prices?

[Hatter]

You think that's bad? Imagine the cost of weddings! Have you seen the dress prices?

Not to mention an Azerothian Diamond Ring.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Well, the level limit in the Old World (the first game without expansions) was 60th level.
Do you think anyone could make it to 60th without dying?

[Dacke]

Of course you could. You'd need quite a bit of luck to do it without running into some random elite or group you couldn't handle, and I certainly wouldn't bet on you doing it on a PVP server, but it's definitely doable.

[Snatch]

Of course you could. You'd need quite a bit of luck to do it without running into some random elite or group you couldn't handle, and I certainly wouldn't bet on you doing it on a PVP server, but it's definitely doable.

In vanilla WoW, there was no way you could make 60 without dying on a PvP server.

[Edena_of_Neith]

How about this PvE? What are your chances there?

[Name Lips]

If you play paranoid, flee when you lose just a third of your health, carefully engage only one foe at at time, and make sure you only fight enemies that are "green" to you, then it is possible, yes. I'd recommend not accepting any quests, that will just distract you from your goal. Just kill whatever the weakest thing is that will give you xp, over and over again.

[Snatch]

How about this PvE? What are your chances there?

The way the game is now? Oh yeah, I could definitley see making 60 without dying. Just avoid the instances and you could do it. On PvE that is.

Although some PvP servers are pretty barren in the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdoor, so you could possibly do it now.

[Scarbonac]

Just kill whatever the weakest thing is that will give you xp, over and over again.

So, South Park Gambit?

[Edena_of_Neith]

I must chuckle wryly about distance in World of Warcraft.
They could - and perhaps they should - make the world many, many times bigger than it is. If they do, they should provide magical means of transportation (such as teleportation portals) to get from Here to There.

For example, In Character, Darkshore is probably more than 250 miles from north to south. About the distance from the California state line to the Canadian border, through Oregon and Washington State.
In reality, it is only about 3 miles from one end to the other.

Now, then again ...

One is 25th level, and one stands at the northern edge of Ashenvale Forest, on the road, looking into Felwood.
Up that road, only about 3 miles away, is Moonglade. Moonglade is a place of absolute serenity and peace, a destination desirable for just about anyone. No monsters, no war, beauty and green and wonder, a sanctuary.

And all you have to do to get to Moonglade, is travel that 3 miles!
3 miles! Why, with even a humble basic mount, one could ride that far in a few minutes!

You're 25th level, and desire to travel that 3 miles, and enjoy Moonglade?

You'd be amazed at just how far, 3 miles, can turn out to be.

(But ... but ... I teleported there during the Lunar Festival, and got the flight path. I can just fly there. Wrong. You Don't Know Any Flight Paths Connected To This One.)

(But ... but ... I can hearth there! Sorry. There is no inn that offers Moonglade as a place to hearth to.)

(But ... but ... I can just die, and as one of the Dead run the distance, and resurrect there! Uh ... no you won't. You can try, and it will be in vain. Try that stunt, and find out for yourself!)

(But ... but ... I'm 50th level, and I'm powerful! I can just run through! Hmmm ... you can try, and the Timbermaw furbolg are waiting en mass for you. Ever hear of attacks from behind and how they stun you, so when the enemy group comes after you, you cannot outrun them?)

(But ... haha ... my friend is 80th, and will escort me up there! Well ... ok ... just how many times do you intend to die when your friend cannot protect you after EVERYTHING in Felwood aggros on you? If you make it through Felwood, is your friend willing to slaughter the Timbermaw (whom she made allies of, through a great deal of work, and now all that will be undone) so you can enjoy the scenary of Moonglade? Hint ... don't bet on getting your friends to help you with this.)

(But ... heh ... I'm 60th level, and friendly with the Timbermaw! I can easily do it. Yeah, well, that's what they intended, no? Moonglade is a place you *earn*, not something you may simply *have.*)

[Varaj]

Edena_of_Neith you really should try EVE. I think you would like it. :angelgrin:

[Edena_of_Neith]

Tell me about EVE, would you, Varaj?

[Varaj]

"EVE takes place in a cluster of stars far from mankind’s original habitat, planet Earth. How far away, and whether or not that cradle of civilization still exists, is a mystery. Humans arrived through a natural wormhole and, gazing up upon an alien sky they had never seen, were completely unable to determine where this new world was located. From the New Eden solar system, where the gate of EVE once led to the old world, humans expanded in all directions at a furious pace, exploring and colonizing rapidly.

Then, unexpectedly and seemingly unprovoked, the EVE gate collapsed in an apocalyptic catastrophe of a scale never before witnessed by the human race, ruining the New Eden system in the process. Thousands of small colonies were left in complete isolation to fend for themselves, cut off from the old world. For millennia they endured, clinging to the brink of extinction, and only a handful managed to survive.

Of those that lasted, five were to rise up and become the major empires that, between them, hold the balance of power in the world of EVE. Today, they are known as the Amarr Empire, the Gallente Federation, the Caldari State, the Minmatar Republic, and the Jovian Empire. Additionally, the world is full of several small, independent factions and states.

For more than a century, the five empires have lived together in relative peace. They’ve continually strived to maintain this peace, as each faction realizes only too well the grave consequences of a massive inter-stellar war. Recent technological breakthroughs in FTL travel, and the ensuing increase in space travelers, have shaken, but not broken, the fragile peace... at least not yet."


EVE is a true sandbox game. There is very little (though that is changing) story driven game play.
It is a player driven game.
We will compare it WoW for most things.
About 90% of all weapons and armor in the game is actually made by players in EVE. Players can truly own and control space.

In WoW you have battlegrounds that reset as soon as the battle is over. The fights are for tokens to grind up for rewards. The fights are limited to a small number of humans.

In EVE the fights are not fought on battlegrounds they are fought in areas that people mean to conquer because they have value. Resources that make those weapons and armor. Battles are not limited in size. The can and do involve hundreds if not thousands of human players as well as be as small as one verses one.

Since EVE is a sandbox game, it isn't all about battle. EVE has the best in game economy out there. Since so much is made by players not everybody fights, people manufacture, mine, mission run, etc.

Politics abound. Diplomacy, trust, betrayal. The whole range.

Skills in EVE are mostly horizontal verses WoW's vertical. That means that a character that is a few weeks old can realistically get out there and fight next to/against characters that have been fighting for years. The advantage that older characters have is flexibility not raw power. (To some degree)

No where is safe in EVE. PVP is always a risk, period. The joke is, "all pvp is consensual in EVE you consent by logging in." Some areas are safer than others but no area is safe.

Content is player driven in EVE. There is a storyline, but very few people follow it. People don't quest. People go out and make stuff happen.

EVE models the real world very closely in economics and politics. More so than any other MMO.

EVE has one instance. You play with everybody else. You often see 30,000 to 45,000 other people logged on. WoW has lots and lots of instances.

Skills are trained in real time in EVE. You don't earn experience. You set a skill and it trains. That leaves you free to enjoy the game and not worry about earning experience.

[Name Lips]

Eve has thousands of star systems which you are free to visit and explore from the first moment you are in the game. The consequences of this freedom rapidly become obvious if you go someplace that certain people consider "theirs."

Some people spend their entire game experience wheeling and dealing on the market, buying low and selling high. Some traders manipulate the market in long-term cycles, buying now and waiting months for prices to go up so they can sell. Others day trade.

The universe is filled with asteroids which can be mined. These resources are the fundamental basis of the crafting economy. Even high-end items require minerals from the most common, low-level asteroids. Everything is in demand. Prices are dictated by the Market.

There are no paces to "vend" loot. You're always selling to another physical, flesh-and-blood player. They might be exploiting you. How much IS that item worth? How do you know? It's all based on your judgement (and your interpretation of the market history tab).

People can warp scramble you, blow up your ship, loot your stuff, mock you in the Local chat, and you laugh it off because it's all part of the game. No, you don't get that ship back. It was expensive (and, by the way, was crafted by another player). If you insured it, you get a payout that will help buy a new one. But your stuff is GONE -- or more precicely, STOLEN. No corpse runs.

Skills are trained in real-time. The good skills can take months to get to. A single level 5 rank of a skill can take 15 days. You can decrease this time by installing implants that increase your attributes. But your implants will be destroyed if you're ever killed. You do not level up. Your attributes do not increase as you play. You cannot spend money to train skills at a faster speed (other than the aforementioned implants, which are tremendously expensive, and at most reduce training time by 20%). You cannot grind skill training. You don't train faster by playing more or having less of a life than the other players.

I have a year plan for my skill training. I'm focusing mainly on mining and industrial skills, with a smattering of combat and trading.

The game has been out for years. Nobody has trained all the skills. There has not been enough time.

And no matter how many skill points you have trained, you still only fly one ship at a time. You might be able to fly battleships and cruisers, or even capital ships and freighters. But the moment you're attacked, the only skills that matter are the ones used for that ship, at that time, with those modules equipped. The other guy might be a 4-month n00b, but in that small pocket of time, in those ships, he might easily outclass your 2 years worth of training.

