Haldendreeva and World of Warcraft

[Edena_of_Neith]

For those of you who remember, a long time back I came up with a very extreme conception of elves, and I called these elves the Elves of Haldendreeva.
They were once high elves of an elven realm called Delrune, modelled after Highfolk of the Greyhawk Setting, and I put Delrune down in a location near Highfolk.

There was a war, in some ways similar to the war in which Arthas and the Scourge destroyed Quel'Thalas, in which the elves were overwhelmed and decimated by a superior military power, known as the Solistarim.
The ensuing anarchy and change in the land itself, in Delrune, has parallels in Quel'Thalas as well.
The surviving high elves were embittered and violent, and turned evil in nature (another parallel, this one to the Blood Elves.)

The Elves of Haldendreeva evolved out of this ruin, a race of people who revelled in combat, in war, in dying and resurrection, who could die any number of times and return, and in such constant war, they all became high clerics, archmages, great warriors, and so on (that is, all of them gained 18th level or higher.)
These elves were quite infamous, for their opponents could not employ such tactics, could not die over and over, and so Haldendreeva could take on and achieve victory over even the greatest of it's neighbors.

But I never thought someone would take my idea, and apply it to an entire world. That is just what they did, in Azeroth.
A character of mine, in Azeroth, has made up her mind on this, and summarizes it as follows:

The whole Alliance-Horde war is a put-up job. King Wrenn and King Thrall are actually allies, Sylvannas and all the others, in coholts.
They are breeding heroes and heroines, with this war. Breeding them, the way you'd breed cattle. The battlegrounds, such as Alterac Valley and Wintergrasp, serve as supreme breeding grounds.
Why? Because without the war, few would have any strength (very few would be above 10th level.) The Burning Legion, dedicated to destroying all in it's path, would have obliterated Azeroth long ago. We would all have died, and there would have been no resurrection from that final destruction.
So we, the heroes and heroines, we are the 'lucky' few (are we really very lucky?) in that we get 'free' resurrections (as opposed to, say, the 2 million high elves who died in Quel'Thalas - those innocents, and all the other millions who died, they get nothing. Apparently, only so many resurrections exist, after all.)
In return, we are expected to go after Arthas and the Scourge and the Burning Legion, the Blue Dragonflight, and all the others who seek to destroy us.
We will never be able to get along with the other Faction (Horde/Alliance) because they will never allow it. If they did, if they allowed peace, then it would stop the production mill of heroes and heroines. The Burning Legion, won't have it any other way, than to destroy us all, so we live in a state of perpetual insanity. And if people suffer in this insanity, then - from everyone's point of view - that is just too bad.
Even our leaders are willing to sacrifice themselves, deliberately opening themselves up to attack, being killed repeatedly, to help the hero/heroine mill along. Even they, are subject to the insanity.

It's Haldendreeva, but instead of one little city of 3,000 elves, it's an entire world.

[Brynja]

Edena,

You should try submitting some of these ideas to magazines for homebrew publish or something.

[Cat of Ulthar]

I like your idea.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Even the Elves of Haldendreeva, didn't get it for free. The ability to keep resurrecting endlessly wasn't free.
They did actually have to resurrect each other, for a start. No Spirit Healer aided them. But they could resurrect, without penalties, without aging the resurrecing priest (or whatever other penalties that are found in the various D&D editions) and without remorse for the loss of Arvandor.
But it wasn't free.

The Elves of Haldendreeva were a bunch of homicidal maniacs. They ate leaves and bugs as their staple diet, gnawed on branches and bones (to make their teeth more healthy), they ate opponents (only those still alive or just killed ... they would never eat decayed meat, and they would NEVER eat cooked meat!), and they delighted in being tortured, in torturing captives, in all the horrors of war.
It would be like Fingon saying: 'We are all going to die in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears? YEAH! Sounds fun! And, the survivors in Beleriand will resurrect us, so we can do it again!' (And the survivors saying: 'Yes, we will, and we envy you! We want some of the action, too! Where do we sign up?')

After the wars with their neighbors ended, and the natural environment turned into something survivable, the Elves of Haldendreeva slowly moderated back into relatively sane people. When they did, they lost the ability to endlessly resurrect.

In Azeroth, the whole world has become Haldendreeva, as I previously commented.
In such an environment, it becomes impossible to roleplay a normal, sane person. If you want to roleplay a normal, sane person, you are sorta out of luck.

