where did all these crazy people come from?

[tleilaxu]

the behavior i've been seeing at these town halls is really shameful and embarassing.

and these are middle aged people, not young punks. what is going on?

[Varaj]

the behavior i've been seeing at these town halls is really shameful and embarassing.

and these are middle aged people, not young punks. what is going on?

They have always been there, through out the ages.

[tleilaxu]

They have always been there, through out the ages.

i don't remember huge mobs of people acting like assholes a year ago. since when was it acceptable to go to a town hall meeting just to disrupt it?

[Varaj]

i don't remember huge mobs of people acting like assholes a year ago. since when was it acceptable to go to a town hall meeting just to disrupt it?

Don't taz me bro!

[Varaj]

A few examples from 2008. Lots from any given year
http://vcnv.org/march-19-2008-seven-memphians-arrested-in-senator-corkers-offices

http://butnerblogspot.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/disabled-group-members-arrested-at-mccains-office/

http://www.indypendent.org/2008/10/16/at-least-nine-demonstrators-arrested-as-iraq-vets-try-to-enter-final-presidential-debate/

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/90700/

[tleilaxu]

Don't taz me bro!

i take your comment to indicate you don't think that these incidences have increased in frequency? pass the pipe bro.

and they're middle aged people. it's weird.

[Utrecht]

A few examples from 2008. Lots from any given year
http://vcnv.org/march-19-2008-seven-memphians-arrested-in-senator-corkers-offices

http://butnerblogspot.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/disabled-group-members-arrested-at-mccains-office/

http://www.indypendent.org/2008/10/16/at-least-nine-demonstrators-arrested-as-iraq-vets-try-to-enter-final-presidential-debate/

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/90700/

This kind of crazyness goes all the way back to Athenian Democracy - so nothing new.

[Name Lips]

I hear that this has always been a weakness, a vulnerability, of the town hall style format. It's very easy for a relatively small group to take over and ruin the meeting, and give a disproportionate impression of their member's numbers and influence.

[Freedom Canadian]

This kind of crazyness goes all the way back to Athenian Democracy - so nothing new.

It's still shameful. :)

[Enk]

Any time you get a bunch of people together with differing viewpoints in a venue designed to highlight those differences you're going to get a few asshats. I think the best way to deal with them is to be very upfront about not allowing the behavior, and removing anyone who's not actually a local.

[The Winslow]

and these are middle aged people, not young punks.
Once a young punk, ever a young punk. Quand on est con, on est con, as the poet sang.

[AZRogue]

Once a young punk, ever a young punk. Quand on est con, on est con, as the poet sang.

Pretty much.

Plus, it's not very surprising to see the middle-aged and elderly acting "passionately" when it comes to fighting for their cause. Have you ever been to a union organized protest? I caved in, while with the UAW, and let my rep talk me into going to a few. They weren't townhall meetings, though, and consisted of mostly holding signs, but the anger was just as real for many.

The people who believe the "spin" that these protesters are all organized goons working for the Republicans, and so can be ignored, are choosing to lie to themselves. It's an over exaggeration and lazy. The truth is, while there are active organizers for some of these things, most of it is due to email campaigning (notifying of events and asking for support and attendance at an event) colliding with misinformation and angry people. Some of them not even angry over the bill or proposals, but just angry that they're not sure what they mean and don't believe their Congressman does, either.

Congress not reading bills before voting on them--I forget which guy made the remark that made it into a full-fledged issue--was an easy spark to piss off a lot of people who don't really understand what's actually going on with healthcare reform but who expect their elected officials to. That's their job, to many Americans, and not even reading the bills they're voting for because they don't have the time or the skill is not going to ever go over well. Especially when it's used by people who seem, to the public, always on vacation.

Hell, even on C-Span that damn hall is mostly always empty, just a few dozen social misfits yielding each other the balance of their time over and over again. I think my Congressman goes out golfing when I try to find him on C-Span, because he's never there but he keeps emailing me that he's "kicking ass" in Washington.

