My sister-in-law the conspiracy theorist [Archive] - Kay Tastrophe's Military School

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Name Lips

10-11-2008, 12:53 PM

We had a nice long conversation with her last night. She seems normal and calm during most everyday interactions, but bring up politics and the nutcase starts to come out.

I should also note that conspiracy theorists seem to be masters of moving the goalposts. Disprove one thing and they either say with exasperation, "I just can't believe you actually believe that!" or "they have you fooled. I'm sorry, it's just true." or "That's what they WANT you to think." and then before you can breathe segue into another wacked out theory that supposedly proves their previous one, without ever actually getting down to any evidence whatsoever.

Among the crap we heard from her last night:

"I can't believe you actually think you don't pay income tax." (We show her our pay stubs, with zero dollars taken out for income tax) "That's what they want you to think. It's a plot by the Federal Reserve to screw us out of our money. They're getting money from you, believe me, no matter what it says there." (we point out that we can multiply the hourly rate by the hours worked and get the right numbers, and that we get exactly the number we'd expect. Nothing is missing.) "Whatever. I can't believe you actually think that. Look into it, you'll see."

"Obama and McCain are the same. There's no difference between them." (point out that there are substantial differences in their platforms) "It doesn't matter. They'll both do exactly the same things once elected. By the way, did you know Obama isn't really an American citizen?" (I show her the debunking sites, with photographs of his original birth certificate, and proof that he's naturalized and legal.) "I can't believe you've fallen for that! How do you know that's not a fake? How can you possibly believe it?" ("Well, how do I know John McCain's birth certificate isn't a fake? I mean, I could just disbelieve everything but I don't think that'll get me very far") "Anyway, it's totally true. Look into it."

And as closing statements:

"By the way, did you know what the gold fringe on the American flag in federal buildings means? You better look THAT up too."

"And while you're at it, look up the original first design for the American flag. I'm not going to say anything. Just look it up."

So after she left, Emerald and I had a jolly old time surfing conspiracy theory sites. I have to say it was well worth it - I haven't been so well entertained in months!

Among our discoveries:

Obama is a perfectly legal, naturalized US citizen. McCain, however, was born in Panama and isn't technically naturalized.

Conspiracy nuts believe that the gold fringe on the American flag means it's a Military Flag (because of an act declaring that the military version of the American flag should have a gold fringe). The regular Flag act, which defines the "real" American flag, doesn't mention a gold fringe (it also doesn't prohibit fringes, but hey, let's ignore that). So that means whenever you enter a courtroom with a gold-fringed flag -- get ready for this -- you're actaully leaving the jurisdiction of civilian America and entering a military courtroom where your civil rights are suspended and the government can do whatever it wants with you and you'll have no recourse.

Now this just tickles me silly. First of all, a military court is a very specific thing with it's own rules and procedures. It's clear none of that is being followed in the courtroom. So I'm supposed to believe that the government has, in order to screw us over, secretly established military courts across the country, hidden the trappings of the military under the guise of regular judges and juries and civilian lawyers, but for some reason left a single clue - the gold fringe on the flag - to warn us that we're giving up our rights by entering the room. So after all the duplicity, secrets, conspriacies, and trickery, for some reason they feel they have to leave the gold trim on the flag to make it all legal.

This has been challenged several times by conspiracy theorists. But since they challenged it in court, they can just claim they're not getting a fair trial in the corrupt, secret military court system. So the fact that their cases keep getting dismissed as frivilous is further proof that they're correct.

Then we looked up this whole "original US flag" thing. This one is great. I love it. We had to look for a while before we found the image we're sure she was talking about:

http://www.illuminati-news.com/ufos-and-aliens/Graphics/FLAG1.JPG

OK, this is an interesting flag. Conspiracy theorists claim it was the original design for the US flag, and that the rays eminating from the All-Seeing Eye are the original stripes.

