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Name Lips
06-06-2009, 02:35 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31128684/


Boys with ‘warrior gene’ likely to join gangs
Aggressive trait also linked to violence, weapon use, new study finds

Boys who have a so-called "warrior gene" are more likely to join gangs and also more likely to be among the most violent members and to use weapons, a new study finds.

"While gangs typically have been regarded as a sociological phenomenon, our investigation shows that variants of a specific MAOA gene, known as a 'low-activity 3-repeat allele,' play a significant role," said biosocial criminologist Kevin M. Beaver of Florida State University.

In 2006, the controversial warrior gene was implicated in the violence of the indigenous Maori people in New Zealand, a claim that Maori leaders dismissed.
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But it's no surprise that genes would be involved in aggression. Aggression is a primal emotion like many others, experts say, and like cooperation, it is part of human nature, something that's passed down genetically. And almost all mammals are aggressive in some way or another, said Craig Kennedy, professor of special education and pediatrics at Vanderbilt University in Tennessee, whose research last year suggested that humans crave violence just like they do sex, food or drugs.

"Previous research has linked low-activity MAOA variants to a wide range of antisocial, even violent, behavior, but our study confirms that these variants can predict gang membership," says Beaver, the Florida State researcher. "Moreover, we found that variants of this gene could distinguish gang members who were markedly more likely to behave violently and use weapons from members who were less likely to do either."

Violent traits are hereditary
The MAOA gene affects levels of neurotransmitters such as dopamine and serotonin that are related to mood and behavior, and those variants that are related to violence are hereditary, according to a statement from the university.

The new study examined DNA data and lifestyle information drawn from more than 2,500 respondents to the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health. Beaver and colleagues from Florida State, Iowa State and Saint Louis universities will detail their findings in a forthcoming issue of the journal Comprehensive Psychiatry.

A separate study at Brown University from earlier this year found that individuals with the warrior gene display higher levels of aggression in response to provocation.

Over networked computers, 78 test subjects were asked to cause physical pain to an opponent they believed had taken money from them by administering varying amounts of hot sauce. While the results were not dramatic, low-activity MAOA subjects displayed slightly higher levels of aggression overall, the researchers said.

The Brown University results, published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, support previous research suggesting that MAOA influences aggressive behavior, the scientists said.

So... we're having a sort of ongoing discussion here about free will, fate, and so on.

To what extent do you believe people's supposedly "free will" is influenced by factors completely out of their control - such as by their biology as suggested here. To what extent is our ability to make good, rational decisions superseded by our inherent tendency to seek out and enjoy particular stimuli?

Would training ourselves to behave in ways other than those encouraged by our genes be a good idea? Perhaps it would lead to confusion and internal conflicts and psychiatric conditions because they're denying their true selves - much like we tend to consider gay people who force themselves to live straight lives because they think it's "right."

Discuss.

PWD
06-06-2009, 02:43 PM
Genes are a toolset. What you choose to do with them is up to you.

Name Lips
06-06-2009, 02:50 PM
Genes are a toolset. What you choose to do with them is up to you.

Do you think there are potential negative consequences for behaving in ways contrary to your genetic inclination? Is that part of the "up to you" -- choosing to accept those negative consequences?

A gay person who chooses to live straight might never feel like he's accepted himself, and might never truly enjoy his life. But it was, after all, "up to him" to live like that.

Perhaps there are similar life-quality consequences for denying an aggressive nature. Or to forcing yourself to stay sober when you're inclined to drink.

Varaj
06-06-2009, 03:02 PM
Hugely complex question.
For the vast majority I go with PWD. Negative consequences are going to vary from none to huge depending on many, many factors.

As you move to the extremes you start getting negative consequences for going against genetic/structural demands that are more extreme as well.

You will also move into the area where "free will" is completely stripped and the person in question has no ability to make choices.

PWD
06-06-2009, 04:32 PM
Do you think there are potential negative consequences for behaving in ways contrary to your genetic inclination? Is that part of the "up to you" -- choosing to accept those negative consequences?

A gay person who chooses to live straight might never feel like he's accepted himself, and might never truly enjoy his life. But it was, after all, "up to him" to live like that.

Perhaps there are similar life-quality consequences for denying an aggressive nature. Or to forcing yourself to stay sober when you're inclined to drink.