As for organizing, when have politics and political events not been organized? When they're not tweeting voters and driving them to the polls on election day, they're bussing in people to help protest particular townhall meetings. Shit, I always get emails, from both big parties, telling me about this or that crucial event that they need me to attend, to lend my support, voice my opposition, a few bucks, the new Blu-Ray I bought, whatever. It doesn't matter and doesn't make a person's opinion any less sincere just because he was asked to go and actually went. And, while it doesn't mean that the majority of Americans agree with them, it also doesn't mean they're some fringe group, either. These people are not paid actors, so marginalizing them because they were asked to go in an email, or by a community organizer, or driven over by Hannity and Obama in the carpool lane, is just a lazy dismissal/dodge from Washington. An especially weak one as the President is organizing his own people to also attend. An opposition opposition.

All it really means is that there are some pissed off people out there, angry at what they believe is being proposed by their legislatures, and they are passionate about it enough to take the time to go. It's pretty damned difficult to get people off their ass and take time out of their day to go protest anything, even when they would like to. It's the passionate that more often than not drag their asses up off the couch and attend a rally they were asked to join, and that passion is commonly anger. That's useful for political rallies and protests, but it doesn't mean anything on its own, without a lot more data from others who may or may not disagree but who didn't care enough to find a way to go.







Basically, that's my long way of saying that there is real anger and fear out there, it's not manufactured. Just because it's sometimes organized doesn't invalidate their position; if it did, community organizers, Obama included, would have been shit out of luck a long time ago. You can't deduce much from the protests other then that there are some really pissed off people--badly in need of some courtesy and mutual respect classes--in those YouTube clips we've been seeing lately. No more, and definitely no less.

Since it usually takes passion to make people get off their ass, the vocal protests shouldn't be a surprise and aren't proof that America agrees with them, though the number of people protesting is impressive. When you're angry, it's easier to get shit moving because you're motivated, and when you shout, it's easier to be noticed because you are loud.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dib2-HBsF08

[Name Lips]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32364701/ns/politics-white_house/


Obama ready for ‘vigorous’ town hall debate
President retools message before attending N.H. health overhaul meeting

GUADALAJARA, Mexico - A day before facing a potentially boisterous town hall in New Hampshire, President Barack Obama praised the spirited debate over his health care plans on Monday and predicted "sensible and reasoned arguments" would ultimately prevail in Congress.

Obama plans to pivot his message somewhat on Tuesday, addressing people who already have insurance through their employers and highlighting how his proposals would affect them. The White House is retooling its message amid polling that shows Americans — especially those who have coverage — are skeptical of Democratic proposals to expand to cover many of the 50 million or more uninsured.

On Monday, in his first North American summit, Obama met with the leaders of Mexico and Canada, covering such shared hot topics as trade barriers, drug violence and the expected resurgence of swine flu. But questions about domestic policy — Obama's drive for overhauls to U.S. health care and immigration policy — followed him to Mexico and stole the biggest share of the hour the three leaders appeared together before reporters.

Feeling the heat?
Concerns over Obama's health care reform proposal are heating up town hall meetings, chat rooms and radio shows in the U.S. — driving his poll numbers down and threatening the future of his highest domestic priority. While Congress is in recess for the month of August, lawmakers are hearing from constituents worried about divisive issues such as the government's role in health care and the costs of an overhaul.

Republicans say the heated debate is a sign of widespread public dissatisfaction with Obama's ideas. But with some of the anxieties spilling into angry disruptions and even threats, Democrats have accused Republicans of orchestrating the events to sabotage legislation. In an article published Monday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer wrote: "Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American."

Obama stayed away from such provocative language.

"We are having a vigorous debate in the United States, and I think that's a healthy thing," he said, repeating that thought three times. But, he said, the dynamic will change once the recess ends and the lawmakers — and the debate — return to Washington.

