A French Canadian in America (NOT about Gen Con)

[Freedom Canadian]

I will not be talking about all the fun I had at Gen Con. Too many people are doing it these days on various boards.

This thread is where I will talk about the stuff I have noticed on this trip, my second trip outside the country.

In all I drove 4500 km during those two weeks. I drove down to Windsor, then from there to Illinois, then I went and visited St Louis, then back to IL, then Gen Con in Indy, then a stop in Dayton, OH. I drove back to Montreal yesterday (a 15 hour drive in one day :eek:).

First of all, both times I was in the US, I was struck by how similar life was there compared to here (except for the language thing and the weather). I mean, sure, there are differences, but then there are differences between different areas in the US too. Illinois felt a lot like rural Québec (i.e. where I grew up) and St Louis and Indy felt somewhat like Montreal.

That said, there are differences, of course. I will explain what struck me the most.

1. Highways

Globally, people tend to drive pretty slowly in the US compared to what I'm used to here. I mean, a sizeable percentage of drivers on highways obey the speed limit. :eek:

The fastest drivers were on highway 401 around Toronto. I was driving 130 kph in the middle lane and people were passing me like mad. It was even a little scary and I usually drive a bit too fast.

Mmh, and I noticed that Illinois has speed cameras on highways. I hope I won't get a bill in the mail. Ah nuts.

Among US states, Illinois drivers were the slowest (i.e. most careful I guess) (except around getting-back-from-work time) and the drivers in Ohio the fastest, going almost as fast as Québec drivers.

2. Consumerism

I have noticed that prices are somewhat lower in the US for most things (although that is probably due to the currently-weak US dollar) and it is usually easier to spend your money. Wal-mart is open 24 hours a day (they close around 9pm every day here) and there is a bunch of drive through stuff - drive through ATMs (which are only beginning to appear here), prescription medicine counters and even liquor stores (:eek:).

3. Booze

Booze is way easier to buy and way cheaper. It's a wonder you guys aren't drunk all the time. This is especially true for hard liquor, but that's because the Québec government adds a huge sin tax to liquor. For instance, a 60 oz bottle of Gordon's gin is $46,75 in QC and $12,80 at an IL Walmart. (This is the most extreme example I've come across. Luxury items like Grey Goose vodka have a smaller difference in prices).

I didn't check beer, though. How much is a 12 pack of beer in the US ?

Booze is also way easier to buy. I already mentioned you could buy gin at Walmart. In fact, going to buy booze at Walmart at 1:30 in the morning is one of the most surreal experiences of my whole trip. :)

In contrast, in QC, you can only buy liquor and expensive wines at the SAQ, the government-run liquor store chain. The opening hours of those stores vary widely, but very few will open past 6pm most of the week and 9pm on thursday and friday. You can buy beer and cheaper wines at the grocery stores and neighborhood convenience stores.

Ontarians have it even worse. They have to buy beer at the beer store. Eek. :eek:


4. Food

I think I found out why America has so much of a weight problem. OMG are those food portions huge. Well, not everywhere, but most fast food places at least. For instance, Burger Kings here have a double whopper but not a triple whopper. And then you have the huge soft drink glasses combined with free refills and waitresses that seem to be very eager to bring you a refill when it's half full. In my case, it's no biggie as I drink diet pepsi and 0 calories multiplied by 10 is still 0 calories. But for people who drink regular pop, that's a LOT of calories, man.

(If you're curious, I lost 2 pounds during my trip, but then I did skip many meals and walk a lot at Gen Con. But if I had been drinking regular pepsi, with the whole heat wave thing, I would have balooned.)

While I was down there, I tried a bunch of fast food chains we don't have here: White Castle, Hardees, Taco Bell, Steak and Shake and Penn Station. They ranged from "that's food ?" to "wish they had this back home".

Oh, and McDonald's hamburgers are greasier in the US than here. I don't know if it's the meat or cooking grease, but they just are.


I'll add to this if I think of other noteworthy differences.

[Atropine Mama]

This is a great thread, man. Culture shock is always interesting.

I loved hearing my sister talk about the differences between the US and Australia, which were much more pronounced than the differences between Kansas City and LA, which she lived in for a few years. Canada and the US seem to have a lot in common, but it's those little differences that make a person feel comfortable or in alien-land.

Keep posting your thoughts, FC!

[doc]

So what did you think of Taco Hell ? Meet any easy women in you travels ? Next time head further south and get to Memphis and Arkansas, you can revel in Graceland at the first and I'll treat you to some home cookin' here.

[EhtoZed]

While I was down there, I tried a bunch of fast food chains we don't have here: White Castle, Hardees, Taco Bell, Steak and Shake and Penn Station. They ranged from "that's food ?" to "wish they had this back home".

Oh, and McDonald's hamburgers are greasier in the US than here. I don't know if it's the meat or cooking grease, but they just are.We have Taco Bell. At least in Ontario we do. I seem to remember thinking it was weird Montreal didn't have any. Maybe that goes for the whole province.

As far as greasier McDonalds I've never found any difference between Windsor McDs and the US McDs. Maybe it's a regional thing? It could say more about the quality of Quebec's McDonalds (and less about Windsor's :().

[Droid101]

Globally, people tend to drive pretty slowly in the US compared to what I'm used to here. I mean, a sizeable percentage of drivers on highways obey the speed limit. :eek:

I'm going to have to say, it's the part of the country you were in. In California, people drive way faster than that. Also I hear in Texas, they drive even faster than those in California, and tend to tailgate more (can a Texan agree? This terrifies me).

Sounds like a cool trip, but you need to come to Southern California and see how us civilized folk live. :p

[doc]

Texans are crazy on the road, FC Pine Bluff girls are easy :)

[Freedom Canadian]

This is a great thread, man. Culture shock is always interesting.


Only to you and me, it seems. :D

Do you have examples of striking Australia-US differences ?


I just thought of 2 other examples.

5. Protectionism

In Québec, some locally produced stuff is protected from foreign competition by legislation. Milk, butter and beer (and possibly bread, but I'm not 100% sure) all have a minimum price. This is done to protect our struggling industry by preventing huge american producers from flooding our market with cheap stuff. Of course, it results in higher prices for the consumers and it prevents our industry from having to modernize.