Something as simple as the Lifeproof spell could mitigate this.
Lifeproof was a 7th level spell from AL-QADIM that rendered you unkillable from normal damage. You could be reduced to ashes, but you would still be alive. You would even eventually heal, if reduced to ashes.
Lifeproof protected you from the pain of injuries, as well. So you could be reduced to ashes, and not go insane from the pain.

Seems to me that everyone going to Alterac Valley needs to have a mandatory Lifeproof on them. No need to die, no need to add deaths to your Death Counter.

In Alterac Valley, they treat battle and death like kids in school treat Dodgeball (whack, you're out!)
Why bother with death counts at all?

Heck, in Polyhedron #27, Delsenora came out with a 1st level Regeneration spell, that lasted 10 hours (for those of you with Polyhedron #27, or who can look it up, you can see it for yourself.)
That simple spell, applied to Alterac Valley, would negate any and all the deaths.

You wouldn't have wanted to have been one of the Elves of Haldendreeva. You would have found the price of the endless resurrections, a little higher than the rewards it offered.
For example, you would have the joy of everyone being aghast, then turning on you, because you enjoyed killing and torture, eating your foes and chewing on the bones (for the health of your teeth.)
And when the other elves in the party turned on you, you would not be able to fight them, or even defend yourself (the Elves of Haldendreeva could not attack or fight with other elves, but no other elves remained anywhere in the world for them to fight with - they were the last.)

Even the Elves of Haldendreeva, refused to consort with Death Knights.
This is just as well, as the Death Knights of the world of Oerth - all 12 of them - refused to consort with the Elves of Haldendreeva.
Since the primary Death Knight attack, Power Word Kill, prevents resurrection or raise dead from bringing back the victim (only a Wish will work, assuming it's properly worded) the Elves of Haldendreeva gave these powerful, deadly foes a wide berth.

[Edena_of_Neith]

No self respecting Death Knight of Oerth would go to Alterac Valley.
If one of them did, such as Lord Kargath, that would be the end of everyone on both sides of the conflict. They would all be dead (including the NPC 80s resurrecting everyone.)
The Death Knight would most certainly seek out and kill the Spirit Healer, to make absolutely sure, that absolutely no resurrections were available to anyone in Alterac Valley ever again.

If the Death Knight could not accomplish this, he would get help from someone who *could.* Someone such as, a demilich. I'm sure a demilich would be happy to oblige, considering the feast of souls that would be provided.

[Edena_of_Neith]

(dark humor)

Edena_of_Neith's Guide on How to Survive in Azeroth

1. Create an Alliance character.
2. Get your character to 6th level in the starting zone (Northshire Valley, Shadowglen, Coldridge Valley, or Ammen Fields.)
3. Accomplish 2, above, by killing vast numbers of those creatures who will fight back only if attacked.
4. If there a quests to deliver items to your local town, take them, and go straight to those towns, and complete the quests.
5. Wait a week (for the double experience.)
6. From the safety of the town, kite creatures one by one into range, and kill them, until you've gained 8th level.
7. Wait a week.
8. From the safety of the town, kite creatures one by one into range, and kill them, until you've gained 10th level.
9. Go to the cities and train, get armor and weapons.
10. Go to Westfall.
11. Wait a week.
12. Kill the 9th and 10th level harvester golems, one by one, from the *safety of the main road* until you are 12th level.
13. Wait a week.
14. Kill more 9th and 10th level harvester golems, then 12th level harvester golems, from the *safety of the main road* until you are 14th level.
15. Wait a week.
16. Kill the 12th level harvester golems, from the safety of the main road, until you are 16th level.
17. Do The Killing Fields quest. Then, wait a week.
18. Kill the 14th and 15th level harvester golems, until you are 18th level.
19. Wait a week.
20. Kill the 17th and 18th level harvester golems, from the safety of the road, until you are 20th level.
21. Get a mount, immediately.
22. Have someone give you several hundred gold, so you can buy items (that you must have, your class strength not being enough) without going through instances, where your party is sure to get you killed.
23. Find a Battlefield where you control the Battle, and can take on the creatures at your leisure, and treat it like Westfall.
- For the 20s, several good battlefields exist in Duskwood and the Hillsbrad Foothills.
- For the 30s, use Dustswallow Swamp (but for god's sake, stay on the road.)
- For the 40s, use the wandering monsters of northern and central Tanaris.
- For the 50s, use carefully chosen places in Felwood.
- For the 60s, use the wandering monsters of Zangarmarsh.
- For the upper 60s, use the easier parts of Quel'Danis.
- For levels 71 to 75, use the Sands of Nassam outside Valiance Keep in Northrend.
- For levels 76 through 79, carefully prowl parts of the Scholozar Basin in Northrend.
24. Remember you will need thousands of gold, to keep buying items appropriate to your level, so your character remains viable. Don't have thousands of gold? Take up mining. It helps (they pay unbelievable prices for ore at the auction house.)
25. Hope your computer's power supply is extremely stable. Nothing like a power out, when you are in the middle of a battle, to kill you.

