G20 conflicts - not just in the centre of London

[Cat of Ulthar]

The Cartographer and his son work at Canary Wharf, where there are going to be lots of protests. They have been advised to "dress down" - no suits, just weekend clothes, nothing that shouts "banker". They just work in banks. The proper hotshot bankers that all these protests are about will stay at home counting the bonuses they gave themselves, and the people who are having to go into work are going to get all the trouble.

I've been looking at some of the protest groups' web sites, and it doesn't look nice. "Eat the bankers", disruptive actions, and advice on what to do if you get arrested.

The media haven't helped either. They are so convinced that there are going to be riots, that everyone who fancies a bit of rioteering will turn up tomorrow, and proper peaceful demonstrators will be scared off.

And I will be among the protesters. At the other side of the fence, as it were. Lots of discussions ensued at our home, of course, mostly between me and the stepson, with the Cartographer able to see both our points. He is worried I will get caught up in violence despite my group being a peaceful environmentalist one hopefully away from the hotbeds. He spent such a long time arguing why I should not go, that I finally gave in, saying that I did not want to worry him and I would stay at home; only for him then to say that I definately should go because he did not want to keep me from doing what I wanted! :rolleyes:

I wonder what it's going to be like tomorrow. I fear many places will not be pretty, and I fear that is going to be what draws attention and will make the general public adverse to the good ideas most protesters have, because there are always people who think kicking stuff and throwing stones at policemen is fun.

Should I stay away because of that? I don't think so, because I don't feel genuine demonstrators should back off because of some rabble rousers. I hope the G20 will look beyond the massive nuisance those people are making of themselves, to the thousands who genuinely care and want to make a point.

[nerfherder]

Be safe, Cat. We've been advised not to plan any meetings in London for the next couple of days (not that I was likely to - my customer is in Edinburgh).

[AZRogue]

Good for you for not staying away. I think it's extremely admirable when people are willing to stand up for something they believe.

That said, though, please be careful. You can't reason with someone so upset that he suddenly feels that the mob at his back is justification for becoming violent. Being in a large crowd of angry people has a powerful energy of its own and you have to be careful when you're near it because it has nothing to do with reason and everything to do with our uglier emotional tensions.

So, I think you should still go if that is what you wanted to do, but be as careful as you can and try to avoid the people feeding off one another's anger and negative emotion. Be safe.

[nerfherder]

Oh yeah, I meant to say - the crowd you are in might get hemmed in by the police for a few hours. They've done it before, and politicians who were part of peaceful protests have complained about it. Be prepared to be stuck somewhere you're not allowed to move from for a few hours - take snacks, water and a mobile phone with plenty of charge, and don't make any plans for the evening.

Good luck!

[The Winslow]

They get a pretext to not wear a suit and it's a bad thing?

[Cat of Ulthar]

So, I didn't go.

The Cartographer was really worried, saying exactly what AZ said, things might suddenly get heated and I might get caught up in things, and I did not know what English protests are like, they would be less peaceful and the police less sweet than in the Netherlands. So I decided I'd stay in, and see what is happening this time.

So far it has been as I had thought: the G20 meltdown group, concentrating on the Bank of England, has been the most problematic. Some arrests have been made, a few scuffles have broken out between the police and protesters. The Climate Camp is going surprisingly well: they have set up their camp in a busy city street and all seems to move along peacefully. Nothing on the news about the action I was going to be a part of, which probably means it is going along peacefully.

The Cartographer just called feeling guilty, poor man. I told him I'd enlist him in my WWF campaign so he can assuage his guilt.:)

So yeah, copout. Or you could say, seeing what London is like at a time like this before diving in. My mother is relieved I did not go (hold on, who did I learn all this peaceful protesting from!?). The Cartographer and his son have so far not had any trouble.

[Cat of Ulthar]

Getting ugly round the Bank of England and Royal Bank of Scotland. Windows of RBS have been smashed, the police are locking in protesters there.

