I have looked into the eyes of Putin and seen his soul...and he's a dangerous kook.

[The Theocrat of Poon-Tang]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,451426,00.html

Aide to France's Sarkozy Reveals Putin Wanted to Hang Georgian President 'By the ...'
Thursday, November 13, 2008

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AP


Vladimir Putin
Nicolas Sarkozy saved the President of Georgia from a threat by Vladimir Putin to depose him from power and "hang him by the balls," according to an account that emerged today from the Elysée Palace.

The Russian Prime Minister told the French President of his plans for deposing the Tbilisi government and disposing of President Saakashvili when the French leader was in Moscow last August to broker a cease-fire in Georgia.

Jean-David Levitte, Sarkozy's chief diplomatic adviser, reported the exchange in a magazine today ahead of an EU-Russia summit in Nice Friday chaired by the French leader and President Medvedev.

With Russian tanks only 30 miles from Tbilisi on Aug. 12, Sarkozy told Putin that the world would not accept the overthrow of Georgia, Levitte said.

"I am going to hang Saakashvili by the balls," Putin replied.

Sarkozy responded: "Hang him?"

"Why not? The Americans hanged Saddam Hussein," Putin said.

Sarkozy replied, using the familiar "tu": "Yes but do you want to end up like (President) Bush?"

Putin was briefly lost for words, then said: "Ah, you have scored a point there."

President Mikhail Saakashvili, who was in Paris to meet Sarkozy Thursday, laughed nervously when a French radio station read him the exchange. "I knew about this scene, but not all the details. It's funny, all the same," said the Georgian President.

Putin's reported remarks appear to confirm that he was calling the shots in Moscow and not President Medvedev, who was Sarkozy's host at the Kremlin meeting.

[Brynja]

Well it confirms what I already thought- the election in Russia was a sham.

[nerfherder]

Yup - he's a scary, scary man. Russian/UK relations are at a very low point after the assassination of political refugee Alexander Litvinenko in London using radioactive Polonium. The British government have dropped very strong hints that the orders came from the top of the Russian government...

[The Theocrat of Poon-Tang]

Yup - he's a scary, scary man. Russian/UK relations are at a very low point after the assassination of political refugee Alexander Litvinenko in London using radioactive Polonium. The British government have dropped very strong hints that the orders came from the top of the Russian government...

It's also believed Putin ordered a female media member over there killed a few years back. I think it was couched as being a "birthday gift" to him. To think there actually was a time when I respected him, too. Namely during that whole school seige thing.

[Varaj]

It's also believed Putin ordered a female media member over there killed a few years back. I think it was couched as being a "birthday gift" to him. To think there actually was a time when I respected him, too. Namely during that whole school seige thing.

Ok not to be snarky but what does this have to say about Bush's soul gazing? (You brought it up with your title)

[The Theocrat of Poon-Tang]

Ok not to be snarky but what does this have to say about Bush's soul gazing? (You brought it up with your title)

Eh, not so good in retrospect. But in his defense, at the time Putin did seem like an alright guy, if someone to be a bit wary of. Let's put it this way, if I was president, I would have found other words to show my appreciation of the guy at the time.

[Varaj]

Eh, not so good in retrospect. But in his defense, at the time Putin did seem like an alright guy, if someone to be a bit wary of. Let's put it this way, if I was president, I would have found other words to show my appreciation of the guy at the time.

At the time he seemed like a serious threat working hard to bring back the Russian Empire. I seem to recall huge number of Russian experts stunned at Bush's claim he was a good guy.

[Dacke]

Putin seems like a guy who wants what's best for Russia. Almost like he's playing Civilization, but for real. Keeping people happy is something done as a means to an end - a powerful country.

Many other "bad guy" leaders mostly seem to be out for themselves (skimming money from the treasury to put themselves and relatives in opulent palaces and such), but I don't think Putin is. He strikes me as a ruthless nationalist, who would probably give up his own life if it would help the nation, except he sees himself as the only one who can lead the country so it's better to sacrifice someone else.

[The Winslow]

Putin is certainly worthy of respect if you look only at pure scheming skills. The man is intelligent, competent, and ruthless. He's doing all he can to give Russia her status as a world power back. (It had been demoted to "regional power" when the USSR imploded. For a Russian nationalist, that's just an accident in history, and a temporary one.)

Bush's line seemed to be nothing more than butt-kissing.

[Random Encounter]

Putin is like a James Bond villain, except with Russia instead of a volcano for his evil lair.