*** Congratulations, you now have a level 80 character with no deaths. ***

EDIT:

If you are going to attempt quests, do the ones in the starting zones (levels 1 through 5 quests) normally.
After that, wait until you are 20 levels above the zone in which the quests occur. For example, Elwynn Forest is a 1 to 10 zone, so do the quests there at 30th level. Redridge Mountains is a 15 to 25 zone, so do the quests there at 45th. Stranglethorn Vale is a 30th to 45th zone, so do the quests there at 65th level.
This does not apply to instances of any level.

[Edena_of_Neith]

(dark humor)

Edena_of_Neith's Guide to How to Get to 80th Level, as Quickly as Possible, in World of Warcraft.

1. Create a Horde character.
2. Get to 10th level, killing and being killed.
3. Go to Warsong Gulch, and let the Horde carry you to victory.
4. At 20th level, go to Arathi Basin, and let the Horde carry you to victory.
5. As you gain access to other Battlefields, go to them, too.
6. At 60th level, go to Alterac Valley, day and night, and let the Horde carry you to victory.
7. At 80th, savor your invincibility, and sate it by going to Wintergrasp and also by doing Heroics, until you are weighed down with Tier 9 items, and are the baddest of the badasses around.

Note, though, that since Faction Change, half the Horde seems to have gone Alliance. So, this tactic just might work with the Alliance also, now.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Note:

If you attempt the first approach above, the attempt to make it to 80th level and not die while doing so ... you will quickly come to realize just how nice, how safe, how reasonable, the infamous S1 Tomb of Horrors module really was, compared to that giant deathtrap called Azeroth.

If you take the second approach, trying to get to 80th using the Battlefields, you will be transported into a Place and Mindset that makes the Elves of Haldendreeva look like positively sane, restrained, Mr. Rogers type beings, in comparison.

[Edena_of_Neith]

I would like to comment that most of the people playing World of Warcraft, it seems, refuse to acknowledge the meaning of the word Consequences.

In D&D, we stuck together, worked, tried to survive.
Few people in WOW care if they (or you) die or not. Nothing matters. Death is free. Why attempt anything intelligent?
And then they wonder, once they've made 80th, why they have no feeling of accomplishment.

It is, basically, impossible to work with a group in WOW. All they do is get you killed. And, they don't care. They just don't care.

[Name Lips]

That is very common in what they call "PUGs" -- "Pick Up Groups." Where you join a random group of people you don't know. At its worst, everybody in the group is a total stranger to everybody else. Good luck getting anything done in such a group.

MMOs are ultimately about building relationships with other players. You find people you can tolerate, friend them, join their guild, and essentially create your own community of people you can trust to play reasonably well.

It's not about role-playing at all. Those of us who play tabletop RPGs get confused by this -- but in computer gaming, a "Role-Playing Game" is simply a genre where you play a character who advances numerically in some way and collects equipment as he progresses through the game. From what I've seen, if there's an "inventory" or "character sheet" type screen, they call it a "Role-Playing Game."

Like I said, all MMOs really boil down to a fairly simple game that if made single-player would be excrutiatingly dull -- the only thing that makes them worth playing is the other people, your relationships, your community. Your character is insignificant -- he's just a mirage, an illusion. He has no past, no real place in the fictional world. He suffers no consequences. Everything useful about him is boiled down to a number, a statistic. If you know where to look, characters are traded as commodities for cash. They're not people at all.

Try to think of what it would be like playing a tabletop RPG like that. It doesn't transfer over. There's no translation for the terms, really. They're totally different animals. Which is sad... but it does help explain why nobody role plays. There's no benefit to it. It doesn't enhance the game at all, since it lacks versimlitude at such a fundamental level. Role-playing would simply interfere with the game.

[Edena_of_Neith]

That is very common in what they call "PUGs" -- "Pick Up Groups." Where you join a random group of people you don't know. At its worst, everybody in the group is a total stranger to everybody else. Good luck getting anything done in such a group.