It's all player-driven. After a few weeks of playing solo, the game will seem kind of shallow and pointless. But after you join a good corp, which is a member of a good alliance, suddenly the game has texture. There are now bad guys and good guys, there is now territory to conquer and defend. Your decisions and actions now matter in the context of a larger narriative. When you get killed, your side is weakened. When you succeed, you carry your friends with you. They benefit from your victories, and actual territory changes hands.

Politics are deadly. A few backroom alliances, a lie here, a twist there... and empires crumble. Look online for the stories. Is that new corp member a spy? Is your financial officer, with access to the corp treasury, a sleeper agent? Will you wake up to find your corp defenseless and enemies at the gate? For what price would YOU betray your comrades?

[Edena_of_Neith]

It's good to see competition in this brand new world of MMORPGs.
I figure it will mean improved technology being brought to bear to produce more truly real imagery in the Second World, more interaction between players made possible, and perhaps true Virtual Reality finally coming to pass.

EVE is clearly a contender with WOW for the gaming audience, and competition spurs innovation, when it comes to anything technological.

As for In Game rules and realities, they will go their merry way, as usual. We saw this in AD&D, long before MMORPGs, or even the internet itself.

-

In my opinion, PvP and Rping are mutual exclusive.
You can have one or the other, but never both. If you have both, they must be in separate games.

Early on in AD&D, PvP was tried. I was around in the late 70s when they tried it. It was a disaster. Feelings were hurt, characters ruined, groups broke up. The idea was abandoned.
Now, WOW brings PvP back with a vengeance. But if you die over and over, everything else loses meaning. No fantasy stories involve dying hundreds of times and returning, not even those involving the undead. The threshhold of belief is passed, and the story loses meaning to the reader.
Thus, rping is lost, because there must be meaning for there to be rping. Rping arose out of minature war games, where one took the part of one of the elite units on the tabletop, and fought for that unit to survive. Later, it evolved into the Character, and the fun of the game came out of one's character and advancing with him or her, and empathizing with him or her - from which the term In Character eventually rose.
If a situation exists where one cannot survive, no matter what you do - and that is the situation in PvP - then the fundamental thing that started the rping ball rolling, is lost.

Or, to put it another way, from a PvE point of view:

Rping or Normal Server, WOW:

Northshire Valley, levels 1 - 5.
Elwynn Forest, levels 6 - 12.
Westfall, levels 10 - 25.
Duskwood, levels 20 - 35.

Now, let's try that again, using the PvP approach:

Northshire Valley, levels 1 - 5.
Elwynn Forest, levels 6 - 12.
Westfall, levels 10 - 25.
Duskwood, levels 80th elite (and you must go in, at 20th level.)

You wouldn't ask a 20th level character to go into Icecrown (levels 78 - 80th), but you would ask them to go into Duskwood (levels 80th elite) and call that reasonable, on a PvP server.

Well, if it's just PvP, then it's reasonable (although considering the amount of violent anger I'm seeing, anger and hatred that borders on insane at times, I must wonder how 'reasonable' it really is ... there is a reason you are not allowed to talk to the Other Side, here ...)

But from a PvE perspective, from a RPing perspective, it makes no sense at all.

So EVE wouldn't work for me, since the entire setting is PvP.
On WOW, only RPing or Normal servers would be any fun for me.

I tried PvP, thought it might be fun. Just as a good game of RISK might be fun (after all, someone wins in any game, right? It's just a game, or so I thought.)
The amount of anger and hatred, and general rudeness, was so astonishing (off any scale I could devise off-hand) that I quickly lost enthusiasm, and eventually I all but fled for it from the PvP scene, never to return.

[Edena_of_Neith]

The amount of anger and hatred I saw in WOW PvP ... what would be an analogy that fits? ...

Recollect the single most violent of all the fights that ever occurred on the old Nutkinland/Nothingland. You decide which of the many terrible fights that occurred, was the most violent and destructive, the most terrible.

Take that, and multiply it by approximately 10.
Then, instead of the anger and hatred involving a few people, imagine it involving tens of thousands of people.
Instead of it going on for only a few weeks, imagine it going on for years.

That's the kind of analogy I would use.

It makes the 4th Edition / Pathfinder Flame War, look like a campfire, compared to PvP's Firebombing of Dresden, Germany.

If you think I exaggerate, I've heard people openly speak of murdering every player on the other team, and murdering their families, and burning their homes down, on a public forum where the whole world can hear them talking.

[Varaj]

EVE handles the death with cloning.
Pretty neat pseudo-science behind it as well.

EVE generates more than it's fair share of angst and drama because of the pvp and there is little rping because people aren't so much worried about story as they are worried about their own personal goals.

There are rp corporations (guilds in WoW terms) out there but for the most part EVE is rp free. :)

WoW doesn't have PvP, hell most MMOs don't have PvP when compared to EVE but EVE doesn't have PvE so it is all a balance.

I tend to agree with you Edena. PvP and PvE do not work well together.

As the developers of EVE say. Harden the fuck up or get out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q

[Edena_of_Neith]

Well, again, I'm a rper, and I derive my fun from rping.
PvP just isn't my thing.

I'll have to pass on EVE.

As the developers of EVE say. Harden the fuck up or get out.

I consider this to be disrespectful to those who buy the product of the designer in question.
I must condemn such disrespect.
Why?
We've seen this attitude before, in Wizards of the Coast and their treatment of the AD&D audience, longtime loyalists to first TSR and then the original WOTC, before WOTC turned on their own.

We saw what that led to. World of Warcraft is soon to have a Magazine. I am told that Pathfinder will have a Magazine.
Where is (the in-paper, sold in bookstores) Dragon Magazine?
For that matter, where is the wealth of 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D material that once flooded hobby shops, and later the internet? You won't find such items now, except on Ebay and in Collector's Stores like Mile High Comics (in other words, you won't find them anywhere in public, or on the internet in any form that is legally retrievable.)

Yes, I must condemn such condescending attitudes. I hope such attitudes do not take EVE down, since I welcome any competition to World of Warcraft.

[Varaj]

The amount of anger and hatred I saw in WOW PvP ... what would be an analogy that fits? ...

Recollect the single most violent of all the fights that ever occurred on the old Nutkinland/Nothingland. You decide which of the many terrible fights that occurred, was the most violent and destructive, the most terrible.

Take that, and multiply it by approximately 10.
Then, instead of the anger and hatred involving a few people, imagine it involving tens of thousands of people.
Instead of it going on for only a few weeks, imagine it going on for years.

That's the kind of analogy I would use.

It makes the 4th Edition / Pathfinder Flame War, look like a campfire, compared to PvP's Firebombing of Dresden, Germany.

If you think I exaggerate, I've heard people openly speak of murdering every player on the other team, and murdering their families, and burning their homes down, on a public forum where the whole world can hear them talking.

Imagine a war going on for 3 years finally ended by the betrayal of one individual.
Two groups had been fighting tooth and nail for three years to destroy each other.
In WoW it would be Horde vs Alliance but in EVE one side could win.
It looked like neither side could get a real advantage but a traitor turned sides and turned off the defenses of the other side allowing invading ships to come in a pre-planned attack.

Undercity wasn't just sacked, it was captured and made the new capital of the Alliance.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Imagine a war going on for 3 years finally ended by the betrayal of one individual.
Two groups had been fighting tooth and nail for three years to destroy each other.
In WoW it would be Horde vs Alliance but in EVE one side could win.
It looked like neither side could get a real advantage but a traitor turned sides and turned off the defenses of the other side allowing invading ships to come in a pre-planned attack.

Undercity wasn't just sacked, it was captured and made the new capital of the Alliance.

(muses)

No more Horde?
You mean we could all finally PvE in peace?
That would be pleasant.

Considering that Arthas has an army that could destroy both the Alliance and the Horde combined (just go to Icecrown and have a nice, long look at said army) the Environmental situation is sorta ... bad.

I suppose the Horde could say the same thing, except in reverse ... except they wouldn't.
Why? They just ... wouldn't. (But don't take my word for it ... ask them ...)

If WOW has a weakness, it is that we cannot put an end to the Horde. Only problem is, if the game allowed such things, they would put an end to us, and the Horde would rule Azeroth. Humans, bronzebeard dwarves, night elves, gnomes, draenei, would all be extinct.
This is a reality that everyone on both sides acknowledges is the truth.

[Varaj]

(muses)

No more Horde?
You mean we could all finally PvE in peace?
That would be pleasant.

Considering that Arthas has an army that could destroy both the Alliance and the Horde combined (just go to Icecrown and have a nice, long look at said army) the Environmental situation is sorta ... bad.

I suppose the Horde could say the same thing, except in reverse ... except they wouldn't.
Why? They just ... wouldn't. (But don't take my word for it ... ask them ...)

If WOW has a weakness, it is that we cannot put an end to the Horde. Only problem is, if the game allowed such things, they would put an end to us, and the Horde would rule Azeroth. Humans, bronzebeard dwarves, night elves, gnomes, draenei, would all be extinct.
This is a reality that everyone on both sides acknowledges is the truth.