[Name Lips]

Russia and China are rising while we're distracting ourselves silly in the Middle East. We've grown so obsessed with Terrorism we've forgotten what powerful enemies look like.

[Lmik]

What Saakashvili did in South Ossetia is reminiscent of what Sadam Hussein did in Kuwait in 1990 - as Russia's response was similar to Nato's. The main difference is that Saakashvili spent a lot more on PR and Washington Lobbyists such as Randy Scheunemann - John McCains Foreign Policy adviser and half of the lobbying firm Orion which represented Georgian interests in the US until May.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-11-13/did-mccain-bury-the-truth-about-russia/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/31/russia-georgia

The truth about South Ossetia

After the west heaped blame on Russia for the conflict, it ignores new evidence of Georgia's crimes of aggression. So now they tell us. Two months after the brief but bloody war in the Caucasus which was overwhelmingly blamed on Russia by western politicians and media at the time, a serious investigation by the BBC has uncovered a very different story.

Not only does the report by Tim Whewell – aired this week on Newsnight and on Radio 4's File on Four - find strong evidence confirming western-backed Georgia as the aggressor on the night of August 7. It also assembles powerful testimony of wide-ranging war crimes carried out by the Georgian army in its attack on the contested region of South Ossetia.

They include the targeting of apartment block basements – where civilians were taking refuge – with tank shells and Grad rockets, the indiscriminate bombardment of residential districts and the deliberate killing of civilians, including those fleeing the South Ossetian capital of Tskinvali.
The carefully balanced report – which also details evidence of ethnic cleansing by South Ossetian paramilitaries – cuts the ground from beneath later Georgian claims that its attack on South Ossetia followed the start of a Russian invasion the previous night.

At the time, the Georgian government said its assault on Tskinvali was intended to "restore constitutional order" in an area it has never ruled, as well as to counter South Ossetian paramilitary provocations. Georgian intelligence subsequently claimed to have found the tape of an intercepted phone call backing up its Russian invasion story – but even Georgia's allies balk at a claim transparently intended to bolster its shaky international legal position .

Naturally the man who ordered the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia, president Mikheil Saakashvili, denies the war crimes accusations. But what of his Anglo-American sponsors, who insisted at the time that "Russian aggression must not go unanswered"?

British foreign secretary David Miliband now accepts Georgia was "reckless" and says he treats the war crimes allegations "extremely seriously". US assistant secretary of state, Daniel Fried, meanwhile concedes Georgia's attack on Tskhinvali was "wrong on several levels", but feels that discussion of its war crimes is "not terribly useful".

In the wake of the Georgian attack, Russian troops moved into Georgia proper, destroying Georgian military facilities used to mount the original assault – and inflicting their own civilian casualties in the process, notably in Gori. Earlier this month they pulled back from their Georgian buffer zone into now nominally-independent South Ossetia.

At the start of the August conflict, western media reporting was relatively even-handed, but rapidly switched into full-blown cold war revival mode as Russia turned the tables on the US's Georgian client regime and Nato expansion in the region. Clear initial evidence of who started the war and Georgian troops' killing spree in Tskhinvali was buried or even denied in a highly effective PR operation from Tbilisi.

Within a week, the former Foreign Office special adviser David Clark was for example accusing me on Comment is free of making an "important error of fact" by stating that "several hundreds civilians" had been killed by Georgian forces in Tskhinvali.

I based that on several reports, including in the Observer. Clark insisted there was "no independent support for this claim". But, as reported by the BBC this week, Human Rights Watch now regards the figure of 300-400 civilian dead in Tskhinvali as a "useful starting point".
Meanwhile, with the exception of a small item in the Independent, Whewell's significant new evidence about what actually took place in a conflict likely to have far-reaching strategic consequences has been simply ignored by the rest of the mainstream media.

[Brynja]

Interesting counter point to consider, thank you.

[Varaj]

What Saakashvili did in South Ossetia is reminiscent of what Sadam Hussein did in Kurdish Regions in 1990 - as Russia's response was similar to Nato's. The main difference is that Saakashvili spent a lot more on PR and Washington Lobbyists such as Randy Scheunemann - John McCains Foreign Policy adviser and half of the lobbying firm Orion which represented Georgian interests in the US until May.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-11-13/did-mccain-bury-the-truth-about-russia/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/31/russia-georgia

Fixed it for you to be anywhere close to accurate.

[Lmik]

If you could just provide me with a period when South Ossetia wasn't autonomous from Georgia I would appreciate it.

[Varaj]

If you could just provide me with a period when South Ossetia wasn't autonomous from Georgia I would appreciate it.