"I suspect that once we get into the fall and people look at the actual legislation that's being proposed, that more sensible and reasoned arguments will emerge. And we're going to get this passed," he said.

Obama will face a town hall audience Tuesday in Portsmouth, N.H.

Emotions could flare
Foes of his plans have disrupted events with members of Congress, and the White House is bracing for such incidents on Tuesday, though Obama's town hall audiences have tended to be orderly and supportive. White House spokesman Bill Burton told reporters traveling back to the United States with Obama aboard Air Force One that there is plenty of emotion from both sides on the issue.

"Well, I think there's actually a pretty long tradition of people shouting at politicians in America," Burton said. "The president thinks that if people want to come and have a spirited debate about health care, a real vigorous conversation about it, that's a part of the American tradition."

Separately, the White House turned to the Internet on Monday to challenge what the administration contends are misconceptions about Democratic plans.

The government Web site takes on claims made by critics that the changes would result in rationing of health care, encourage euthanasia or endanger Medicare.

"Given a lot of the outrageous claims floating around, it's time to make sure everyone knows the facts about the security and stability you get with health insurance reform," said White House senior adviser David Axelrod.

Whether or not it works, I have to say I love Obama's style. :) Being upset and outraged over town hall meetings being taken over by a vocal, loud minority is bound to upset and rattle some people. Most Democrats are in this category - ranging from annoyed to outraged. But Obama "praises the vigorous debate." :D

[Utrecht]

Whether or not it works, I have to say I love Obama's style. :) Being upset and outraged over town hall meetings being taken over by a vocal, loud minority is bound to upset and rattle some people. Most Democrats are in this category - ranging from annoyed to outraged. But Obama "praises the vigorous debate." :D

I agree, the easist way to get a bunch of unhappy people even more pissed off is to ignore them or dismiss them as kooks - or pull a Godwin and call them Nazi's ala Pelosi.

Obama's approach of acknowledgeing them is good - the next step that he needs to do IMO to say something along the lines of taking what they have to say and making sure it is addressed in the legislation - do that and you mute their effectiveness.

[Radu]

In other words, cave in to massive outbursts of extremely childish, irrational behavior and "let them win." (Note: Slight exaggeration at work in that sentence.)

I think it's good to acknowledge the concern people have but just because someone is upset doesn't mean their gripe is legitimate. Lots of town halls were disrupted by the Birther crowd. Does that mean we should incorporate their views into legislation? (too late--- congress has already passed a resolution more or less doing so in reverse by officially certifying the President's birth.) Just because a lot of people are upset is no reason to assume that they are in any way actively part of, informed about, or contributing to the debate.

Until I see evidence of these Town Hallers actually knowing what the fuck they're talking about, I'm going to ignore them in the same way I ignore Kennedy assassination conspiracy theorists, Moon landing deniers, and Creationists.

[Janos]

and they're middle aged people. it's weird.

Ever read about the Mob in Rome or Byzantium? It would go wild and riot for virtually no reason at all. Middle-aged merchants would riot right along side young punks. Human nature hasn't changed that much in 1000 years.

[Utrecht]

In other words, cave in to massive outbursts of extremely childish, irrational behavior and "let them win." (Note: Slight exaggeration at work in that sentence.).


Not what I am saying. For example - if there are several things that they could do to mute 90% of the umbrige

1) Specifically call out that abortions are not covered in the legislation (unless that is indeed the plan - and if so, be prepared for alot of whining)
2) In the legislation - clear up the language around "death councilling" stating that seniors will not be denied remove any coverage compared to XYZ baseline private plan.

Because the legislation is not complete and in some cases conflicting, it makes easy it easy for opponents to make claims like those above and scare the shit out of people.

This is not at all caving - but taking away the talking points.

