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View Full Version : World History - In Which I realize that I Have Been Wrong About Something


Singularity
11-10-2008, 07:51 PM
One of the benefits of taking world history from an Asian guy is that he goes out of his way to buck the trend of viewing history through the lense of Western civilization. This is definitely not the first history course I've taken over the years, and certainly not the first one to cover China, the Middle East, and others, but it is the first one that dispenses with the middle ages by dismissing it as society going backwards.

Case in point, Islam. In the past, when studying it, I've read from very Westernized textbooks that present just enough facts that provide a basic understanding of it, but not enough information to truly understand it. Likely, this is because westerners wrote the book, not because they were particularly swayed by Christianity, but because a number of assumptions have been made about it that are simply untrue, and when combined with 9/11 and terrorism, there is a lack of desire to treat it fairly.

The stuff I already knew were the five pillars of Islam - There is no God but God and Muhammed is his prophet, study of the Qu'oran, daily prayer - 5 times per day, fasting during the month of Ramadan, and giving alms to the poor. Also that Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, is an Abrahamic religion, and that Mohammed was merely a prophet and not the son of God and did not perform miracles.

The reason I've always been critical of Islam is the same reason that I'm critical of religious fundamentalism, which is that the religion is also a form of government. I mean, this is what I had been taught, nobody bothers to dispute this, so why question it?

While Europe was in its dark ages, most of it slave to a religion that forced conversion, Islam was spreading throughout the central Afro-Eurasia region, but it wasn't doing so by the sword, as I had always learned. The appeal of Islam is that if you abide by the five pillars of the religion, native cultures can still exist as they had before the introduction of Islam. Other things: the Qu'oran, unlike the Bible, does not try to define God. In that religion, the notion of God remains elusive. Other nifty things: they discovered Greek writings and Helenistic culture before western civilization and translated the Greek works into Arabic (later, the Arabic writings were re-translated back into Latin from the Arabic translations, which is how we have much of the knowledge that we have of them). Their scientists realized that the Earth revolved around the sun a hundred years before Copernicus did the same thing for the western world. Most importantly, the sect that believes that the religion = government is only the Shia, and they are limited mostly to Iran and Iraq. Most of Islam believes in maintaining a secular government. In other words, they're no more likely to try the whole conversion by the sword crap than your typical moderate branches of Christianity.

In other words, my "problem" with Islam is the same problem I have with Christian fundamentalists, which is their desire to transform their society's into theocracies.

In many ways, I respect the religion much more than I do Christianity for a number of reasons. First, the Qu'oran was written while Muhammed was still alive, while the Bible was written quite a while after the death of Jesus. This means that it would have been easy for personal agendas, miracles, and (particularly important for me) the myth of his divinity to be inserted into his story after his death. I do believe that Jesus lived, but I generally think of him as a religious philosopher along the same lines as the Buddha, but certainly not supernatural. Islam doesn't try to say that their central figure is in any way supernatural.

Further, after returning from Yathrib to Mecca, along with an army, what was expected of Muhammed by the people he had just conquered was that they would be put to the sword, raped, pillaged, and otherwise treated poorly, as was the custom of the time. Instead, the only thing he attacked was the idols of their tribal gods. Since this is such a fundamental part of their religion, since they only fought when they were attacked, it suggests to me that the message of the religion really is peace.

I think the fundamentalists are just as wrong as they have ever been, but the majority of Muslims are not fundamentalists. They're a minority that makes the whole look bad, much the same as Christian fundamentalism makes the whole of Christianity look bad to those who don't understand the various sects.

That is not to say that I think their religion is "right," I don't think any religion is right. It does mean that I have a newfound respect for it, mainly because their notion of religion is much more based on reality, reason, peace, and the common good than I ever realized (Mohammed was very much in favor of wealth redistribution, which is why the Meccans hated him). Why is this important to me? Because I no longer equate the entire religion with intolerance and oppression as I once did. Mainstream Islam is no more of a radical choice than mainstream Christianity is - maybe a little bit less so.

Pigs in Space
11-10-2008, 08:44 PM
I thought the Koran was written after Mohammed died?