Gas also has a minimum price. You can't sell it at a loss, basically. This is done to prevent the major oil companies from selling gas at a loss for 3 months in order to kill all the independent gas stations.

6. Traffic enforcement (or Highways part 2)

In my second day of driving, I saw a grand total of 1 cop car in 8 hours of driving. It was a trooper in IL who was clearly in a hurry to get somewhere. I did see speed cameras in IL, though. (I hope I don't get a fun ticket in the mail.)

In contrast, I saw way more cops in Ohio and Ontario.

Also, the speed limit changes pretty often in the US, often for no reason I could fathom. Here, roads usually have a constant speed limit, barring something weird like road works. Highways are 100 kph and provincial roads 90 kph. Both of these drop to 70 kph in busy urban areas (but people still drive over 100 kph unless there is dense traffic).

[Freedom Canadian]

Funny, nobody answers for a while and while I'm typing a comment to that effect, everybody starts posting. :D

So what did you think of Taco Hell ?

I like it. :D

Meet any easy women in you travels ?

Not really. Unless you count that old drunken women at Becky's Bar who kept alternating between telling me to fuck off and return to Canada and saying that older women make better lovers. She ended up being thrown out eventually. :D

Oh, I got carded that night. WTF ? (And I hadn't bothered bringing my passport and they couldn't understand my french health insurance card.)

Next time head further south and get to Memphis and Arkansas, you can revel in Graceland at the first and I'll treat you to some home cookin' here.

I would love to. But how far is it from, say, St Louis ? (That was very near to the farthest distance I can drive in the vacation time I have, I'm afraid.)

We have Taco Bell. At least in Ontario we do. I seem to remember thinking it was weird Montreal didn't have any. Maybe that goes for the whole province.

We got our first Taco Bell last november. However, I went there once and the service took almost an hour. They are supposed to open other ones soon, though.



As far as greasier McDonalds I've never found any difference between Windsor McDs and the US McDs. Maybe it's a regional thing? It could say more about the quality of Quebec's McDonalds (and less about Windsor's :().

Maybe, but I doubt it. Do you eat often at McD ?


I'm going to have to say, it's the part of the country you were in. In California, people drive way faster than that. Also I hear in Texas, they drive even faster than those in California, and tend to tailgate more (can a Texan agree? This terrifies me).

That's what I thought.

Sounds like a cool trip, but you need to come to Southern California and see how us civilized folk live. :p

I will, some day. Not by car, obviously. :D

[Harry]

First of all, both times I was in the US, I was struck by how similar life was there compared to here (except for the language thing and the weather). I mean, sure, there are differences, but then there are differences between different areas in the US too. Illinois felt a lot like rural Québec (i.e. where I grew up) and St Louis and Indy felt somewhat like Montreal.

Well, you do realise that you were in a part of the US that has a lot in common with Canadia, right? The differences would have been far more profound if you'd been on a trip over to the east or south of the Ohio River, or points southwest.

[doc]

Don't you think FCs horizons would be expanded with a trip to the Beale Street Harry, or some BBQ nachos at the Interstate ?

[Freedom Canadian]

Well, you do realise that you were in a part of the US that has a lot in common with Canadia, right? The differences would have been far more profound if you'd been on a trip over to the east or south of the Ohio River, or points southwest.

Sure. The differences would also have been more profound if I had visited the maritime provinces of Canada or BC. :)

[Maddman]

It's a wonder you guys aren't drunk all the time.

If you didn't notice, we're pretty much drunk all the time. There's a gig Friday and Saturday this weekend, with the second one being a biker festival. So I should be pretty hung over by Sunday, when I have to run a game. Woohoo!

Not really. Unless you count that old drunken women at Becky's Bar who kept alternating between telling me to fuck off and return to Canada and saying that older women make better lovers. She ended up being thrown out eventually.

That was awesome. She was bothering the shit out of everyone, including me and FC. She finally took a swing at the bartender, who grabbed her arm and yelled GET THE HELL OUT OF MY BAR, BITCH and tossed her out the door.

It really isn't a rough place, just happened the night Freedom Canadian was with us. :D

[Freedom Canadian]

If you didn't notice, we're pretty much drunk all the time. There's a gig Friday and Saturday this weekend, with the second one being a biker festival. So I should be pretty hung over by Sunday, when I have to run a game. Woohoo!

Well, sure, you guys are drunk all the time, but I was talking about americans in general. :D


That was awesome.

Yup. Rep++ to Becky. :D Is she really a former cop ? (I heard that at some point.)

[EhtoZed]

We got our first Taco Bell last november. However, I went there once and the service took almost an hour. They are supposed to open other ones soon, though.An hour!? That's insane. I guess I won't be destroying my intestines while I'm in Montreal.

Maybe, but I doubt it. Do you eat often at McD ?Pretty rarely actually.

[Droid101]

I did see speed cameras in IL, though. (I hope I don't get a fun ticket in the mail.)


Those radar speed detectors don't give tickets (that I'm aware of). The only cameras that give tickets are the ones that monitor if you run through a red light. I could be wrong on this, but that's how it is here in So. Cal.


Also, some of the differences (although slight) kinda scare me. The minimum price thing seems a bit odd, but I guess I understand it.

[Freedom Canadian]

An hour!? That's insane. I guess I won't be destroying my intestines while I'm in Montreal.

It's also far out of the way.

The thing is, it's also a KFC and there is only one line, so if you get there and there's a line with 5 people, 4 of those are there to get huge buckets of chicken to go for their whole family.

And it was new in this city so all the employees were new at making burritos.


Pretty rarely actually.

Ah-ha ! I eat there twice a week. It's close, but not quite the same thing.

[Freedom Canadian]

Those radar speed detectors don't give tickets (that I'm aware of). The only cameras that give tickets are the ones that monitor if you run through a red light. I could be wrong on this, but that's how it is here in So. Cal.

Well, there are huge signs saying something like "Traffic speed enforced with cameras" before you get to them, so I guess they do generate tickets. Otherwise, what would be the point of putting them on highways ?

Also, some of the differences (although slight) kinda scare me. The minimum price thing seems a bit odd, but I guess I understand it.