PVE in peace, heck no. Some other group would rise up. :)
In EVE if a threat existed that could destroy the Horde and the Alliance as individual sthey would align temporarily; send spies weaken the the enemy,
use psyc ops to demoralize them and recruit their players to destroy them.

A long protracted war would happen. The carebears in the game would love it because they would make a fortune selling weapons and ships to both sides. :D

[Name Lips]

The alliance against which mine is primarily opposed are hardcore role-players. They view themselves as escaped Minmatar slaves who are engaging in gureilla attacks against the Amarr empire and all those affiliated with the "slavers." They accuse me of betraying my people for working with my alliance and have made it quite clear that anyone who willingly works for slavers will never have a place in their alliance (they can view your past affiliations in your history tab). They are relentless and still remember a betrayal 2 years past where my alliance backstabbed them - switching sides in the middle of a large fleet battle to join the Slavers - and pushed them out of several choice systems. Their retribution was 2 years in the planning, and last week they invaded those systems again in force, with large fleets of capital ships, to take their revenge. Now my alliance is cracked, our morale shaken. We do not know if we can muster the strength to take the systems back again. Their stated goal is to wipe our alliance from the stars, and any alliances which form from its ashes, until we are scattered and dissolved, as close a thing to "death" as can occur in the game.

It's funny because they RP and we don't. They mock us in-character in local, and our goal is to get them to break character. Some of them are better RPers than others, but they do try.

As far as death goes, the characters are called "pod pilots" or "capsuleers." They have given up their regular lives on planets and as regular beings to fly ships, and to live in little capsules. The capsules plug into any ship and allow you to fly it. You never leave your pod. But the benefit is that your personality, memories, and so forth are digitally stored. Should your pod ever be destroyed, a clone will be activated and your memories uploaded, effectvely allowing you to be resurrected.

Better clones cost more money. A good clone has enough memory to hold all the skills you have laboriously spent real time training. If you die, and your clone is insufficient, you can lose skill points. Like LOSE them. And have to spend real life time retraining them. This can be very alarming if you lose the skills required to pilot the ships you own. When you die, it is extremely important that you purchase a new clone before you embark again, lest you die with no clone available. You will then be put into a default clone that retains almost none of your skill points. You would have to start over nearly from scratch. It's like in WoW being reduced from 70th level to 10th level. That is a very bad thing.

Most people only make the mistake once, early on. It is traumatic enough that they never forget to set up a new clone ever again.

Eve is not tolerent of mistakes. You can lose a lot, very quickly, if you play unwisely. This is part of why it is a lot less popular than WoW. Most people do not want their mistakes to have lasting consequences. Can you imagine what would happen if you lost your gear when you died in WoW? It is the way the Eve is played, and we like it. Because we accept the risk. We know death is our own fault. We should have prepared better, not gone through that gate, had better intel, been in a larger fleet, or fled when we had the chance. We deserved our defeat, and they earned the spoils of war. And we learn, and next time we will do better.

[Brynja]

why the horde hate?

[Name Lips]

why the horde hate?

They're furries!

Actually, Alliance hates Horde because Horde is better at pvp.

[Edena_of_Neith]

why the horde hate?

More like, a glum, sad, reluctant acceptance of a bitter reality that I didn't want to exist.

At the start, I viewed the Alliance and Horde in WOW as two sides in a RISK or Axis and Allies game. Or at the most serious, two sides in a Chess game.

However, environment heavily dictates behavior, and the designers of WOW have made an explicit point of creating a very dark background environment for the home settings of the Horde. This dark background rubs off on those playing in it.
For example, take Silvermoon City, capital of the Blood Elves, and their homeland, Quel'Thalas (divided between Eversong Woods and the Ghostlands.)

To put it bluntly, this place is Auswitsch just after World War II ended.
It is a land of unburied death, filled with the bones of millions of murdered high elves (fortunately, not shown, but constantly implied.)
All the trees are dying or dead. The animals that remain are all insane.
All of the NPCs are at best, sane in a bitter, violent way, but many of them are as insane as the land itself. The NPCs are extremely discourteous, condescending, sneering, even the paladins who should have been the Champions of the Light.
Or, to put it even more truly: the blood elven NPCs show that the Blood Elves are like dogs with rabies. They have not reached that last, sad, final state of this terminal illness, but they have gone far enough to be constantly violent and have lost their minds (my sincere apology to dogs, who suffer from this lethal and horrible disease, for the comparison. My mother lost a newborn puppy to rabies.)
And if this were not enough, a constant dirge plays, so long as you are in Eversong Woods. A variant plays in the Ghostlands and in Silvermoon City, and it does not stop - ever. The dirge plays on and on, forever, as long as you are in those areas - even if you are Alliance.
Silvermoon City is aestetically unpleasant, a place one could suffocate in, a place that is a clausterphobic's nightmare come true. (Compare it with the open architecture and construction of the old Silvermoon City, or Darnassus.)

But this, is what one comes home to. This, is home. Auswitsch. (Please pardon me if I have the spelling wrong.)

Go elsewhere?
Except for Thunder Bluff, all the other Horde home cities and towns are equally sad and dark.
Horde outposts, like Tarren Mills, Grom'Gol, and Stonard, are equally grim.

The rough and tumble, unaestetic, goblin towns, are paradises in comparison, and these are the nicest places the Horde can ever hope to find.

It IS possible for a Horde character to find a bed. If you barge into Farmer Saldean's house (leave him and his wife alone, and they won't attack) in Westfall, you can actually have a bed to lie down in. (The People's Militia won't see you in there.)
That's more than you can expect anywhere in Orgrimmar, or most other places in the Horde.

Everywhere you go, no matter what you do or why, you feel the Hate.
The Alliance are everywhere, ready to kill you. Approach one of their comfortable and pleasant towns, and they will do just that. (Their guards are not anymore reasonable than Horde guards.)

But go home, and you run into your own people, and they would kill you in a heartbeat, if the game allowed it. They'd be happier to kill you than the Alliance, if that were possible.
Why? Because they would get their kicks out of it, that's why.
You are 80 levels lower than them? They'd really get their kicks out of it, playing turkey shoot with the new characters.

What do you think, having to play and exist within this kind of environment, does to people?
How would it affect a person, who spent his time semi-continuously in Auswitsch?

[Edena_of_Neith]

The grim background, has helped define the players who chose to stay in that environment. (Most fled to the Alliance, but some stuck it out in the Horde, on Moon Guard.)

The nicer Horde people are ... nice. If you can find them, you will find nice people to play with. Simple as that.

Then, there are those who are not nice.
Go to Silvermoon City and listen to General and Trade, and you'll find out what I mean by not nice. Please make sure you didn't eat anything beforehand, since anything you did eat is going to come up. And quickly.
Pleas for courtesy do not work. Instead, the crap is not directed at you. The GMs do nothing.

If you want to listen to vile discussions, involving slandering people, or the worst of bathroom wall talk about homos, and who is a homo, and who is probably a homo, then Silvermoon City is your place.

The general behavior is appalling. Go to Farstrider Square, and talk with the PC paladins who have joined the Blood Knights. Remember the old AD&D restrictions on paladin behavior that we made such a legendary uproar of? Now, see how these paladins conduct themselves.
You might say: these are just kids. I saw 'just kids' play some of the noblest of paladins in AD&D. Here, though, I think the inmates of an Insane Asylum might have the edge on good behavior.

Horde Guilds, are open in their contempt. If you are not level 70, you do not exist. If you are level 70, you are dog food. If you are level 80, you have earned the right to be cannon fodder, but not to be respected in any way.
Horde Guilds are picky in whom they allow in, because they do not want the ghastly discourtesy in their ranks. You must prove to them that you should be allowed in. If you pass an interview, expect strict probation. Expect to be at the bottommost rung of the ladder (with ALL that implies) and hung out to dry, for a very long time after that. It is conceivably possible that, after months or even years, you might make friends or gain general respect, but don't hold your breath.

You are not here to fight the Alliance? Then, what are you doing in the Horde?
PvE? Go join the Alliance! (they would never be so incredibly courteous as to say it that way, though.)
You are a roleplayer? You are ... (insert some rather unthinkable stuff here.)

Those in the Horde who do roleplay, are militant and hard. They have to be. They must exist within this environment of hatred and violence, ferocity and contempt.

You know those Vanir in Conan the Barbarian who screamed and yelled, the crowd roaring in bloodthirsty delight, as Conan killed opponent after opponent in the gladiatorial pit, in the film?
That is the Horde.

Except the slapstick approach that is used when playing dark or evil characters, isn't employed. A deadly serious approach is used instead.

If this serious approach was kept IN GAME only, it would be fine.

But human nature dictates that it spills over into OOC. And that's not ok.
Horrific insults, violent fights, threats (including death threats), and the most foul conversations in general dominate the OOC scene.

Let me put it this way: If we tried it at a face to face AD&D meeting, and behaved that way, it would end in bloodshed and the police being called.

So yes, I am now biased against the Horde.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Yes, they are better at PvP. FAR better. So much better, that comparing them to the Alliance is like comparing a Sherman tank to a Ford Civic.

