Switzerland Bans Minarets

[Hatter]

I'm sure this (http://www.rferl.org/content/Switzerland_Looks_Headed_Toward_Minaret_Ban_After_ Referendum/1890536.html) will help ease cultural tensions.

(RFE/RL) -- Swiss voters have approved a move to ban the construction of new minarets in the country.

Final results show that over 57 percent of voters backed the proposal in a referendum that was held today following an initiative by a right wing political party. Turnout was reported at about 55 percent.

Switzerland, home to some 400,000 Muslims, already has four minarets attached to mosques that will remain even after today’s referendum.

The Swiss government had urged voters to reject the proposed ban on new minarets, saying it would violate religious freedom and human rights, as well as potentially provoking Islamist radicalism and harming Switzerland’s image. But in a statement today, the government said it respects the decision of the voters.

"A majority of the Swiss people and the cantons have adopted the popular initiative against the construction of minarets. The Federal Council respects this decision," the statement said.

The controversial proposal to ban minarets was brought up by the right wing Swiss People’s party, which says minarets are symbols of rising Muslim political and religious power that could eventually turn Switzerland into an Islamic nation.

Campaigners demanded the referendum to halt "political Islamization" by amending the Swiss constitution to add a clause stating "the construction of minarets is prohibited."

‘Political Symbol’

The referendum was called after campaigners collected the 100,000 signatures required to put the question to a nationwide vote.

Right wing politician Ulrich Schluer from the Swiss People's Party told the Swiss website swissinfo.ch that minarets symbolize a political-religious claim to power.

“We do not forbid Islam -- we forbid the political symbol of Islamization, and this is the minaret,” Schluer said. “The minaret has nothing to do with religion; the minaret is a symbol of political victory [of Islam]. The first thing the Turks did when they conquered Constinople -- they installed a minaret on the top of the most important church.”

Amnesty International has warned that the ban would violate Switzerland's obligations to freedom of religious expression.

Agencies report that partial results from the poll indicate that the German-speaking canton of Lucerne accepted the ban. But the French-speaking cantons of Geneva and Vaud have reportedly voted against.

"I'm shocked by this initiative, by this answer I've given you my position. I'm against this initiative because I think it's [an example of] intolerance," one voter told Reuters in Geneva.

Early results suggest that 55 percent of voters have backed the initiative. Swiss media report that ahead of the referendum, opinion polls had predicted the ban would not receive voters’ support.

Claude Longchamp, leader of the gfs.bern polling institute, is quoted by the Associated Press as saying that the projection also forecasts approval by more than half of the country's 26 cantons, meaning it will become a constitutional amendment.

Tensions ran high ahead of the referendum as voters grappled with sensitive issues linked to immigration.

[Name Lips]

Yes, banning minarets will certainly solve the issue they have with Muslims gaining more and more political and religious power. I mean, without their minarets they're NOTHING! Bwahahahaha!

[Pigs in Space]

How can they do the call to prayer without Minarets?

It's clearly a foolproof strategy.

[The Winslow]

Well, they would be totally out of place there, architecturally speaking.

[Hatter]

Well, they would be totally out of place there, architecturally speaking.

An aesthetic imperative then?

[The Winslow]

An aesthetic imperative then?

Yeah. I've seen enough formerly beautiful landscapes ravaged by ugly buildings that don't integrate harmoniously with their surrounding to favor banning certain types of constructions in certain areas just because of how they'd look.

[tleilaxu]

they've managed to make themselves look like fools and xenophobes in one fell swoop. looks like the worst aspects of the 'french method of integration' have rubbed off on the swiss. european countries need to look at the US and canada to see the better way of dealing with multiculturalism.

[The Winslow]

they've managed to make themselves look like fools and xenophobes in one fell swoop. looks like the worst aspects of the 'french method of integration' have rubbed off on the swiss. european countries need to look at the US and canada to see the better way of dealing with multiculturalism.
Agencies report that partial results from the poll indicate that the German-speaking canton of Lucerne accepted the ban. But the French-speaking cantons of Geneva and Vaud have reportedly voted against.
By the way, you oughta come see France one of these days. We're a lot more multicultural than you think we are.

[Name Lips]

In Santa Fe, New Mexico there are rules and regulations forcing all new construction to be "southwest style" architecture. You know, the faux-adobe stucco buildings with flat roofs. All buildings, even businesses, have to blend in architecturally by law. Supposedly this maintains the aura and mystique of Santa Fe as a tourist destination where people can see "Southwest Stuff."