:rolleyes:
Please Kuwait was a independent sovereign nation and was never under Iraq.

South Ossetia has been a part of Georgia since 1801, no country recognized their independence (not even Russia) until 2006. South Ossetia didn't even break away until 1992.

Iraqi Kurdistan is a much better comparison since both IK and SO were formed as part of empire growth and given semi-autonomous rule. Kuwait has no comparison.

Plus comparing IK and SO allows you to bring up the chemical weapon use on civilians and compare the various backings of dictators.

[Northcott]

At the time he seemed like a serious threat working hard to bring back the Russian Empire. I seem to recall huge number of Russian experts stunned at Bush's claim he was a good guy.

Yeaaaaahhhhh... that's pretty much what I was thinking. I really can't think of a point in Putin's public political career where he didn't stink to high Heaven of a serious threat. The guy stepped into power from the KGB. Maybe I'm just a little too much a child of Cold War propaganda, but that didn't bode well in my eyes.

[Brynja]

Northcott-

That is actually what some of my AP kids said when he originally took office. I don't think you are off base at all, couple that with Russia's history of brutal leadership- not far fetched.

[Name Lips]

When the USSR broke up, the US and NATO pledged they wouldn't seek to expand NATO, and they explicitly stated they wouldn't seek to make NATO members out of old ex-Soviet states.

In recent years we've been negotiating with Georgia to secure them a place in NATO. Why? Because they asked, and we didn't feel like saying no. And they're an excellently placed ally in the region. And we didn't think Russia would really mind all that much.

But the Russians saw it as a return to aggressive American Imperialist Expansion, and a further attempt (after the missile shield) to reduce the infuence and power of Russia in the region. So they found an excuse and went in. They wanted to show that they could also play the game of agressiveness. They wanted to show that their military was still relevant, that they still had muscles to flex and a say-so about what happens in their backyard. And boy did we get the message, but we didn't see it as a response to our own aggressive expansion, but as an unsolicited power play on their own part.

Let's put it this way. If Putin really wanted to invade Georgia and Ukraine, would we really be able to stop him? We don't want a war with a competant and powerful enemy. We'd have to abandon all of our other military adventures and respond to force with equal force. We couldn't stop them without going into a full-blow European War. So we'd probably stay back and finger-waggle.

[The Winslow]

When the USSR broke up, the US and NATO pledged they wouldn't seek to expand NATO, and they explicitly stated they wouldn't seek to make NATO members out of old ex-Soviet states.

In recent years we've been negotiating with Georgia to secure them a place in NATO. Why? Because they asked, and we didn't feel like saying no. And they're an excellently placed ally in the region. And we didn't think Russia would really mind all that much.

But the Russians saw it as a return to aggressive American Imperialist Expansion, and a further attempt (after the missile shield) to reduce the infuence and power of Russia in the region. So they found an excuse and went in.

That, and it's also their own Balkans. Russia was unfavorable to an intervention against Serbia (an old ally of them), and didn't recognize the Kosovo's claims of sovereignty as legitimate in any way; so they figured that what's good for the goose is good for the gander and did the same against Georgia. The way they see it, South Ossetia is their own Kosovo, and Georgia is the NATO's Serbia.

[Utrecht]

In recent years we've been negotiating with Georgia to secure them a place in NATO. Why? Because they asked, and we didn't feel like saying no. And they're an excellently placed ally in the region. And we didn't think Russia would really mind all that much.

This was a huuuuge factor in why Russia did what the did - the West (mostly Bush) was effectively waving red flags in front of Russia - couple with our complete inability to effectively protect them (hello Chamberlin and your garuntee to Poland) was such bad realpolitik as to be amature.

Never, ever make a garantee to a country that you can not effectively protect - or has minimal strategic value to you.

And because of this episode, other countries are going to look at future Western teaties/garuntees as a joke.

[The Winslow]

And because of this episode, other countries are going to look at future Western teaties/garuntees as a joke.

Well, that's hardly anything new...

[Utrecht]

Well, that's hardly anything new...

Well, it did not stop them from trying to obtain them from us.

[The Theocrat of Poon-Tang]

More Putin wackiness:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,451985,00.html

Russian Lawmakers Approve Presidential Term Extension
Friday, November 14, 2008

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AP


Vladimir Putin
MOSCOW — Russian lawmakers gave preliminary approval Friday for extending presidential terms from four years to six — a move observers say could pave the way for Vladimir Putin to return to the presidency.