Well put.

MMOs are ultimately about building relationships with other players. You find people you can tolerate, friend them, join their guild, and essentially create your own community of people you can trust to play reasonably well.

In AD&D, this was crucial to survival, and to enjoyment of the game, both.

It's not about role-playing at all. Those of us who play tabletop RPGs get confused by this -- but in computer gaming, a "Role-Playing Game" is simply a genre where you play a character who advances numerically in some way and collects equipment as he progresses through the game. From what I've seen, if there's an "inventory" or "character sheet" type screen, they call it a "Role-Playing Game."

It is incredibly frustrating when everyone around you refers to their characters as Toons, and treats them about as seriously as the Three Stooges.
No roleplaying is possible in such an environment, no.

Like I said, all MMOs really boil down to a fairly simple game that if made single-player would be excrutiatingly dull -- the only thing that makes them worth playing is the other people, your relationships, your community.

I have a comment on that, based on my experience. It boils down to:
If you treat death as meaningless, and try to play alone, the game is so boring, it bores you to tears.
If you play in what they call Hardcore Mode, where even one death is unacceptable, the game is all too interesting ... survival, is an overwhelming challenge (all that scary music in the Duskwood, actually becomes scary.)

Your character is insignificant -- he's just a mirage, an illusion. He has no past, no real place in the fictional world. He suffers no consequences. Everything useful about him is boiled down to a number, a statistic. If you know where to look, characters are traded as commodities for cash. They're not people at all.

You are right, and it is very unfortunate that it went this way.
In AD&D, how important your character was to you, was crucial. A great part of the fun depended on it. These words are from the game designers themselves, not me ... but I knew this long before I saw them written down in the books.
In WOW, people treat their characters as utterly without value, as you said.

Try to think of what it would be like playing a tabletop RPG like that. It doesn't transfer over. There's no translation for the terms, really. They're totally different animals. Which is sad... but it does help explain why nobody role plays. There's no benefit to it. It doesn't enhance the game at all, since it lacks versimlitude at such a fundamental level. Role-playing would simply interfere with the game.

What an irony, since WOW uses all of the D&D terminology. It uses the D&D core classes, core concepts, the monsters, a huge amount of the material and concepts from the DMGs, the whole thing.
Most people who play WOW know very little about D&D, it seems. They are using D&D terminology to the hilt, and they know nothing about D&D. lol.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Roleplaying, as we D&Ders think about it, partially evolved from the simply idea of survival.

You have your character, right? And your character, he or she, wants to survive, to win, to kill the monsters, gather loot, gain experience points, gain levels, gain power. (At least, that was how it started, the core principals of the early D&D game were those principals - heck, you got 1 experience point per gold piece you took 'home' !)
But ... you have to kill those monsters to get their treasure, and they, naturally, try to kill YOU. And they are pretty powerful, pretty dangerous, and you're just one person. What to do?

So, you get a group. Now, you need a fighter, to hold the line. A rogue, to reconnoiter, find traps, open doors, and do other various things. You need a cleric, for healing and turning undead. You need a mage, for the devastating firepower and getting around situations unsolvable by anything other than magic (such as flying over that chasm.)
Now, with this interdependency (which Gary Gygax insisted on creating) established, you sit together, and discuss, OOC, how you are going to work together to get things done ... hopefully.

As a roleplayer, inspired by books, you also want to go 'in character', enjoy the game by 'being your character', seeing it all from his or her point of view, sharing his or her triumphs and tragedies (well, ok, everyone hoped to leave out the tragedy part ...)
The character, had his or her own quirks. Paladins could be righteous, noble, and a regular pain in the ass. Mages were always doing the unexpected. Rogues sometimes found the monsters, and sometimes, the monsters found the rogue (and the unfortunate party) instead. Clerics sometimes healed the party, and sometimes they healed themselves instead. Etc., etc., etc. The Alignment Wars. Dragonlance (kender, anyone?) Greyhawk (everyone likes to kill everyone!) Forgotten Realms (Yes, that's right, nobody likes Elminster.) Ravenloft (No, you don't get to teleport out of here. You wish!)

