Homage to my dark master

[shiningbrow]

I have become a tea drinker in the past couple of years, but every now and then, I regress to my former coffee addiction. On those occasions, when I do indulge, it's with a very strong cup of espresso or dark roast so strong that spoons disappear completely when submerged under the surface.

Under the effect of coffee, I undergo a strong transformation, bordering on euphoria. Suddenly, I become focused and really crank out work, regardless of the little sleep I've had. Here is to that magical dark bean that has the capacity to completely alter the trajectory of a normal day. I find that having the occasional cup of coffee is one of life's great pleasures. Naturally, I write this under its influence. I wonder how the first human figured out that ferreting out the pit of this fruit, roasting it and making an infusion would be a good idea? Did they happen on some frisky goats who had been eating it or something?

A good cup of coffee makes me think of Carmen Miranda zipping around with a basket of fruit on her head, while admiring her relationship with the laws of physics. What is your relationship with coffee?

[The Winslow]

I wonder how the first human figured out that ferreting out the pit of this fruit, roasting it and making an infusion would be a good idea? Did they happen on some frisky goats who had been eating it or something?

I'm more intrigued by olives. That's a fruit that's inedible unless you let it marinate in salt water for a long while. Imagine that. You discover a tree that bears fruits, and the fruits taste awful. Do you A: Ignore it? B: Let it ferment in brine for months and try eating it again?

Let's say nothing about the early detergents made from urine (a cheap, natural source of ammonia). There's a logical leap between "I want to clean that cloth" and "I'm going to pour pee on it" that I just can't see.

Past generations were far more resourceful than we often imagine.



As for my relationship with coffee, it's kinda tenuous. I prefer tea. Especially with honey rather than sugar, it's great when you feel sick and cough all day long.

[shiningbrow]

How about a nice burger soaked in ammonia? That, if nothing else, is enough to give one pause about eating anything other than Niman Ranch (or other organically produced) beef!

I think that Turkey Buzzards and other carrion-eating species regularly urinate on their feet as a disinfectant. It helps kill the bacteria they might obtain from wading around on top of dead flesh. (So much for coffee! Incidentally isn't there some weird chemical that some coffees are treated with in order to decaffeinate it?)

[Pigs in Space]

I tend to mumble and punch people a lot while screaming abuse until I've had a coffee.

So I drink it every few hours, for the good of humanity.

[Lady Fury]

I can't stand the smell of coffee and you couldn't pay me enough to drink it. Even mocha flavored foods make me cringe. I'm probably one of the few people in America that doesn't have a coffee maker or any coffee products in my home.

[Morbidity]

Morbs + one cup of coffee = 36 hours without sleep + 8 hours with a racing pulse, such that friend who was a doctor sat there for 8 hours waiting for me to have a heart attack + flat mate who was a doctor (different person from previously mentioned friend) demanding that my boyfriend tell her what evil drugs he'd given me.

Morbs won't be having another cup of coffee.

[TiQuinn]

Coffee, strong with a lot of sugar. That's my morning ritual. Tea is something best drunk iced, if at all. Tea is foul, nasty stuff.

[AriesOmega]

Death before decaff!!!

To strip coffee of it's beautiful, Gawd given beauty called caffine you the process involves turpentine washing. Needless to say for that reason alone I don't drink decaff.

For me coffe drinking is a cultural thing. I been drinking it in one form or another since I was like 9 or 10...maybe even earlier. They say it stunts your growth...I am 6'1...I don't think so.

[Varaj]

A properly brewed tea has just as much caffeine as coffee. If it doesn't you're doing it wrong. :tongue:

[TiQuinn]

A properly brewed tea has just as much caffeine as coffee. If it doesn't you're doing it wrong. :tongue:

It still tastes like ass. :tongue:

[Brynja]

I never had coffee as a kid.

I always had tea and milk with a bit of suger. I became an adult in the house when I drank it black.

I rebelled and became a coffee drinker.

[AriesOmega]

I drink it either hot, black and bitter or a little cream to lighten it and a packet of Splenda to sweeten it just a bit.

