Racism, Alive And Well In The South

[Harry]

In way of introduction, Representative Cohen won our local House District, replacing Harold Ford, Jr. last year. Almost from the time the ballots were counted, Nikki Tinker, one of his losing opponents, started campaigning against him for the next election. That was all kinds of wrong in my book. Cohen wasn't even in Washington yet before she started anew.

Now, Tinker is riling up the black community against him, using in a large part this Hate Crimes bill, which oddly enough, was originally so-sponsored by Ford, Jr. The thing about this that really bugs me to no end, though, is the continued assertation that Cohen is unqualified to represent a black constituency, and that somehow the local blacks are now disenfranchised, even though Cohen got a majority of the black vote. Also, in spite of the fact that there is a large white contingent in this district, we can only be represented by a black man.

Jeez, Cohen is already a heap of minorities rolled up into one - geeky, Jewish, gay liberal Southerner. But, he is not qualified to represent me, urh, us, because he's not black?

Cohen meets with black ministers group over his support of hate crimes bill

Tempers flared and emotions erupted Tuesday at a meeting between U.S. Rep. Steve Cohen and a group of black ministers, stemming from the freshman congressman's support for a federal hate crimes bill.

More than 100 ministers and guests showed up Tuesday for the weekly meeting of the Memphis Baptist Ministerial Association, where Cohen had been invited to speak. During a volatile question-and-answer forum that followed, many loudly commented that Cohen, who is white, can't adequately represent the primarily black Ninth District.

U.S. Rep. Steve Cohen addressed a sometimes-hostile crowd during a meeting of the Memphis Baptist Ministerial Association on Tuesday. "This is obviously politically motivated, since Harold Ford Jr. supported this (hate crimes) bill and no one ever had a problem with it then," Cohen said afterward.

U.S. Rep. Steve Cohen addressed a sometimes-hostile crowd during a meeting of the Memphis Baptist Ministerial Association on Tuesday. "This is obviously politically motivated, since Harold Ford Jr. supported this (hate crimes) bill and no one ever had a problem with it then," Cohen said afterward.

Apostle Alton Williams expressed concerns over the federal hate crimes bill. "It's not political. I'm just concerned about what it will possibly do to the Christian church," he said.

"He's not black and he can't represent me, that's just the bottom line," said Rev. Robert Poindexter of Mt. Moriah Baptist Church. "I don't care how people try to dress is up, it always comes down to race and he can't know what it's like to be black."

Comments and outbursts like that caused leaders to say the group will send Cohen a letter of apology.

"We didn't control it well, but it was never our intention to offend anybody," said Rev. Stanford L. Hunt, the group's secretary and pastor at Beulah Baptist Church. "Things definitely got out of hand."

Cohen agreed.

"I was not treated the way a congressman or an elected official or an invited guest should have been treated," Cohen said afterward. "It was supposed to be my time to come and address this issue. I never expected anything like this."

Cohen later suggested the meeting had been a setup, as a way for Nikki Tinker supporters to gain momentum.

Tinker, who is black, lost to Cohen in last August's Democratic primary by 4,459 votes. She has already started a bid to challenge Cohen in 2008 and also has spoken to the ministerial association.

"This is obviously politically motivated, since Harold Ford Jr. supported this bill and no one ever had a problem with it then," Cohen said. ... "It's going before the Senate now, so why aren't they calling Alexander and Corker instead of beating me up?"

Cohen was invited to speak to members after the group publicly criticized him two weeks ago for backing the hate crimes bill. The bill passed the House in May, and a Senate vote could come as early as next month.

Dr. LaSimba Gray, pastor of New Sardis Baptist Church and president the local chapter of the Rainbow PUSH Coalition, told Cohen that the ministers' group opposed the bill and members were offended by suggestions that the black and gay communities are somehow connected.

"In all my 40 years of civil rights work I've never seen a gay water fountain and I've never seen a gay entrance to a building," Gray said. "We have a right to be apprehensive about this bill and say it's not necessary."

Cohen said the hate crimes legislation would benefit African-Americans, who are victims of more than half the hate crimes each year.

"If you say we don't need a hate crimes bill, then you're saying all those racists in the '60s don't deserve the toughest sentences for the terrible acts of violence they committed," Cohen said. "Hate crimes are a way of saying that you better not get out of line or you'll end up in the bottom of the river. We've got to stand up to that."