[AZRogue]

No reason for anyone to feel guilty. You can't fault the man for wanting you to be safe. Though I'm very sorry you missed your demonstration I'm glad you're okay and can now play-by-play the event for us. :)

[nerfherder]

Getting ugly round the Bank of England and Royal Bank of Scotland. Windows of RBS have been smashed, the police are locking in protesters there.
The admin of another forum I frequent is stuck inside his office. Not sure if it's the RBS one or not.

This is the view from his window:

[Cat of Ulthar]

That looks like around Bishopsgate, that's where they are putting up the Climate Camp.

[doc]

I didn't know Cartographer was a banker (or is it his son ?), well good luck to both.

You have a campaign set in the World Wrestling Federation ???

[Cat of Ulthar]

I didn't know Cartographer was a banker (or is it his son ?), well good luck to both.

You have a campaign set in the World Wrestling Federation ???

The Cartographer is an IT manager for a bank, his son works in the mailroom.

I don't understand the police's approach to this, they lock people in between police lines and keep them there. Some people have started throwing things at the police. I can't justify that, but I can say that keeping people locked inside a street for hours is likely to incite aggression. Why not arrest the main troublemakers and let the rest of the crowd slowly disperse, a few people at a time?

[doc]

The Cartographer is an IT manager for a bank, his son works in the mailroom.

They make the mailroom guy wear a suit ???

[Cat of Ulthar]

They make the mailroom guy wear a suit ???

No, but a shirt and fancy trousers.

[AZRogue]

The Cartographer is an IT manager for a bank, his son works in the mailroom.

I don't understand the police's approach to this, they lock people in between police lines and keep them there. Some people have started throwing things at the police. I can't justify that, but I can say that keeping people locked inside a street for hours is likely to incite aggression. Why not arrest the main troublemakers and let the rest of the crowd slowly disperse, a few people at a time?

Law enforcement groups rarely use common sense when devising a response to a situation. They go first with what they feel will provide them the most safety--such as containing groups that might become aggressive and limiting their movement.

It probably never occurs to many of them that locking them up in the first place probably encourages aggression.

[doc]

Nothing more rowdy then a bunch of bankers on a rampage

[Cat of Ulthar]

Law enforcement groups rarely use common sense when devising a response to a situation. They go first with what they feel will provide them the most safety--such as containing groups that might become aggressive and limiting their movement.

It probably never occurs to many of them that locking them up in the first place probably encourages aggression.

They've been planning this for weeks, surely they could have devised a better strategy?

[doc]

They've been planning this for weeks, surely they could have devised a better strategy?

Round up the usual suspects ? No matter what the polize did it would have been wrong to some group, better play it by ear.

[Freedom Canadian]

One article I read said that there were people in the bank's upper windows taunting the protesters and waving handfuls of paper money at them.

I find that hard to believe, personally.

It probably never occurs to many of them that locking them up in the first place probably encourages aggression.

I can assure you the police officers who planned this know a lot more than you ever will about group dynamics. :)

[Cat of Ulthar]

One article I read said that there were people in the bank's upper windows taunting the protesters and waving handfuls of paper money at them.

No, it's true, unfortunately. Wankers.:(

[AZRogue]

I can assure you the police officers who planned this know a lot more than you ever will about group dynamics. :)

No, you're right. I can only go off my own observations, though, and those observations tell me that they spend much more time worrying about such problems from a containment and control perspective and don't necessarily feel the need to wonder how much their safety measures might actually antagonize the protesters, thus making things less safe.

I have no idea if this is so and would definitely bow to their judgment on such a thing, just noting my observation as a person from the outside looking in. :)

[Freedom Canadian]

No, you're right. I can only go off my own observations, though, and those observations tell me that they spend much more time worrying about such problems from a containment and control perspective and don't necessarily feel the need to wonder how much their safety measures might actually antagonize the protesters, thus making things less safe.