It started with the desire to live, as well as with storybooks and fantasy novels.
John Carter was a pretty famous hero from the author Edgar Rice Burroughs, but he became so famous because he managed to beat all his foes, and live to talk about it. He became the Warlord of Barsoom, defeating countless opponents and surviving.
Another famous - or infamous - character, is Jar Jar Binks, given to us by George Lucas. He couldn't do anything right, he was exiled for clumsiness, he bungled the battle of Naboo, he fell under the Emperor's sway - voting for his seizure of power, and he remained an Imperial Senator until the Emperor dissolved the Senate. He survived the entire series (to the dismay of us all), and his shouted 'we'sa free' is the last line of text spoken in the Star Wars films (again, to the great dismay of us all.)
Thing about both John Carter and Jar Jar Binks, is they survived.

-

Survival in World of Warcraft is possible.
However, nobody who plays the game, believes this.
Because nobody believes survival is possible, nobody tries, and one of the core inspirations for Roleplaying, is permanently lost.
Since nobody else believes in survival, if you do believe in survival, you cannot work with anyone else. You are on your own, which makes survival much, much harder yet, when it was already very hard to begin with.

Yet survival is possible, even on your own, in WOW.
Surviving, winning despite the odds, that was a crucial part of D&D, a crucial part of Heroic Roleplaying.

Not surviving, just letting the scenario kill you, creates a victim mentality.
In WOW, this victim mentality is highly evident, and is especially evident in PvP (something that was tried and quickly abandoned in D&D, because it inevitably ended in tragedy, disaster.)
Angry players, who have had their characters killed repeatedly, are there only to express aggression, anger, even hatred. They will be the first to tell you so, too.
This is not my idea of a way to play a game, but it is how many play in WOW. This is not my idea of winning, but it is, to many players in WOW.

I would say, if you're going to do PvP, create an 'expendable' character just for that purpose, and treat the situation as strictly a video game.
If it's PvE, then try to survive, don't be a victim. In PvE, the game is survivable, victory is possible, despite what everyone says.

In your fight to survive, a very definite Character will evolve out of your 'toon.' He or she will evolve into a full fledged character, with a personality and quirks. He or she will be someone you identify with.
Maybe nobody else will roleplay, or recognize what you are doing, but who cares? They aren't worth bothering with, if they insist on getting you killed, if they won't take things seriously, when you do take the situation seriously. (In D&D, these were the people who got thrown out of groups real fast, because groups did not appreciate frivolous players getting the group killed.)

At least, that's my experience with this computer game, so far.

EDIT:

Paradoxically, although few in WOW take death and dying seriously, the game itself takes it extremely seriously.
If you are in combat, you cannot quit the game, or logout of the game, until the combat is resolved, one way or another.
If you are in combat, and you have a Power Out, or you use the emergency shutdown on your computer to try to leave the game, your character remains, and dies.
The game has the attitude of the Scarlet Crusaders, who like to say: 'There is no escape for you. Prepare to enter the Twisting Nether!' Once in combat, you cannot escape, except by winning that combat. Even if you were an 80th level character fully equipped, fighting a 1st level kobold, you could not leave the game until combat was resolved.

The attitude is so grimly serious, that going to the bathroom, while on a Battleground, can actually get you banned from World of Warcraft.
Going to the bathroom means you are AFK. Being AFK on a Battleground, is a Bannable Offense. So, having to go to the bathroom, while in battle on a Battleground, is a bannable offense!
Leaving the battleground (by teleporting out) flags you as a Deserter (you can then go to the bathroom, though ...) You may get away with Deserting a few times, but do it enough, and the GMs will blacklist you as an Exploiter. You will be on their shit list, and they will be looking for excuses to ban you.

Hiding on a Battleground ('I'm just here for the experience, I don't want to die over and over') is a Bannable Offense. And the other players, seeing you are hiding, not helping, will be quick to report you (especially if they are Horde players.)

This is not taking death and dying frivolously. This is taking it very seriously.
Yet, obviously, those who go to battlegrounds die over and over, and they do not care. Battlegrounds are, by their very nature, unsurvivable.
A paradox.