A number of national organizations agree. More than 230 groups -- including the national Rainbow PUSH Coalition -- endorsed the bill. Also supporting the bill are the NAACP, American Civil Liberties Union and the National Urban League.

The bill increases sentencing options for crimes committed because of factors such as race, religion and sexual orientation and broadens the scope of the federal government to prosecute such cases.

And that's the problem, some said. Many expressed concern that the legislation could prevent them from preaching against homosexuality and expose them to lawsuits.

"If this becomes law, then the gay advocates will start suing preachers for preaching what they (gays) see as hate," said Apostle Alton R. Williams, pastor of World Overcomers Outreach Ministries Church. "It's not political. I'm just concerned about what it will possibly do to the Christian church."

But supporters emphasize that the bill will do nothing of the kind.

"The NAACP would never support anything that stifles freedom of speech, so these ministers have no basis for their concern," said Hilary O. Shelton, director of the NAACP Washington, D.C., bureau. "I wish they would actually read the bill and try to understand it."

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2007/aug/29/e29cohen/

Regardless of all of this, to me one of the most ridiculous things about Nikki Tinker is that she's not even from around here. She's lived in Memphis all of about five years, I think, and is something of a carpetbagger in my mind. That, and she's something of a tool for corporate interests, who's hardly seen the black community of Memphis outside of her locally recruited advisers.

[Northcott]

"He's not black and he can't represent me, that's just the bottom line," said Rev. Robert Poindexter of Mt. Moriah Baptist Church. "I don't care how people try to dress is up, it always comes down to race and he can't know what it's like to be black."

Oh yeah, that's a holy man, alright. Say... Mr. Reverend, sir? If that guy can't represent you because he's not the right skin colour, does that mean that Jesus doesn't love you 'cause you're black?

Fucking racist prick.

[TiQuinn]

Trolling for the black vote by way of racism aside, it's not uncommon for House Reps to almost immediately have to gear up for the next campaign, because the next vote is just two years off. This usually happens when a new Rep comes in, and is still potentially weak and open to attack. It's happening all over the country, actually.

[Dacke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9CSnlb-ymA

[The Winslow]

Jeez, Cohen is already a heap of minorities rolled up into one - geeky, Jewish, gay liberal Southerner. But, he is not qualified to represent me, urh, us, because he's not black?

And he's not a hard-of-hearing midget with daltonism and a peg leg. I doubt he's gonna be anything for the people with disabilities.

[Stratego]

"In all my 40 years of civil rights work I've never seen a gay water fountain and I've never seen a gay entrance to a building," Gray said. "We have a right to be apprehensive about this bill and say it's not necessary."


Well of course not. There is absolutely no discrimination against homosexuals in America.


Also, he probably never noticed the gay entrance to a building because it is in the rear. Ahem.

[Harry]

Oh yeah, that's a holy man, alright. Say... Mr. Reverend, sir? If that guy can't represent you because he's not the right skin colour, does that mean that Jesus doesn't love you 'cause you're black?

Fucking racist prick.

Considering that the fellow you quote has his deacons come by my store every single Sunday morning to pick up a 200 piece chicken order...

As much as I'd love to, I guess I can't just up and tell them that they shouldn't buy their chicken from me, since as a white man I obviously can't begin to fathom how a black man wants his chicken.

[Harry]

Oh yeah. Uh. Guess I just outed Steve Cohen.

He's not out of the closet, but everyone around here knows it.

[Northcott]

Considering that the fellow you quote has his deacons come by my store every single Sunday morning to pick up a 200 piece chicken order...

As much as I'd love to, I guess I can't just up and tell them that they shouldn't buy their chicken from me, since as a white man I obviously can't begin to fathom how a black man wants his chicken.

1) You're pulling my leg. A 200 piece chicken order?

2) I'd pay good money to be there to witness that. And record it for posterity.

[Harry]

The 200 piece chicken orders happen all the time. Had a 300 piece order this past Sunday, which turned into a bit of a headache for me. Last night, Anfernee Hardaway's folks called in a 200 piece order.

We cook anything for anybody. We even supply Passover dinners for the Federal Penitentiary in Forrest City, AR, which is where most of the Orthodox Jews get locked up.

[Droid101]

The 200 piece chicken orders happen all the time. Had a 300 piece order this past Sunday, which turned into a bit of a headache for me. Last night, Anfernee Hardaway's folks called in a 200 piece order.