I have no idea if this is so and would definitely bow to their judgment on such a thing, just noting my observation as a person from the outside looking in. :)

I think in most cases it's more of a matter of trade-offs. Like they know that this will probably antagonize protesters but it's worth it because it prevents troublemakers from marching all over town destroying everything.

(That is only an example. I am not an expert either and I can't know what the London police riot squad high-ups are thinking so I know that it is their reasoning in this case.)

[Cat of Ulthar]

One article I read said that there were people in the bank's upper windows taunting the protesters and waving handfuls of paper money at them.

This made me so angry. Those protesters were not just anticapitalists and antiglobalists, there were people there who had lost their jobs, some their homes, there were pensioners who had seen their pensions threatened, because of irresponsible behaviour from those selfsame bankers. Taunting them, showing that you *do* still have lots of cash, though you have bankrupted them, is utterly tasteless.

Honestly, if I had been in that crowd and there would have been a handy rock nearby...:mad:

[there_is_no_bob]

Honestly, if I had been in that crowd and there would have been a handy rock nearby...:mad:
Just in case this ever occurs, please don't do this. There's a non-negligible chance that the the rock will bounce off the window, resulting in injuries to someone down below.

[Cat of Ulthar]

Just in case this ever occurs, please don't do this. There's a non-negligible chance that the the rock will bounce off the window, resulting in injuries to someone down below.

Of course I would not. Pacifist upbringing and all that. But I can understand people get angry. And who gets to deal with the angry people? Coppers who also did not ask to be there, not the asshole bankers.

[Freedom Canadian]

Of course I would not. Pacifist upbringing and all that. But I can understand people get angry. And who gets to deal with the angry people? Coppers who also did not ask to be there, not the asshole bankers.

You know, I'm pro law enforcement (duh) and all for the rule of law, but if some vigilante justice happened to the asshole(s) who did this, I would say he fully deserved it. :)

[Ancalagon]

according to the economist, the protests were far more muted than the media is making them to be:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13404273&CFID=49692653&CFTOKEN=72337799

The G20 protests
Wagging the dog

[Name Lips]

according to the economist, the protests were far more muted than the media is making them to be:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13404273&CFID=49692653&CFTOKEN=72337799

The G20 protests
Wagging the dog

If you were trying to sell a newspaper, would you report on tens of thousands of peaceful, boring protesters or 20 or so violent, stupid ones?

[nerfherder]

You know, I'm pro law enforcement (duh) and all for the rule of law, but if some vigilante justice happened to the asshole(s) who did this, I would say he fully deserved it. :)
So, if the Police did this, say in the 1984 Miner's Strike - waving their overtime pay packets at the Miners who were on strike for nearly a year - what would your view be...?

[nerfherder]

One article I read said that there were people in the bank's upper windows taunting the protesters and waving handfuls of paper money at them.
Do you have a link, as I can't find any reference to this? Knowing some of the press here, it wouldn't surprise me if it was made up. On the other hand, a lot of things don't get reported - I know from first hand experience that some "security incidents" never appear in the news.

[Cat of Ulthar]

If you were trying to sell a newspaper, would you report on tens of thousands of peaceful, boring protesters or 20 or so violent, stupid ones?
Yeah, that's the Law of the Media. I've been in "hotbeds of violence" before and not noticed a thing until frantic parents/boyfriends/embassies started ringing.
Do you have a link, as I can't find any reference to this? Knowing some of the press here, it wouldn't surprise me if it was made up. On the other hand, a lot of things don't get reported - I know from first hand experience that some "security incidents" never appear in the news.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/G20-Arrests-As-Protesters-Storm-RBS-Bank-And-Clash-With-Police-In-City-Of-London/Article/200903415252669?f=rss

[nerfherder]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/G20-Arrests-As-Protesters-Storm-RBS-Bank-And-Clash-With-Police-In-City-Of-London/Article/200903415252669?f=rss
Thanks - it was a one-liner, so I may have missed it in other reports that I'd skimmed earlier. :)

[Black Angel]

according to the economist, the protests were far more muted than the media is making them to be:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13404273&CFID=49692653&CFTOKEN=72337799


But didn't some guy (a protester) die because the police couldn't get him to help? That still seems pretty extreme to me, that other protesters were so intent on what they were doing, they fail to see someone in their own group needs assistance.

