Mutants & Masterminds

[Maddman]

I picked this up at Gen Con from the Green Ronin booth, and am really grooving on this game. I've never been much of a comics guy, but always liked superhero movies and such. And I've heard such wonderful things - here's what I like so far from reading through.

- Only a d20 and a damage save.
- The assumption that everyone will do nonlethal damage most of the time.
- Comparison Checks. Why isn't this d20 standard, to get rid of the problem that Str 4 wizard beats a Str 18 barbarian at arm wrestling because one rolls a 19 and the other rolls a 5? Love it.
- The skill list is a bit shorter than d20 standard. Good.
- Metagame mechanics YAY! Giving heroes hero points when they act like heroes gives me warm fuzzies.
- Using the level not as a scale it is assumed you must climb, but as a general power level for the game. 5 would be just above average, 10 would be good powers, like X-Men, 20 would be Superman. But there's no need to go up in Power Level, you still get more points to buy stuff with PL serving as a cap.

They took the basic d20 mechanic and took out classes, levels, and hit points. Love it.

So how does it play? I like to run by the seat of my pants, like to be able to BS my way through a statblock, and like to keep things spontaneous. This is the only thing that worries me about it - will I be able to throw together an interesting villain with little to no notice? Any tips or tricks on keeping the game running smooth?

[Glass]

I've found it just about perfect for running seat-of-your-pants kinda superhero games. It's up there with Unisystem as one of my favorite systems ever, seriously.

[cnath.rm]

I've found it just about perfect for running seat-of-your-pants kinda superhero games. It's up there with Unisystem as one of my favorite systems ever, seriously.Funny you should mention Unisystem considering who you are talking to... :D

I haven't had a chance to play, but my former DM has a regular game he plays in and loves it.

[Limper]

Funny you should mention Unisystem considering who you are talking to... :D

I haven't had a chance to play, but my former DM has a regular game he plays in and loves it.

Oh Jesus Fuck! I hope that doesn't get him started.

[Maddman]

Oh Jesus Fuck! I hope that doesn't get him started.

You can all eat a dick :p

This thread is for the awesomeness of M&M. If you'd like me to start a thread on the awesomeness of unisystem, I can do that too. And its largely what I play - should I start making fun of everyone who talks about their D&D game?

[Limper]

You can all eat a dick :p

This thread is for the awesomeness of M&M. If you'd like me to start a thread on the awesomeness of unisystem, I can do that too. And its largely what I play - should I start making fun of everyone who talks about their D&D game?

I'd love you to start a thread on it... at CM or HO.

[Maddman]

I'd love you to start a thread on it... at CM or HO.

Or maybe a Stat Limper in Unisystem thread?

Qualities
None

Drawbacks
Dick (3) - everyone hates you.

[Limper]

Or maybe a Stat Limper in Unisystem thread?

Qualities
None

Drawbacks
Dick (3) - everyone hates you.

I miss rep cause that was funny.

[NGRI]

I really like the system in M&M but it does have some drawbacks. Combat can take a very long time especially if players or villains have healing powers. Also lethal and nonlethal damage don’t stack. If the villain, Gargantuass, with a toughness of 13 is struck with hero, Power Balls, nonletahal attack his toughness for nonlethal attacks is reduced to 12. If he is later struck by Ninja Babes lethal katanna his toughness against lethal attacks is reduced to 12. I would like to see Gargantuass' toughness reduced to 11 in this sitaution. The way the rules are now, these 2 heros are wasting their time trying to attack the same villain.

[cnath.rm]

I miss rep cause that was funny.Agreed.

Even without having a chance to play I've been slightly tempted by the Pocket Players Guide for M&M that GR put out. (same with their pocket version of True20)

edit:
The way the rules are now, these 2 heros are wasting their time trying to attack the same villain.That does sound rather annoying, any idea how much of a gamebreaker it would be to houserule it?

[Keeper of Secrets]

M&M is really the best supers game out there. All others before it was a matter of finding the one that sucked the least. This one is really, really great. But as NGRI said, combat is not fast.

Its funny. In the previous edition, lethal DID stack with nonlethal. I never understood why in the second edition it did not. Of course, it is very easy to say it does.