We cook anything for anybody. We even supply Passover dinners for the Federal Penitentiary in Forrest City, AR, which is where most of the Orthodox Jews get locked up.

That's hysterical.

[Harry]

That's hysterical.

Being a grocer can have its little perks. Not quite the same as being a Record Dude, but when I was a Record Dude I never got called to open a condom case for Isaac Hayes.

[Droid101]

Being a grocer can have its little perks. Not quite the same as being a Record Dude, but when I was a Record Dude I never got called to open a condom case for Isaac Hayes.

Where the hell do you work? The duuuurty south??

[Harry]

Where the hell do you work? The duuuurty south??

Well, The Dirty South is all over. There's only one Home of Crunk.

[Scutisorex Shrewlord]

Well, The Dirty South is all over. There's only one Home of Crunk.

YEEEEEEEEAHHH!!!!!

[doc]

He ain't Black enough ? Sounds like Pine Bluff Politics. I had a friend from Fall River Mass. tell me she wasn't racest till she moved here, now it's reverse racism.

[Harry]

Another bit that is absolutely absurd:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2007/sep/05/gc5noose/

3 fired at GPAC over stage knots
Worker saw typical loops as lynch nooses, says upset alderman

The City of Germantown has fired three theater workers after another employee complained some stage-rope knots resembled lynching nooses.

However, at least one alderman is challenging the terminations as a knee-jerk reaction to a misunderstanding, and is working to get the firings reversed.

The Aug. 24 firing of Germantown Performing Art Centre's technical director, Matthew Strampe, and two part-timers occurred after another city employee apparently complained of a hostile work environment, city spokesman Stacey Ewell said.

"A few weeks ago there were some nooses tied in some ropes backstage," she said.

City Administrator Patrick Lawton fired the three after "extensive interviews" with people at GPAC, Ewell said.

But the firings left Alderman Carole Hinely "very disappointed."

Hinely sits on the GPAC Board of Directors as the alderman liaison.

She said the knots are typical looping knots that stagehands use to make it easier to grip the ropes.

The city had appropriated money to refurbish the stage floor, so the ropes had been pulled down to raise the curtain for the work, Hinely said.

The employee who complained did not work for GPAC and may not be familiar with the theater knots, she said.

The African-American employee who complained "looks up and sees these knots. They were loops looking I guess like a hangman's loop."

"These people did nothing, nothing, nothing wrong."

She described Lawton's actions as a "knee-jerk" reaction.

Lawton did not return a reporter's phone calls Tuesday.

Hinely said she talked to Lawton about the issue Tuesday morning.

"His general position was he thought it was such a sensitive situation that he needed to fire the people, that they did something very dumb and insensitive."

[Northcott]

"His general position was he thought it was such a sensitive situation that he needed to fire the people, that they did something very dumb and insensitive."

Good for him! You wouldn't want to stop, take a breath, and make sure you're doing the right thing, after all. Better to just jump into the fray, and the devil may care!

[Harry]

This is a follow-up article from today which has a whole lot of bizarre justification going on for the firings, including comments from theater people who say nooses are not used.

I can tell you flat out, having served at the Murray State University Theater as a Flymaster for a number of productions, you WILL see a lot of nooses. And all sorts of other knotwork. But if you lower some of the ropes, you will see nooses. They are a fact of theater life.

It also irks me that, apparently, no white man has ever been hung. My father, who lived though some of the abuses of the pre-civil rights era, contends that he heard of or saw many bad things happen, but never heard of a real lynching, at least in his parts.

It also makes me wonder how what I consider to be my best play, the finest one I ever wrote, would fly now. It was called, of course, The Hanging Man.


http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2007/sep/06/gc6noose/

The Germantown administration on Wednesday defended its firing of three theater workers who tied stage-rigging ropes into hangman's nooses.

City Administrator Patrick Lawton likened the knots left hanging at Germantown Performing Arts Theatre to cross-burnings and swastikas.

Germantown mayor Sharon Goldsworthy calls a work session to order Wednesday night. After a discussion that was closed to reporters, the board voted unanimously to support the firings.

"It is the symbol of hatred and bigotry," he said.

Meanwhile, the city took criticism from people inside and outside the local theater community for either over- reacting to or misinterpreting the knots.

"I've seen plenty of stagehands whittling their time away by tying all kinds of knots," said Bob Hetherington, chairman of the department of Theatre and Dance at the University of Memphis.