What are the things that scare you ? :)

[Droid101]

Well, there are huge signs saying something like "Traffic speed enforced with cameras" before you get to them, so I guess they do generate tickets. Otherwise, what would be the point of putting them on highways ?They say that everywhere. "Speed enforced by radar" just means they are monitoring the speed. I assume so a traffic cop could pull you over, but the devices themselves don't send out automatic tickets that I'm aware of.


What are the things that scare you ? :)Mostly just controlling the price, sale and distribution of items, including alcohol.

Most fast food places where I'm at stay open 24 hours, as well as most of the grocery stores around here. No 24 hour Walmarts that I know of, but if you live in the city and go to Walmart, you're pretty much a redneck.

[Freedom Canadian]

They say that everywhere. "Speed enforced by radar" just means they are monitoring the speed. I assume so a traffic cop could pull you over, but the devices themselves don't send out automatic tickets that I'm aware of.

We have "Speed enforced by radar" signs everywhere too. And they have them in IL too. I'm talking about a totally different sign, "Speed enforced by photo radar" or something like that. It's followed by one or two camera arrays.




Mostly just controlling the price, sale and distribution of items, including alcohol.

Oh. That doesn't scare me. I don't like it, but I'm used to it and in all, it's a minor (if costly in the case of vodka) inconvenience.

[Dacke]

In Sweden, we have speed cameras that do give you tickets. Recently, some control freaks have started talking about keeping track of individual vehicles and calculating the speed between cameras and possibly giving tickets based on that. I hope that stays at talk though, WAY too much control society for me.

[Droid101]

In Sweden, we have speed cameras that do give you tickets. Recently, some control freaks have started talking about keeping track of individual vehicles and calculating the speed between cameras and possibly giving tickets based on that. I hope that stays at talk though, WAY too much control society for me.

This is all perpetuated by the myth that speeding causes accidents.

Speeding doesn't cause accidents, tailgating does.

If you're going 50km/hr, or 500, it doesn't cause you to crash unless there is someone in front of you who stops too fast for you to react.

[Dacke]

I believe speeding can cause accidents, and it can definitely aggravate them. However, it is not the primary cause of them.

The thing is, it's cheaper for the gov't to put up new speed limit signs and traffic cameras, than it is to actually make roads safer.

[Droid101]

I believe speeding can cause accidents, and it can definitely aggravate them. However, it is not the primary cause of them.


I did word that wrong. The myth is that speeding and drunk driving are the two biggest causes of accidents. However, this just isn't true.

Tailgating is the biggest cause of accidents. The rest of the causes just line up behind that.

[Maddman]

I did word that wrong. The myth is that speeding and drunk driving are the two biggest causes of accidents. However, this just isn't true.

Tailgating is the biggest cause of accidents. The rest of the causes just line up behind that.

Note: suggesting that people who drink and then drive are anything other than child murdering demons is likely to get you dogpiled. Just sayin.

And I agree totally. Speed limits are more about local governments using the fines to raise revenue than public safety. The biggest problems are, as you noted, tailgating and IMO not going with the flow of traffic. If everyone is going 70 and some asshole is doing 95, weaving in and out, yeah he should get a ticket before he hits someone. But if everyone is going 70 and some jerkoff is going 45, that's just about as likely to cause an accident and should be ticketed as well.

Yup. Rep++ to Becky. Is she really a former cop ? (I heard that at some point.)

It was Crystal, one of the bartenders, that was doing the throwing out. The owner, Becky, I don't believe was there that night. Neither are former cops, but there is a former cop who is a regular, and I believe he was there that night.

[Droid101]

Note: suggesting that people who drink and then drive are anything other than child murdering demons is likely to get you dogpiled. Just sayin.


Just because it's not the leading cause of accidents, doesn't mean it's not preventable.



You child murdering demon.

;)

[Freedom Canadian]

I did word that wrong. The myth is that speeding and drunk driving are the two biggest causes of accidents. However, this just isn't true.

Tailgating is the biggest cause of accidents. The rest of the causes just line up behind that.

Can you back that up ? :)

It was Crystal, one of the bartenders, that was doing the throwing out. The owner, Becky, I don't believe was there that night.

Oh, I thought she was the owner for some reason. :)

Rep ++ to Crystal then.

[Droid101]

Can you back that up ? :)



Just about as much as they can back up the fact that speeding is the leading cause of accidents. :p

However, I have common sense and anectodal evidence on my side! :o

[Freedom Canadian]

Just about as much as they can back up the fact that speeding is the leading cause of accidents. :p

Ah, research then ? :)

The thing is, speed and tailgating are linked in the sense that the safe distance you have to maintain between you and the car in front depends on speed.

Also, everything happens faster at high speeds, so your reflexes are less effective.

I agree that the current speed limits are mostly about tax grabs (and a bit about lowering usage of gasoline I guess).


However, I have common sense and anectodal evidence on my side! :o

Plus the Power of Belief (tm). :D

[Ergeheilalt]

I'm going to have to say, it's the part of the country you were in. In California, people drive way faster than that. Also I hear in Texas, they drive even faster than those in California, and tend to tailgate more (can a Texan agree? This terrifies me).


Holy shit yes! I've no driven out to Texas, I normally fly out, but even when I'm there and in the passenger seat (I'm not allowed to drive the van... :o), I'm on edge because these bastards don't just tail gate, like enjoy tailgating in the blind spot, the next lane over. Switching lanes is heart attack inducing.

[Harry]

Don't you think FCs horizons would be expanded with a trip to the Beale Street Harry, or some BBQ nachos at the Interstate ?

I don't know, Doc. I really couldn't call it. FC seems a nice enough guy, and stable to boot, but I've seen plenty of Canadians flip out around here. The heat, the accent, the culture shock, the living dangerously aspect of it all. But more than anything, it's our Negroes that really knocks them for a loop. Lots and lots of Negroes.

[Atropine Mama]

I was going to post some of the culture shock stuff about my sister's move from the US to Oz, but now the thread train is off the tracks and landed in speeding/DUI land so I'll just post one thing:

NO ELECTRIC DRYERS IN OZ

WTF is wrong with you people in Australia? She thought she was going to die of clothing-to-skin exfoliation! Have you people ever heard of fabric softener? How do you move in clothes that bend like cardboard when you sit? Do you enjoy getting underwear cuts?