One piece of advice for running a serious campaign:

I ran a campaign that lasted three years and about a year ago started a new one. I found that the players really wanted to play street level heroes in the first campaign. So I made them 8th level. Three years later they were about 16th level and wanted to continue being street level heroes. Just didn't really work. For the second campaign I created an alternate series of rewards based upon a chip system that Scut or Stannis showed me years ago. This works MUCH better in the long run.

[keryn]

I played M&M a few times at GenCon and really loved it. I'm not sure if we can make it work for our gaming group in a long term campaign. We've been a primarily D&D group with a single foray into D20 Modern. Most other things we've tried have been short term.

I'm interested in hearing about anyone's sucesses or failures with M&M...

[Keeper of Secrets]

I played M&M a few times at GenCon and really loved it. I'm not sure if we can make it work for our gaming group in a long term campaign. We've been a primarily D&D group with a single foray into D20 Modern. Most other things we've tried have been short term.

I'm interested in hearing about anyone's sucesses or failures with M&M...

I have a ton of success stories with with. Take a look a some of my previous posts on the matter in this thread.

[shabois]

We have tried a bunch of different Supers systems over the years. M&M is the best overall system. It has the best balance of any system we have played. Combat does take a long time but we do have a large group and it depends on how powerful your heroes and villians are. If you ran a Batman type game with more thugs and less powers, combat would go a lot faster.

[Dacke]

I really like the system in M&M but it does have some drawbacks. Combat can take a very long time especially if players or villains have healing powers. Also lethal and nonlethal damage don’t stack. If the villain, Gargantuass, with a toughness of 13 is struck with hero, Power Balls, nonletahal attack his toughness for nonlethal attacks is reduced to 12. If he is later struck by Ninja Babes lethal katanna his toughness against lethal attacks is reduced to 12. I would like to see Gargantuass' toughness reduced to 11 in this sitaution. The way the rules are now, these 2 heros are wasting their time trying to attack the same villain.
Actually, the system does work. The reason is that a minor failure on a Toughness save vs a lethal attack makes you both bruised and injured, meaning you get -1 Toughness against both lethal and non-lethal attacks.

[keryn]

I have a ton of success stories with with. Take a look a some of my previous posts on the matter in this thread.

I read those...

[SmokestackJones]

Madd, all I can say that it's a great supers system (this coming from a Champions veteran). I know I'm known as a big M&M booster but, frankly, I cannot get in enough gameplay with it to go into detail. From what I have played of it, it rocks.

-SJ

[Keeper of Secrets]

M&M also allows you to do a lot with the powers. The powers - as printed - are pretty basic but you can buy enough extras and feats to make sure that you have a very customizable character, I think. Second edition made it even more possible to create something very detail oriented.

The one thing I have never really tried - for no real reason other than it never occurs to me - is to take existing d20 creatures from the Monster Manual and translate them into d20 stats. Though, with the current M&M campaign I am running I might just get that opportunity soon.

[Glass]

M&M also allows you to do a lot with the powers. The powers - as printed - are pretty basic but you can buy enough extras and feats to make sure that you have a very customizable character, I think. Second edition made it even more possible to create something very detail oriented.

The one thing I have never really tried - for no real reason other than it never occurs to me - is to take existing d20 creatures from the Monster Manual and translate them into d20 stats. Though, with the current M&M campaign I am running I might just get that opportunity soon.
If you do that, would you mind sharing them here? I'd always meant to do that, but never got around to it, and I don't currently have my D&D books up here with me.

[Keeper of Secrets]

Sure thing, mang. I will likely have something to report in the next couple of weeks. Perhaps as early as Saturday.

[Glass]

Sure thing, mang. I will likely have something to report in the next couple of weeks. Perhaps as early as Saturday.
Very nice. Now if only I could get my current group to try out M&M again(they apparently had a really crappy experience with the system and an old GM)...

[Dacke]

M&M also allows you to do a lot with the powers. The powers - as printed - are pretty basic but you can buy enough extras and feats to make sure that you have a very customizable character, I think. Second edition made it even more possible to create something very detail oriented.