"If they were trying to send a racial message of any kind, the fly system of a theater would be the last place anyone would see it."

But someone did see the nooses.

Another city employee, an African American, complained of a hostile work environment when he saw the nooses.

Even if GPAC technical director Matthew Strampe and part-time stagehands Michael Laraway and William Martin didn't fully grasp the racist connotations of the nooses, Lawton said, "absence of knowledge is not a defense. It is wrong."

The city fired them Aug. 24.

Lawton spoke out Wednesday in the face of sharp criticism that he was being hyper-politically correct and overreacting to knots never meant to suggest lynchings of black people.

The Board of Mayor and Aldermen met in a called meeting Wednesday night. But they closed part of the session because of threatened litigation.

After the closed session, which lasted an hour and 15 minutes, the board opened the meeting and voted unanimously to support the administration regarding the terminations.

The unanimous vote included Alderman Carole Hinely, who had indicated Tuesday that she thought the firings were an overreaction based on a misunderstanding. She changed her position after hearing from administration officials.

Strampe, a 29-year-old University of South Dakota graduate, had been GPAC's technical director nearly a year.

Late Wednesday, the administration made available photos of the knots and some details of its investigation.

According to the city's prepared statements, Strampe acknowledged he asked Laraway and Martin to show him how to tie a noose and that it was a knot hardly ever used in theater.

Also, one of the workers put his head through the noose and all three joked about the "hangman's noose,'' according to the administration.

The theater workers explained they made the knots to raise the rope off the stage floor while it was being refinished.

"If the purpose of the knot-tying was to secure the ends of the rope to get them off the floor and out of the way so floor refinishers could work, why were chairs left on the floor?" the administration asked.

"Why does the technical director for a performance theater not have an adequate knowledge of knotting and ask stage workers to teach him, by his own description, a rarely used knot?"

Laraway gave The Commercial Appeal his account of what happened.

"I was working with a gentleman I had never worked with before and we were talking about how to tie different knots. I asked him if he knew how to tie a bowline and he said yes. Then I asked him if he knew how to tie a hangman's noose, and I showed him.

"... There were actually six ropes hanging there, but only three were nooses because it was the end of the day and we didn't want to finish tying the others."

GPAC's entire staff, including artistic manager Tania Castroverde Moskalenko, stood behind the employees in a closed meeting with Lawton, Laraway said.

While a hangman's noose is not typically used in theater rigging, local theater officials say versions of the knots have other common uses.

Jay Morris, the new technical director at Playhouse on the Square, said his main concern about seeing a noose backstage would involve safety.

"It's like any other slipknot in that you could get your hand or your neck caught in it and it could cinch up on you," Morris said.

"Personally, if I saw one, the first thing that popped into my head wouldn't be the racial implications but the unsafeness of it.

"Of course," he added, "I'm also new to the South."

[Andreas]

I hope they get to fire anyone who handles swords, guns or knifes on stage, they where used to kill people, too.

And don´t get me starting about people who work at theaters and talk (some even do it on stage!). Do you know how many people (and children! Someone think about the children!) where emotional hurt by sharp words?

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Oh yeah, that's a holy man, alright. Say... Mr. Reverend, sir? If that guy can't represent you because he's not the right skin colour, does that mean that Jesus doesn't love you 'cause you're black?

Fucking racist prick.

I thought Jesus was black - Chris Rock said so in Dogma.

[Northcott]

I thought Jesus was black - Chris Rock said so in Dogma.

I know some people dislike, or even outright hate that flick, but I laughed so hard I wept.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

I know some people dislike, or even outright hate that flick, but I laughed so hard I wept.

And yet when *I* make fun of ridiculous religious beliefs you go off like an Islamic protester at a Satanic Verses book signing....

[Little reminder of how our feud started: Scientology thread. I pointed out how most religious beliefs are as ridiculous as the Xenu myth. You went off like a Palestinian on an Israeli bus. I took me days to get all that powder puff out of my shirt.]

[Harry]

Sorry, Atticus, you seem like a swell fellow, but every mention of god or jeebus does not require your attention.

Could you humor me and make a post pertinent to the topic of racism? I know you fellows down there have your own ideas about wops and greasers.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Sorry, Atticus, you seem like a swell fellow, but every mention of god or jeebus does not require your attention.

Could you humor me and make a post pertinent to the topic of racism? I know you fellows down there have your own ideas about wops and greasers.

