Can we swap leaders? (Obama science speech)

[there_is_no_bob]

Really, I'm willing to trade. (http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=65)

You guys get that sort of attitude, and we're stuck with a goddamn chiro in a science and tech position? Man, its a good thing Texas science standards still suck.

[Ancalagon]

2000 Canadian scientists signed an open letter to our prime minister expressing concerns...

http://dontleavecanadabehind.wordpress.com/open-letter-to-the-prime-minister-and-leader-of-the-opposition/

[Varaj]

I must admit I got a little teary eyed.

[Cat of Ulthar]

What's wrong with Bella and Brynja? :what: Huh?

[there_is_no_bob]

What's wrong with Bella and Brynja? :what: Huh?

Then I could call Harper a cockmunch, and the people in charge of my country would suck less. Duh!

Why, do think Bella and Brynja can't run a country? Huh? Huh? Think they're not good enough or something?:mad:

[Radu]

No, you can't have Chocolate Jesus. We claimed him, fair and square! (And for fuck's sake, it was about time! 8 years since we had a President who valued things like evidence, logic, reason, science... you know, shit I care about.)

[SpikeyFreak]

Man, its a good thing Texas science standards still suck.
I've been writing the school board trying to do my part.

--Trying Spikey

[there_is_no_bob]

No, you can't have Chocolate Jesus. We claimed him, fair and square! But I wants him (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/dining/20garden.html)!

Stupid Harper. grumble.

[Snatch]

Great speech.

[Ergeheilalt]

I've been writing the school board trying to do my part.

--Trying Spikey

Me too! I write letters on behalf of my mother and brothers (both of whom are going to school in Texas) and then just have her sign them.

It's bad. I know.

[Snatch]

I've been writing the school board trying to do my part.

--Trying Spikey

Me too! I write letters on behalf of my mother and brothers (both of whom are going to school in Texas) and then just have her sign them.

It's bad. I know.

What is the issue specifically? I'm not familiar with it.

[Ergeheilalt]

What is the issue specifically? I'm not familiar with it.

Equal time for Creationism in biology classes. Stressing that Evolution is merely a theory.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/28/texas-wrapup-yup-doomed/

It's really not fair to call it just a Texas issue, because Texas has SO many students, that textbook manufacturers will write for Texas standards. That leaves all the other states to struggle to find a text book that doesn't teach philosophy that flies in the face of the subject they're trying to teach.

[there_is_no_bob]

Equal time for Creationism in biology classes. Stressing that Evolution is merely a theory. And all sorts of other anti-science measures.


It's really not fair to call it just a Texas issue, because Texas has SO many students, that textbook manufacturers will write for Texas standards. That leaves all the other states to struggle to find a text book that doesn't teach philosophy that flies in the face of the subject they're trying to teach.Plus, Texas certifies on a different schedule (long time intervals, IIRC) and so any book that doesn't get on the list can't sell to Texas at all. So all sorts of publishers try to get on the Texas list in order to be able to sell to the giant market, and other regions get shafted with versions of the Texas standards that also meet their standards.

[Ergeheilalt]

And all sorts of other anti-science measures.


Totally. You have to be licensed by the state in order to own an Erlenmeyer flask.

How is my brother supposed to grow up to be a mad scientist?

[Snatch]

Equal time for Creationism in biology classes. Stressing that Evolution is merely a theory.


Not that shit again.

[Snatch]

Totally. You have to be licensed by the state in order to own an Erlenmeyer flask.

How is my brother supposed to grow up to be a mad scientist?

What?! No - you're screwin' with me now.

[Trainz]

I image googled Erlenmeyer flask. It's a fucking glass bottle.

Come the fuck on.

[Varaj]

I image googled Erlenmeyer flask. It's a fucking glass bottle.

Come the fuck on.

No man, it is specially shaped glass bottle, a very dangerous shape.

Yes it is true.
http://www.crscientific.com/texas-glassware.html

The Texas site on it. It is fucking insane.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/criminal_law_enforcement/narcotics/narcprecursor.htm

[there_is_no_bob]

Not that shit again.
Still. Some people really, really don't want to acknowledge reality.

[Trainz]

No man, it is specially shaped glass bottle, a very dangerous shape.

Yes it is true.
http://www.crscientific.com/texas-glassware.html

The Texas site on it. It is fucking insane.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/criminal_law_enforcement/narcotics/narcprecursor.htm

BWAAAHAAAHAAAAAA!!!

And Texans take offense when people make fun of their state!

Texas' logo should be of a clown with a cream pie on his face.

[Varaj]

BWAAAHAAAHAAAAAA!!!

And Texans take offense when people make fun of their state!