[tleilaxu]

This is not at all caving - but taking away the talking points.

or you could say "fuck these people, they're not reasonable" and then proceed to write them off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT0OqHr3wHQ

[Utrecht]

or you could say "fuck these people, they're not reasonable" and then proceed to write them off.


You certainly could, but the Obama administration needs to make a choice - do they want to raise above the petty politics of Washington and become the post-partisan politician he claimed he was or take the gloves off and push for health care (which is something else he wanted). All about choices

and as the republicans know - choices have consequences.

[Utrecht]

Until I see evidence of these Town Hallers actually knowing what the fuck they're talking about, I'm going to ignore them in the same way I ignore Kennedy assassination conspiracy theorists, Moon landing deniers, and Creationists.


Radu,

I am curious about this statment - what points that the Town Hallers are raising fall into the "don't know what the fuck they are talking about" bucket.

[tleilaxu]

and as the republicans know - choices have consequences.

there is no reason to be afraid of the 20% george w. bush dead-ender wingnuts. nor is there reason to take them seriously, to try to reason with them, or treat them as anything but objects of scorn.

[Utrecht]

there is no reason to be afraid of the 20% george w. bush dead-ender wingnuts. nor is there reason to take them seriously, to try to reason with them, or treat them as anything but objects of scorn.

My comment was more along the lines that the Republicans dismissed the concerns of the American citizenry and found them selves on the out-side looking in - and if you think the protesters exclusively represent that 20% then you well on the way to repeating their mistakes.

There are numerous liberal (Ed Koch for example) bloggers/commentators that have acknowledged that the Town Haller message has some merit (all be it taken to the illogical extreme) and most especially touching senior's benefits needs to be done VERY carefully - because they are quick to anger.

[tleilaxu]

My comment was more along the lines that the Republicans dismissed the concerns of the American citizenry and found them selves on the out-side looking in - and if you think the protesters exclusively represent that 20% then you well on the way to repeating their mistakes.

There are numerous liberal (Ed Koch for example) bloggers/commentators that have acknowledged that the Town Haller message has some merit (all be it taken to the illogical extreme) and most especially touching senior's benefits needs to be done VERY carefully - because they are quick to anger.

there are certainly reasonable objections and concerns to be had about health care reform. but you can only have that conversation with someone capable and willing to take part in a rational debate.

for one, i'd certainly like to see more projected cost-savings from the plans.

but that's not what these people are engaging in.

personal anecdote:
i personally have taken part in protests. i am most proud of taking part in the two million person march against the implimentation of fascist security laws in Hong Kong back at the beginning of the decade.
but you demonstrate the righteousness of your cause through superior behavior. you don't 'fuck shit up'. and when you leave, you feel nice that you and all these other peaceful people believe in the same thing, not with a red face and anger in your gut.
and as a side note, i need to spend less time in this forum and more in the stuff about music, etc, as thins shit never fails to grumpify me a bit.

[Enk]

there are certainly reasonable objections and concerns to be had about health care reform. but you can only have that conversation with someone capable and willing to take part in a rational debate.

By some definitions of "capable" (such as at least making an attempt to look at the source material of the debate), you've just ruled out a significant portion of congress.

[Name Lips]

It seems to me that their main "end goal" is to prove Obama doesn't care by forcing him to ignore them. That way they'll have political ammunition later on that Obama doesn't listen to the people.

If I were Obama, I'd not allow anybody to leave that town hall meeting, himself included, until they'd accomplished a reasonable debate. I wouldn't care if it took weeks. But after a few hours of yelling and getting their faces red, when faced with somebody who's completely unruffled, they're bound to run out of breath.

[Dacke]

Radu,

I am curious about this statment - what points that the Town Hallers are raising fall into the "don't know what the fuck they are talking about" bucket.
Death panels?

[AZRogue]

I think everyone knows that the townhall yellers are basically the same as those pink chicks I used to see being dragged out of Repub press conferences. They're there to make an impact, but not through debate. They come from all over, every political ideology, and they might seem laughable, but they can have an effect on politicians and they know it, especially if they rattle them by impressing them with numbers.