This was me calling Northcott out for his inconsistencies. I agree that it's not on topic here.

I was actually trying to be funny. Oh well. Sorry.

[Ancalagon]

This was me calling Northcott out for his inconsistencies. I agree that it's not on topic here.

I was actually trying to be funny. Oh well. Sorry.

You're digging yourself in a hole there buddy.

[Hastur T. Fannon]

And yet when *I* make fun of ridiculous religious beliefs you go off like an Islamic protester at a Satanic Verses book signing....

I think the difference is that Kevin Smith loves what he's parodying. What's he's mocking is the froth which (and I've just had a realisation here - see posts passim) are the only bits you like

I remember reading about the writing of "Life of Brian" (original working title "Jesus Christ - Lust For Glory"). They went back to the original source material, re-read the Gospels and either Palin or Cleese (I can't remember which and I'm not digging out another book for another Atticus response) pointed out that Jesus is actually saying some pretty good stuff. So they had to scrap some rather good material ("I don't want any disembodied spiritual entities sheathing their pork swords in my intended") because it didn't fit the story they now wanted to tell. There was a point to this paragraph when I started it, but now I've forgotten it. I think it was something to do with the difference between parody and satire...

[Atticus_of_Amber]

I think the difference is that Kevin Smith loves what he's parodying. What's he's mocking is the froth which (and I've just had a realisation here - see posts passim) are the only bits you like

Wrong.

Smith was mocking the doctrine - which is one of the things I mock too.

[Hatter]

Well it is pretty common knowledge that Kevin Smith is Catholic and his movie sums up his point through Rufus (paraphrasing) "The problem is that people took a good idea and turned it into a religion"

[Hastur T. Fannon]

Smith was mocking the doctrine - which is one of the things I mock too.

The doctrine is part of the froth. As much as I love the Nicene Creed and get annoyed when we use a shorter, or (worse, grrr) barely authorised version during Communion, I'd be the first to admit that it's an attempt to put a common framework around the Church's shared experiences of God

[Hatter]

bah double-post.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

The doctrine is part of the froth. As much as I love the Nicene Creed and get annoyed when we use a shorter, or (worse, grrr) barely authorised version during Communion, I'd be the first to admit that it's an attempt to put a common framework around the Church's shared experiences of God

The creed is froth?? People died over that thing, Richard.

I'm increasingly suspecting you aren't a Christian at all. You're a mystic. Now I really have to recommend you read Sam Harris. You'd be amazed what you have in common with that uber-atheist mystic.

[The Winslow]

I pointed out how most religious beliefs are as ridiculous as the Xenu myth.
You've already heard the "way, way more retarded than that" quote, I guess?

Things like the virgin birth of a divine man are quite irrational, but they're not retarded like space DC-10 and torturing people by showing them Mickey Mouse serials. The myths surrounding Jesus appeal to old, archetypal ideas (seen in many other religions), which are powerfully engrained in the human psyche.

Space sixties, however, are not.

The creed is froth?? People died over that thing, Richard.

This, in itself, is not a good argument, and you should know it. People die over the silliest things.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

You've already heard the "way, way more retarded than that" quote, I guess?

Things like the virgin birth of a divine man are quite irrational, but they're not retarded like space DC-10 and torturing people by showing them Mickey Mouse serials. The myths surrounding Jesus appeal to old, archetypal ideas (seen in many other religions), which are powerfully engrained in the human psyche.

Space sixties, however, are not.

Frankly, I honestly fail to see the difference. Go actually read the bible. Parts of it read like a bronze age acid trip.

People die over the silliest things.

Huh?!? I mean, really, huh?!?! That is my argument. :rolleyes:

[The Winslow]

Parts of it read like a bronze age acid trip.

Which is the difference with Scientology because Scientology reads like a parody where Hubbard was testing the limits of what people can believe.

There's a difference between using themes that resonate deeply with the human subconscious, and using random bullshit. Both may be bullshit, but the former has a deeper effect on someone's mind and imagination. Changing people who looked back into a statue of salt refers to a lot of ideas that have surfaced into other myths (see Orpheus who lost Eurydice because he looked back, it's not exactly the same thing but you should be able to see the common trends).

You say it's like an acid trip. Well, an acid trip is all in your head. Scientology is all in Ron Hubbard's ass.