[AriesOmega]

In Santa Fe, New Mexico there are rules and regulations forcing all new construction to be "southwest style" architecture. You know, the faux-adobe stucco buildings with flat roofs. All buildings, even businesses, have to blend in architecturally by law. Supposedly this maintains the aura and mystique of Santa Fe as a tourist destination where people can see "Southwest Stuff."

This is a problem why? I go to Arizona, New Mexico or part of California in the desert I want to see adobe, flat roofs and cactus that looks like something from a Road Runner cartoon. I want to see kokapelli, coyotes and Native American stuff. It's cultural hertiage. If the Moors came here before the Spanish then fine you can have a minerette...they didn't so tuff luck.

[Schizm]

In Santa Fe, New Mexico there are rules and regulations forcing all new construction to be "southwest style" architecture. You know, the faux-adobe stucco buildings with flat roofs. All buildings, even businesses, have to blend in architecturally by law. Supposedly this maintains the aura and mystique of Santa Fe as a tourist destination where people can see "Southwest Stuff."

yes, but there's a fundamental difference between "all buildings must be constructed in this style" vs. "your religion may not build places of worship in its traditional style."

[AriesOmega]

yes, but there's a fundamental difference between "all buildings must be constructed in this style" vs. "your religion may not build places of worship in its traditional style."

Local laws say can't build something some way...it's the law...have to go by it. Gawd forgives you if you can't worship in the perfect building. If you don't like it go somewhere that allows it. Besides why do you want to go to Switzerland...it's really cold...reeks of choclolate and there are clocks always going off:D

[The Winslow]

reeks of choclolate

Chocolate smells bad? Your "Human Being Club" membership has just been revoked; we'll have to assume that you are a disguised alien intruder from Tau Ceti, here to gather information for an upcoming invasion or something.

[Black Angel]

But they already have minarets on some mosques anyway, so it does seem a bit xenophobic to ban them now. If it was all buildings over a certain height or something like that (apart from those already built), then it would make more sense & be more fair.

[ROGAN GOSH]

Good. Minarets are ugly and stupid.....so are crucifixes and wacky 6 point stars.


So there :tongue:

[cnath.rm]

Besides why do you want to go to Switzerland...it's really cold...reeks of choclolate and there are clocks always going off:Dthe nifty proof that citizens having guns isn't the end of the world? If I am remembering right, the Swiss military are not only allowed, but required to have their arms and equipment at home and ready to go. (mandatory service probably doesn't hurt the crime deterrent either, though I don't have crime numbers for the place.)

On the other hand, I'm sure much of the board consider the swiss to be evil and the country to be fashist in the extreme.... after all, they dare to spy on satellite communications, and they are allowed to monitor communications between people inside the country and people outside!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_%28interception_system%29)!!

[Harry]

DAMN STRAIGHT! It's about god-damned time someone had the balls to stand up and ban this shit. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/greylock/Smilies/gnasher.gif Only thing that baffles me is, why was it the Swiss and why now after all these years? You'd think the French would have gotten enough of this poncy bullshit years ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/greylock/Smilies/kickback.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/greylock/Smilies/singdance.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i9opgNifSE

[Ancalagon]

how is a Minaret more political than a church's steeple?

[shiningbrow]

I guess the Spanish came here after they'd been utterly infiltrated and transformed by the Moors. That's why they have such a vibrant plataresque style that transferred to many of the important buildings in the Viceroyalty of New Spain. This flamboyant ornament only had moderate echoes in the remote reaches of the empire and the crap that now adorns shopping malls around Santa Fe hardly accords with any Spanish architecture. What they really need in New Mexico is a big Brutalist building like the Yale Art and Architecture Building. Some scratchy striated concrete is the ticket!

But as for the vote, I keep thinking of an essay I read once by Oleg Grabar, called "The Symbolic Appropriation of the Land," that talks about how the Dome of the Rock appropriated a place that had been sacred to both Christians and Jews in Jerusalem, but that asserted Muslim dominance through a strong architectural gesture. Anybody that thinks minarets on the landscape don't carry some kind of significance is fooling themselves. The big question is whether or not the Swiss want to stick their collective heads in the sand and pretend there aren't Muslims there anyway. One way to give a symbol power is to ban it.

[Freedom Canadian]

Well, they would be totally out of place there, architecturally speaking.

That has nothing to do with it.

You are still free to build, say, a 20-story japanese style shinto shrine in Switzerland. Or a replica of the great pyramid of giza.

It's all about persecuting muslims. Which I'm not sure I'm always against, honestly, but let's be honest here. :D

[Lady_Acoma]

It's all about persecuting muslims. Which I'm not sure I'm always against, honestly, but let's be honest here. :D

What does honesty have to do with the intranets? :confused:

[Freedom Canadian]

What does honesty have to do with the intranets? :confused:

I always strive for honesty, Lady Acoma. Don't you ? :D

[Aloysius]

they've managed to make themselves look like fools and xenophobes in one fell swoop. looks like the worst aspects of the 'french method of integration' have rubbed off on the swiss.