No wonder she's moving back here less than two years later.

:D

[NGRI]

FC. A quick note on the price and availability of booze. The sale is regulated by the individual states. Illinois has the lowest price of any state I know of. They also allow sales in regular stores. In Ohio the price is higher and the booze is only sold at state licensed stores with a limit on the number of stores that can sell booze in a particular geographical area.

I have been to Canada a few times and the difference I noticed is that the Canadian really are more polite then Americans. This was most apparent when I was in Canada with a group of drunken young lawyers. The waiter at an upscale restaurant was very polite, even when he found himself in the middle of a food fight. I could tell that he wanted to let loose a diatribe of obscenity at us but being Canadian, all he said was “Please stop”

[Bones]

Holy shit yes! I've no driven out to Texas, I normally fly out, but even when I'm there and in the passenger seat (I'm not allowed to drive the van... :o), I'm on edge because these bastards don't just tail gate, like enjoy tailgating in the blind spot, the next lane over. Switching lanes is heart attack inducing.

We only do that to out of staters. It is extra points if they are from California.

[Pigs in Space]

I was going to post some of the culture shock stuff about my sister's move from the US to Oz, but now the thread train is off the tracks and landed in speeding/DUI land so I'll just post one thing:

NO ELECTRIC DRYERS IN OZ

WTF is wrong with you people in Australia? She thought she was going to die of clothing-to-skin exfoliation! Have you people ever heard of fabric softener? How do you move in clothes that bend like cardboard when you sit? Do you enjoy getting underwear cuts?

No wonder she's moving back here less than two years later.

:D

heheh.

Since I'm kinda here (in the US) on business right now (and working my ass off) I am totally going to rip off FC and do one of these threads in a week and a half.

On my hitlist:
- everyone has a new car.
- the dulled eyes and fuck you attitude (who I may be wrong in assuming) of minimum wage workers.
- volume of speech.
- gigantic restaurants seating millions of people, and the fact that every restaurant has a bar.

Pretty much everything else is the same. ;)

[mollygrue]

i live in michigan F.C. so things arnt all that different--but i have noticed a few things--your coffee is way stronger, the stores etc tend to be cleaner, and people over all tend to be cleaner & more polite. only "difficulty " i even had was right after 9-11 driving across canada-- i think it was the queens highway route(?) ---had to go to new york--and every one was a little crazy. i think that is excusable under the circumstances.

[Janos]

Most fast food places where I'm at stay open 24 hours, as well as most of the grocery stores around here. No 24 hour Walmarts that I know of, but if you live in the city and go to Walmart, you're pretty much a redneck.

The Westminister Wal-Mart is 24 hours, as is the one off the 5 at Euclid. But most of them around here aren't.

[Freedom Canadian]

NO ELECTRIC DRYERS IN OZ

OMG !

Are they forbidden or do people just not use them and so they are hard to find ? :eek:


A quick note on the price and availability of booze. The sale is regulated by the individual states. Illinois has the lowest price of any state I know of.

I know where I'm going back to next year. :love:


I have been to Canada a few times and the difference I noticed is that the Canadian really are more polite then Americans.

I don't know, everybody seemed pretty nice down there too. Also, I'm guessing you weren't in Québec. ;)



This was most apparent when I was in Canada with a group of drunken young lawyers. The waiter at an upscale restaurant was very polite, even when he found himself in the middle of a food fight. I could tell that he wanted to let loose a diatribe of obscenity at us but being Canadian, all he said was “Please stop”

Neat. :)


On the Walmart/booze thing - not all Walmarts in North Carolina are open 24 hrs (I only know of one that is), and liquor is only sold in what amount to state-licensed franchises known as ABC stores, AKA "the package store." Fortunately, they haven't taken the beer and wine away from the grocery stores and corner markets and thus avoid riots.

Oh, so it's pretty much like here then. Well, I bet vodka is cheaper, but otherwise...

i live in michigan F.C. so things arnt all that different--but i have noticed a few things--your coffee is way stronger, the stores etc tend to be cleaner, and people over all tend to be cleaner & more polite. only "difficulty " i even had was right after 9-11 driving across canada-- i think it was the queens highway route(?) ---had to go to new york--and every one was a little crazy. i think that is excusable under the circumstances.

Interesting. I think it was the 401 highway I was talking about earlier. People are just insane on that road. :)



The Westminister Wal-Mart is 24 hours, as is the one off the 5 at Euclid. But most of them around here aren't.

Only a redneck would know this ! ;)

[Hatter]

Hell, I get culture shock just going to Houston.

"There's how many restaurants on your block? Do kitchens even come standard in apartments here?"

[Janos]

Only a redneck would know this ! ;)

Cut to the quick by that sharp Canadian wit! :p

[NGRI]

Hell, I get culture shock just going to Houston.

"There's how many restaurants on your block? Do kitchens even come standard in apartments here?"

Houston has culture?

[Black Angel]

NO ELECTRIC DRYERS IN OZ
OMG !

Are they forbidden or do people just not use them and so they are hard to find ? :eek:


We have them (or at least some people do - we don't personally), it's just that we also have sunlight, which dries clothes without the need to screw up our environment. Our washing lines are generally a lot better to compensate (I say generally here, because I'm sure someone will have a story where their's isn't!).

[Northcott]

Oh. That doesn't scare me. I don't like it, but I'm used to it and in all, it's a minor (if costly in the case of vodka) inconvenience.

I rather like that. :) The LCBO raises about a billion dollars a year, providing a nice little bit of tax relief.

Well... in a roundabout way. For those of us who don't drink regularly. ;) When Harris was talking about privatizing the LCBO I could only shake my head. The merits of it are debateable, with some solid 'pro' points, but the debacle of how they chose to privatize hydro was monstrous. Golden parachutes for all his best friends!


The biggest difference I noticed going down to the US was disparity of wealth/lifestyle. The 'middle class' seems a bit broader here, and the poor areas in Canada aren't nearly so bad. I've spent time around some of the less reputable neighbourhoods around here, and didn't expect to encounter culture shock in the USA, but man, was it ever there.