Huh?!? I mean, really, huh?!?! That is my argument. :rolleyes:

You're saying it's not froth because people died for it. I'm saying people have absolutely no compunction against dying for froth. You're saying it's your own argument. If that's one of your lawyerly tricks, it's not working.

[Hastur T. Fannon]

I'm increasingly suspecting you aren't a Christian at all. You're a mystic.

They're not contradictory positions (and thanks for the complement by the way, though I don't really have the time to do enough contemplation). Rowen's also a mystic

Now I really have to recommend you read Sam Harris. You'd be amazed what you have in common with that uber-atheist mystic.

He's on already on my list, but not very close to the top

[Freedom Canadian]

:hissyfit: OFF TOPIC !!!


Oh yeah, that's a holy man, alright. Say... Mr. Reverend, sir? If that guy can't represent you because he's not the right skin colour, does that mean that Jesus doesn't love you 'cause you're black?

Fucking racist prick.

Yeah, and if they do elect a black dude, then he won't represent the white people.

Oh no, democracy cannot work. :(

[The Winslow]

Yeah, and if they do elect a black dude, then he won't represent the white people.

Oh no, democracy cannot work. :(

White people don't need to be represented, unless they're the minority. It's how democracy works: the rule of the minority over the majority.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

They're not contradictory positions (and thanks for the complement by the way, though I don't really have the time to do enough contemplation). Rowen's also a mystic.

It was meant as a compliment.

[Sam Harris] on already on my list, but not very close to the top

It was Harris' mysticism that really blew my mind. That and his argument that the only true mystic is an atheist.

[Hastur T. Fannon]

It was Harris' mysticism that really blew my mind. That and his argument that the only true mystic is an atheist.

If this is a negative theology thing, then I think I might already agree with him...

[Northcott]

Yeah, and if they do elect a black dude, then he won't represent the white people.

Oh no, democracy cannot work. :(

It's funny in a very sad kind of way: all that effort by good, intelligent people to end segregation, and these yokels are implicitly advocating a return to it.

If this is a negative theology thing, then I think I might already agree with him...

Whoa, there, Rich! That's just "word games" remember? ;)

I think I'll go start another thread. That funky little button that allows us to do that is horribly under-used.

[cnath.rm]

It's funny in a very sad kind of way: all that effort by good, intelligent people to end segregation, and these yokels are implicitly advocating a return to it.Only some of it however, there should never be whites only shops, but minority owned/focused shops/organizations/awards are just fine afterall...

There was a group of students who were ticked at Michigan State Univ. they didn't want the univ. to get getting the benefit of their racial numbers when the univ wasn't giving them the support that they wanted (a building devoted to multicultural studies instead of just a center in another building was one of the major demands if I remember right through it's been a few years) they went to the registrars office and changed their race in the records to white... dang... you should have heard the cries of fury when they were told that they might lose some of their scholarships and grants that were based upon race... It was so unfair afterall that they might lose them...

[Freedom Canadian]

you should have heard the cries of fury when they were told that they might lose some of their scholarships and grants that were based upon race...

LOL, PWNT

[cnath.rm]

LOL, PWNTthe best part was how they were surprised/incensed by the idea that the scholarships might have only been given to them because of their race instead of other possible merits they might have..

[Northcott]

the best part was how they were surprised/incensed by the idea that the scholarships might have only been given to them because of their race instead of other possible merits they might have..


To paraphrase that bastion of wisdom, the Tick -- "Reality is a harsh mistress!"

[Atticus_of_Amber]

If this is a negative theology thing, then I think I might already agree with him...

I'm still not clear on what "negative theology" means. It still seems like a massive conjuring trick to me.

Harris' point is that the only way to understand the links between contemplative practice and ethical behaviour and the links between contemplative practice and human fulfilment is to take a rigorously scientific approach to studying it.

It's what he means when he says that the he thinks the most effective contemplative/ethical practices have been discovered by the Buddhists, but that, when we've scientifically sorted it all out, we will no more think of those practices as being Buddhist than we now think of physics as Christian or algebra as Islamic (or, I'd argue, just war theory as Catholic).

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Which is the difference with Scientology because Scientology reads like a parody where Hubbard was testing the limits of what people can believe.

There's a difference between using themes that resonate deeply with the human subconscious, and using random bullshit. Both may be bullshit, but the former has a deeper effect on someone's mind and imagination. Changing people who looked back into a statue of salt refers to a lot of ideas that have surfaced into other myths (see Orpheus who lost Eurydice because he looked back, it's not exactly the same thing but you should be able to see the common trends).