But it doesn't matter. Those people should be escorted out of townhall meetings for being disruptive. Not for being loud or misinformed, but when they demonstrate that they're attending to protest, not participate. Participation on a subject that you feel strongly about is going to get heated, no big deal. Shouting so the other guy can't talk, that's protesting.

Protesters are also fine, but outside. If they enter the townhall they should have a bit of courtesy and be willing to participate, not disrupt. Of course, some might still do it, but that's fine too. Civil disobedience is an important tool and has an honest place in society.

[Name Lips]

aaand, nothing happened at his town hall meeting.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32372611/ns/politics-white_house/


PORTSMOUTH, N.H. - Braced for a fight he never got, President Barack Obama went on the offensive in support of his health care plan Tuesday, urging a town hall audience not to listen to those who seek to "scare and mislead the American people."

"For all the scare tactics out there, what is truly scary is if we do nothing," Obama told a friendly crowd of about 1,800 in a high school auditorium and a nationwide audience watching on cable television.

The White House had been ready for an unruly reception from opponents of overhauling health care. There was no sign of that, perhaps because of the makeup of the day's crowd or out of traditional deference for the president.
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

Obama's push came amid a string of disruptive health care town halls nationwide that have overshadowed his message and threatened to derail support in Congress. Indeed, Republican-turned-Democratic Sen. Arlen Specter faced hostile questions, taunts and jeers earlier Tuesday as he tried to explain his positions at a town hall in Lebanon, Pa. Voter fears of a government takeover of health care were on stark display.

Some lawmakers, holding forums during Congress' August recess, have gone so far as to replace public forums with teleconferences or step up security to keep protesters at bay.

But the Democratic president faced no outbursts.

The encounter was so friendly, in fact, that by the end Obama was even asking for skeptical questioners to come forward — to no avail.

[Harry]

My father made the point today, and he's of the far right, that at our Representative's "town hall" meeting the audience was about 4/5ths or better white, and loud far-right white. In a neighborhood that is entirely black where a white face is notable. And of the voices heard at the meeting, the neighborhood never got a say despite the meeting being for their benefit.

[Scarbonac]

aaand, nothing happened at his town hall meeting.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32372611/ns/politics-white_house/

Aside from the kook carrying a loaded gun and a sign saying "It's time to water the Tree of Liberty"...?

[tleilaxu]

Orly Taitz — not just a birther!

Esquire's John Richardson tagged along with birther leader Orly Taitz and some of her followers in Kentucky — quite the spectacle:

We set off in a flotilla of cars. When we got to the state office complex an hour later, it took less than ten minutes for us to get badges and pass through security. A man named George Wilding, the manager of Kentucky's Public Corruption Unit, led us to a conference room. A few minutes later, we were joined by Bob Foster, Kentucky's Commissioner of Criminal Investigations.

Then Taitz began to talk, and she did not stop for 15 solid minutes: Obama forged this and his campaign forged that and these are his false addresses and here's something very strange that Justice Scalia told her at a book signing and here are the 500,000 signatures collected by WorldNetDaily magazine demanding an investigation ...

Finally Wilding held up a hand. "Let me just stop you right there. What applies to Kentucky?"

One of the citizens starts showing him documents. "This is clearly his school record that shows that he was a citizen of Indonesia ..."

"I don't understand what that has to do with the Kentucky attorney general's office," Wilding repeated.

"He was on the ballot here in Kentucky," Taitz said.

"That was a federal election. There are federal-election laws. The FBI investigates those. So I believe that your best venue and jurisdiction lies with the U.S. district court and the FBI."

That's when Taitz lost it. "I can see that you are hell-bent on doing absolutely nothing," she said, eyes flaring. "You want to pass the buck."

"No ma'am. I'm trying to follow the law."