There's an underlying tension in the poorer areas that we lack here. Or rather, it's here, but it's dialed up to the Nth degree in the poorer areas of Chicago, NY, etc. And I noticed a distinct difference in the value assigned skin colour as well. Both elements freaked me out a bit when I first encountered them, and I like to flatter myself by thinking I'm not all that easily freaked out.

[Hatter]

We have them (or at least some people do - we don't personally), it's just that we also have sunlight, which dries clothes without the need to screw up our environment. Our washing lines are generally a lot better to compensate (I say generally here, because I'm sure someone will have a story where their's isn't!).

What do you do in the winter time?

[SHARK]

I rather like that. :) The LCBO raises about a billion dollars a year, providing a nice little bit of tax relief.

Well... in a roundabout way. For those of us who don't drink regularly. ;) When Harris was talking about privatizing the LCBO I could only shake my head. The merits of it are debateable, with some solid 'pro' points, but the debacle of how they chose to privatize hydro was monstrous. Golden parachutes for all his best friends!


The biggest difference I noticed going down to the US was disparity of wealth/lifestyle. The 'middle class' seems a bit broader here, and the poor areas in Canada aren't nearly so bad. I've spent time around some of the less reputable neighbourhoods around here, and didn't expect to encounter culture shock in the USA, but man, was it ever there.

There's an underlying tension in the poorer areas that we lack here. Or rather, it's here, but it's dialed up to the Nth degree in the poorer areas of Chicago, NY, etc. And I noticed a distinct difference in the value assigned skin colour as well. Both elements freaked me out a bit when I first encountered them, and I like to flatter myself by thinking I'm not all that easily freaked out.

Greetings!

Northcott, I'm not being snarky with you at all. But your observations reminded me of the "mantra" I've heard with a lot of professors, and *liberals* in particular--(Not saying you're going on some political monologue)--but that it is this:

They whine and complain and compare America's racial attitudes/poverty/economy to little sweet fucking countries like Sweden, or Denmark, or Belgium.....or *Canada*:D

See, though, this is the thing: All of these little countries are vastly smaller in geographical size--if not also by population; (one or the other, or both; Canada having more miles); However, none of these countries have the same degree of cultural, religious and ethnic mixing as we do; they do not have the history, or the particular cultural/geographical expansions--and the key role those things played in American political, economic, and social development.

It makes me think of a better comparison, really, are ancient, huge, diverse nations like India, China, and Russia.

When you take a close look at *THESE* nations....well, they tend to look a lot like America in the same regard to integrating numerous religions, ethnic and racial groups, possession of ghettos, and ancient or long-standing ethnic hatreds and steroetypes.

What do you think about that?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Pigs in Space]

What do you do in the winter time?

Well, it's like 65 degrees in the winter time, and it sort of occasionally rains, so you just leave your clothes out for a few more hours.

[ColonelHardisson]

I moved from Ohio to California, and the traffic in California blew my mind for quite a while before I got used to it. People generally drive faster, but the real difference is in how reckless California drivers are, comparatively speaking. Sudden and unexpected lane changes, turn signals rarely used, and a general lack of road courtesy are the most glaring differences that I've found. That, and the way motorcycles apparently can ride wherever they want on the highway. L.A., true to the stereotype, can be a fucking nightmare to drive in or through. I've driven in Manhattan, and it was a peaceful country road compared to L.A.

There are also no drive-through beverage stores here in California. We had 'em in Ohio.

[Northcott]

Heya, Shark!

Thanks for prefacing with the note about being snark-free, BTW. Nice touch. :)


What do you think about that?


Here's what I think...

See, though, this is the thing: All of these little countries are vastly smaller in geographical size--if not also by population; (one or the other, or both; Canada having more miles)

Yep, we're bigger, with about 1/10th the population. This has certain advantages, but it's also got the considerable disadvantage of having to take distance into account when providing services. There's a balance in there, somewhere, I think.

However, none of these countries have the same degree of cultural, religious and ethnic mixing as we do; they do not have the history, or the particular cultural/geographical expansions--and the key role those things played in American political, economic, and social development.

You're right in that we certainly have a very different history, but you're off the mark on the notion of religious and ethnic diversity. Particularly in cities like Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver, where multi-culturalism has become a point of pride. Racism and poverty certainly exist up here, but having lived with the poorest of the poor, the vibe of poverty up here is a vastly different thing.

I spent two years living on a native reserve up here, where the conditions were shit. Reserves are regularly cited as some of the worst places to live in Canada. Didn't get anywhere near the conditions that kids from the Bronx were living in when we took them up north for 10 days at a camp for underprivledged kids.

Racial tensions were high on the Rez, higher than they were even in the Jane & Finch area in Toronto (that city's worst neighbourhood), but that still didn't match times I've visited Chicago, or even NYC. Or when I was down in Tennessee as a teenager and discovered that segregation wasn't entirely dead: my cousin and I drew an awful lot of open staring as the only two white people in Burger King, while our parents ate in the all-white restaurant across the street. Or when we were grabbing groceries at a mall, only to have a patient black man stop and explain to us that white folks just didn't come to that particular place.

Maybe the south has changed dramatically -- it's been twenty years since that experience. But my last trip to Chicago was only a couple years back.

It makes me think of a better comparison, really, are ancient, huge, diverse nations like India, China, and Russia.

Man... I'd disagree entirely with that. I'd say put them in their own class. For one, you've got the oldest civilization in the world lumped in there. The USA is an infant compared to them. India's got some age issues as well. Then, if you're judging based on population? They are to the USA what the USA is to Canada.

Lastly... man, would you want to be compared to them? India had forced sterilization programs for "undesirable" citizens just a few decades back! And we all know about China's human rights record.

Who better to compare to than a neighbour with a similar economy and similar cultural values?

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, excellent points, Northcott. But I've always wondered, when comparing things like this--as nebulous as they can be--while none the less real experiences--like you said, the *poverty* isn't the same in Canada as it was in the Chicago, NY, etc.