There are a lot of minarets in France and they will never be forbidden, because freedom of religion is real, here. Swiss is something else, especially the german speaking parts, who are as conservative and xenophobe as this "votation" shows. Remember that in the 19th, they forbid the catholic to build churches. IIRC, they even go as far as to wage war about something like that.


Now, the real funny part is all the outrage coming from places like Egypt, where it's not only forbidden to build churches but even changing of religion can lead you in jail (or worse).

[Limper]

There are a lot of minarets in France and they will never be forbidden, because freedom of religion is real, here. Swiss is something else, especially the german speaking parts, who are as conservative and xenophobe as this "votation" shows. Remember that in the 19th, they forbid the catholic to build churches. IIRC, they even go as far as to wage war about something like that.


Now, the real funny part is all the outrage coming from places like Egypt, where it's not only forbidden to build churches but even changing of religion can lead you in jail (or worse).

Excellent points.:)

We have one minaret near my house and through the front window of my favorite hole in the wall Mexican joint it rises in cheap majesty over a White Castles restaurant.

[Ergeheilalt]

I go to Arizona, New Mexico or part of California in the desert I want to see adobe, flat roofs and cactus that looks like something from a Road Runner cartoon.

With all due respect (which is to say, little or none), I live here, I don't care what you *want* to see. I live here, I see it every day, I would rather have architectural freedom.

I find that these strict building codes get in the way of sound building sciences that solve energy, comfort, and health issues.

[Dacke]

Personally, I am against any restrictions in what people are allowed to build on their own property except for


Safety-based reasons (must adhere to fire codes etc.).
Very rough zoning guidelines (don't put heavy industries in residential areas).


But if I want to build a mint-green house with pink polka dots, that occupies every square meter of my property(1) and has crenelations on top, that's my business, not the government's.

(1) Yes, I realize there would be practical issues with that since that means there's nowhere on my property for builders to actually work. It's the principle I'm after.

[AriesOmega]

With all due respect (which is to say, little or none), I live here, I don't care what you *want* to see. I live here, I see it every day, I would rather have architectural freedom.

I find that these strict building codes get in the way of sound building sciences that solve energy, comfort, and health issues.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect...which is to say little or none...I grew up THERE and I feel it is part of the cultural heritage as does my parents, my grandparents and so on. C'mon...we invented the iPod...we have all the smart "Steve" and "Bills" in the world. We can keep cultural hertiage AND have a house that solve the issues mentioned above.

[Droid101]

With all due respect...which is to say little or none...I grew up THERE and I feel it is part of the cultural heritage as does my parents, my grandparents and so on. C'mon...we invented the iPod...we have all the smart "Steve" and "Bills" in the world. We can keep cultural hertiage AND have a house that solve the issues mentioned above.

Nope, I live there too and I vote "who gives a shit, build smarter not less efficient" along with Erge. Two against one! Two against one! :tongue:

[Schizm]

Nope, I live there too and I vote "who gives a shit, build smarter not less efficient" along with Erge. Two against one! Two against one! :tongue:

make that three against one.

Because I live in NM, and the whole "it's gotta look southwestern" thing drives me up a fucking creek.

[AriesOmega]

Nope, I live there too and I vote "who gives a shit, build smarter not less efficient" along with Erge. Two against one! Two against one! :tongue:

Your votes don't count...besides...I like them odds. http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/images/smilies/signs/nadt.gif
I have always been outnumbered...no big deal

I'm your huckleberry :D

[Schizm]

Your votes don't count...besides...I like them odds. http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/images/smilies/signs/nadt.gif
I have always been outnumbered...no big deal

I'm your huckleberry :D

actually, since you don't actually live in one of the places that has this kind of retarded law, your vote doesn't count, while ours actually are counted. In other words, quit trying to tell us how the fuck to build our houses and live our lives, easterner. :tongue:

[Droid101]

actually, since you don't actually live in one of the places that has this kind of retarded law, your vote doesn't count, while ours actually are counted. In other words, quit trying to tell us how the fuck to build our houses and live our lives, easterner. :tongue:

Damn Yankees. Er, yeah.

I think it's all well and good for certain neighborhoods to do what they want (for instance, my last apartment complex was the Spanish-roof style). But I definitely don't need to be seeing that shit everywhere I go. I like variety. Which, by definition, means I like California.

[Lady_Acoma]

In the town where I grew up a guy started a project to turn this dumpy house of his into a castle... He has been in the process of doing this for about 15yrs. now I think. It looks totally out of place, but hey more power to the guy for his creativity and ingenuity in doing it.