The popular Putin, now prime minister, was barred constitutionally from seeking a third straight term as president. His protege, Dmitry Medvedev, resoundingly won the post in March elections.

But analysts speculated Medvedev could resign early, propelling Putin into the role of acting president and triggering elections in which Putin could run and would likely win.

If presidential terms are extended to six years as expected, that could set Putin up for another 12 years in office for a total of 20 years as Kremlin leader including his previous terms.

The lower house of parliament, the State Duma, voted 388-58 to pass the constitutional change Friday in the first of three readings, with opposition coming from the Communist faction. The legislation must also be approved by the upper house of parliament and by a majority of regional legislatures. The Kremlin-backed United Russia party dominates all of the legislative bodies.

Ultranationalist Vladimir Zhirinovsky voiced support for the measure, saying it would bring Russia "into conformity" with other nations, such as France, where the president serves for six years.

But he suggested legislators were failing to think for themselves, and instead were rubber-stamping Kremlin legislation. "The only thing that makes me upset is that had the president offered to cut the term to three years, we would have applauded and voted the same way," he said.

Communist leader Gennady Zyuganov railed against measure, suggesting it was designed to vest even more power in the presidency.

"He has more power than the general secretary (of the Soviet Union), the czar and the pharaoh altogether," Zyuganov said. "If tomorrow you choose the person, who is controlled by no one, for a six-year term, it will be an even bigger tragedy and danger for the country" than the economic crisis.

Lawmakers also voted to extend Duma legislators' terms from four to five years.

We may not like him, but it looks like we better get used to him.

Somewhat ironically, it's the commies that are really up in arms against this.

[The Winslow]

Ultranationalist Vladimir Zhirinovsky voiced support for the measure, saying it would bring Russia "into conformity" with other nations, such as France, where the president serves for six years.
Actually, the French presidential mandate was reduced from seven years to five years in 2000.

[Northcott]

I read an interview with some Cossaks (sp?) about a year, year and a half ago, where they were talking about Putin like he was some infallible political titan to follow. It may have just been one little group sounding off, but they were talking in terms of blind devotion -- that they'd name him Czar, if they could.

[Lmik]

:rolleyes:
Please Kuwait was a independent sovereign nation and was never under Iraq.

South Ossetia has been a part of Georgia since 1801, no country recognized their independence (not even Russia) until 2006. South Ossetia didn't even break away until 1992.

Iraqi Kurdistan is a much better comparison since both IK and SO were formed as part of empire growth and given semi-autonomous rule. Kuwait has no comparison.

Plus comparing IK and SO allows you to bring up the chemical weapon use on civilians and compare the various backings of dictators.

OK so Kurdistan is a closer comparison though as other people have pointed out Kosovo is probably the closest comparison - right down to the primary products of both Kosovo and South Ossetia being international gansterism.

[Hatter]

Putin is a secret island lair away from being a James Bond villain.

[Brynja]

Does it have sharks with "laser" beams?

[Trainz]

Does it have sharks with "laser" beams?

Yeah, friggin' ones.

[The Winslow]

That's silly, sharks don't have laser beams. The truth is that these sharks are ridden by laserspiders.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Soon, Putin will be president again, with some messages for other countries:

Hey Ukraine, we have an invitation to return to the Soviet Union. It's an invitation we advise you to heed.
So Georgia, you decided to be creeps. Russia knows how to deal with creeps. And so, you shall be dealt with, as you have earned.
Hey Moldovia, see what happened to Georgia just now? Do you want to be creepy too?
We like Belarus. We like it so much that the leadership there has agreed to merge with our country. A wise choice, on their part.
Hey Kazakhstan, we are concerned about our ethnic peoples in your country. Why don't you just return to Russia, and solve the problem ... or shall we solve the problem for you?
Hey Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijian, we feel we are more capable of running your countries that you are. You agree with that, right? Right?!

Hey Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, we are sorry to place nukes right on your border aimed at your cities, but hey, you insist on being in NATO. You could always leave, you know.
Hey Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, we invite you to depart NATO and join the new alliance we're setting up.

Hey Western Europe, America is fallen country. Why don't you leave NATO and let's create a new Pan-European Alliance. After all, Russians are Europeans and we are brothers.
Since we control the flow of oil and natural gas into your countries, we feel this is most reasonable of us, to make such a generous offer. You should be generous, too. If you refuse to be generous, we can always raise the price of our services, or cut off the service altogether.