Texas' logo should be of a clown with a cream pie on his face.

Should I mention it is illegal to sell sex toys in Texas and if you own 10 or more sex toys you are automatically considered a distributor.

[SpikeyFreak]

Should I mention it is illegal to sell sex toys in Texas and if you own 10 or more sex toys you are automatically considered a distributor.
But we are all 10 feet tall and breath fire.

--I *WILL* Kick All Your Asses Spikey

[Hatter]

But we are all 10 feet tall and breath fire.

--I *WILL* Kick All Your Asses Spikey

Don't mess with Texas.




It's not nice to pick on retards.

[SpikeyFreak]

Don't mess with Texas.




Tard strength is awesome.
--FIFY Spikey

[Scarbonac]

Texas: Dumber Than Advertised.

[Trainz]

But we are all 10 feet tall and breath fire.

--I *WILL* Kick All Your Asses Spikey

Come on now... just as not all christians are fanatic wackos, not all Texans are ludicrous Morons.

I don't know you in real life, so I shall withold judgment.

:tongue:

[SpikeyFreak]

Come on now... just as not all christians are fanatic wackos, not all Texans are ludicrous Morons.
The way I see it, all people are ludicrous morons. Or close enough makes no difference.

--Capt. Malcolm Spikey Reynolds

[there_is_no_bob]

Man, its a good thing Texas science standards still suck.:bawling:
Oh sweet jumping jesus on a pogo stick (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2009/04/30/cgy-bill-evolution-law-alberta-classes-teachers.html).

Alberta may end up being worse than Texas (http://www.statesman.com/news/content/region/legislature/stories/05/01/0501stateboard.html).
:worried:

[Snatch]

:bawling:
Oh sweet jumping jesus on a pogo stick (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2009/04/30/cgy-bill-evolution-law-alberta-classes-teachers.html).

Alberta may end up being worse than Texas (http://www.statesman.com/news/content/region/legislature/stories/05/01/0501stateboard.html).
:worried:

Well I ddin't see that coming. In fact, I wasn't aware of it being an issue here.

[tleilaxu]

:bawling:
Oh sweet jumping jesus on a pogo stick (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2009/04/30/cgy-bill-evolution-law-alberta-classes-teachers.html).


damn... since when did we become the reasonable ones? time to up your game canada! :)

[Snatch]

damn... since when did we become the reasonable ones? time to up your game canada! :)

Apparently since yesterday.

Although the bill is more generalized than what the article describes, the topic of evolution seems to be prominent for some reason. I would have thought discussion on gay-marriage/lifestyle would have been the articles focus.

[Radu]

This is from the Albuquerque Journal this morning:


Student Wins Creationism Suit

SANTA ANA, Calif.- A federal judge has ruled that a history teacher at a Southern California public high school violated the First Amendment when he called creationism "superstitious nonsense" during a classroom lecture.

U.S. District Judge James Selna issued the ruling Friday after a 16-month legal battle between student Chad Farnan and his former teacher, James Corbett.

Farnan's lawsuit alleged that Corbett made more than 20 statements that were disparaging to Christians and their beliefs.

The Judge found that Corbett's reference to creationism as "religious, superstitious nonsense" violated the First Amendment's establishment clause. Courts have interpreted the clause as prohibiting government employees from displaying religious hostility.

It doesn't matter what President Obama may say regarding science. We can't even teach the truth in our public school classrooms.

[Random Encounter]

This is from the Albuquerque Journal this morning:



It doesn't matter what President Obama may say regarding science. We can't even teach the truth in our public school classrooms.

Why was he discussing the issue in history class anyway? And the proper response is "That is the religious point of view not the scientific point of view." Without attacking the religion itself.

Christians have the same rights as everyone else to not have their beleifs attacked in the public school system.

[Name Lips]

Sounds like the issue was "expressing an opinion on a religious belief" which is a no-no.

[Varaj]

Sounds like the issue was "expressing an opinion on a religious belief" which is a no-no.

Yuppers, I have to agree with the courts ruling. The schools have no business putting weight upon religious belief systems.

If he had said that "creationism is a religious belief system not one based on science" then he would have been all good.

[there_is_no_bob]

Sounds like the issue was "expressing an opinion on a religious belief" which is a no-no.
The issue was a pansy being offended about being told the truth - something like 20 of 22 charges were found to be groundless. Haven't read any transcripts, though, so I don't know if it was completely out of the blue or if the kid brought up the issue.

[Harry]

I am curious as hell of what the context was for the teacher's remarks. Were they part of a lecture? Was he answering students' questions? Were the remarks used as an example? OR was the teacher getting on a soapbox and ranting?