The only problem I see with certain changes in building styles (the above could definitely be listed as one in cases) is that it can affect the property values of those living around said structure.

[Dacke]

The only problem I see with certain changes in building styles (the above could definitely be listed as one in cases) is that it can affect the property values of those living around said structure.
To which I say, "Suck it up." Unless I directly affect your property, I'm not responsible for its value.

[AriesOmega]

actually, since you don't actually live in one of the places that has this kind of retarded law, your vote doesn't count, while ours actually are counted. In other words, quit trying to tell us how the fuck to build our houses and live our lives, easterner. :tongue:

Don't be hatin on da East Coast. :D

No really I do miss the desert but the wife would friggin melt out there. She hated going to see my folks back in the 90's. We were driving through Baker and went by the Bun Boy and the giant thermomater read 98 degrees at 3 or 4 in the morning! Yeah...she being an Easterner hated it. She wondered why anyone would willingly live out there. I tried to explain the beauty of the Mojave...but it fell on over heated ears.

[Droid101]

Yeah...she being an Easterner hated it. She wondered why anyone would willingly live out there.

It's called air conditioning.

It's called beautiful beaches with girls in bikini's all year round.

It's called DOMINATION.

Hey, how's the weather where you're at? ;)

[Lady_Acoma]

To which I say, "Suck it up." Unless I directly affect your property, I'm not responsible for its value.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. In areas where there are homeowners associations I would see where the neighbors can really complain. You knew what you were getting into when you moved into that sort of self perverted hell hole though.

[Ergeheilalt]

I will complete the thread derailment with the following caveat.

Squat adobe structures, when correctly built, are excellent energy savers. Adobe walls have great thermal mass and a fairly low emissivity. They're great candidates for evening precooling. But, for example, San Francisco's crazy building ordinances prevent people from installing solar PV on their roof tops due to some city building height restrictions. And they're not there because they're afraid of wind loads or earthquake safety - it's because they want to preserve the historic aesthetic. :rolleyes:

[Name Lips]

But even in the southwest, they don't really build with adobe much anymore. They build sheetrock-and-two-by-four houses just like everywhere else -- they're just flat roofed and stuccoed up to look like adobe. Some of them even have the ends of faux wooden beams sticking out to add to the illusion.

[Limper]

And they're not there because they're afraid of wind loads or earthquake safety - it's because they want to preserve the historic aesthetic. :rolleyes:

Art once again conflicts with functionality.

[The Winslow]

Art once again conflicts with functionality.

Pretentious, faux art opposes functionality. "It's art! It's all in the concept! It doesn't need to work!"

True art, on the other hand, is always functional. Art thrives on constraints, after all.

In the architecture field, traditional buildings were built in a given way because of sound reasons. People have always liked comfort, but they didn't make powerful air conditioner and central heating systems way back then. So it was important to make a house that would be, by its very design, adequately suited to its climate, which doesn't get too cold in winter or too hot in summer, which doesn't crumble under the weight of snow on its roof, which isn't dismantled by strong winds or taken away by flash floods, etc.

Recently, though, with all our machines and techniques, we've been able to craft about anything anyway we want. Good insulation was no longer needed since we could just waste more energy heating something that can't keep heat, or cooling something that's can't keep coolness. In a form of hubris, we forgot exactly why traditional architectural styles were traditional. So, people started, for example, building Turkish swimming pools in Russia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3492313.stm), and follow the link to see the outcome.

[Ergeheilalt]

Recently, though, with all our machines and techniques, we've been able to craft about anything anyway we want. Good insulation was no longer needed since we could just waste more energy heating something that can keep heat, or cooling something that's can't keep coolness. In a form of hubris, we forgot exactly why traditional architectural styles were traditional.

If you're interested, you can find some fascinating articles, lectures, and powerpoint presentations on the web about LEED buildings. LEED, for those of ya'll who are not building science nerds, stands for Leadership in Environment and Energy Design. It's a big set of standards that is ostensibly supposed to rank a building on how sustainable it is. It's been out for about 8 years now and there are enough buildings with the certifications to do some good statistical analysis on the program as a whole.

And the program pretty much sucks in it's present incarnation. So the United States Green Building Council (USGBC), the American Society of Heating Air-conditioning and Refrigeration Engineers (ASHRAE), Illuminating Engineering Society of North America (IESNA), and others have been tweaking, kicking, bashing, and throwing out the old standards in an effort to get persistent sustainability. It's quite a task to attempt, since you've got a whole lot of plain old ignorance between the here and now and their program goals. It's an interesting time to be in the field.