IF they modified a server, for one day, so that everyone was flagged, regardless of where they were (so, you were flagged in Stormwind City, and even in the Sanctuaries of Shatthrath City and Dalaran), the Horde would sweep the entire server of Moon Guard free of Alliance life.

Alliance characters who attempted to resurrect at their bodies, would find Horde characters humping those bodies (Yes, I mean that literally.)
Alliance characters who thought they could resurrect at graveyards, would find an army of Horde camped at the graveyard, waiting for this.

Alliance characters who fled, as Dead, to remote places of the world, would live a little longer. But the Horde would find them. Like the Terminator, they would not stop, until the mission of exterminating every last Alliance character was complete.

Taking cover in neutral cities like Booty Bay would be useless. The Horde would slaughter the goblins and the Alliance alike.

In the end, only 80th level Alliance rogues, stealthed, would still be alive, hiding out in the wilderness, and alive only as long as they remained stealthed.

And, heh, if you don't believe me, wait until they release the Battle of Gilneas City (which will be much like Stalingrad, from what I hear.)
You can then see it for yourself.
Or go to the Battle of Wintergrasp, and tell those Horde off ... tell them how strong and proud and tough the Alliance is ... and find out the hard way, just what sort of mettle the Horde is truly made of.

Envious? I envy their battle success, yes.
Unfortunately, that success requires a mindset I don't want. It entails paying a price that I'm not willing to pay.

Recently, in Alterac Valley, playing Alliance, I was urged to join a group who went to stand with Vanndar Stormpike (the dwarven high commander there) and not fight in the general battle.
The idea? Let the Horde take the battlefield, but when they came rushing in to take Vanndar, give them a nasty surprise (since Vanndar is so tough, hits so hard, and he has lieutenants.)

In the next game, the Vann Guard, as we were now called, instead held the bridge behind the Stormpike Graveyard.
When the Horde (inevitably) won the battlefield, and came charging onto that bridge, we threw them off. We threw the ENTIRE Horde battlegroup off that bridge, just the 7 of us. We retook the Stormpike Graveyard, then we led the countercharge, and drove them back down the road in slaughter, all the way back to midfield.
We had a fairly good time. We even set up a campfire on the bridge, while we waited for the Horde to arrive, and talked casually.

Don't try this stunt in the Horde. Battles are not for fun. Battles are to be won, and if you are not there strictly for that purpose, then (a lot of truly nasty words, inserted here.)

[Edena_of_Neith]

I hear Garrosh Hellscream is about to become King of the Orcs, one of the Horde Nations.
Read up on Garrosh Hellscream, assuming the name doesn't say it all.

That is the Horde, all the way, in a nutshell.

Heh. If you delight in mindless slaughter, if the lamentation of the children (you killed the women) is best in life, if you truly enjoy playing evil characters, and you can shut out the rudeness and discourtesy around you, then the Horde is for you.

As Garrosh Hellscream himself says in these words, if you are victorious on quests he assigns: You are one tough mother, guy! (That is to say - you are one tough motherfucker, guy!)

The Orcs: BLOOD AND THUNDER! STRENGTH AND HONOR!
The Trolls: What'cha lookin for, monn? You, a-stay away from the Voodoo!
The Tauren: Ah, we've been expecting you! You must learn nature's wisdom, and her ultimate power!
The Forsaken: DEATH TO THE SCOURGE, AND DEATH TO THE LIVING!
The Blood Elves: WE, WILL PERSEVERE! HOLD YOUR HEAD HIGH!
The Goblins: Boy, do I have a deal, for you! Time is Money, friend!

Garrosh Hellscream: YOU ARE ONE TOUGH MOTHERFUCKER, YOU HEAR ME? I LIKE YOU!

Like them or hate them, the Horde are there, the Horde are *here*, and you must live with that fact, in Azeroth.

[DarwinOfMind]

That's not he horde at all..

Now I'll admit we have far too many dark influences in the horde which only joined the horde becuase the allience didn't want them (Forsaken, and Blood Elves) The true horde, Orcs, Trolls and Tauren are free of demon influence, and far less evil than the alliance which are focused on the xenophobic genocidal destruction of horde races.


The real horde is trying to relearn about our ancient customs, trying to find a way to live in balance, and live with nature.

[Edena_of_Neith]

That's not he horde at all..

Now I'll admit we have far too many dark influences in the horde which only joined the horde becuase the allience didn't want them (Forsaken, and Blood Elves) The true horde, Orcs, Trolls and Tauren are free of demon influence, and far less evil than the alliance which are focused on the xenophobic genocidal destruction of horde races.

The real horde is trying to relearn about our ancient customs, trying to find a way to live in balance, and live with nature.

On a rping server, if they allowed cross faction communication, and if there was - somehow - a way to obtain neutral status, I think local Alliance-Horde peace agreements could be reached.
However, Blizzard does not wish this, in a really big way. Their main base is PvP, and if there is peace then obviously that interferes with PvP and what is widely regarded as the intent of the game (rping is considered a small aside in World of Warcraft.)
If Garrosh Hellscream is made King of the Orcs, then that emphasizes the war, and the fact that the war is going to continue. And, I'm hardly holding my breath that they will allow Cross-Faction communication (right now, that's a bannable offense.)

PvP and rping just do not mix. They are polar opposites. My opinion.
Since World of Warcraft is, indeed, World of WARcraft, and they wish to keep it that way (to quote one GM specifically), I cannot see how the Alliance is ever going to do anything other than demonize the Horde more and more and more, and vice versa.

I attempted to play a peaceful Horde character who concentrated on PvE.
However, this is very difficult to do, unless you desire to work completely alone. My experience. You will receive neither appreciation, nor respect, regardless of what you do or how lofty your goals are. Again, my experiences.

It IS true that the Horde could, theoretically, be a peaceful group of peoples. Ala:

The Tauren: (gently) Let's honor nature, honor our world, and honor her peoples.
The Orcs: (respectfully) Honor, integrity, justice, for Azeroth.
The Trolls: (quietly) Unity, peace, and harmony between our peoples.
The Forsaken: (softly) Lordaeron is restored, we are her people, and we welcome back those driven away.
The Blood Elves: (pleasantly) We the high elves are returned, standing with the angelic Sha'tar.
The Goblins: (brightly) We offer a truly honest deal to you!

But don't go into a Horde city and start preaching such things. You'll be laughed out of town.

EDIT: Theoretically, Vanndar Stormpike and Drek'Thar in Alterac Valley could get together and make peace. Just don't hold your breath for it.

[DarwinOfMind]

you are very tough to communicate with Edena...

[Edena_of_Neith]

you are very tough to communicate with Edena...

(chuckles ruefully)

Keep trying. I will try to listen to what you are saying. You know me: Interpersonal communication was never my greatest forte (and I do believe that is a word taken from the French, like most in our lexicon.)

[Edena_of_Neith]

(deletes this)

Ah, nevermind. I just hope they eventually create a comprehensive history book for the setting.

[Brynja]

Dude if you are implying I am LIKE the Horde because I play Horde you are high. The Alliance is a bunch of 12 year olds with bed times, I want to play with adults who want to win battle grounds, get badges and explore content.

I dont want LULZ and WTFSORRY from people.

The blood elves and forsaken are the necessary evil the Horde have to put up with to balance out the alliance draenei. The blood elves are also working on clearing up the demonic influence, in canon we defeated our own Prince in what could be termed traitorous insurrection at TK.

So really....the Alliance I could argue are xenophobic dicks who would not treat with Thrall when they had the chance. Now they might end with Hellscream which honestly many of us Hordeside dont really like either.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Dude if you are implying I am LIKE the Horde because I play Horde you are high. The Alliance is a bunch of 12 year olds with bed times, I want to play with adults who want to win battle grounds, get badges and explore content.

I dont want LULZ and WTFSORRY from people.

The blood elves and forsaken are the necessary evil the Horde have to put up with to balance out the alliance draenei. The blood elves are also working on clearing up the demonic influence, in canon we defeated our own Prince in what could be termed traitorous insurrection at TK.

So really....the Alliance I could argue are xenophobic dicks who would not treat with Thrall when they had the chance. Now they might end with Hellscream which honestly many of us Hordeside dont really like either.

(meant partially humorously, not a dig at you)

There you are. Someone here likes the Horde, and dislikes the Alliance.
I like the Alliance and dislike the Horde.

1 to 1! :)

But remember, we are the people with the beds! (you get to sleep on the stone floors in Orgimmar's inns.)
If that's a problem, you can find a bed at Farmer Saldean's in Westfall. He won't exactly welcome you, but he won't stop you either, and the People's Militia won't see you in there.

Oh, and why should we treat with Thrall?
His people are butchering Ashenvale (where are the so-called noble Tauren with their druidic ways to stop this?) and butchering the Daughters of Cenarius (how could anyone want to kill dryads??) and other nice things like that.
We Alliance, thanks to Jaina, proffered mercy and consideration to Thrall. This is his reward to us, for doing that.
At least Garrosh Hellscream is honest about it!

[Snatch]

(how could anyone want to kill dryads??)

You ever talk to one?

[Edena_of_Neith]

You ever talk to one?