So? What does any of that heartstring-yanking clap-trap have to do with whether the choice is yours?

Predestination requires lack of choice, not difficulty of choice.

PWD
06-06-2009, 04:38 PM
Note that I'm not saying that say being gay is a choice. I do believe that one's tastes are built into the genetics.

That's a whole other animal from whether one has the choice to live a gay lifestyle and indulge those tastes.

Similarly, I can totally buy that certain people have proclivities determined by genetics... toward violence, toward pedophilia, etc etc (apologies for having these anywhere near the homosexuality point above). Having those desires is different from being unable to choose whether or not to act upon them.

That's why I reject this having any impact upon or relevance to the discussion of fate vs. free will.

Varaj
06-06-2009, 05:00 PM
Note that I'm not saying that say being gay is a choice. I do believe that one's tastes are built into the genetics.

That's a whole other animal from whether one has the choice to live a gay lifestyle and indulge those tastes.

Similarly, I can totally buy that certain people have proclivities determined by genetics... toward violence, toward pedophilia, etc etc (apologies for having these anywhere near the homosexuality point above). Having those desires is different from being unable to choose whether or not to act upon them.

That's why I reject this having any impact upon or relevance to the discussion of fate vs. free will.

I agree with the caveat at some point it moves from desire to compulsion to a step past compulsion where anything resembling free choice is removed.

TiQuinn
06-06-2009, 05:28 PM
So? What does any of that heartstring-yanking clap-trap have to do with whether the choice is yours?

Predestination requires lack of choice, not difficulty of choice.

There's a breaking point where the difficulty of making the choice multiplied by the number of times one has to make that choice probably outweighs one's ability to resist.

PWD
06-06-2009, 05:47 PM
There's a breaking point where the difficulty of making the choice multiplied by the number of times one has to make that choice probably outweighs one's ability to resist.

Protest of the weak. :)

If I can get out of bed every morning after 37 years when I really truly don't want to, they can resist fucking a child in the ass. Or throwing a bottle in a bar to start a fight.

Name Lips
06-06-2009, 06:42 PM
Protest of the weak. :)

If I can get out of bed every morning after 37 years when I really truly don't want to, they can resist fucking a child in the ass. Or throwing a bottle in a bar to start a fight.

You never slept in...




...even once?

PWD
06-06-2009, 06:45 PM
You never slept in...




...even once?

The point remains. Giving into your impulses is a choice. Even when it's a really difficult choice.

Varaj
06-06-2009, 07:05 PM
The point remains. Giving into your impulses is a choice. Even when it's a really difficult choice.

It is only a choice if the brain is working properly. Literally thousands of case studies and research studies say you are 100% wrong.

TiQuinn
06-06-2009, 07:11 PM
Protest of the weak. :)

If I can get out of bed every morning after 37 years when I really truly don't want to, they can resist fucking a child in the ass. Or throwing a bottle in a bar to start a fight.

Choose something more equivalent.

I notice you don't say anything about your genetic proclivity for moose-fucking! The unheard tragedy of the Canadian mooses!

PWD
06-06-2009, 10:23 PM
It is only a choice if the brain is working properly. Literally thousands of case studies and research studies say you are 100% wrong.

So fate isn't even worth discussing until disfunctioning brains are involved. I can deal with that.

PWD
06-06-2009, 10:26 PM
Choose something more equivalent.

I notice you don't say anything about your genetic proclivity for moose-fucking! The unheard tragedy of the Canadian mooses!

It's not our fault that our moose are hotter than your wife. Lord knows she's up here often enough trying to give herself away, but not even the eskimo will have a go.

Varaj
06-06-2009, 10:38 PM
So fate isn't even worth discussing until disfunctioning brains are involved. I can deal with that.

Still isn't fate. :tongue:

PWD
06-06-2009, 11:13 PM
Still isn't fate. :tongue:

I think we're agreeing violently. When do we have the make-up sex?

Schizm
06-06-2009, 11:25 PM
I think we're agreeing violently. When do we have the make-up sex?

When the cameras are set up. Duh.

PWD
06-07-2009, 09:03 AM
When the cameras are set up. Duh.

See, now the viagra's gone and worn off.

Squash Cop
06-07-2009, 03:02 PM
You've all missed the obvious reason for these results; the guy's name is Beaver and he got teased a lot in school.