Here is something crazy for you. Out in the field as a Soldier we'd make coffee in various ways...but when you couldn't for whatever reason but you needed Java induced buzz to keep your eyes open we had ways.

We'd take the coffee packet ouf of the Meals Ready to Eat (MRE) rations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meal,_Ready-to-Eat) and pack it into lip like a pinch of dip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipping_tobacco). Let me say from experiance that two of those packets with a dash of the hot sauce from the MRE will get you up and running! You will be wired for friggin sound :D at least long enough to do a patrol...or two...or seven.

[Hatter]

I like the smell of coffee, but drinking it makes me irritable so I drink tea instead. Much better.

[Cat of Ulthar]

It still tastes like ass. :tongue:

You would know.:tongue:

[TiQuinn]

You would know.:tongue:

ZING! :lol:

[Dayknight]

Two cups in the morning. Any more or less there will be trouble.

[Cat of Ulthar]

Yup. One girl, two cups.

[Brynja]

NOOOO!

[The Winslow]

What a shitty thing to say.

[Lady_Acoma]

Made me retch.

[shiningbrow]

Death before decaff!!!

To strip coffee of it's beautiful, Gawd given beauty called caffine you the process involves turpentine washing. Needless to say for that reason alone I don't drink decaff.

For me coffe drinking is a cultural thing. I been drinking it in one form or another since I was like 9 or 10...maybe even earlier. They say it stunts your growth...I am 6'1...I don't think so.


I don't drink decaf either, AO, but there is decaf available that is derived from water processing. They discovered this decaffeination process I believe when a shipment of beans got inundated accidentally with salt water. It's alot less toxic than the turpentine washing you refer to...

Varaj, I'm right there with you in the strong tea dept. Oddly enough, when I was in England, they really drank it weak. I guess they drink so much of it that they only make mild infusions. I drink tea the strength of strong coffee, steeped for 10 min. at least. Then I can face the day. Now, I'm going to make a second cup!

[Snatch]

What is your relationship with coffee?

None. I can't stand the taste of it.

[bunny]

After a big heavy dinner, especially at a nice restaurant, it's the perfect pick me up. Especially with a rich dessert.

Meeting friends socially I'll always have a coffee and I associate hanging out down town with having coffee.

At home or in the morning, I prefer tea. Easy to make, steep to your desired caffienation level and enjoy. MmmmmmMmmmm.

[Name Lips]

Caffeine does nothing for me. No zing, no energy, no wakefullness. Coffee is just a pleasent-tasting hot drink. Enjoyable in the morning, evening, or cold weather - just like hot chocolate or tea. Apparently caffeine immunity is a not-uncommon side effect of ADD.

[Lady_Acoma]

Actually a hot cup of coffee or tea or something can put me to sleep. But that may just be because I chill out with warm liquids and I may have bumped my tolerance way up or something through drinking a lot of mountain dew at times... But that doesn't seem to hit me either, I don't know if it ever did.

[Pigs in Space]

They say it stunts your growth...I am 6'1...I don't think so.
Who says that? Bullshit.

Actually a hot cup of coffee or tea or something can put me to sleep. But that may just be because I chill out with warm liquids and I may have bumped my tolerance way up or something through drinking a lot of mountain dew at times... But that doesn't seem to hit me either, I don't know if it ever did.

It puts me to sleep too. But I need it to wake up.

[bunny]

Who says that? Bullshit.

It's been long proven that caffeine depletes the body's stores of calcium. If an excess of caffeine is consumed at a time that the body is in need of a lot of calcium --like when bones are growing-- the theory is that the bones cannot reach their full length.

[Ancalagon]

I am physically addicted to coffee. I need one cup a day - and I rarely have more than that. But if I don't have that single cup of coffee in the morning, I get headaches by noon. And I never have drank it heavily! dang it...

[Pigs in Space]

It's been long proven that caffeine depletes the body's stores of calcium. If an excess of caffeine is consumed at a time that the body is in need of a lot of calcium --like when bones are growing-- the theory is that the bones cannot reach their full length.