Bleh I can't think of the right words I need to say what I want to say clearly...

[Freedom Canadian]

So, if the Police did this, say in the 1984 Miner's Strike - waving their overtime pay packets at the Miners who were on strike for nearly a year - what would your view be...?

Pretty much the same. :)

A badge does not make you immune to being an asshole.

[Cat of Ulthar]

But didn't some guy (a protester) die because the police couldn't get him to help? That still seems pretty extreme to me, that other protesters were so intent on what they were doing, they fail to see someone in their own group needs assistance.

Bleh I can't think of the right words I need to say what I want to say clearly...
Where did you hear this? What I read was entirely different:

According to an eye witness; he suddenly collapsed and hit the ground. Someone with a megaphone called out to the police "We got a casualty, can we get a medic?". When the police moved in, some people further back thought they were charging.

"There were a couple of people throwing bottles in that general direction," he said. "But they were told to stop doing that by the crowd. In fact, some people in the crowd threatened to kill them if they did anything to disrupt the treatment."

Another witness, Fran Legg, said she and a friend had rushed to help Mr Tomlinson after they realised he was not well. "People were calling out: 'Please, we need medics over here'," said the 20-year-old student, from Tavistock, in Devon. "Someone called an ambulance." Her friend put him in the recovery position and noticed he had blood on his face and was losing consciousness.

Legg said protesters were calling for people to move back and give him space as eight police officers arrived. By the time the ambulance reached the scene 10 minutes later, Mr Tomlinson was very white and could hardly breath.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/02/g20-summit-protester-death

The cause of death is yet to be determined, but is expected to have been a heart attack.

If anyone has been acting irresponsibly, I think it's the police. Look at Anc's Economist article:
Every road that leads away from the Bank of England is blocked by thick lines of police officers, letting no one in or out. When we ask why, their responses—from “maybe someone’s been hurt. Or maybe someone’s been silly” to “you’re not allowed to go through because we’ve taken control of the streets today”—are uniformly unsatisfactory.

The crowd behind us begins to swell, as does its frustration. One man pleads to be let through because he is diabetic and has no food or insulin with him. The officers are unyielding. It is an “absolute cordon” and no one is going anywhere. Scrabbling around in our bags and appealing to the crowd, we manage to scrounge together a banana and a chocolate bar but he is shaky.
Just "kettling" in all protesters seems barely legal to me. Tell people they have a right to protest, but when they exercise that right lock them all in without food, water and sanitation for hours on end? The reason the police gave was that the protesters "might go and cause trouble" when let free. So thousands of people are deprived of their freedom for hours on end because they exercise their right to protest on the grounds of "they might go and cause trouble". Yeay for a free country.

[The Winslow]

Yeay for a free country.

I blame Thatcher. She killed the culture of public protest that existed before.

[Freedom Canadian]

Tell people they have a right to protest, but when they exercise that right lock them all in without food, water and sanitation for hours on end? The reason the police gave was that the protesters "might go and cause trouble" when let free. So thousands of people are deprived of their freedom for hours on end because they exercise their right to protest on the grounds of "they might go and cause trouble". Yeay for a free country.

At the last G8 summit in Montreal, the Montreal police did much the same, blocking last groups of protesters from getting anywhere near the conference "in case there was trouble". That was uncharacteristically harsh even for the Montreal riot squad and even a lot of police officers thought that was going too far.

I mean, sure, there would without doubt have been trouble, but you kinda have to let it happen before you intervene. It's the nature of police work, or at least should be.