One thing I really like (at least on a theoretical level - I haven't played the game) with M&M is the "Alternate Power" thing, which lets you use one power as another power (but only as one thing at a time). Dazzler would be a good example of this. Her primary power is to generate light in various forms. In M&M, this would probably be bought as a "Blast" power, with "Dazzle," "Light Control," "Illusion," and a ranged "Stun" as alternate powers. The way this works is that you start by buying the main power (Blast, in this case), and decide you want her to have a rank 10 blast. This costs 20 points. You then pay another point for the power feat Alternate power: Dazzle (visual). To figure out how good your Dazzle is, you take the points spent on Blast, and apply them to Dazzle instead. Visual Dazzle costs 2 points, so you'd get Dazzle at rank 10 as well. Light Control also costs 2 points per rank, giving her rank 10 in that as well (letting her shed light equal to sunlight in a a 5,000 ft radius). Illusion (visual) also costs 2 points, giving rank 10. Finally, Stun normally costs 2 points as well. However, Stun is a touch power, and Dazzler's Stun works at range. That's a +1 Extra, increasing the cost to 3 per rank. 20 points spent on Blast, divided by 3, becomes a rank 6 Stun.

This would be written as Blast 10 (Alternate powers: Dazzle (visual) 10, Light Control 10, Illusion (visual) 10, Stun (Extras: ranged) 6). The total cost would be 24 points.

I'm sure someone else could go into more detail on Dazzler's particular powers, but this should suffice as an example. Some might think, "Hey, she gets five powers and pays just a little more than for one!" True. However, she can only use one of these powers at a time.

There is an improved version of Alternate Power, called Dynamic Alternate Power, that costs 2 points instead of 1. The difference is that with a dynamic power, you can maintain both powers, but you're still limited to the number of powers you paid for them. An example would be a telekinetic, who would probably buy at least two dynamic alternate powers for his telekinesis: Blast and Force Field. This would let him both blast things with TK zaps and keep up some protection, but he'd have to balance the two against one another.

There is an interesting interaction between Alternate Power and the Extra Effort rules. One of the things you can do with Extra Effort is to apply a power feat you don't normally have to a power for a while (at the cost of either a hero point or being fatigued). Since Alternate Power is a power feat, this models the comics where supers often find themselves in a situation where their normal tactics don't work, and have to use their powers in a different way ("Hey, if I can control the light coming from my body, maybe I could do some hypnotic pattern thing with it?"). Of course, if you find yourself doing this a lot, you should probably just buy the alternate power and be done with it, but it provides a nice vehicle for improvisation.

[Keeper of Secrets]

Absolutely! People love APs. It allows for an inexpensive way to squeeze more variants into the character. However, the GM might want to be careful that someone is not Power Gaming the situation. I have kept a watchful eye on all the APs my players have.

[Schizm]

I'd also recommend setting some house rules around the "impervious" extra for powers that increase the toughness save.

Sure, being someone whom bullets bounce off of is fun, but if the GM has to hit you with a cruise missile in order to damage you, the game just isn't as dangerous, and therefor isn't as dramatic.

[Keeper of Secrets]

I'd also recommend setting some house rules around the "impervious" extra for powers that increase the toughness save.

Sure, being someone whom bullets bounce off of is fun, but if the GM has to hit you with a cruise missile in order to damage you, the game just isn't as dangerous, and therefor isn't as dramatic.

And, sadly, as one of my players discovered, what happens when the cruise missile is there to aim at the impervious guy and the rest of the team is NOT impervious.

[Maddman]

I'm thinking of setting up a one-shot for our group, just to try it out. Any suggestions? I'm not very experienced with superhero RPGs. A standard PL 10 group of heroes, what would be a good villian? PL 15 or so? Anything in paticular to look out for?

[Keeper of Secrets]

I'm thinking of setting up a one-shot for our group, just to try it out. Any suggestions? I'm not very experienced with superhero RPGs. A standard PL 10 group of heroes, what would be a good villian? PL 15 or so? Anything in paticular to look out for?


10th level is good. Assuming you have 4-6 players, 15th is appropriate for the villain. Though you may also want to give him a handfull of minions or underlings to give him support.

Are they role players or heavy combat tactictians?

[Maddman]

Are they role players or heavy combat tactictians?

Roleplayers. Even when we played D&D they relied on me to point out when a certain action would get then an AoO or whatever.

[Hatter]

I had trouble designing a character in the system in 1e which made it hard for me to fall in love with the rules. It's too bad, I'd love to play a supers game, but Hero is a bit intimidating and M&M doesn't seem able to do everything I want it to.