(chuckles)

The dryads in WOW (who look more like exotic centaur from AD&D) have three things they say:

What's Nature's Call?
Is there trouble?
Hi!

What is unfortunate, is that these Daughters of Cenarius are at war with the Horde, because Grom Hellscream - under the dementia of the Blood Lust (and father of Garrosh Hellscream) - slew their father before Thrall could capture him and calm him down.
Thus, if you are a Blood Elf, and had nothing to do with the conflict, you are still the enemy. Because the orcs are considered the enemy, and you are their friend - the friend of my enemy, is my enemy.

Now, I've played Blood Elves, and they have approached the Daughters of Cenarius.
But no Horde character I've ever played has attacked one. When attacked by them, my Horde characters retreated without firing a shot.

I mean, if you're going to destroy the (worthless, good-for-nothing, vile, obnoxious, despicable, and pathetic) Alliance, then you should do it properly:
Burn Stormwind to the ground, pulverize the remains, salt the soil, and leave no survivors (after all, Humans are beyond all redemption.)
Ditto, the Exodar and Darnassus. Ironforge we preserve, since even if the Bronzebeard dwarves are idiots, there is something there which they built that is actually worthwhile (we DEFINITELY kill all the gnomes, though.)

But no self-respecting Horde makes war on gentle, loving, and defenseless girls, which is what the Daughters of Cenarius are (yes, they stab with those little spears, and it's about as effective as a 1st level fighter trying to duel a death knight.)

Sheesh ... I have to wonder if even Garrosh Hellscream would endorse butchering the Daughters of Cenarius.
What's scary, is that he just might do so.

[Edena_of_Neith]

And hey, where are the noble, enlightened Tauren with their noble, enlightened druidical views about nature and preserving nature, when it comes to Ashenvale Forest?
I see the Horde turning Ashenvale Forest into a desert (the Warsong Lumber Camp) and nary a tauren around, to protest what's being done.

Hypocrites.

Mulgore is a pretty nice place, especially by Horde standards (it looks much like eastern New Mexico.)
The tauren are trying to keep their own homeland beautiful, even if they have to beat the heads of a few (incredibly stupid and unauthorized) dwarves who have started a dig there.
But when it comes the former Night Elven lands ... it is ok, for those lands to be burned and trashed? Left as the Plaguelands 2.0?

LOL.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Peace from the Horde, 1.0.

- Blockade Thandol Span.
- Blockade the one bridge into Darkshire.
- Large force to southwestern Westfall to keep watch on the sea.
- Take Grom'gol.
- Take Stonard.
- Take that obnoxious Horde fortress in the Badlands.

End of the Horde problem in the southern two thirds of Eastern Kingdoms (they can have the north - it's all ruined anyways.)

In Kalimdor:

Blockade across Ashenvale, from Silverwing Hold north to the mountains.
Second Blockade at Astranaar.
Expeditionary force at Maestra's Post (against the western Horde base.)
Occupy the Emerald Sanctuary in Felwood.
Blockade at Timbermaw Hold.
Blockade on the Webwinder Path in the Stonetalon Mountains.
Expeditionary force in Desolace.
Expeditionary force in Feralas Forest.
Large reserve force at Auberdine in Darkshore.

The Horde can have the rest. Nobody else wants it anyways (except for the goblins.)
The way the Horde carries on, I'm sure they will make the most of their miserable lands ... they aren't entitled to more, haven't shown that they deserve anything better.

For the Alliance!

[Edena_of_Neith]

Dude if you are implying I am LIKE the Horde because I play Horde you are high. The Alliance is a bunch of 12 year olds with bed times, I want to play with adults who want to win battle grounds, get badges and explore content.

I dont want LULZ and WTFSORRY from people.

The blood elves and forsaken are the necessary evil the Horde have to put up with to balance out the alliance draenei. The blood elves are also working on clearing up the demonic influence, in canon we defeated our own Prince in what could be termed traitorous insurrection at TK.

So really....the Alliance I could argue are xenophobic dicks who would not treat with Thrall when they had the chance. Now they might end with Hellscream which honestly many of us Hordeside dont really like either.

I don't know exactly how to respond to this.

I would hear more of what you have to say, Brynja. Speak up, and I am all ears. I simply wish to hear from you on WOW. (You obviously have strong opinions, and I'd like to hear them. :) Cheers!)

Let me just say that I am not issuing a blanket condemnation of the Horde.
I *am* condemning the Horde who sit around in Silvermoon City, discussing homos all day and all night, turning General and Trade into an unfunny joke.
I know that the better Horde players abhore and disdain such behavior.

Heck, I was there when some very honorable and noble (it was a grim kind of noble, but it was noble) Horde went to pay their respects at the Tomb of Uther the Lightbringer.
We had to kill that idiot night elf who insisted we leave, insisted on attacking people kneeling in reverence with their weapons shealthed. The Alliance who were present, understood, and did not interfere (they could have ... they were high enough in level and there were enough of them.)

And yes, the Horde are better, altogether and all the time, in the Battlegrounds and at PvP.
If it wasn't for the fact the Alliance could take refuge behind not flagging, the Horde would conquer and hold every Alliance city ... yesterday.

And ... why would the orcs turn their backs on Thrall, obviously a capable and wise leader, to embrace Garrosh Hellscream? What we they (and what was Blizzard) thinking??

I don't know how the Forsaken and Blood Elves balance out the Draenei.
The Draenei can be shamans, and shamans are very, very powerful. It is the tauren who counterbalance the draenei in this regard, with their own shaman.
Unless you are referring to Blood Elven paladins, who are all but exiles and lepers amongst their own people - since the ideas of a noble, lofty, honorable knight, is completely at odds with the depraved and ruined people the Blood Elves have become (the Farstriders and Scryers, maybe, excluded from this reality.)
Certainly, the majority of Blood Elven player characters agree, that paladins are merely peddlers, swindlers and idiots, and should be horsewhipped out of Silvermoon City altogether. Why a paladin would fight for these people ... it is like casting pearls before swine.

The Forsaken have some legitimate excuses. Like, they are all undead, along with all the horror and suffering that entails. They are hated by everyone. They live in a cesspool of a land (Tirisfel Glades may once have been beautiful, but now it's a cesspool.) They must deal constantly with the Scarlet Maniacs and the Scourge. And they must fight the Worgen (the werewolves) who will soon be accepted into the Alliance as 'true brothers and sisters in arms'.
They are the rightful people of Lordaeron, and rightfully Lordaeron should be returned to them, and they should be left alone.
But don't tell anyone this, least of all the fanatics who are neighbors on all sides of the Forsaken.

[Dacke]

And ... why would the orcs turn their backs on Thrall, obviously a capable and wise leader, to embrace Garrosh Hellscream? What we they (and what was Blizzard) thinking??

I see two ways of this happening.

The first, more positive view, is that when Cataclysm comes around and Deathwing makes his new entrance, the world gets screwed up. You have things like lava fissures in the Barrens and other places, and the world needs healing. Thrall is not just the Warchief of the Horde, he is also the most powerful shaman on Azeroth, so he's going to step down as Warchief in order to help with the healing.

The second view is that there are significant numbers of orcs who liked the bad old days. That's why the Burning Blade has an easy time recruiting, for example. They see the Blackrock Clan doing well for themselves, and wonder why they can't have some of that. This gives Garrosh a power base. Also, orcish succession seems based on trial by combat. If you were playing Horde before Wrath, you might have seen the repeating event in Orgrimmar where Garrosh challenged Thrall for leadership. The fight was cut short by an attack on Orgrimmar by Scourge forces (which made Thrall agree to an attack on Northrend, which is what Garrosh wanted in the first place), but Garrosh could easily challenge Thrall again.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Well, I will admit, the Blackrock Orcs are doing well.
So, this ... is a remnant of orcs that hung around the area, after the Second War ended? Were missed by the Alliance forces?
And now, harassing their way down into the Redridge Mountains?

(muses)

The Burning Steppes, they are welcome to those. And if they desire to go and fight the insane maniacs known as the Dark Iron Dwarves, all the better. And the dragons, and whelps, and all the other cute things in that region ... we need people to take care of the garbage.

But if they insist on coming into the Redridge Mountains and trying to take over the area, as they are doing, well ...
That is one reason why it's World of WARcraft.
(They make for excellent target practice, when you want to up your skills in weapons, too.)

If the orcs envy these guys, then LOL.

EDIT:

For anyone who doesn't play World of Warcraft, by 'insane maniacs' I mean the Dark Iron dwarves hurl dynamite at you at point blank range, and stand their laughing as you are blown to smithereens.
They do not hit the ground, do not take cover, do not take precautions, do not particularly care if they live or die. They prefer to stand up close, for the best view, as the dynamite goes off. It may take them out, but at least they'll get a good view of you disintegrating. And laughing all the while.
If you want more than a mere taste of this insanity, go to Shadowforge City in Blackrock Spire. Someone on the Blizzard team must have had Dante's Inferno in mind when they created that place. You'll agree, once you've seen it. (Just make sure you are 60th level or higher, and with a group, or you, too, will hear: 'YOU CAN'T HIDE FROM US! NOW BURN!' as the last words in your life.)