You say it's like an acid trip. Well, an acid trip is all in your head. Scientology is all in Ron Hubbard's ass.

So, what you're saying is that the Bible is full of acid trips that are more interesting and resonant than the Xeun myth? That's a reasonable position. But also an irrelevant one. They're both as ridiculous as each other as truth-claims. But as literature, one is superior to the other. I agree.

But then it's like saying Tolkein fans are better than Slavatore fans. Sure, Tolkein contains some deep and clever stuff and Salvatore is a hack, but neither group of fans claim that Elrond or Drizzt actually existed.

In short, as truth claims, Xenu is as crazy as most of the stuff in the Bible. But as literature, sure, there's lots of stuff in the Bible that shows up Hubbard for the hack he was.

[Harry]

Ah, back again to the topic of race! Thanks, AoA, I knew you had in it you. We all know, of course, that Drizz't gets the hatred because of the color of his skin, right? If he were lily-white like Aragon, there would be no doubt he would be in the same literary class.

Thanks for pointing that out. I feel so awful now about doubting your ability to stay on topic for once.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Ah, back again to the topic of race! Thanks, AoA, I knew you had in it you. We all know, of course, that Drizz't gets the hatred because of the color of his skin, right? If he were lily-white like Aragon, there would be no doubt he would be in the same literary class.

Thanks for pointing that out. I feel so awful now about doubting your ability to stay on topic for once.

Bugger. The way I posted was to respond to Helga's post, without looking at the thread title. You're quite right that this discussion belongs elsewhere. My apologies.

As for racism in fantassy - and what's with the Haradrim, eh? And then there's Darth Vader. Clearly an attack on the black man.

[Northcott]

Ah, back again to the topic of race! Thanks, AoA, I knew you had in it you. We all know, of course, that Drizz't gets the hatred because of the color of his skin, right? If he were lily-white like Aragon, there would be no doubt he would be in the same literary class.

Thanks for pointing that out. I feel so awful now about doubting your ability to stay on topic for once.

Damn, Harry... that dry wit of yours is getting drier and sharper as time goes on. Save for your damnably wretched opinion of 300, which forced me to despise you because of your mad hatred for all things Greek, I cannot help but respect you. ;)

[cnath.rm]

There are a lot of people to whom the subject of race is such an emotional issue and to whom their race is such a huge part of their identity that it is all but impossible to have a non-emotional discussion on the subject without incurring hard feelings/anger and/or accusations that you yourself are a racist for daring to question their beliefs. :( This sadly doesn't always stop when the people involved are highly educated, though it seems to be at least some less.

Ah, back again to the topic of race! Thanks, AoA, I knew you had in it you. We all know, of course, that Drizz't gets the hatred because of the color of his skin, right? If he were lily-white like Aragon, there would be no doubt he would be in the same literary class.

Thanks for pointing that out. I feel so awful now about doubting your ability to stay on topic for once.and now to attempt to continue the return to topic while continuing the threadjack itself... :p I think the parody bumper sticker that we all need would go something like this...

I don't have a problem with Drizz't... I just have issues with his fans...**

**explanation if you don't catch the ref
rip off of the "I don't have a problem with Jesus, just lots of issues with his followers" type bumper stickers.

[Northcott]

For some reason the name Drizz't always makes me think of a little spritzer/dispenser for salad dressing.

"I just drizz't my salad!"

"Really? What flavour?"

"Raspberry vinegarette. Would you like some?"

"Yes, please."

SFX: drizz't!

[Xavier Lang]

For some reason the name Drizz't always makes me think of a little spritzer/dispenser for salad dressing.

"I just drizz't my salad!"

"Really? What flavour?"

"Raspberry vinegarette. Would you like some?"

"Yes, please."

SFX: drizz't!

You must have too many pure and innocent thoughts to be able to type "drizz't my salad" and actually go to Rasperberry vinegarette from there.

[Northcott]

You must have too many pure and innocent thoughts to be able to type "drizz't my salad" and actually go to Rasperberry vinegarette from there.

...