Of course, though, it makes me wonder, well, yeah--but WHY is it so different? I can say there are some similar differences between regions or states in the US--as to why? Hmmm...well, the best guess I can come up with is a combination of social consciousness and cultural attitudes that are ingrained at the local level.

Bottom line: Those folks over "There" just think differently, they don't see the "problem" the same way "we" do; and thus, not only is their solution different, but the road they take to address the issue is distinctly different.

Does that make any sense?

I mean, take another example: Canada has less violent crime. Well, why is that? Partly due to strict gun control laws--but also just bottom-line cultural differences. Americans LOVE guns; we LOVE independence, (as to not having the government tell us what to do) our attitudes about what the government are radically different than what I have seen from most Europeans--and watered down to Canada. And, well, I think also that because of the huge forces of economics, ethnicities, and competition, all of that combines to make Americans more violent--especially when you look at the quickness that the average unwashed masses of criminals view life in general. For fuck's sake, I've met people that have seen people--other men, for example--stomped and beaten to death in the street because they *looked* at someone "wrong". That right there is a huge cognitive dissonance with how I view life, and yet, inside of an hour's drive, I can have you sitting in an environment where everyone around you thinks just like that. *shrugs*

Fucked up, though, I know.

But I think these kind of deep cultural, economic, ethnic, and educational issues--occasionally combined with religious issues--makes for an entirely different world-view for whole regions of people.

I can't say I have any particularly brilliant *solution* for it, but it's interesting to see and learn about the differences, still.

And yeah, here in California, it's all about *speed* baby!:D We all drive like fucking Mario Andretti at the Brickyard 500 here. Fucking freeways are always crazy here!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Freedom Canadian]

I rather like that. :) The LCBO raises about a billion dollars a year, providing a nice little bit of tax relief.

You know, there are studies (done by the like of the Fraser Institute, admitedly) that indicate that Québec and Ontario could switch their liquor boards to a private model and lower prices while still generating equivalent revenue for the government.

Lately, this debate came up in QC and the government admitted that it was true, but that this would result in people drinking more alcohol and the government didn't want that so it wasn't going to happen.



The biggest difference I noticed going down to the US was disparity of wealth/lifestyle. The 'middle class' seems a bit broader here, and the poor areas in Canada aren't nearly so bad. I've spent time around some of the less reputable neighbourhoods around here, and didn't expect to encounter culture shock in the USA, but man, was it ever there.

There's an underlying tension in the poorer areas that we lack here. Or rather, it's here, but it's dialed up to the Nth degree in the poorer areas of Chicago, NY, etc.

Okay, I admit I haven't spent much (any) time in poorer areas. Well, rural Illinois didn't seem very rich, but at the same time, the cost of living is soooo low. The people over there seemed to live well enough, I thought.

IOW, this might be in large part a problem caused by large cities. Also, the social net is thinner of course. Socialism isn't 100% bad, after all. :)


vastly smaller in geographical size--if not also by population; (one or the other, or both; Canada having more miles);

Just a small comment here. While it is true that Canada is larger than the US in terms of territory, if you look at *inhabited* territory, it is smaller than the US. Our populated areas are not much less densely populated, IOW.

[Northcott]

You know, there are studies (done by the like of the Fraser Institute, admitedly) that indicate that Québec and Ontario could switch their liquor boards to a private model and lower prices while still generating equivalent revenue for the government.

Everything from the Fraser Institute makes me twitch. They've championed so many blatantly partisan ideas on the past that they've lost pretty much all credibility with me. Anytime that somebody claims you can have your cake and eat it, too... I get suspicious.

And yeah, I know you recognize what they are. I'm just sayin'.

IOW, this might be in large part a problem caused by large cities. Also, the social net is thinner of course. Socialism isn't 100% bad, after all. :)

My guess was that the disparity issue was chiefly urban, yeah. I didn't spend much time in rural or suburban areas, and the feedback I've heard on those experiences doesn't jive with what I saw, so location seemed to be the most logical seperating point.

[Northcott]

Bottom line: Those folks over "There" just think differently, they don't see the "problem" the same way "we" do; and thus, not only is their solution different, but the road they take to address the issue is distinctly different.

Does that make any sense?

Makes perfect sense. There's an undercurrent of ephemeral nature that's impossible to entirely define; it brings about shifts in attitudes that, in a time and place, seem like common sense, and make it difficult to make the leap in perception that leads to the other worldview -- no matter how many similarities are shared.

The issue of guns stands out as a clear example: in a poll sometime back, I read that the number of US citizens who support the idea of owning automatic weapons was somewhere in the 40th percentile. I'd be genuinely shocked if an answer to a similar question in Canada were to stray much above single digits.

If we look at the populations of metropolitan Toronto and Chicago, we see a difference of a factor of 10 in the number of murder by firearms in a given year.

Yet our cultures are so alike as to be indistinguishable when people (who don't know any bloody better) from other nations deal with us.

I mean, take another example: Canada has less violent crime. Well, why is that? Partly due to strict gun control laws--but also just bottom-line cultural differences. Americans LOVE guns; we LOVE independence, (as to not having the government tell us what to do) our attitudes about what the government are radically different than what I have seen from most Europeans--and watered down to Canada. And, well, I think also that because of the huge forces of economics, ethnicities, and competition, all of that combines to make Americans more violent--especially when you look at the quickness that the average unwashed masses of criminals view life in general. For fuck's sake, I've met people that have seen people--other men, for example--stomped and beaten to death in the street because they *looked* at someone "wrong". That right there is a huge cognitive dissonance with how I view life, and yet, inside of an hour's drive, I can have you sitting in an environment where everyone around you thinks just like that. *shrugs*

Fucked up, though, I know.

Yeah, I completely get that and agree. We can point at all the differences we want, but actually finding the root cause of these shifts is next to impossible. I think another aspect of it is that negativity is like a virus: negative thinking spreads far more easily than positive. I guess this shouldn't be a surprise: It's easier to kill a man than heal him. A master can spend months or even years of his life crafting a work of art in stained glass, and some jackass with a rock can ruin it with a thoughtless moment.