[AZRogue]

I am curious as hell of what the context was for the teacher's remarks. Were they part of a lecture? Was he answering students' questions? Were the remarks used as an example? OR was the teacher getting on a soapbox and ranting?

It sounds like he was voicing his religious opinion during his lecture, and did it in a snide way when he should have said, as was mentioned above, simply that creationism is a religious belief, not science, instead of making a remark that, while probably heartfelt, he should not have made. He could have said his piece after school, if he feels strongly about it. Challenge the local Bishop or pastor to a debate or something.

It doesn't seem like a big deal, though, and certainly not something I would have wanted to take to court, but that's just me.



On a related issue, would it diffuse the issue to only teach actual science in our science classrooms and then offer an actual class on creationism, religion and its version of history, maybe even general theology to the point where people might learn the high points of other religions? Offer it as an elective for those students who's parents want their children to learn about creationism and various takes on the subject? It wouldn't be a bad subject, and I could see learning a bit about the "official" beliefs of religion, as well as religions from around the world, as a good thing. It would get people thinking, at least, and offer a choice to those families, who are also helping to fund their local school, that might satisfy them?

I don't know, just a thought. I wondered, reading the thread, what a workable compromise would be and that's the first thing that came to mind: making creationism and other religious beliefs, such as a 6,000 year old Earth, an elective that kids and their parents could choose based on their preference. Keep it out of our science classrooms while offering a nod to those who choose to belief something on faith rather than evidence.

Hell, I believe in creationism, too, though my own little niche of it. I don't believe in abiogenesis (I think that's what it's called) but believe, instead, that God "spun the top", so to speak, knowing where he wanted to go and starting the process and letting his top spin down to where we are now. So, I believe in Evolution, because it's only obvious, but don't find that it contradicts my faith in God creating the universe and life itself.

I've been told by pastors and preachers that I'm cheating, but I just had to find something that made sense to me and doesn't, in any way, take away from the power of God. *shrug*

[Radu]

I'm supportive of a similar idea, which I first heard voiced by Daniel Dennett. It's a bit of a variant on yours but close enough that I halfway agree with you:

Teach religion in school, just as we teach reading, writing, history, science, and mathematics. Educate children about the major world religions- ALL of them. Teach facts - FACTS ONLY - about all the creeds. What books do they hold sacred? What holidays do they celebrate? What are their major beliefs and the foundational myths they teach? What ethical codes do they follow, and why? Where did the religion originate? What is its history?

None of these things are anything to object to. Just as we learn facts about the Olympian mythos when studying classical Greece, we should learn facts about the major faiths of the world. I've never heard anyone objecting to phrases like, "London is the capitol of England" or "The Sahara Desert is the largest in the world." Why should we object to similar statements like, "In Judaism the Torah is believed to be a sacred book" or "Moslems are forbidden to eat or touch pork?"

I agree that religious opinion should stay out of the classroom--- that includes religious indignation. Facts, evidence, and reason should be the "sacred values" of public schools. After all, there is no such thing as "Christian physics," "Hindu biology," or "Scientologist algebra."

[Dacke]

Teach religion in school, just as we teach reading, writing, history, science, and mathematics. Educate children about the major world religions- ALL of them. Teach facts - FACTS ONLY - about all the creeds. What books do they hold sacred? What holidays do they celebrate? What are their major beliefs and the foundational myths they teach? What ethical codes do they follow, and why? Where did the religion originate? What is its history?
That's pretty much what we do in Sweden, at least in the later school years. I think it was more Christianity-centric when I was in like grade 1-3, though, but even then it was more about the mythology than some kind of teaching it as fact. But in high school, they taught different religions of the world from a fact-based perspective, although with a stronger emphasis on the various flavors of Christianity on account of it being dominant here. That is, they spent about as much time on, say, Catholicism as they did on Islam, so Christianity as a whole would get more time than any other religion.

I hope they've moved away from the lower-grade emphasis on Christianity now that we no longer have a state religion with the exception of the king, who according to the constitution has to "belong to the pure evangelical faith, as described in the Augsburg Confession and at the Uppsala Synod of 1593". I think that was added because at the time the Act of Succession was written, we were importing a Frenchman to be crown prince, and there was some concern that he would turn all catholic on us.

[there_is_no_bob]

I don't believe in abiogenesisYou probably do. You just think God did it.

...unless you think God is a biological entity. Then you don't.

[AZRogue]

You probably do. You just think God did it.

...unless you think God is a biological entity. Then you don't.

You're probably right. My limited understanding of the subject led me to believe that abiogenisis is the theory that life sprang from a mixture of chemicals--amino acids, proteins, and so on--after being exposed to pressure and heat over time, as an accident.