These dwarves are comparible to the Norse Nibelungen. In terms of behavior, they make Garrosh Hellscream look like Mr. Rogers.

[Hatter]

To be fair the Blockrock Orcs are backed by Nefarian and the Dark Irons are backed by Ragnaros (in as far as the strange MMO continuity is concerned).

[Edena_of_Neith]

I know about Ragnaros (although it is strange to hear he is backing the Dark Irons - his little explosion is what leveled their capital city and destroyed all the lands around, including theirs.)

But who is this Nefarian?

Oh, and while we are at it: During the Second War, just how did the Dark Iron Dwarves survive the invasion of the Fel Orcs?
The Fel Orcs took Blackrock Spire and everything in it, took the Burning Steppes and Searing Gorge.

We know the Bronzebeard Dwarves survived by hiding in Ironforge, and managing to hold their capital city against a multi-year siege.
I can guess that the Gnomes did the same in Gnomeregan.

But what about Shadowforge City? What about the other Dark Iron settlements?

Did they surrender?
Were they enslaved?
Or did they join the Fel Orcs ... in which case, why didn't the Alliance annihilate them, as it did the Fel Orcs, when they retook the region?

Or did they just flee deep, deep underground, and wait it out, for those long years?

[Hatter]

Nefarian aka Blackwing is the son of Deathwing the Black Dragon aspect. Nasty guy.

[Dacke]

Oh, and while we are at it: During the Second War, just how did the Dark Iron Dwarves survive the invasion of the Fel Orcs?
The Fel Orcs took Blackrock Spire and everything in it, took the Burning Steppes and Searing Gorge.
Blackrock Spire is the above-ground portion of Blackrock Mountain, and is dominated by the Blackrock clan. Blackrock Depths is the below-ground portion, still ruled by the Dark Irons under Ragnaros. The surrounding area (Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes) is being fought over by the two factions, with the Dark Irons having the upper hand in the Gorge (with their major presence in the Cauldron) and the Blackrocks in the Steppes.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Yes, but why didn't the Alliance forces - victoriously driving southward - simply obliterate both of them in the Second War?

[Dacke]

They did a pretty good job kicking the Blackrock clan's asses, driving them from Blackrock Spire. Some escaped, and later regrouped - this was probably when Nefarian took control as well. The Blackrocks also absorbed orcs from other clans who managed to evade Alliance internment.

As for the Dark Irons, they were pretty much absent during the Second War. They probably kept themselves underground.

[Brynja]

I don't know exactly how to respond to this.



Let me just say that I am not issuing a blanket condemnation of the Horde.
I *am* condemning the Horde who sit around in Silvermoon City, discussing homos all day and all night, turning General and Trade into an unfunny joke.
I know that the better Horde players abhore and disdain such behavior.

Heck, I was there when some very honorable and noble (it was a grim kind of noble, but it was noble) Horde went to pay their respects at the Tomb of Uther the Lightbringer.


And yes, the Horde are better, altogether and all the time, in the Battlegrounds and at PvP.
If it wasn't for the fact the Alliance could take refuge behind not flagging, the Horde would conquer and hold every Alliance city ... yesterday.

And ... why would the orcs turn their backs on Thrall, obviously a capable and wise leader, to embrace Garrosh Hellscream? What we they (and what was Blizzard) thinking??

I don't know how the Forsaken and Blood Elves balance out the Draenei.
The Draenei can be shamans, and shamans are very, very powerful. It is the tauren who counterbalance the draenei in this regard, with their own shaman.
Unless you are referring to Blood Elven paladins, who are all but exiles and lepers amongst their own people - since the ideas of a noble, lofty, honorable knight, is completely at odds with the depraved and ruined people the Blood Elves have become (the Farstriders and Scryers, maybe, excluded from this reality.)
Certainly, the majority of Blood Elven player characters agree, that paladins are merely peddlers, swindlers and idiots, and should be horsewhipped out of Silvermoon City altogether. Why a paladin would fight for these people ... it is like casting pearls before swine.

.


Agreed with the stupid turds that sit around in Silvermoon RPing the latest soap opera. They suck and need to return to the Alliance side ASAP.

Our nobility is savage. It is born in blood, wrested from tears and loss, and not for a golden ideal but for survival. Not just any survival, we could easily become the beast, but we choose to be more. That that savage instinct and hone it into a stern proud nobility.

Thrall has had to deal with that dipstick Wrynn. He has worked to see the Bronzebeards Princess Moira returned safely from the Dark Iron dwarves. He told his people to return her safely (it is a quest line). We have made mistakes. Warsong I view as one of them but so have the Alliance- Alterac Valley springs to mind.

Blood Elf Paladins redeemed themselves by turning from their path of imprisoning a naaru and pledging fealthy to A'dal. As for pearls before swine, that would be a typical Alliance response. The road of the paladin is not an easy one and they preach a path to the sindorei who were all but abandoned by the supposed Alliance and their paladins. Kaels inital actions were out of sheer desperation to save his people and not some powerhungry play. I think if anything the Silvermoon paladins have a righteous task in front of them- helping to redeem a lost broke people who are far too proud to ask for help.

[Edena_of_Neith]

If paladins in AD&D and D&D had been like paladins in WOW, I think the Book of Exalted Deeds (D&D 3.5) would have been a smash hit.
Ala, everyone: 'We'll live by the exalted tenets! We promise! Let us have all that power. Please!'

If it were converted into 3rd edition D&D:

A paladin is considered an Exalted Character. Exalted Characters from the Book of Exalted Deeds may, if they have paladin as one of their classes, benefit from all the powers of the paladin, as given below.
If in a standard D&D world, they must adhere to the tenets of the Book of Exalted Deeds.
If on Azeroth, a paladin may behave as the worst knave would, and suffer no penalties whatsoever.

At 1st level, a paladin begins the game with the feats Light Armor Proficient, Medium Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Light Weapon Proficiency, and Martial Weapon Proficiency. (However, the paladin may NEVER used a ranged weapon.)
At 5th level, the paladin gains the feat Heavy Armor Proficiency.

A paladin gains +1 BAB per level, +1 to Fort/Ref/Will saves per level, and gains attacks per round as a fighter would.

At 1st level, the paladin gains the feat Judgement.
So long as the Judgement is up, the paladin - whenever he successfully hits an opponent - regains hit points equal to 2% of his total hit points, rounded all fractions up (use the paladin's original, undamaged hit point total for this calculation.) Thus, if a paladin with 100 hit points strikes 4 times, he regains 8 hit points (2 hit points or 2%, times 4.) If a paladin with a mere 10 hit points strikes once and hits, he would regain 1 hit point (0.2 hit points or 2%, rounded up.)
Also, when the Judgement is first unleashed, it produces a blast of holy light that inflicts Holy damage upon opponents, of 1d3 points of damage per level of the paladin.
A Judgement can be invoked once per every 2 rounds for the purpose of attacking foes. It's healing effects last for 15 minutes or so before they must be renewed.
Anything that increases hit points - anything, period - stacks with this effect. Something that doubled the paladin's hit points, would double the healing caused by his Judgements.
There is a 10% chance of the Judgement pulling a Critical (roll a 19 or 20.) each and every time the paladin hits a foe. If this happens, the healing is doubled, after the rounding up. (For example, the paladin with 10 hit points, regains 2 hit points.) The paladin with 100 hit points who struck 3 times, and all 3 were Criticals, regains 16 hit points.)

A paladin also gains the feat Seal. When activated, this improves the Armor Class of the Paladin and all standing within 30 feet by 2. This ability grows rapidly more powerful with level.

At 2nd level, the paladin gains Lay on Hands Feat. This ability may be used once every 20 minutes, and it fully heals the paladin, or a designated target of the paladin's choice.
Also, at 2nd level, the paladin gains a number of other abilities (those gained from 1st through approximately 15th in WOW.)

At 3rd level, the paladin gains Resurrection. This works like the clerical Resurrection spell from 2nd Edition, 7th level. This ability can be used once per 5 rounds (it takes 3 rounds to cast, and recovering from it takes 2 rounds.) It cannot be used while the paladin is in battle personally, but can otherwise be used in a battle situation. The target resurrected is at 1/10th normal hit points, but is otherwise able to function normally and fully, even resuming combat immediately.
A paladin may resurrect someone an infinite number of times. No loss of constitution or aging or other penalties ever occur. No permission is needed from either the soul or spirit of the deceased, or from the outer planar powers that might otherwise be involved.
At 3rd level, the paladin gains his Warhorse (at 5th level, the paladin gains a Celestial Warhorse, and at 7th level gains a Celestial Pegasus.)

At 3rd level, the paladin also gains a Smite ability, which calls down Holy Wrath (inflicts a combination of Holy and Force damage on enemies) upon any foe within 90 feet. This ability may be used once per 5 rounds.
The ability does 1d3 points of damage per level of the paladin.
Against undead and lower planar outsiders, this ability does double damage, or 1d6 points of damage per level of the paladin.