When I speak of issues dealing with skin colour, it is not with the intent of claiming that racism is absent in my own nation. Far from. When I lived on the Rez I was witness to just how much the natives in that area distrusted whites, presumed that all blacks were rapists and thieves, all Jews would rip you off, etc. The levels of alcoholism and child neglect were unbelievable -- I'd never seen a place like it before, and so when they'd go into town they were given odd looks by the whites, always. My wife had some native friends, people who had gotten their lives on track, and she talked about how differently she was treated when she was with them as opposed to being in town with me or on her own.

So the problem's certainly here. It was simply of a more low-key nature and a different flavour -- but that's changing. Certain black activist groups, those with racist agendas, are now running into problems crossing the border to get up here. This is a good thing, in my opinion, but watching the ignorant outrage by a small sub-sect of racists in reaction to this is appalling. Youth ignorant of their own history -- of the fact that they were not standing too far from places of central importance to the "underground railroad" -- were busy hollering about how oppressed they are because they weren't allowed to promote the idea of a racist agenda or a Jewish conspiracy.

Sometimes I despair at the rank idiocy born of selfishness prevalent in society.

[Ancalagon]

I think that the American and Canadian way of living is very close. The real differences are in world view.

[Darth Flatulent]

Those radar speed detectors don't give tickets (that I'm aware of). The only cameras that give tickets are the ones that monitor if you run through a red light. I could be wrong on this, but that's how it is here in So. Cal.


The cameras actually do generate tickets here. Illinois also uses small planes and helicopters to run radar on the interstates. I know people who have been caught that way. The toll plazas also use cameras to catch violators, but I was recently revealed that the toll authority doesn't always sent the fines out.

[Dr. Cherry Gunn]

Driving is absolutely a local thing, one place worse than the other is completely subjective. Other than Houston, I find driving in Texas to be quite relaxing, compared to NoCal, SoCal, and Chicago. Everyone always complains about non-local drivers, and accepts the local asshattery as normal driving conditions.

[Northcott]

I don't know about subjective -- I think Torontonians cross the line. They tailgate relentlessly, and the police there have had to take measures to keep self-important assholes from chasing emergency vehicles through intersections. Pricks will actually tailgate an ambulance or firetruck just to run a red!

[Freedom Canadian]

I don't know about subjective -- I think Torontonians cross the line. They tailgate relentlessly, and the police there have had to take measures to keep self-important assholes from chasing emergency vehicles through intersections. Pricks will actually tailgate an ambulance or firetruck just to run a red!

Wow. Even in Montreal, I've never seen anything like this. Up to three cars going through right after a light turns right, often, but not this. :)

[Northcott]

Wow. Even in Montreal, I've never seen anything like this. Up to three cars going through right after a light turns right, often, but not this. :)


From what I've seen, most of the reputation that Ontario gets painted with in terms of attitude in fact belongs to Toronto. How the Hell that city developed such a sense of self-importance is beyond me. Some great sights, and some great people who live there, but as a whole... what a bloody mess of entitlement. People are miserable on the subway, everybody's in a rush on the streets, the smog turns the air yellowish on bad days -- Yuck.

I'd love to say it's just me being the cranky guy who prefers small town living, but the experience is near unanimous among the people I know who have to go to Toronto on a regular basis. It's become disturbingly like NYC with a lower crime rate and more sprawl.

[Freedom Canadian]

Actually, most people here think Ontarians drive slowly and carefully. This is certainly more true of rural folks than those who drive near Toronto. :D

[Northcott]

Actually, most people here think Ontarians drive slowly and carefully. This is certainly more true of rural folks than those who drive near Toronto. :D


My bad. I was referring to the "They think they're the centre of the universe" attitude that Ontario's often labelled with. That's pretty much just Toronto. The implicit attidue seems to be that Toronto is Ontario... and that's from a Torontonian perspective. ;)

[Limper]

I think that the American and Canadian way of living is very close. The real differences are in world view.

So what is the Canadian world view?

[Freedom Canadian]

So what is the Canadian world view?

The Canadian world view is centered around the fact that the US sucks. :D

[cnath.rm]

The Canadian world view is centered around the fact that the US sucks. :DI'm told that was (more or less) what I'm told the class on canada at Michigan State boiled down to.

[there_is_no_bob]

The Canadian world view is centered around the fact that the US sucks. :D

For a slightly more serious answer (though that one is pretty accurate, sadly), I think it can be best seen by comparing "peace, order and good government" with "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

The focus on the many vs the focus on the individual; since we see the many as being (somewhat) paramount, an ideology that views the individual as the focus must then suck. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket.

But that's just the thought that's kicking around my head at the moment. I may think differently tomorrow.

...But I won't tell you if I do, 'cause that seemed pretty coherent and sensical. And whatever gibberish I come up with later will be less so.

[Harry]

So what is the Canadian world view?

:moose:

[Northcott]

The simplistic US-phobic sentiment tends to bubble up during key times: like when the Marines flew our flag upside down, or when the US women's hockey team used our flag as a floor mat in their dressing room. Or on a less important note than hockey, when we get royally fucked from trade agreements with the US. The current administration has been particularly bad for that.

Under Clinton and George Sr., relations were pretty amicable and we were made to feel that trade disputes were being taken seriously -- so there was still grumbling, but it was pretty subdued. The current antipathy is geared chiefly toward, and generated by, the sitting administration in the White House.

[there_is_no_bob]

Under Clinton and George Sr., relations were pretty amicable and we were made to feel that trade disputes were being taken seriously -- so there was still grumbling, but it was pretty subdued. The current antipathy is geared chiefly toward, and generated by, the shitting administration in the White House.This is how I read this.

And I'm not pointing out the difference! Ha-HA!

[PWD]

:moose:

A building I have worked in is visible in that photo.

[Northcott]

This is how I read this.

And I'm not pointing out the difference! Ha-HA!

It works that way, too. :D

[Ancalagon]

For a slightly more serious answer (though that one is pretty accurate, sadly), I think it can be best seen by comparing "peace, order and good government" with "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

The focus on the many vs the focus on the individual; since we see the many as being (somewhat) paramount, an ideology that views the individual as the focus must then suck. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket.

But that's just the thought that's kicking around my head at the moment. I may think differently tomorrow.

...But I won't tell you if I do, 'cause that seemed pretty coherent and sensical. And whatever gibberish I come up with later will be less so.