[Keeper of Secrets]

Roleplayers. Even when we played D&D they relied on me to point out when a certain action would get then an AoO or whatever.

Then I would go the Mystery route. Have a scenario where people in the city have been disappearing. The people might be bank officers, hedge fund managers, etc, Have the PCs find them guarded by a dummy villain. Thevictims have been replaced with dopplegangers and reenter society, loyal to their master and begin raiding the financial institutions they were in charge of. Then villain gets tracked down and must be stopped before he makes off with 100's of millions of dollars.

[NGRI]

That is something familiar about that plot. Just one piece of advice, Maddman. Don't have your occultist go into the creepy house in the rundown neighborhood on his own.

[Keeper of Secrets]

That is something familiar about that plot. Just one piece of advice, Maddman. Don't have your occultist go into the creepy house in the rundown neighborhood on his own.

Gold!

[Maddman]

Then I would go the Mystery route. Have a scenario where people in the city have been disappearing. The people might be bank officers, hedge fund managers, etc, Have the PCs find them guarded by a dummy villain. Thevictims have been replaced with dopplegangers and reenter society, loyal to their master and begin raiding the financial institutions they were in charge of. Then villain gets tracked down and must be stopped before he makes off with 100's of millions of dollars.

(Shellbelle, if you're reading this go away)

For my M&M game we're doing a one shot with pregens. What I was thinking was modeling it off a superhero movie rather than a series. So in the game we'll introduce the characters and then have an accident. The PCs are all mutants, though the don't know it yet (and this is a supers-free world). The professor who is running a 'study' has tracked down this extra brain chemical and has been boosting it then extracting it to take himself. Well, there's an accident that blows up the lab, and the doctor is nowhere to be found.

After they recover, their supernatural powers will start to express themselves. They'll be presented with the double mysteries of their own powers as well as the disappearance of their Doctor. As they look into it, they find that the Dr. was tracking their genes several generations back, and there are several other students and people in the area with the same genetic marker. These people have vanished or disappeared. Eventually one of the Dr.'s robot servants comes for them.

The good doctor has been injecting himself with the serum he gathered from the PCs and other students. It boosted his intellect to supernatural levels, but also drove him mad. He's been kidnapping people with the genetic markers and holding them in his lab where he can extract the neurochemical from them. The lab of course is on a deserted island in an underground base with robot servants and lots of goons. They'll have to find the island, make their way to it, get past his guardians, and defeat the doctor and free the other prisoners - who will soon likely develop mutant powers of their own (that'll be in the sequel ;) )

Sound good? Any suggestions?

[Keeper of Secrets]

(Shellbelle, if you're reading this go away)

For my M&M game we're doing a one shot with pregens. What I was thinking was modeling it off a superhero movie rather than a series. So in the game we'll introduce the characters and then have an accident. The PCs are all mutants, though the don't know it yet (and this is a supers-free world). The professor who is running a 'study' has tracked down this extra brain chemical and has been boosting it then extracting it to take himself. Well, there's an accident that blows up the lab, and the doctor is nowhere to be found.

After they recover, their supernatural powers will start to express themselves. They'll be presented with the double mysteries of their own powers as well as the disappearance of their Doctor. As they look into it, they find that the Dr. was tracking their genes several generations back, and there are several other students and people in the area with the same genetic marker. These people have vanished or disappeared. Eventually one of the Dr.'s robot servants comes for them.

The good doctor has been injecting himself with the serum he gathered from the PCs and other students. It boosted his intellect to supernatural levels, but also drove him mad. He's been kidnapping people with the genetic markers and holding them in his lab where he can extract the neurochemical from them. The lab of course is on a deserted island in an underground base with robot servants and lots of goons. They'll have to find the island, make their way to it, get past his guardians, and defeat the doctor and free the other prisoners - who will soon likely develop mutant powers of their own (that'll be in the sequel ;) )

Sound good? Any suggestions?

That does sound good, actually. With regards to the doctor, is he a scientist or a doctor? Is age important? You could introduce something where he has been a doctor in their lives for awhile (or is the head physician at a doctor's office, as their pediatritian, growing up). Basically you could find some way to make him a trusted or hated figure to begin with.

I did something similar once but the doctor was a psychiatrist who was trying to drive these characters crazy (knowing they had powers) so they would be more likely to turn to evil things (which is what the psychiatrist's boss - the big villain - wanted).