Around 4th level, the paladin gains the ability to sacrifice himself (he is killed instantly) to protect someone else. The protected person is immune to everything (including Wish and Miracle spells and even contact with a Sphere of Annihilation, but not to direct Divine Intervention) so long as that person takes no offensive actions towards enemies.
This ability can be used any number of times, so long as the paladin himself is resurrected after each casting of this spell.

Paladins gain no feats at 1st level, and no starting feats. Human paladins gain no bonus feats.
But paladins gain 1 feat per level, every level, starting at 2nd level. These feats are arranged in three groups, the paladin choosing freely among the feat paths offered: Protection, Holy, and Retribution.
These feats can greatly increase the power of the paladin, just as feats can greatly increase the power of any character. For example, one Protection Feat offered increases the paladin's armor class by 10%. A paladin with an AC of 30, would gain an AC of 33. A paladin with an AC of 13, would gain an AC of 15.

Armor *never* offsets dexterity bonuses to Armor Class for the paladin, or causes any other kind of hindrance.
No matter what armor the paladin wears, he gains *full* bonuses from dexterity. He can move at *full* movement rate. He is considered completely unencumbered (as per the weightless magical armor of 1st Edition AD&D.) He can even swim, mountain climb, climb ropes, or engage in acrobatics as a gymnast would.
Armor also never interferes with a paladin's vision, even if he is wearing a full helm. It is impossible for armor to inhibit a paladin in any way, period. Armor worn by a paladin makes no noise when he moves, does not glint off the sun or other light sources, never betrays the person wearing it to potential foes in any conceivable way.
Armor worn by a paladin can never be destroyed. It cannot be damaged, either (except over a long period, and this wear and tear is easily repaired by the paladin in question - damage that impairs the armor during the actual course of a battle cannot be inflicted.)
Armor worn by the paladin also cannot be stolen (short of the effects of an artifact/relic, or direct divine intervention. A Wish or Miracle will not work.) The armor and the paladin are inseparable, the two forming a holy bond that is almost unbreakable.

(This takes into account only the paladin abilities up to 20th level or so, in WOW.)

[Edena_of_Neith]

That's based on an extremely limited and incomplete understanding of WOW paladins.
High level paladins (80th level) are capable of astonishing feats, and if specialized in protection seem to be nearly indestructible.

I leave any full extrapolation to AD&D or D&D to someone else.

But I'm sure the Book of Exalted Deeds would have been popular, had Paladins in D&D been so competent!
And the Book of Vile Darkness, too, for the Death Knights, their main rivals.

A paladin in WOW is capable of punching a foe of his level to death.
This is a combination of attack power and strength, I believe.

In 1st and 2nd AD&D terms, this means a paladin of 1st level would inflict 1d6 points of damage with an open hand attack, almost as much as the damage from a long sword would inflict.
A paladin of 10th level, could down a 10th level monster in a single 1st or 2nd edition round, so he would be punching for somewhere around 10d6 points of damage per punch. (In 3rd edition, where everything is speeded up 10 fold, I could not say.)
A paladin's hand (and shoulder, and body) are immune to injury from the incredible force of his own swings, if he does elect to punch. He can punch enemies made of solid metal or stone, as well as those of flesh and blood, with the same efficacy.

All of these abilities would count as Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell-Like, or Spell Powers. But they cannot be negated by counterspells or abilities that stop spell-like powers, with specific exceptions.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Nevermind my complicated post above about WOW paladins. I'll simplify, based on experience so far:

Paladin + Good Items + Protection Talents = Godlike Being

[Hatter]

Feh, my solar exalt could kick a wow paladin's ass any day of the week and twice on sunday.

-my-perfect-defenses-don't-have-cooldowns spikey.

[bondetamp]

meh. A melee class without charge is fundamentally broken, and not in a good way.


Warrior4lyfe, yo!

[Edena_of_Neith]

As I said, if paladins in 3rd Edition D&D had had this kind of power, that Book of Exalted Deeds would have sold a lot more copies!

[Hatter]

As I said, if paladins in 3rd Edition D&D had had this kind of power, that Book of Exalted Deeds would have sold a lot more copies!

Well, if you're going to go for a power fantasy you might as well take it all the way and play Amber.

The game where the most likely way for your character to die is for him to accidentally destroy the universe while he's standing in it.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Actually, the ironic thing here is a paladin (or pretty much anyone else) in WOW can't win. WOW is what we, in AD&D, would call a Killer Dungeon.
There are no winners. Only victims. The mechanics are set up so you cannot win, cannot survive, no matter what you do. Deathtraps exist everywhere, from which there is no escape.

Why they think creating victims is the way to ensure continuity of the game is beyond me.
AD&D was about heroic fantasy, about winning. Not about losing, not about victimization.

The rogue is the only character in WOW who stands a chance. She has an ability known as Stealth, which in AD&D terminology is really a form of Invisibility at Will. This enables the rogue, especially the Night Elven rogue, to survive where nobody else can.
Even there, though, the odds are way, way against survival.

[Schizm]

/bubble
/hearth

hah! lived again!

[Name Lips]

Actually, the ironic thing here is a paladin (or pretty much anyone else) in WOW can't win. WOW is what we, in AD&D, would call a Killer Dungeon.
There are no winners. Only victims. The mechanics are set up so you cannot win, cannot survive, no matter what you do. Deathtraps exist everywhere, from which there is no escape.

Why they think creating victims is the way to ensure continuity of the game is beyond me.
AD&D was about heroic fantasy, about winning. Not about losing, not about victimization.

The rogue is the only character in WOW who stands a chance. She has an ability known as Stealth, which in AD&D terminology is really a form of Invisibility at Will. This enables the rogue, especially the Night Elven rogue, to survive where nobody else can.
Even there, though, the odds are way, way against survival.
It is a Killer Dungeon, yes.

But they've also made death a trivial, momentary inconvenience for all characters everywhere. So "Killer" loses its meaning too.


It's almost... almost.... like WoW is a pointless game designed to suck away your time with no end and no meaningful rewards.

[Edena_of_Neith]

And yet, although they try to make death 'free', truly nothing is 'free'. People just don't work like that.

Instead, what you get are a bunch of angry, bitter high level characters (and/or, their players.)
They feel powerless, they feel helpless, they feel they have accomplished nothing, they 'want you to suffer as they have suffered', they think 'you should have to learn it all the hard way also', they are often very rude.

I don't know if the players of WOW are inherently like this, or the game made them so, or both. But there it is.
PvP should have been 'just fun' in the sense of chess, bridge, or RISK. But to these people, it is not 'just fun.' If you go and attempt PvP to have 'just fun', your own side will engage you in verbal abuse, until they drive you out of the PvP event.

I do not approve. In fact, I would call it sick. (I don't call the world they created sick, or the concepts, but the exploitation policy set by those in charge who desire money, and seem to think fostering a victim mentality is the way to get money, is sick.)

Now recently, they MASSIVELY decreased the difficulty for levels 1st through 15th in WOW (even to the point of absurdity in the starting areas.)
As a result, levels 1st through 15th are actually fun. But the fun ends, and the unwinnable grind behinds, at 16th.
So, it's more of a 'teaser card' situation (your credit card initial APR is 5% for the first 4 months, then it jumps to 20% and stays there.)

Will they improve the situation for the whole game - levels 1st through 85th - in Cataclysm?

I don't know.

[Hatter]

It's a safe bet that they will do everything they can to keep you playing for as long as possible.

[Edena_of_Neith]

It's a safe bet that they will do everything they can to keep you playing for as long as possible.

I agree.
Now, if they could find a formula for keeping their audience, while making their audience feel good, feel like they've accomplished something, feel like successes, then they will have gotten somewhere.

In AD&D and D&D, if a DM treated his players like WOW treats theirs, everyone would get up and walk away from the table (that would be the most courteous response ... it could end in a much nastier fashion than that.)

Healing Potions have a '2 minute' cooldown period? LOL.
That would work, if they did not have carefully placed and very subtle death traps everywhere, for which chain drinking healing potions is the only way out.

They may not be real good at creating a game for success, but they are real good at creating cooldowns, and situations for which there is No Way Out. In short, they are real good at creating Victims.

[Hatter]

I really never found it to be that difficult even before they made the game casual friendly.

[Name Lips]

WoW has struck an unusual balance. They're just addictive enough to attract huge crowds, but just casual enough that you can log in for 30 minutes and not feel like you've totally wasted your time. And it's just simple enough to appeal to the masses, and just complex enough to keep the hardcore gamers coming.

But it's no longer even marginally about the world or story or lore. It's all kinda there, but nobody really cares that much. Nobody has characters that have personalities or stories behind them -- they're just a level X class with Y spec and Z equipment.

Is that wrong? It's just a video game after all. Tabletop gamers have always scoffed at video game so-called "RPGs" -- as though you could ever really adopt the role of a character in such a limited and pre-constructed virtual world. But at least most single-player games have a set story -- you start at the beginning, progress to the end, and then you stop playing. Your character was in fact a character in a story.

In MMOs, no matter how hard they try to have a "well-written" or "realistic" world, with "rich lore and history" and characters who are "heroes and feel like they have a real place in history" really can't do that. Your character never matters, and never will.