I thought it basically worked like this:
- People write bits and peices down on paper, walls, bark, bricks, whatever, Mohammed comes through town.
- 100 years later some guy (a Caliph?) gets all like "we should have a book" and he makes people bring him the thousands of bits and peices, which are sifted through, then decisions are made on what is in and out.
- Copies of it get sent around.
- The shia go "wtf dude, nuh-h!"
- 1000 years or so go by.
- People fly planes at buildings to get some raisins.

Lmik
11-10-2008, 08:46 PM
Is that while they are throwing thier babies off freighters to delay the Australian Navy from imprisoning them all on a desolate pacific rock or just before?

Brynja
11-10-2008, 08:54 PM
Sing-

You are regurgitating what he told you, which isnt bad per se. It is good to get alternative viewpoints to our own Western one.

But always remember history has three sides. Yours. Mine. The Truth.

Singularity
11-10-2008, 09:17 PM
Sing-

You are regurgitating what he told you, which isnt bad per se. It is good to get alternative viewpoints to our own Western one.

But always remember history has three sides. Yours. Mine. The Truth.

Agreed, though his position is supported by the textbook and a couple other sources I've looked at. Part of the reason I'm inclined to agree to see that point of view, though, is simply because I don't think very highly of many fundamental aspects of Western culture.

At any rate, I'm hardly glorifying it. I'm just saying that my perception of it, particularly America's perception, as it being this global force of evil isn't exactly accurate.

Pigs in Space
11-10-2008, 09:40 PM
Is that while they are throwing thier babies off freighters to delay the Australian Navy from imprisoning them all on a desolate pacific rock or just before?

Were they muslims?

I'm pretty sure that incident didn't actually happen - I think it was Howard lying to us saying that it did happen, to justify putting them on the Rock.

You know, that's why we re-elected him at the time. Abuse of muslims, and lying to the public was so vogue 5 years ago.

Name Lips
11-10-2008, 09:48 PM
I thought the Koran was written after Mohammed died?

The Koran is the literal word of the Archangel, messenger of god, written and approved with/by Mohammed while he was alive. All Arabic editions of the Koran are identical - no evolution or changes. Devout Muslims consider it a sin to translate into any other language, at worst, and at best consider such translations to be imperfect and NOT, themselves, the Koran.

Pigs in Space
11-10-2008, 10:04 PM
The Koran is the literal word of the Archangel, messenger of god, written and approved with/by Mohammed while he was alive. All Arabic editions of the Koran are identical - no evolution or changes. Devout Muslims consider it a sin to translate into any other language, at worst, and at best consider such translations to be imperfect and NOT, themselves, the Koran.

I'm pretty sure you'll find that my man Mohammed said a lot of stuff, his followers wrote it down and spread it around, and it was (fairly dubiously) compiled and standardized after his death.

But hey, when it comes to religious texts, that better than average.

Singularity
11-10-2008, 10:18 PM
But hey, when it comes to religious texts, that better than average.

That's kind of my point. There was a greatly reduced chance of the original message (correct or incorrect as it may be) being diluted since the text was generated while Muhammed was still alive.

Dacke
11-10-2008, 10:36 PM
I thought the Koran was written after Mohammed died?

I thought it basically worked like this:
- People write bits and peices down on paper, walls, bark, bricks, whatever, Mohammed comes through town.
- 100 years later some guy (a Caliph?) gets all like "we should have a book" and he makes people bring him the thousands of bits and peices, which are sifted through, then decisions are made on what is in and out.
- Copies of it get sent around.
- The shia go "wtf dude, nuh-h!"
- 1000 years or so go by.
- People fly planes at buildings to get some raisins.
I'm not an expert, but I think that's the Hadith. The Qu'ran was written down by Mohammed, but there's also a whole bunch of apocrypha about what Mohammed said and did that did not make it into the Qu'ran.

Pigs in Space
11-10-2008, 10:39 PM
That's kind of my point. There was a greatly reduced chance of the original message (correct or incorrect as it may be) being diluted since the text was generated while Muhammed was still alive.

Fair enough, but even if it's twice as accurate as the bible, then that's still pretty damn innacurate.

Darkfire
11-11-2008, 01:03 AM
The each piece of the Qu'ran was revealed seperately (some many months apart), the early ones were memorised by the Prophet (pbuh) as they were given to him, but as the later ones came around (these were the ones dealing with legal issues) there was a whole group of people dedicated to memorising them (and also were possible to write them down). So in terms of changing things after the revelation it would've gotten harder as Islam got more popular.