[Edena_of_Neith]

How hard is it to survive, in WOW, with a PvE scenario, never PvP?
It depends on your class. But if you average all the classes out, take this average, and compare it against the difficulty of the game, I'd say that:

- If you make 5th level without dying, you're doing ok.
- If you make 7th level without dying, you've done very well. Self congratulations are in order.
- If you make 10th level without dying, you've proven yourself very competent. You should really pat yourself on the back.
- If you make 15th level without dying, you've proven yourself exceptional. You should be very proud of yourself.
- If you make 20th level without dying, you've earned the right to call yourself a Real Survivor. You're the person who can make it, when nobody else can.
- If you can make 30th level without dying, you should think of your character as Exceptional, Special. Your character stands out as an Unbeatable Champion in a Killer World.
- If you can make 40th level without dying, you have every right to call your character a Hero or Heroine. You've earned that title, in spades.
- If you're 50th level, and you haven't died once, your character is Exalted. No other words for it. Exalted. An Exalted Champion, a Beacon of Light in a dark world.
- If you can make 60th level without dying once, then ... well, if it were a D&D setting, everyone in Stormwind City would stop what they were doing, and turn to stare, as you walked by. Even people fighting each other, would stop doing so, to see the Legend walk in (think of the great John Wayne or Clint Eastwood characters.)
- If you can make 70th level without dying once, you can consider yourself an Olympic Champion of World of Warcraft. Nobody may listen to you, but everyone should be listening. You are the Font of Wisdom.
- If you can make 80th level without dying, you've earned Dalaran. The music of that place, applies to you. You are the Living Legend of World of Warcraft, the John Carter of Azeroth.
- If you can beat all of the 80th level challenges, and win all Epic Items for your character, and beat all the Heroics, and you succeed in doing all of this, without dying? You are the Warlord of Azeroth. In a D&D scenario, all would bow to you, either in awe, or envy, or terror, or all of the above, but all would bow.

[Name Lips]

I think there should be a set of "Achievements" for exactly those goals, Edena.

Certain classes would be better at it than others, of course. A paladin's ability to "bubble" himself and run away would be invaluable. Many classes have some ability that would help, like a warrior's hamstring, a warlock's voidwalker bubble, a mage's freeze, a druid's root. Anything to "get away and survive" if things are going poorly.

Extra points if your pets never die, or if you choose not to ever "re-summon" a dead pet. That's right, if your imp dies you can never summon it again. I guess in that scenario you'd never sacrifice your voidwalker...

[Edena_of_Neith]

I think there should be a set of "Achievements" for exactly those goals, Edena.

Certain classes would be better at it than others, of course. A paladin's ability to "bubble" himself and run away would be invaluable. Many classes have some ability that would help, like a warrior's hamstring, a warlock's voidwalker bubble, a mage's freeze, a druid's root. Anything to "get away and survive" if things are going poorly.

Extra points if your pets never die, or if you choose not to ever "re-summon" a dead pet. That's right, if your imp dies you can never summon it again. I guess in that scenario you'd never sacrifice your voidwalker...

I agree. I totally agree.
In the Achievements section of your character, there should be openings for: Made 5th level without dying, made 10th level without dying, and so on.

EDIT:

Even if you allow a 15 death limit (the maximum number of times, basically, that an AD&D character could die, assuming a starting Constitution of 18) the above reactions would apply.
That is, if you had died 15 times or less, and were 60th level, in a D&D setting everyone in Stormwind City would stop and stare, as the Living Legend walked by.

After all, World of Warcraft is a VERY difficult game (In D&D, we would definitely call the whole of Azeroth a Killer Dungeon. And the lethality level multiplies in Outlands, then multiplies again in Northrend.)

EDIT:

Indiana Jones, the character in the film Raiders of the Lost Ark, is a good example of someone who 'made it to 60th level and never died once', as it were.

[Edena_of_Neith]

(grins sourly)

There is one way NOT to survive in Azeroth. That way, is to challenge Death Knights.

DM in D&D: 'You see the Death Knight, his (powerful version of a) ghoul, and several other high level enemy NPCs ahead. What do you do, guys?'
Powerful Party in D&D: 'We had better think about this one very carefully ...'

WOW: (A Death Knight, his ghoul, and several other Horde Champions are dead ahead, on the road, in Alterac Valley.)
The Alliance Characters, immediately: 'Charge!'

Play a Death Knight? No point in trying to survive, if you do. You're already dead (or, undead. You died, and you aren't coming back to life.)

[Varaj]

The majority of players don't tend to want stiff death penalties.

The majority of players don't want to role play either. Some do and you can find actual role players in MMOs but they are the rarity.

[Name Lips]

I'd like to supply a contrast.

I recently re-activated my EVE Online account. If you haven't heard of it Edena, it is an MMO set in a sci-fi universe. It's all spaceships, stations, trading, piracy, and other good conventions of that genre. But you never get out of your ship - your "character" on the screen is always the ship you're flying at the moment.

I have a certain problem playing EVE. That problem is that I like to take risks. That problem is compounded by the fact that there are actually consequences for failure...