Well, I was drinking coffee when I was in my mothers womb. Lots of it. She had to jam a straw through her navel to stop me kicking.

It's true, there are photos.

So I wonder, is that just a crap theory like evolution?

[Harry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jVAIitIP-4

[Varaj]

It's been long proven that caffeine depletes the body's stores of calcium.

O really?

[shiningbrow]

Sadly, it's true.
Some absorbed calcium is eliminated from the body in urine, feces, and sweat. This amount is affected by such factors as the following:
Sodium, potassium, and protein intakes: high intakes of sodium and protein increase calcium excretion [16,17]. Adding more potassium to a high-sodium diet might help decrease calcium excretion, particularly in postmenopausal women [18,19].
Caffeine intake: this stimulant in coffee and tea can modestly increase calcium excretion and reduce absorption [20]. One cup of regular brewed coffee, for example, causes a loss of only 2-3 mg of calcium [17]. Moderate caffeine consumption (1 cup of coffee or 2 cups of tea per day) in young women has no negative effects on bone [21].
Alcohol intake: alcohol intake can affect calcium status by reducing its absorption [22] and by inhibiting enzymes in the liver that help convert vitamin D to its active form [10]. However, the amount of alcohol required to affect calcium status and whether moderate alcohol consumption is helpful or harmful to bone is unknown.
Phosphorus intake: the effect of this mineral on calcium excretion is minimal. Several observational studies suggest that consumption of carbonated soft drinks with high levels of phosphate is associated with reduced bone mass and increased fracture risk. However, the effect is probably due to replacing milk with soda rather than the phosphorus itself [23,24].
Fruit and vegetable intakes: these foods, when metabolized, shift the acid/base balance of the body towards the alkaline by producing bicarbonate, which reduces calcium loss. Metabolic acids produced by diets high in protein and cereal grains, for example, cause bone to release minerals such as calcium and phosphates and alkaline salts that neutralize the excess acid. In one experiment, women ≥50 years of age who took supplements of bicarbonate showed significant reductions in calcium excretion, indicating reduced bone resorption [25].

From NIH, http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/calcium.asp

[Varaj]

Sadly, it's true.


From NIH, http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/calcium.asp

Huge difference between preventing a small amount of absorption and "depletes the body's stores of calcium".
The amount of calcium not absorbed by a cup of coffee, as you quoted, in young women has no negative effects on bone. Drink more coffee and offset it with a tablespoon of milk.
A whole tablespoon is all it takes, such damage caffeine does. :rolleyes:

Again, preventing absorption is not the same as depleting stores.
Amount not absorbed is trivial.

[Brynja]

Over time I wonder would it have negative effects not so easily negated? Tho I think we would all berunning around hunchbacked if that were so.

[Varaj]

Over time I wonder would it have negative effects not so easily negated? Tho I think we would all berunning around hunchbacked if that were so.

From the study referenced caffeine intake, over a life time, had a negative effect on bone density relevant to women with inadequate calcium intakes.

The study has been since criticized a few times because the amount of bone density difference between caffeine drinkers with inadequate calcium intake and non-caffeine drinkers with inadequate calcium intake was not significant.

Bone density for caffeine drinkers with normal calcium intake was, big surprise, normal.

[shiningbrow]

I think it's not the same for all populations across the board. For post-menopausal women, even without caffeine, the depletion rates exceed intake, and in such cases, caffeine certainly exacerbates that problem. And for many other groups, broken down by age and gender, most didn't include enough calcium in their diets. I believe Starbucks is tackling this problem head on by including vast amounts of milk and cream in their coffee beverages.

I put a little half and half in my tea or coffee. It helps coat the stomach and I guess limits bone loss.