The haddith is a collection of sayings/stories about the Prophet and to make it into the authentic collections the piece needs to trace a chain to the original person. If the chain is iffish in its termed a weak haddith and is taken with a tonne of salt.

Black Angel
11-11-2008, 06:30 AM
Interesting thread, although why it is in the political forum puzzles me...

The Winslow
11-11-2008, 09:33 AM
I thought the Coran (or however you want to transliterate it) was only fixed definitively by a Caliph quite some time after Muhammed's death.

Also, expansion through military conquest did happen quite a lot. Remember the deal about the Battle of Poitiers?

Darkfire
11-11-2008, 11:07 AM
I thought the Coran (or however you want to transliterate it) was only fixed definitively by a Caliph quite some time after Muhammed's death.


The text started drifting (either through mistakes or deliberately) pretty much as soon as the death of the Prophet (pbuh) and pretty soon people became worried about what would happen once all the people who were personally there during the revelation had passed and there was no longer a definate authentic version.

So the current caliph (Usman I think, Cat would know this better) gathered together all the written parts they could find, sat down with people who had memorised the Qu'ran from the Prophet and got scholars to put together a accurate copy of all the revelation.

Having said that the oral tradition continued side by side with this and was used as a check (and I think even today some schools trace their text via the oral route instead).

Northcott
11-12-2008, 07:43 PM
I'm just kind of surprised that you've taken a lot of history courses and didn't get this point of view before this. It's not like it's rare or unrepresented... though I guess maybe it is south of the border. It's just sort of shocking.

Though in some translations of primary source documents I read from the time of the Crusades, it looked like the Islamic folk weren't always better than the Christian invaders. They had just as much prejudice, anger, and bloodthirst as anybody else, they just represented themselves more dilligently through PR, I think. The Crusaders were pretty forthright in being bastards, ad many of the nobles didn't even bother pretending to care about religious causes (though obviously many more did). But among the followers of Islam it was very much a religious thing, constantly referenced in their writings.

Singularity
11-12-2008, 08:21 PM
I'm just kind of surprised that you've taken a lot of history courses and didn't get this point of view before this. It's not like it's rare or unrepresented... though I guess maybe it is south of the border. It's just sort of shocking.

Every other history class I've taken that covered that time period focused on the European middle ages rather than taking a broader view. Granted, history was never my specialty, but no class I ever took before now placed the same emphasis on the importance of the Byzantine empire, Constantinople, or Islam. They would be addressed in very few pages that didn't really put them in proper historical perspective, and then, once dispensed with, went back to what was going on in Europe. What I'm finding is that what was happening in Europe during the middle ages really wasn't particularly interesting. What was happening in China and the middle east, on the other hand, I'm finding extremely interesting.

Though in some translations of primary source documents I read from the time of the Crusades, it looked like the Islamic folk weren't always better than the Christian invaders. They had just as much prejudice, anger, and bloodthirst as anybody else, they just represented themselves more dilligently through PR, I think. The Crusaders were pretty forthright in being bastards, ad many of the nobles didn't even bother pretending to care about religious causes (though obviously many more did). But among the followers of Islam it was very much a religious thing, constantly referenced in their writings.

I should clarify that point, because I think I don't think I communicated it right. What I meant was the Mohammed's people specifically - not those who came later - were not bastards. They only fought when attacked. Yes, you can say the same for Jesus and his disciples, except that they didn't fight anyone for any reason. The partial picture I had gotten before was the Mohammed was a bit of a warmonger who codified those attitudes into the religious text that he essentially invented whole cloth. Well, he might have invented it out of whole cloth, but his attitude on violence was really progressive for the culture that he grew out of.

The point is that even when I did buy into the whole Abrahamic God, I never really bought into the divinity of Jesus. I think Mohammed and the way that religion evolved from the beginning, is just a much easier believe and easier to sell. Again, not saying that I suddenly believe that any religion is right. Just saying that I'm tending to look on it with a bit more respect than before.

Name Lips
11-12-2008, 09:08 PM
Mohammad's new religion had the potential to strike down the tribal caste system entirely. It's why he was banished.

Northcott
11-14-2008, 02:43 AM
I should clarify that point, because I think I don't think I communicated it right. What I meant was the Mohammed's people specifically - not those who came later - were not bastards. They only fought when attacked.

Ah! Thanks for clearing that up.