[Maddman]

That does sound good, actually. With regards to the doctor, is he a scientist or a doctor? Is age important? You could introduce something where he has been a doctor in their lives for awhile (or is the head physician at a doctor's office, as their pediatritian, growing up). Basically you could find some way to make him a trusted or hated figure to begin with.

I did something similar once but the doctor was a psychiatrist who was trying to drive these characters crazy (knowing they had powers) so they would be more likely to turn to evil things (which is what the psychiatrist's boss - the big villain - wanted).

He's a scientist, genetic engineer. Though maybe I could set it up so that he's like a mentor to them, even that he's the one that 'saved' them from the explosion. And maybe he's not extracting from them anymore because once powers express then the chemical is no longer available. Sure, 'ha, your trusted mentor is actually the villian!' is cliche, but if you don't shy away from it IME players love a good cliche. :)

Perhaps he could be the one that suggests costumes and secret identities for them?

[Keeper of Secrets]

He's a scientist, genetic engineer. Though maybe I could set it up so that he's like a mentor to them, even that he's the one that 'saved' them from the explosion. And maybe he's not extracting from them anymore because once powers express then the chemical is no longer available. Sure, 'ha, your trusted mentor is actually the villian!' is cliche, but if you don't shy away from it IME players love a good cliche. :)

Perhaps he could be the one that suggests costumes and secret identities for them?

I think there is no problem with cliches for (a) one shots, (b) starting the session and (c) introductions to a game. Honestly, you should probably spend more of your time getting to know the rules and not get bogged down with a complex story. The players may get overwhealmed if the story is not cliched at first.

Or make it LOOKED cliche and have it be the scientist's sexy vixen daughter who one of the characters is dating or wants to date.

[GreyOne]

I think it's an overrated game. It has some definite pluses but the combat system is unwieldy and time-consuming (unless I assume you really know it and have practised with it).

[Keeper of Secrets]

I think it's an overrated game. It has some definite pluses but the combat system is unwieldy and time-consuming (unless I assume you really know it and have practised with it).

Is it M&M you think is overrated or the supers genre?

[GreyOne]

Is it M&M you think is overrated or the supers genre?

No, the game. I've just heard it hyped for years and when we played it (a campaign for about 5 months or so) I dreaded combat .

[Keeper of Secrets]

No, the game. I've just heard it hyped for years and when we played it (a campaign for about 5 months or so) I dreaded combat .

Actually, I secretly dislike most games' combat systems, truth be told.

[shabois]

No, the game. I've just heard it hyped for years and when we played it (a campaign for about 5 months or so) I dreaded combat .

Combat goes pretty smooth compared to some games, it can go long but that is because it is a supers game and not designed to kill characters but build a dramatic story. Overhyped or not I still contend it is still the best balanced supers game out there.

[shabois]

(Shellbelle, if you're reading this go away)

For my M&M game we're doing a one shot with pregens. What I was thinking was modeling it off a superhero movie rather than a series. So in the game we'll introduce the characters and then have an accident. The PCs are all mutants, though the don't know it yet (and this is a supers-free world). The professor who is running a 'study' has tracked down this extra brain chemical and has been boosting it then extracting it to take himself. Well, there's an accident that blows up the lab, and the doctor is nowhere to be found.

After they recover, their supernatural powers will start to express themselves. They'll be presented with the double mysteries of their own powers as well as the disappearance of their Doctor. As they look into it, they find that the Dr. was tracking their genes several generations back, and there are several other students and people in the area with the same genetic marker. These people have vanished or disappeared. Eventually one of the Dr.'s robot servants comes for them.

The good doctor has been injecting himself with the serum he gathered from the PCs and other students. It boosted his intellect to supernatural levels, but also drove him mad. He's been kidnapping people with the genetic markers and holding them in his lab where he can extract the neurochemical from them. The lab of course is on a deserted island in an underground base with robot servants and lots of goons. They'll have to find the island, make their way to it, get past his guardians, and defeat the doctor and free the other prisoners - who will soon likely develop mutant powers of their own (that'll be in the sequel ;) )

Sound good? Any suggestions?

I have found he more personal the connection the characters have with the villains the better the story. It may be contrived at the beginning of the game but with experienced players it van help with motivation and building the levels of the story.