"I'm going to the FBI and not only reporting Obama, I'm going to report you for refusing to investigate crimes. You have a duty to investigate those crimes! Why are people paying salary for this whole office of attorney general of Kentucky? To do nothing?"

"I think we're finished," Foster said.

But Taitz wasn't finished. She marched her troops straight over to the secretary of state's office and did the exact same presentation all over again. Then she headed to the FBI to do it a third time. And the whole time, she never stopped talking:

Goldman Sachs runs the treasury.

Obama is a puppet.

There's a cemetery somewhere in Arizona where they just dug 30,000 fresh graves, which wait now for the revolution.

Baxter International — a major Obama contributor — developed a vaccine for bird flu that actually kills people.

Google Congressman Alcee Hastings and House Bill 684 and you'll see that they're planning at least six civilian labor camps.

Google an article in the San Francisco Chronicle about train cars with shackles.

The communist dictator Hugo Chavez way back in 2004 purchased the Sequoia software that runs our voting machines and the mainstream media won't report any of it — not even Fox because Saudi Arabia bought a percentage of Fox in 2007.

This is the stuff that the media never gives Taitz a chance to say because it's so focused on the news hook of the "birther" issue. (And, believe me, this has been merely a tiny sample of what I saw on my road trip this spring.)

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0809/Orly_Taitz__not_just_a_birther.html?showall

[Name Lips]

Goldman Sachs runs the treasury.
My brother in law will go ON and ON about this.

But he takes it one step further - not only does Goldman Sachs run the Fed (and thus the Treasury, and thus control the entire US economy), but Goldman Sachs is owned by none other than the Queen of England herself. That's right, we're still a BRITISH COLONY and the Revolution was just a smokescreen for a more subtle transfer of power. We have been, and always will be, under BRITISH RULE until we overthrow the Fed and put our own GOVERNMENT in charge if it's OWN ECONOMY.

I don't talk to my brother-in-law much.

[Hatter]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0809/Orly_Taitz__not_just_a_birther.html?showall

Every time she makes the news I think this:

[Enk]

My father made the point today, and he's of the far right, that at our Representative's "town hall" meeting the audience was about 4/5ths or better white, and loud far-right white. In a neighborhood that is entirely black where a white face is notable. And of the voices heard at the meeting, the neighborhood never got a say despite the meeting being for their benefit.

If there was a way to ensure that only people actually from the twon could attend town hall meetings, without stomping all over the Constitution, I'd be for it.

[Dacke]

Ever since I heard about Orly Taitz (which was what, like two weeks ago?), I figured she had to be some kind of performance artist. I mean, start with a name that sounds like the O RLY owl grew tits, follow up with that outrageous accent, and to finish it off her profession is apparently dentist/lawyer/real estate broker. I mean, seriously?

[Utrecht]

Ever since I heard about Orly Taitz (which was what, like two weeks ago?), I figured she had to be some kind of performance artist. I mean, start with a name that sounds like the O RLY owl grew tits, follow up with that outrageous accent, and to finish it off her profession is apparently dentist/lawyer/real estate broker. I mean, seriously?

On a serious note - Orly is a very common Israeli name

[Dacke]

On a serious note - Orly is a very common Israeli name
You do know that there's only one thing I can say to that, don't you?

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/BalooSJ/orly_owl.jpg

[The Winslow]

It's also a one of the Paris suburbs, famous for its airport.

[tleilaxu]

and to finish it off her profession is apparently dentist/lawyer/estate broker. I mean, seriously?

she's obviously suffering from the curse of multi-classing.

[Freedom Canadian]

Orly is also the name of a restaurant in Montreal.

One day, I will go there with a sign showing the O RLY bird and every time the waitress says something affirmative, I'll whip it out.

[bunny]

...every time the waitress says something affirmative, I'll whip it out.

Aren't you afraid of being charged with indecent exposure?