I once had a professor who opined that "strawberry ice cream is good for you, because it gives you pleasure." That it helps replace calcium to offset one's coffee jags, is just icing on the cake. ;)

[AriesOmega]

The Inca, Aztec and Mayan drank coffee right? People of mestizo (http://www.kaytastrophe.com/vb/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2 Fwiki%2FMestizo) ancestry tend to be short and drink coffee...has to be some truth to all that right :D

My father is like 5'6 or so and in Costa Rica he tells me that it's normal to see a 6 year old drinking coffee...mind you diluted but still coffee. My mother claims she has never met a tall "tico" (http://www.kaytastrophe.com/vb/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2 Fwiki%2FTico). ...my Mom claims my dad was the tallest "tico" she could find over there and thats why she married him. ;)

[The Winslow]

For post-menopausal women

Hold that thought. Let's go back to the origin of this caffeine vs. calcium tangent:

They say it stunts your growth...

I don't have any study or report to cite, but I think the vast majority of post-menopausal women have finished their growth already anyway.

[shiningbrow]

I'm sticking to the strawberry ice cream remedy, myself.

[Varaj]

I think it's not the same for all populations across the board. For post-menopausal women, even without caffeine, the depletion rates exceed intake, and in such cases, caffeine certainly exacerbates that problem. And for many other groups, broken down by age and gender, most didn't include enough calcium in their diets. I believe Starbucks is tackling this problem head on by including vast amounts of milk and cream in their coffee beverages.


Without a doubt in post menopausal women large amounts of caffeine not offset by calcium can accelerate bone loss since you have access to less absorption of calcium.
The thing is if you offset if with additional calcium it has no effect. Since all the caffeine does is reduce absorption all you have to do is increase calcium uptake. For any given individual the amount of uptake may differ.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/60/4/573

The effects of caffeine consumption on rates of change in bone mineral density (BMD) were examined in 205 healthy, nonsmoking, postmenopausal women. BMD of the spine and total body were measured by dual-energy x- ray absorptiometry, and dietary intakes by food-frequency questionnaire. Among women with calcium intakes above the median (744 mg/d), 1-y rates of bone change--adjusted for years since menopause, body mass index, physical activity, and baseline BMD--did not differ by caffeine intake. However, among women consuming less calcium, those with the highest caffeine intakes (> 450 mg/d) had significantly more bone loss (ANCOVA, P < 0.05) than did women consuming less caffeine (0- 171 and 182-419 mg/d). Percent change in BMD by lowest to highest tertile of caffeine consumption was 0.26 +/- 2.74, 0.70 +/- 2.70, and - 1.36 +/- 2.70 at the spine and -0.19 +/- 1.24, 0.23 +/- 1.23, and -0.68 +/- 1.25 at the total body. Daily consumption of caffeine in amounts equal to or greater than that obtained from about two to three servings of brewed coffee may accelerate bone loss from the spine and total body in women with calcium intakes below the recommended dietary allowance of 800 mg.

[AriesOmega]

Hold that thought. Let's go back to the origin of this caffeine vs. calcium tangent:



I don't have any study or report to cite, but I think the vast majority of post-menopausal women have finished their growth already anyway.


I don't have any study or report to cite to be honest. My mother who was a nurse use to give me calcium supplements as a kid thinking I needed it from drinking coffee as a kid.

Also while I was in the Army a nutritionist came down and my platoon about eating right while you are deployed and all and talked about coffee and stated that. I felt if that was true then why am I 6'2 and have two short parents? I drank coffee like a fiend...worst then then now.

So...I called bullshit on her and was promptly chastized by my LT for doing so in public. I cited that I drank lots of coffee as a kid and the nutritionist look at me and said..."Well Specialist, you seem to be the exception then"....I thought..."yeah...whatever".

Incidently this is one reason why I couldn't convert to the Mormon religion..."thou shall not consume coffee"? Why don't you take bacon away from me too why you are at it. You can take coffee away from me when you pry my mug from my cold dead....jittering hand. I think this explains in ancient times at least why Muslims were big time scholars. "You can't drink booze but you can drink as much coffee as you want".

[Cat of Ulthar]

I think this explains in ancient times at least why Muslims were big time scholars. "You can't drink booze but you can drink as much coffee as you want".