The other day I joined a corporation (think: Guild) that operated in a very dangerous region of space. I packed up all my goods into a freighter and headed out to my new home base. I popped out of a jump gate 5 jumps away from my destination and there was a hostile player waiting for me. He caught me in a warp disruptor bubble and destroyed my freighter.

All of my ships and possessions were lost. Several packed-up mining ships and their associated equipment, which I was going to use to help fund my corporation's war efforts were also destroyed.

Luckily I had paid money for 1) insurance for my ship (didn't come NEAR to covering the cost of what was destroyed, but it's better than nothing) and 2) I had paid to have a "clone" of my character grown in a vat elsewhere (thus I could be resurrected with none of my precious and hard-earned skill points lost).

But there are consequences. My possessions are now in the hands of the enemy corporation. My corp is losing out on my mining income, and the opposing corp could easily be putting those resources to good use. I have to spend weeks of actual effort to rebuild the fortune that was lost. My corporation has realized it needs to devote additional ships (that is, actual players spending real game time) patroling its incoming jump routes to prevent such disasters, which means security is lighter elsewhere.

If I had scouted the route first with a cheap shuttle, or asked for an escort, or just happened to have been traveling at a different time, things would be different. For everybody.

Now imagine this scenario in WoW - if you were killed, not only did you have to run back to your corpse to reclaim it, but your possessions could be looted by other players while you were gone. PvP would involve getting the other person's stuff. Imagine the horrors. Imaging the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the hordes of WoW players across the world. Imagine having to decide if you wanted to pvp in cheap throwaway gear or risk your good stuff, which you spent weeks of raiding to acquire.

Your life doesn't matter in computer games -- but your STUFF does.

[Varaj]

EVE has to be one of the most hardcore pvp games out there.
Yes these are actual lead designers and CEOs of CCP (company that owns EVE) telling players to harden the fuck up or get out of their game. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q

[Edena_of_Neith]

In AD&D, you faced losing all of your items if the party wiped ... and who would be there, to take anyone back for resurrection?
If you were alone, of course, you could be messed over in a real hurry.
That was for mere PvE scenarios, in AD&D.

PvP just didn't work in AD&D. It just hurt too many feelings, and it killed characters off (after all, that Constitution limit was there.)
If the AD&D rules are imposed in WOW, PvP becomes impossible. Even if it's just the item looting, PvP becomes ... well, it becomes even more savage, feelings are even more violent, the unhealthy atmosphere of anger and hatred becomes more furiously so. (I call it unhealthy. Even with the current rules in WOW, I've heard Death Threats uttered against the other side on Battlegrounds. The players on the other side cannot understand what you are saying, but a Death Threat is a Death Threat.)

I'll leave the PvP to the PvP crowd.

PvE is hard enough. Especially when you play Hardcore (that is, death is serious, you are there to survive, as well as win.)

[Edena_of_Neith]

Concerning survival, my attitude is (to use the phrase of many in WOW) unique.
Imagine deciding that you are going to make it to 40th level in WOW, not die once.

The result is that areas I think are appropriate to be in, at any given level, are different than the areas others think are appropriate. Here is a comparison:

Level ... aggressive player goes there ... typical player goes there ... I would go there

1 ... Northshire Valley ... Northshire Valley ... Northshire Valley
4 ... Fargodeep Mines ... Northshire Valley ... Northshire Valley
6 ... Jasperlode Mines ... Fargodeep Mines ... Northshire Valley
8 ... Eastvale Logging Camp ... Jasperlode Mines ... Northshire Valley
10 ... Hoggar ... Eastvale Logging Camp ... Fargodeep Mines
12 ... Saldean's Farm ... Hoggar ... Jasperlode Mines
14 ... Dagger Hills ... Saldean's Farm ... Eastvale Logging Camp
16 ... Deadmines ... Dagger Hills ... Hoggar
18 ... Hushed Bank ... Deadmines ... Saldean's Farm
20 ... Tranquil Gardens Cementary ... Hushed Bank ... Saldean's Farm
22 ... Raven Hill ... Tranquil Gardens Cementary ... Deadmines
24 ... Rotting Orchard ... Raven Hill ... Hushed Bank
26 ... Roland's Doom ... Raven Hill ... Tranquil Gardens Cementary
28 ... The Rebel Camp ... Roland's Doom ... Raven Hill
30 ... Nesingwary's Camp ... Roland's Doom ... Raven Hill
32 ... Kurzen's Encampment ... The Rebel Camp ... Raven Hill
34 ... Venture Company Base ... Nesingwary's Camp ... The Rotting Orchard
36 ... The Savage Coast ... Kurzen's Encampment ... Roland's Doom
38 ... The Southern Savage Coast ... Venture Company Base ... The Rebel Camp
40 ... Northern Tanaris ... The Savage Coast ... Nesingwary's Camp