And yet strangely enough, Canadians are much more tolerant of differences and liberal in tendencies. Homosexuality is accepted, abortion is mostly a past debate, religion is for most a private matter etc.

[cnath.rm]

And yet strangely enough, Canadians are much more tolerant of differences and liberal in tendencies. Homosexuality is accepted, abortion is mostly a past debate, religion is for most a private matter etc.and if you can make a case for it being a religious requirement, you can be allowed to bring knives to school with you... :p

[Northcott]

and if you can make a case for it being a religious requirement, you can be allowed to bring knives to school with you... :p

Yes. One of the ways in which our tolerance has crossed the line, imho.

[Ancalagon]

Yes. One of the ways in which our tolerance has crossed the line, imho.

I have not heard of *one* incident where those knives were used for ill. If it does, we'll say "sorry, but you folks have shown you can't be trusted with them".

Ancalagon

[Northcott]

I have not heard of *one* incident where those knives were used for ill. If it does, we'll say "sorry, but you folks have shown you can't be trusted with them".

Ancalagon

I have a very different opinion about the ability of our society to stand up for what's right once we've decided that it's "polite" to keep our mouths shut. For many, the kirpan is a holy symbol that they would not dream of defiling. For others, it's a convenient excuse. The kirpan also has no limitations on length: swords are also marked as such, and (iirc), after a brutal home invasion in which an elderly woman and a couple of young teens were intimidated, given death threats, and their home torn apart, the Sihks involved tried to use religious rights to worm their way out of it. I do remember, quite clearly, that they tried to use their religious standing to fight against the court order forbidding them from keeping any weapons in their residence -- including their kirpans.

Needless to say, that one was challenged. Don't want to trod on the religious rights of people who issue death threats to old women, after all. I don't believe it's hit the higher courts yet.

Hyperbole and sleep-deprived fun aside: I object to the idea that some will pass off functional weapons as religious iconography and use the shield of religious rights to bear them in situations where all other people are denied the privledge, responsibility, or right. Rather than a matter of discrimination, it's a matter of creating a special status for the few.

Those Sikhs who wear a symbolic kirpan, that is dulled and little more than costume jewellery, I have no beef with.

[Freedom Canadian]

Those Sikhs who wear a symbolic kirpan, that is dulled and little more than costume jewellery, I have no beef with.

Yeah, the existence of that thing kinda put a big gaping hole in the religious freedom defense.

[there_is_no_bob]

And yet strangely enough, Canadians are much more tolerant of differences and liberal in tendencies. Homosexuality is accepted, abortion is mostly a past debate, religion is for most a private matter etc.
Because the group is secure, we don't need to worry about the outliers.

We're a group who may look at the guys way off there as a little odd but they can't threaten the majority and we know it, on account of having a belief in the primacy of the group.



...Fuck me, that was just silly. It kind of makes sense, though. I hate cover letters.

[Dr. Cherry Gunn]

I can't imagine letting some little shits carry weapons in schools here. That creates a power imbalance that's not good for anyone.

[cnath.rm]

I can't imagine letting some little shits carry weapons in schools here. That creates a power imbalance that's not good for anyone.But their religion demands that they carry them Dr, you wouldn't want to go against their religion would you?

[Northcott]

Their religion has some very noble principles. But, like all religions, there are some serious dickheads hiding among the crowd. Funny thing is that one of the (core?) tennets of the Sihk faith is, iirc, equality among all people. I believe that's where the conformity of last names comes from. Yet we've got a situation where some are demanding rights beyond those of others.

I don't think enough effort was made to find a middle ground.

[Ancalagon]

I have a very different opinion about the ability of our society to stand up for what's right once we've decided that it's "polite" to keep our mouths shut. For many, the kirpan is a holy symbol that they would not dream of defiling. For others, it's a convenient excuse. The kirpan also has no limitations on length: swords are also marked as such, and (iirc), after a brutal home invasion in which an elderly woman and a couple of young teens were intimidated, given death threats, and their home torn apart, the Sihks involved tried to use religious rights to worm their way out of it. I do remember, quite clearly, that they tried to use their religious standing to fight against the court order forbidding them from keeping any weapons in their residence -- including their kirpans.

Needless to say, that one was challenged. Don't want to trod on the religious rights of people who issue death threats to old women, after all. I don't believe it's hit the higher courts yet.

Hyperbole and sleep-deprived fun aside: I object to the idea that some will pass off functional weapons as religious iconography and use the shield of religious rights to bear them in situations where all other people are denied the privledge, responsibility, or right. Rather than a matter of discrimination, it's a matter of creating a special status for the few.

Those Sikhs who wear a symbolic kirpan, that is dulled and little more than costume jewellery, I have no beef with.

This is a bit different though - the Sikhs criminals who did this were obviously carrying weapons, but anyone could have been carrying weapons in those circumstances.

It's not a "weapons are not allowed here but an exemptions for you can be made and we trust you won't make trouble" situation, it's a "people have proven themselves to be criminals and want to keep their weapons after making trouble already". The two just aren't the same.

[Northcott]

This is a bit different though - the Sikhs criminals who did this were obviously carrying weapons, but anyone could have been carrying weapons in those circumstances.

It's not a "weapons are not allowed here but an exemptions for you can be made and we trust you won't make trouble" situation, it's a "people have proven themselves to be criminals and want to keep their weapons after making trouble already". The two just aren't the same.

Tell me, Anc: since equal standing for all people is apparently an integral part of the Sikh belief structure, why should there be such a furor over equal standing being enforced? Why should exemptions be made if all men truly are equals?

It comes down to this: knives are not allowed in schools. Kids have had things as foolishly trivial as nail clippers taken from them. Given that there are alternatives to the kirpan which do not make effective weapons, what is the justification for putting a weapon into an environment where such is specifically not allowed?

Given that all faiths have widely variant behaviours among their members, and that you personally would strenuously object to somebody giving a blanket statement of negative impact about a faith based on the rotten behaviour of a few; why would you make the reverse error, and presume that all of a given faith are of sufficient moral standing to completely remove this problem?

This process of exemption would seem to conflict with their own theology as much as it does the law.