I visited the mosque where algebra was invented. It is in the hottest city on earth. You wouldn't want to drink booze there. Just shitloads of water. And yoghurt (apparently cools the body down). All you want to do is sit in the mosque all day, because it is nice and cool. And while you are sitting there, and you cannot take a nap because you had too much coffee, you might as well invent algebra. It's too hot to do anything else.

[AriesOmega]

I had a friend while stationed at Ft Knox who was also an instructor that happen to be Muslim from Sierra Leone. He was very polite and a bit old fashioned...he'd never come to the house unless he brought a gift either for everyone to share or one for each person (me, wife and my at the time 2 or 3 yr old) and he was very polite and reserved.

Anyhow we'd be up all night drinking coffee, surfing the web, playing games and debating things. He didn't drink, I did but I also lurve me some coffee, so it worked out. We'd talk for hours on end...wife would be like "hey...it's late...our son is going to be up to watch cartoons in a few hours...good night".

He loved using the dry erase board I had to illustrate things...also he was learning Arabic and squiggle down stuff and attempt to teach me a few words here and there. Anyhow yeah...good times though. I could totally see a bunch of Muslim scholars looking some text found in Byzantium and debating the meaning of Plato's work or something then going ehh..okay...lets just translate it to our language and file it away for "a debate for another time" folder.

[bunny]

Again, preventing absorption is not the same as depleting stores.
Amount not absorbed is trivial.

errr

Caffeine intake: this stimulant in coffee and tea can modestly increase calcium excretion and reduce absorption

Am I getting all confused on semantics, or is increased calcium excretion completely different than depleted calcium stores?

[Varaj]

Am I getting all confused on semantics, or is increased calcium excretion completely different than depleted calcium stores?

Very different.
As I stated that study has been heavily crititized.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1609631


High caffeine consumption has been proposed as a risk factor for osteoporotic fracture, but the evidence associating high caffeine intake with low bone density is inconsistent. We therefore examined the influence of caffeine consumption on bone mineral at six skeletal sites in an age-stratified random sample of white women residing in Rochester, Minnesota. After age adjustment, there was no association between overall caffeine consumption and bone mineral at five of the six sites. In the femoral shaft, however, there was a statistically significant interaction between age and caffeine consumption so that high caffeine intake was associated with slight reductions in bone mineral among elderly subjects but with modestly increased bone mineral at younger ages. When caffeine intake was categorized by source, no consistent influence of coffee, tea, or other caffeinated beverage consumption could be detected on bone mineral. Caffeine intake was, however, positively associated with cigarette smoking and alcohol consumption. After adjusting for age, caffeine consumption was not correlated with biochemical indices of bone turnover, circulating concentrations of estradiol and estrone, or other dietary and musculoskeletal variables. These data suggest that caffeine intake in the range consumed by a representative sample of white women is not an important risk factor for osteoporosis. Among elderly women, however, in whom calcium balance performance is impaired, high caffeine intake may predispose to cortical bone loss from the proximal femur.


http://blog.worldvillage.com/health/osteoporosis_and_the_effects_of_caffeine.html

[shiningbrow]

I'm assuming that there is something in the molecules of the caffeine compound that binds to free calcium in the body prohibiting its absorbtion, or in other words, from binding to anything else, like bone, for example. This causes it to be excreted rather than incorporated. The mild diuretic action of caffeine probably exacerbates or accelerates this process.

On the other hand, it isn't like an acid, yanking the bonds of already assimilated calcium away from wherever it's situated (your bones, teeth, etc.). So the answer appears to be to take some calcium with your caffeine, or via diet, mineral supplements, etc.

[Varaj]

I'm assuming that there is something in the molecules of the caffeine compound that binds to free calcium in the body prohibiting its absorbtion, or in other words, from binding to anything else, like bone, for example. This causes it to be excreted rather than incorporated. The mild diuretic action of caffeine probably exacerbates or accelerates this process.

On the other hand, it isn't like an acid, yanking the bonds of already assimilated calcium away from wherever it's situated (your bones, teeth, etc.). So the answer appears to be to take some calcium with your caffeine, or via diet, mineral supplements, etc.

Very nicely put.