(meanwhile, in the United States of America)

Hey Russia, you go right ahead (with Ukraine)
Hey Russia, you go right ahead (with Georgia)
Hey Russia, you go right ahead (with Moldovia)
Etc., etc., ad nauseum, all the way to:
Hey, we agree. We declare the NATO Alliance dissolved.

:(

To say the fox is in the henhouse doesn't even begin to describe it.
The fox, is in charge of security at the henhouse. And all the security officers are foxes. And the boss has taken a year's vacation from the farm.

[The Theocrat of Poon-Tang]

The memory of Soviet/Russian domination is still too fresh for those satellite states. I think it would be a cold day in hell before the Ukraine ever goes back to an alliance with Russia. They hate them with a passion. Hell, if Hitler would have played his cards right he could have had many willing recruits from the Ukraine to fight against the Russians.

[Edena_of_Neith]

I never said Ukraine would willingly reunite with Russia.
I said that Putin would offer an invitation to reunite.

Of course, this will be one of those Invitations You Cannot Refuse, thanks to the thousands of Russian tanks lined up on the borders of Ukraine that come with the invitation.
Putin is that type of guy.

Georgia won't be so lucky. After we pull out (and I see that happening pretty quickly) Putin will make an example out of Georgia to show all other potential Western wannabes what it means to dis Mother Russia.

[Name Lips]

I'm not sure how far Russia will go, but I agree with Edena insomuch that they are not going to sit idly by and watch the USA overextend itself during a recession without taking advatage of it. They will expand their influence one way or another.

[Hatter]

The memory of Soviet/Russian domination is still too fresh for those satellite states. I think it would be a cold day in hell before the Ukraine ever goes back to an alliance with Russia. They hate them with a passion. Hell, if Hitler would have played his cards right he could have had many willing recruits from the Ukraine to fight against the Russians.

Russia doesn't need to have direct control over them, it just wants to extend it's sphere of influence to include them again and nobody, especially the currently toothless NATO, is in a position to stop them (in the short term, at least).

[Ancalagon]

You know...

I don't know if I should:

A: Respect Sarkozy more for being blunt with Putin and reigning him in

B: Fear Putin more because he bluffed Sarkozy (and us) into thinking he was going to crush Georgia and making us feel we "helped" by "stopping" him.

[Brynja]

Excellent assessment

[The Theocrat of Poon-Tang]

Russia doesn't need to have direct control over them, it just wants to extend it's sphere of influence to include them again and nobody, especially the currently toothless NATO, is in a position to stop them (in the short term, at least).

There was a time when I might have debated you on NATO being toothless. That was until I found out that Italy tipped off Libya during our air raid in 1986, and that was at a time of high cold war tension.

If an ally does that then, why the hell should we think any of those motherfuckers have our backs now?

[Dacke]

I never said Ukraine would willingly reunite with Russia.
I said that Putin would offer an invitation to reunite.
I doubt Putin would want Russia to reincorporate the former Soviet republics - they have too much trouble with people wanting to break off already (Chechnya and such). He'd want to get them more under his thumb though - basically, Ukraine and Belarus would be the new East Germany, Poland, and Czechoslovakia.

[Hatter]

There was a time when I might have debated you on NATO being toothless. That was until I found out that Italy tipped off Libya during our air raid in 1986, and that was at a time of high cold war tension.

If an ally does that then, why the hell should we think any of those motherfuckers have our backs now?

Check out this (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20081006_german_question) analysis of Germany from Stratfor last month.

Relevant quote:

The United States has the option of placing a nuclear umbrella over the Baltics and Eastern Europe, which would guarantee a nuclear strike on Russia in the event of an attack in either place. While this was the guarantee made to Western Europe in the Cold War, it is unlikely that the United States is prepared for global thermonuclear war over Estonia’s fate. Such a U.S. guarantee to the Baltics and Eastern Europe simply would not represent a credible threat.

The other U.S. option is a major insertion of American forces either by sea through Danish waters or via French and German ports and railways, assuming France or Germany would permit their facilities to be used for such a deployment. But this option is academic at the moment. The United States could not deploy more than symbolic forces even if it wanted to. For the moment, NATO is therefore an entity that issues proclamations, not a functioning military alliance, in spite of (or perhaps because of) deployments in Afghanistan.

[The Winslow]

You know...

I don't know if I should:

A: Respect Sarkozy more for being blunt with Putin and reigning him in

B: Fear Putin more because he bluffed Sarkozy (and us) into thinking he was going to crush Georgia and making us feel we "helped" by "stopping" him.
Respecting this angry idiot is out of question as far as I'm concerned, so...