How big is that barony?

[EhtoZed]

So I've been working on a campaign set in medieval europe. Slowly I've been gathering information and resources. I've got A Magical Medieval Society (great book, lot's of information but not as many details as I'd have liked) and Harnmanor (very good, not a lot of background info but a very detailed manor generation system), so I have a pretty good idea of how large single holding might be.

However, I'm having a hard time figuring out how large various counties and baronies might me. I've used as a starting point some of the counties/shires in England and come up with a minimum size of 400-500 sq miles. Unfortunately, using D&Ds overland movement rates it would only take a little more than a day to walk from one end to the other. So, either my measurements are a little off, or D&D movement doesn't work right. Can anyone help me out in answering this?

[Northcott]

IIRC, people walk at a pace of around 4 mph, with some variances, of course. What does D&D have the movement rate at?

You can also drastically slow down movement by throwing in natural obstacles.

[FeatsofClay]

Perchance you aren't using the whole movement rate chart. Part of travel should be impassable bridges, the slowing going uphill or being stopped at a hamlet gate, this kind of thing.

But, realistically, that is how big things were. Folks used to do that kind of walking all the time.

[EhtoZed]

IIRC, people walk at a pace of around 4 mph, with some variances, of course. What does D&D have the movement rate at?

You can also drastically slow down movement by throwing in natural obstacles.
Well, for one hour with a 30ft movement you can go 3 miles. It's 1 mile per 10ft movement. So for an 8 hour day of walking you can get 24 miles.

On the one hand, I can see how you wouldn't want to space your reach out too much as a Baron. If someone attacks your east side and you're on the west side you want to be able to get to the trouble spot as quickly as possible.

I guess it also makes since when you think in modern terms. If I travel 8 hours in a car, when I get there I feel I've gone a long way.

[Northcott]

Well, for one hour with a 30ft movement you can go 3 miles. It's 1 mile per 10ft movement. So for an 8 hour day of walking you can get 24 miles.

On the one hand, I can see how you wouldn't want to space your reach out too much as a Baron. If someone attacks your east side and you're on the west side you want to be able to get to the trouble spot as quickly as possible.

I guess it also makes since when you think in modern terms. If I travel 8 hours in a car, when I get there I feel I've gone a long way.

Plus marching 8 hours straight is a bitch. Combat and/or distractions will slow that down drastically. Presume a couple "time outs" unless it's a forced march.

And Alisho makes a good point -- that is how things were sized. To add to the pain in the ass of it, a Baron's holdings weren't always in one spot. Yes, he'd have loved it to be so because it would consolidate his power, but that's precisely why several English kings prevented it from happening by assigning holdings that were, at times, on opposite ends of the country. It makes these people look powerful to say that they're Baron Egotrip, and their barony contains no less than fifteen manors... but those manors may be scattered across the realm with only two or three near each other.

William the Conqueror started this trend. He knew that his Norman nobles were dangerously ambitious. By giving them ample reward, they felt they were being given their proper due in serving him. By spreading them out, he prevented them from consolidating their power to be used against him, leaving them wrestling with local issues and uprisings on their own. Not to mention little skirmishes and rivalries with each other.

[FeatsofClay]

All counties in Kentucky are sized so that a man could leave home, ride to the county seat, cunduct business and get home in one day. On horseback.

I think that has been kind of a universl standard in a lot fo places. 1 day round trip on the common mans mode of travel.

[EhtoZed]

All counties in Kentucky are sized so that a man could leave home, ride to the county seat, cunduct business and get home in one day. On horseback.

I think that has been kind of a universl standard in a lot fo places. 1 day round trip on the common mans mode of travel.That works out pretty well then with D&Ds movement rates. A man walking can cover 24 miles (3 miles an hour). Now that's assuming an 8 hour day of walking, if we take out an hour or two for business and take half the distance that would be about 10 miles away. That would give the barony about a 20 miles radius. Which looks about average. Cool.


And Alisho makes a good point -- that is how things were sized. To add to the pain in the ass of it, a Baron's holdings weren't always in one spot. Yes, he'd have loved it to be so because it would consolidate his power, but that's precisely why several English kings prevented it from happening by assigning holdings that were, at times, on opposite ends of the country. It makes these people look powerful to say that they're Baron Egotrip, and their barony contains no less than fifteen manors... but those manors may be scattered across the realm with only two or three near each other.That's probably something I'll avoid since I can't figure out how it would work.

Say you're Count Chocula of Chocolate County. You have a number of manor throughout the county but even more in other counties. A lot of other counts/barons and even dukes own land in your county, so what makes you Count of Chocolate county? Why isn't Duke Vanilla, who might own as many manors in Chocolate County as you not Duke of Chocolate County? At what point are you the Landholder-in-charge?

And then you have the problem of summoning the military. If a good portion of the knights in the county owe fealty to other Lords how do you get them to fight with you when you need to defend the county?

[FeatsofClay]

That's probably something I'll avoid since I can't figure out how it would work.

Say you're Count Chocula of Chocolate County. You have a number of manor throughout the county but even more in other counties. A lot of other counts/barons and even dukes own land in your county, so what makes you Count of Chocolate county? Why isn't Duke Vanilla, who might own as many manors in Chocolate County as you not Duke of Chocolate County? At what point are you the Landholder-in-charge?

And then you have the problem of summoning the military. If a good portion of the knights in the county owe fealty to other Lords how do you get them to fight with you when you need to defend the county?

Precisely! That is why they were "treated" this way. :)

[Jayhawk]

It's not only a feudal system, but a futile one as well.;)

And Viscount Vanilla sounds better. Just sayin'.

[Northcott]

That works out pretty well then with D&Ds movement rates. A man walking can cover 24 miles (3 miles an hour). Now that's assuming an 8 hour day of walking, if we take out an hour or two for business and take half the distance that would be about 10 miles away. That would give the barony about a 20 miles radius. Which looks about average. Cool.


That's probably something I'll avoid since I can't figure out how it would work.

Say you're Count Chocula of Chocolate County. You have a number of manor throughout the county but even more in other counties. A lot of other counts/barons and even dukes own land in your county, so what makes you Count of Chocolate county? Why isn't Duke Vanilla, who might own as many manors in Chocolate County as you not Duke of Chocolate County? At what point are you the Landholder-in-charge?

And then you have the problem of summoning the military. If a good portion of the knights in the county owe fealty to other Lords how do you get them to fight with you when you need to defend the county?


Alisho hit the nail on the head. :) Kind of hard to rise up against the king when your resources are scattered and your neighbour will stab you in the back. ;)


As for what makes somebody (using the English example) Earl of Shrewsbury is the fact that he has authority within Shrewsbury. Knights, Barons, and even Dukes may hold land there... Bailiffs for the king may hold land there... but when it comes to matters of court they must answer to the justice of the Earl. Fines to pay? The Earl. Charged of theft? The Earl. Murdered a noble? That's the kings court. Wait in irons until the King can see to the matter... if you're a noble. Otherwise the Earl will probably pop your head off.

It's complicated that not all were held equally. The Earls of English/Welsh border were known as the "Marcher Lords", empowered especially by the king to be able to dole out the crown's high justice, so that they wouldn't have to wait upon the King to take actions necessary to prevent a Welsh invasion. Though their power tended to be more consolidated, there were still manors owned by rival nobles, some very powerful men as well as lowly knights, scattered through those western holdings.