[SpikeyFreak]

In MMOs, no matter how hard they try to have a "well-written" or "realistic" world, with "rich lore and history" and characters who are "heroes and feel like they have a real place in history" really can't do that. Your character never matters, and never will.
Because your character really matters in other games?

The first time you do down some of the end game raids, it does feel like your character is accomplishing something. A lot of them have pretty epic scripted sequences and in-game movies.

I loved ice-crown citadel, even though I never got very far before I got sick of the game in general. Stepping off the ship and watching the Saurfang movie for the first time was pretty cool, as was killing Prof. Putricide's pets and then having to give him a go, and he's mutating and changing the whole time. Hell, the ship battle is pretty damn awesome. And the 3 newer 5-man instances were stuffed with story. Well, I guess Forge of Souls wasn't, but James Brown!

It's very similar to other games. If you pay attention, there is tons of backstory going on, the entire time you're questing and raiding. If you don't pay attention and just kill everything, then you won't see it.

--Ex-Wow-Addict Spikey

[Varaj]

Because your character really matters in other games?

The first time you do down some of the end game raids, it does feel like your character is accomplishing something. A lot of them have pretty epic scripted sequences and in-game movies.

I loved ice-crown citadel, even though I never got very far before I got sick of the game in general. Stepping off the ship and watching the Saurfang movie for the first time was pretty cool, as was killing Prof. Putricide's pets and then having to give him a go, and he's mutating and changing the whole time. Hell, the ship battle is pretty damn awesome. And the 3 newer 5-man instances were stuffed with story. Well, I guess Forge of Souls wasn't, but James Brown!

It's very similar to other games. If you pay attention, there is tons of backstory going on, the entire time you're questing and raiding. If you don't pay attention and just kill everything, then you won't see it.

--Ex-Wow-Addict Spikey

I think he may have been referring to the Ground Hog Day effect. At least with other CRPG there are some permanent changes in them after an encounter. MMORPG don't do those sort of things so other players can play the content.

Personally I there are ways to get around Ground Hog Day in MMORPGs but they are a little harder to implement.

[Name Lips]

Yeah, in your typical single-player RPG game, you choose a character who progresses through a story. He is a main character who proceeds through a plot -- beginning, middle, and end. Typically you defeat the final boss or solve the final puzzle, then the game is over. If you want to start a new game with a new character, you can. But the character that won simply isn't played anymore. He has completed his story. The new character will again be the main character, making his mark on the world, and in his universe your original character simply never existed.

[SpikeyFreak]

Wrath of the Lich King implemented a new feature that does exactly what you're talking about.

After *I* complete some quests, the world permanently changes for me. The Wrathgate quest line is an example, and it's pretty awesome.

Seriously, there's an ASSLOAD of plot in WoW. Yeah, most of the time the world doesn't change, but there are changes that take place. But how is that different from replaying a normal CRPG?

The story is there. Most people don't care, it's true, but there is a progressing plot in WoW. Almost every major patch moves the story line forward.

-- :tongue: Spikey

[Varaj]

Wrath of the Lich King implemented a new feature that does exactly what you're talking about.

After *I* complete some quests, the world permanently changes for me. The Wrathgate quest line is an example, and it's pretty awesome.

Seriously, there's an ASSLOAD of plot in WoW. Yeah, most of the time the world doesn't change, but there are changes that take place. But how is that different from replaying a normal CRPG?

The story is there. Most people don't care, it's true, but there is a progressing plot in WoW. Almost every major patch moves the story line forward.

-- :tongue: Spikey

Glad they are implementing those sort of things.
100% agree this is a progressive plot in MMOs, they just aren't player dependent.

[Dacke]

I think he may have been referring to the Ground Hog Day effect. At least with other CRPG there are some permanent changes in them after an encounter. MMORPG don't do those sort of things so other players can play the content.

Personally I there are ways to get around Ground Hog Day in MMORPGs but they are a little harder to implement.
As Spikey said, they use a technique called phasing to do this in some places in Wrath. For example, in Icecrown you help conquer both a place called Crusader's Peak and one called Shadow Vault. When you're done with them, they become friendly bases you can fly to, repair gear, and (in Shadow Vault at least) get some daily quests.

The problem with overusing this feature is that it means experienced players can't help their buddies do the content - and some of the phasing-based quests are group quests, so they're hard to do without the help. My guild also occasionally has trouble when we're about to go raiding in Icecrown Citadel, since the entrance is in an area affected by phasing. Since some of my guildmates aren't as quest-obsessive as I am, they've ignored the phasing quests there, which means I can't see them in that area. And since you need two people to cooperate in order to use summoning stones, you need to get two people in the group that are at the same stage of questing to do it.

All things considered, phasing is a very useful tool they can use to aid immersion. But it has to be used with care.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Armor Class in WOW ... a puzzling concept.

In 1st edition AD&D, if you were 1st level, were wearing no armor, had no dexterity bonuses, and no other buffs (as they call them now), you were Armor Class 10.
A 1st level monster (known then as a 1 Hit Die monster) could hit you on a roll of 9 or better on a d20.

In World of Warcraft, if you are wearing enough armor, this armor absorbs 50% of the incoming damage. Assuming no other buffs or modifications, and the armor ... absorbs 50% of the incoming damage.
You are able, generally, to dodge some blows. But not many, not against a creature of your level, barring buffs, talents, or the like.
Monsters may miss with their swing. But a monster of your level, tends to hit you, most of the time, barring buffs or other circumstances.

So, if you are in World of Warcraft, and you have enough armor to stop 50% of the incoming damage, that amounts to an AD&D AC of somewhere between 10 and 5 (10 and 15 in 3rd Edition D&D.)

However, I'll go with Armor Class 10. Let's say Armor Class 10.

So, from this, I can extrapolate:

WOW armor that stops 60% of the damage = AD&D AC 8 (AC 12 in 3rd Edition D&D)
WOW armor that stops 70% of the damage = AD&D AC 6 (AC 14)
WOW armor that stops 80% of the damage = AD&D AC 4 (AC 16)
WOW armor that stops 90% of the damage = AD&D AC 2 (AC 18)

This, against a creature, of the same level as you are, in WOW.
If the creature is higher in level than you, your AC is lower.
If the creature is lower in level than you, your AC is higher.
If the creature is level skull to you, then you have no AC against it, regardless of your armor. (And it has an AC, that is invincible against you.)

-

It happens, thus, that armor in WOW protects far less than armor in AD&D.

Cloth Armor grants 10% to 15% protection (AC 10, with a penalty to AC of around 7 to 8 additional points)
Leather Armor grants 20% to 25% protection (AC 10, with a penalty of around 5 to 6 points)
Mail Armor grants 30% to 35% protection (AC 10, with a penalty of 3 to 4 points.)
Scale Mail Armor grants 35% to 40% protection (AC 10, with a penalty of 2 to 3 points)
Brigantine Armor grants 40% to 50% protection (AC 10, with a penalty of 0 to 2 points)

Only Plate Armor actually offers greater than 50% protection, and thus grants you an AC better than someone in D&D wearing nothing but ordinary clothing, with no dexterity bonus (AC 10.)

[Hatter]

Armor in D&D is avoidance and armor in WoW is absorption, they are radically different. Also, any tank will tell you that avoidance in WoW is a big deal and balancing avoidance and absorption is part of the science of tanking.

[Schizm]

Armor in D&D is avoidance and armor in WoW is absorption, they are radically different. Also, any tank will tell you that avoidance in WoW is a big deal and balancing avoidance and absorption plastering on as much of both as possible is part of the science of tanking.

fifm.

[Edena_of_Neith]

In first and second edition AD&D, if you could obtain an Armor Class of -2 (Full Plate Armor + Shield + 18 Dexterity) or better, you were set.
The monsters needed a natural 20 to hit you. (They'd need a second roll of 20 on a d20 to inflict a critical.) You could take on a giant 'mob' of monsters, and win against them.

This level of protection is not possible to obtain in WOW, as far as I know. (If there is a way to obtain it, please let me know ...)
To do it, you'd have to have enough armor to absorb 95% or more of the incoming damage.

LOL. If you were a Protection or Holy Paladin in WOW, and your armor stopped 95% of the incoming damage, you could stand there for half of forever, fighting. A regular Rock of Gibraltor, you'd be.
At 80th level, your armor would be better than this, against most things, since most things are below 80th level - and your armor improves against things lower in level than you.
Thus, you could walk around Azeroth, kicking everything's butt, as you please. (Speculation ... I've never played a character in WOW who could wear Plate Armor.)

[Varaj]

Once again Edena you are mixing up damage reduction and damage avoidance. They are both ways to mitigate damage but the calculations of change in damage received is a little more complicated than that and in effect you are comparing apples to oranges.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Once again Edena you are mixing up damage reduction and damage avoidance. They are both ways to mitigate damage but the calculations of change in damage received is a little more complicated than that and in effect you are comparing apples to oranges.

It is apples and oranges. I'm merely trying to do a rough comparison.

[Varaj]

It is apples and oranges. I'm merely trying to do a rough comparison.

Any comparison is not rough it is wrong.