... Dude. I must now hate you for going there. Never mind not being in the same ballpark, I wasn't even headed to that game. :expressionless:

[Space Cadet B^3]

In Coffeyville on Saturday, Mom and Dad took me to the Sirloin Stockade for lunch (I don't know why, it's tradition) anyway, a large group of African-American men came in all wearing black suits with white straw cowboy hats. I had the priviledge(?) of sitting where I could see the doors. The amount of overt distaste on the faces of the old ladies coming in seeing the buffet surrounded by this group was astounding. A couple of them quickly talked amongst themselves, shooting daggers with their eyes at the men, and quickly left the establishment.

It made me sad. Perhaps it's good that Coffeyville is going out of my life soon.

[Harry]

I've been accused of being a racist so often it's become past ridiculous, especially considering that there isn't a racist bone in me. It's always, oddly enough, starts with a person who's on the defensive and has a hang-up about me being white.

I still remember the first time such a thing happened. I was a shift manager at a large store back when I was eighteen, a music store but one with about 40 employees, and we head quarterly staff meetings where everyone sat and listened to us yap about new stuff, then we opened up the floor for them to air their beefs.

This guy stood up tall, and spoke loudly while pointing his finger at me, accusing me of mistreating him because he was black. The main issue being that I made him clean the bathrooms. Next thing I know, I'm in the office with the district manager trying to explain to him that yeah, I made the guy clean the bathrooms. Every other Tuesday night. The other 13 nights of the two week period, I made someone else clean them. Namely, whoever was scheduled to clean them that night. We rotated it equally between all employees. INCLUDING managers. Yep. Every other Wednesday was my night to clean them.

I also get accused of being racist whenever someone tries to pass a bad check. If they are white, middle-class, I have a problem with the white middle-class. Or when I arrest someone. Today, I found out that apparently I hate Jews. Or, if I run off a black man for panhandling, it's always because they're black. Of course.

[Hastur T. Fannon]

I'm still not clear on what "negative theology" means.

:D

That's kind of like not being clear on what Zen is. In fact, I'd suggest that it's almost identical

[Stratego]

Even if GPAC technical director Matthew Strampe and part-time stagehands Michael Laraway and William Martin didn't fully grasp the racist connotations of the nooses, Lawton said, "absence of knowledge is not a defense. It is wrong."

What? Isn't their intent the only thing that would make this "wrong?" Or is the simple act of tying a knot criminal?

[cnath.rm]

What? Isn't their intent the only thing that would make this "wrong?" Or is the simple act of tying a knot criminal?I really hope that it's the intent that makes it wrong, because I've tied them more then once when I was bored,** and even (unlike the pictured knots) tied them with 12-13 turns which I think was how they were supposed to be tied for hanging people. (the official way at least, I don't know if in lynching people it's done differently or not)

**not to be misconstrued as a threat to my own life or those of others, much less as flirting.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

:D

That's kind of like not being clear on what Zen is. In fact, I'd suggest that it's almost identical

Except that Zen is a trick to fool you into noticing that the self is an illusion. It's deliberately deceptive and intellectually dishonest (in a good cause).

[Hastur T. Fannon]

Except that Zen is a trick to fool you into noticing that the self is an illusion. It's deliberately deceptive and intellectually dishonest (in a good cause).

That's an interesting interpretation

And in a vain attempt to keep this thread on topic, as cnath.rm has pointed out those weren't nooses. The knot has 13 turns to make the knot big enough to break a neck

[Atticus_of_Amber]

That's an interesting interpretation

And in a vain attempt to keep this thread on topic, as cnath.rm has pointed out those weren't nooses. The knot has 13 turns to make the knot big enough to break a neck

"Trick" was meant in a morally neutral way. Perhaps "tool" is better.

But trickery is hardly unusual in Buddhism. Several buddhist scholars (including, I think, on one occasion, the Dalai Lama) have either said or hinted that the metaphysical claims of Buddhism are really just PR, designed to trick the seeker into adopting a practice that is profoundly beneficial to well being. I've forgotten who it was, but I once read someone describe Buddhism as classical stoicism dressed up in mystical clothes and wedded to some incredibly powerful meditation techniques (which tend to reinforce the stoicism). That always seemed about right to me.

[Freedom Canadian]

Buddhism is incredible. If I was to subscribe to some mumbo-jumbo, it would definitely be the one I'd choose.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Buddhism is incredible. If I was to subscribe to some mumbo-jumbo, it would definitely be the one I'd choose.

Ditto.

But people like Sam Harris would argue that you can get the benefits of Buddhism, without having to buy any of the mumbo-jumbo.