Anyway, this certainly seems to be SOP worldwide for G8/G20 summits. :grey:

[Freedom Canadian]

One of yesterday's news stories in Montreal reminded me of an example to illustrate the following problem:

No, you're right. I can only go off my own observations, though, and those observations tell me that they spend much more time worrying about such problems from a containment and control perspective and don't necessarily feel the need to wonder how much their safety measures might actually antagonize the protesters, thus making things less safe.


Last summer, a Montreal police officer shot a young black man during a fight. Since that part of town is high with racial tensions and police-community relations are bad due to the police cracking down on street gangs, this did not go over well.

The following day, a lot of people took to the streets. The Montreal police decided not to inflame tensions by having a minimal police presence at the scene so as not to provoke the crowd. Of course, it did not work and the situation devolved into a huge riot where people expressed their anger at racial profiling by destroying and looting the local (mostly black owned) stores. Eventually, more police got called in and people (probably gang members since handguns are pretty rare here) were taking shots at police officers from afar (which is not something I ever remember happening around these parts).

After these events, a lot of people blamed the police for not being there in force to prevent the riots. Had they been there in force, a lot of people (the same people, probably) would have blamed the police for creating the riot by provoking the peaceful crowd with their exaggerated police presence.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :)

[Cat of Ulthar]

At the last G8 summit in Montreal, the Montreal police did much the same, blocking last groups of protesters from getting anywhere near the conference "in case there was trouble". That was uncharacteristically harsh even for the Montreal riot squad and even a lot of police officers thought that was going too far.

Blocking them from reaching the conference centre I can understand. Blocking them from going *anywhere* goes too far.

[Freedom Canadian]

Blocking them from reaching the conference centre I can understand. Blocking them from going *anywhere* goes too far.

Oh boxing them in so they could not move at all and waiting for a few hours is exactly what they did in the case I'm talking about. I should have been clearer. :)

In that case, it did work though. There was no rioting at all (which puts a big hole in AZRogue's earlier theory now that I think about it). But detaining people (a lot of whom are innocent) for hours is pretty scummy (albeit technically legal).

[Black Angel]

Where did you hear this? What I read was entirely different:

According to an eye witness; he suddenly collapsed and hit the ground. Someone with a megaphone called out to the police "We got a casualty, can we get a medic?". When the police moved in, some people further back thought they were charging.



I was just going by how it has been reported in the TV media over here. Basically they said a similar thing to what you did above, but pretty much glossed over that any crowd around tried to assist. Really, I was just surprised in this thread that noone had mentioned it either way. I'm not sure I have an opinion either way myself, at least not strong enough to take a strong stance and debate on it. Yes, I know I'm wussing out! :P

[Cat of Ulthar]

I was just going by how it has been reported in the TV media over here. Basically they said a similar thing to what you did above, but pretty much glossed over that any crowd around tried to assist. Really, I was just surprised in this thread that noone had mentioned it either way. I'm not sure I have an opinion either way myself, at least not strong enough to take a strong stance and debate on it. Yes, I know I'm wussing out! :P

Well, it goes to show how media reports can distort people's opinion, and how the police will back each other up when one of them fucks up.

New footage came out which shows the guy who died walking home from work with his hands in his pockets (he was not a protester, he was just trying to get home from his job), when a policeman rams his baton into his leg from behind and then pushes him to the ground. As the guy had his hands in his pockets, he was not able to break his fall. Shortly after that, he collapsed from a heart attack.

View the footage here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7988828.stm

What disgusts me is that the police tried to blame it on the protesters, while the protesters asked for an investigation of police behaviour. And why hitting and pushing a guy who is walking away from you with his hands in his pockets? Would this even be investigated if this New Yorker did not happen to have made a video and sent it to a paper? What about police cameras in the City, did they not record this?

[nerfherder]

I saw the footage last night. Shocking behaviour by the police. The IPCC have now taken full control of the investigation, rather than just overseeing the Police enquiry. They're still trying to identify the police officers involved, and have ordered a second post-mortem.

Well done to the banker who took the footage and forwarded it to the press.