I just believe that "God breathed life" into the "dust of the ground", and so set the whole thing into motion. So, life's beginning spark by divine will, rather than lucky accident.

And then the evolution happened. :)

[there_is_no_bob]

You're probably right. My limited understanding of the subject led me to believe that abiogenisis is the theory that life sprang from a mixture of chemicals--amino acids, proteins, and so on--after being exposed to pressure and heat over time, as an accident.A-bio-genesis is pretty much exactly what it says: life generating from not-life. 'Course lots of people use it as shorthand for strictly strictly natural abiogenesis but I refuse to let a perfectly good compound word be narrowed down, dammit!

[Schizm]

A-bio-genesis is pretty much exactly what it says: life generating from not-life. 'Course lots of people use it as shorthand for strictly strictly natural abiogenesis but I refuse to let a perfectly good compound word be narrowed down, dammit!

a-dio-bio-genesis? ;)

[Radu]

I don't mind Deism as much. If someone believes that God got the ball rolling then stepped out of the way that is significantly less likely to go hand in hand with more dangerous ideas like hell and sin. It's difficult for a Deist God to really intervene the way religious fundies/extremists prefer--- that's kind of the whole point of Deism.

I see it as a short step from Deism to Atheism as well, so it is slightly more appealing for that reason as well.

[Name Lips]

Well, Deism still kind of works. We have no real scientific theories for "what caused the big bang" so there's room there for God to have done it.

But it's possible that science will discover that big bangs are a natural phenomena too, or discover how universes can come to be spontaneously, or figure out how to trigger the creation of universes on our own and travel into them.

At that point... I don't think God will have anywhere left to hide.

[Hatter]

Well, Deism still kind of works. We have no real scientific theories for "what caused the big bang" so there's room there for God to have done it.

But it's possible that science will discover that big bangs are a natural phenomena too, or discover how universes can come to be spontaneously, or figure out how to trigger the creation of universes on our own and travel into them.

At that point... I don't think God will have anywhere left to hide.

There's some hypotheses about a cyclic universe, the one in the April issue of Astronomy magazine was interesting to read about.

[tleilaxu]

On a related issue, would it diffuse the issue to only teach actual science in our science classrooms and then offer an actual class on creationism, religion and its version of history, maybe even general theology to the point where people might learn the high points of other religions? Offer it as an elective for those students who's parents want their children to learn about creationism and various takes on the subject? It wouldn't be a bad subject, and I could see learning a bit about the "official" beliefs of religion, as well as religions from around the world, as a good thing. It would get people thinking, at least, and offer a choice to those families, who are also helping to fund their local school, that might satisfy them?

heh... it's called anthro 101. :) usually taught in college, though i think it could be of great benefit to high school students as well, especially given the fact that everyone will have to deal with people of different beliefs and from different backgrounds in their adult lives.

[there_is_no_bob]

It doesn't matter what President Obama may say regarding science. We can't even teach the truth in our public school classrooms.
Here's (http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/2009/05/01/Student%20lawsuit%20-%20final%20ruling.pdf) the ruling.

Corbett explained to his class that Peloza, a teacher, "was not telling the kids [Peloza's students] the scientific truth about evolution." Corbett also told his students that, in response to a request to give Peloza space in the newspaper to present his point of view, Corbett stated, "I will not leave John Peloza alone to propagandize kids with this religious, superstitious nonsense."

[Ergeheilalt]

There's some hypotheses about a cyclic universe, the one in the April issue of Astronomy magazine was interesting to read about.

Pffft. Battlestar did it first.

[Scarbonac]

Pffft. Battlestar did it first.

Nope; Stan "the Man" Lee & Jack "King" Kirby, Fantastic Four comics, 1966. Galactus was the last survivor of the previous incarnation of the Universe. Went through the Big Crunch to the Big Bang, reborn as a planet-eating God.

[Ergeheilalt]

Nope; Stan "the Man" Lee & Jack "King" Kirby, Fantastic Four comics, 1966. Galactus was the last survivor of the previous incarnation of the Universe. Went through the Big Crunch to the Big Bang, reborn as a planet-eating God.

Buh?!

My geek cred has been knocked down a few pegs.

[Varaj]

Nope; Stan "the Man" Lee & Jack "King" Kirby, Fantastic Four comics, 1966. Galactus was the last survivor of the previous incarnation of the Universe. Went through the Big Crunch to the Big Bang, reborn as a planet-eating God.

Some 4000 years ago from the Hindu's.

"The Hindu religion is the only one of the world's great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which time scales correspond, no doubt by accident, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scale still."