[SpikeyFreak]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/neverdied-lvl-80-mage-mlg-orlando-blue-posts/

--Lurkin Spikey

[Edena_of_Neith]

Well, ok. Just remember that the wizard, as we think of her in the old 1st and 2nd edition AD&D (and also 3.0 D&D) does not exist in World of Warcraft. (If you took the mage, warlock, hunter, priest, druid, and death knight, all together into one class, they still could not do what the AD&D mage could once do.)

Concerning how to do the other things while still surviving:

You wait until you are 10 or more levels higher than the Quest supposedly requires. Then you do the Quest.
You wait until you are higher than the most powerful creature in the Zone. Then, you explore the Zone.
You find the Flight Paths, after you are powerful enough to do so.
You go into dungeons, when you are with *competent* groups who *care* about living and winning the scenario.

In AD&D, this was considered normal behavior.
The fact that almost everyone in Azeroth acts like they are one of the Haldendreevan Elves, is not my doing.

Obviously, no AD&D character would go to the Battlegrounds, for the good reason that there was a limit of 15 deaths in AD&D, and that would last you 2 or 3 battlegrounds in WOW.
No AD&D character would go into a situation where they could not survive, could not hope to survive, except under the most extraordinary of circumstances (such as us foolish ones who dared the Tomb of Horrors ...)

Heroics?
You'd want to be 80th level, and with appropriate gear, and with a competent group where everyone cared about surviving and winning the scenario. (You know, sorta like a good AD&D group.)

If you ISRP goes out, you're dead no matter what you do.

[Edena_of_Neith]

But it really IS like being in a whole world of Haldendreevan Elves.
Death? No problem! Charge!
You're going to die? No problem! I'll raise you from the dead, on the spot!

Now, if they had that 15 death limit, things would be very different, wouldn't they? (And, they'd have to alter the classes, give them much more power to actually survive, especially classes like the mage.)

Instead, the attitude in WOW runs more like the following theoretical AD&D Table:

Players: We're ready to play.
DM: I'm ready to run the game.
Players: Let's play.
DM: A few things first.
Players: What?

DM:

1. I intend to do my best to kill you, over and over, until you are broken victims - and have a victim mentality, in which you think it's ok to be rude, and ok to hurt others, because I've hurt you so much.
2. I will not allow you any items appropriate to your level to protect yourself with, to ensure you cannot survive. No competent sword for the fighter, no competent wand for the mage, no competent gun for the hunter, etc.
3. When you complain about the severity of the scenario, I will laugh at you. If you continue to complain, I will throw you out of the game.
4. If you have to go to the bathroom, even Number 1, I will arbitrarily kill your character.
5. If you have an emergency ((ala, an ISRP disconnect)) I will kill your character.
6. You cannot help anyone else survive, by giving them items you possess.
7. You cannot have healing potions that are adequate, and even with the inadequate ones, you can only drink one. Other healing methods will be similarly inadequate.
8. Only armor will actually protect you. Dexterity will never substitute for it. Nor will any magic. Thus, your healers will focus on the fighters, and leave the rest of you to die. After all, they must ration what healing they have.
9. Only a few classes can have armor worth mentioning, and they only get it at high level ... at lower level, they aren't allowed any armor worth mentioning either.
10. If you have a problem with this, I'm going to write a song about it, sneering at you, laughing at you, the stupid players who presumes to think he or she should survive.

Yes, WOW is definitely what we AD&Ders would call a Killer Dungeon Scenario.
It IS survivable, but the overwhelming majority of those who play have given up on the concept of survival, and act like Haldendreevan Elves instead.

Except the Elves of Haldendreeva were merry about death and dying (ala, the classic 1st edition frivolous, flighty, frolicking elves ... being elves, they could react in non-human ways to their dark situation. Elves are magical, and magic can pretty much do anything.)
The majority of WOW players have a dour attitude of: Since I've suffered, you have to suffer too. Since I've been hurt over and over, I have the right to be rude and inconsiderate to everyone else.

I would not accuse WOW of being AD&D.
Defeatism, apathy, fatalism, despair, were not what AD&D was about.