So we did a bit of research and found that this flag can be traced back to the website of David Icke, one of the most famous and notorious conspiracy theorists out there. Strangely enough, it can't be traced any further. There's no mention of where we can get further images of this drawing, or where the original is being kept, or how he got his hands on it, or anything. (It also looks, to me, suspiciously like it was scribbled in pencil on the back of a 4x6 note card.)

David Icke, while using this a proof of the Freemason/Illuminati plot that created the United States in the first place (the conspiracy theorists keep getting the two organizations confused, we did a bit of research on them too), also believes some pretty astonishing things. First of all, Earth is apparently secretly ruled by alien reptilian humanoids who can change shape. Not only is the Illuminati ruled by these Reptoids, but : According to Icke, the reptilian group includes many prominent people and practically every world leader from Britain's late Queen Mother to George H.W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Harold Wilson, and Tony Blair. These people are either themselves reptilian, or work for the reptiles as what Icke calls slave-like victims of multiple personality disorder: "The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the British royal family, and the ruling political and economic families of the U.S. and the rest of the world come from these SAME bloodlines. It is not because of snobbery, it is to hold as best they can a genetic structure — the reptilian-mammalian DNA combination which allows them to 'shape-shift'."[4]
(Some conspiracy theorists believe the Reptoids aren't actually aliens, but are evolved descendants of the dinosaurs who live in the Hollow Earth and have been deliberately directing our attention to outer space so we won't discover their civilization.)

So I guess next time this comes up with my sister-in-law, I should ask her if she believes any other of David Ickes' theories, or just the Illuminati-flag one.

We also discovered that the current stock market crash is being caused by:
A) Illuminati
B) Freemasons
C) Reptoids
D) UFOs
E) Jews
F) Pick any 3 of the above

Depending on which site you visit.

I also got to visit sites concerning the surviving dinosaurs, the Expanding Earth Theory, the Hollow Earth Theory, alien "grays", and so on.

Oh, and the final parting shot of my SIL before she left, "Well, when martial law is declared and you realize I'm right, you can come up to Richard's property with us." (Richard is Emerald's dad, who lives on an isolated homestead in the woods about 3 hours away.)

The Winslow

10-11-2008, 01:02 PM

The flag wasn't showing (might have been just my computer, but I doubt it), so I tracked it down and here it is: http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6770/flag1yv8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Singularity

10-11-2008, 01:12 PM

You're missing the point of the flag, According to conspiracy nuts, the reason for the gold border on the flag is because we're under martial law, and have been for the last fifty or so years.

Growing up, my buddie's mom was convinced that people were after her because she "knew" something about Elvis. We weren't quite sure if it was that she knew he was alive, or that she knew who or what killed him, but she was convinced that people were after her because of it. She's a bit nuts, just as most conspiracy theorists are.

Name Lips

10-11-2008, 01:28 PM

But even if we ARE somehow under secret martial law, why bother leaving one, special, coded HINT?

The Winslow

10-11-2008, 01:46 PM

Growing up, my buddie's mom was convinced that people were after her because she "knew" something about Elvis. We weren't quite sure if it was that she knew he was alive, or that she knew who or what killed him, but she was convinced that people were after her because of it. She's a bit nuts, just as most conspiracy theorists are.
Elvis' ghost is haunting the human embassy at the Gallimaufry Space Station (http://www.airshipentertainment.com/buckcomic.php?date=20081004), as everybody knows.
But even if we ARE somehow under secret martial law, why bother leaving one, special, coded HINT?
Because using secret coded hints is just that big a part of the mindset of conspirators. It's like secret handshakes.

Dacke

10-11-2008, 03:16 PM

Great article, but I have to be a little bit nitpicky:

Obama is a perfectly legal, naturalized US citizen. McCain, however, was born in Panama and isn't technically naturalized.
I believe the term you're looking for is natural born. Natural born means you're born in the country, while naturalized means you've had a previous citizenship but have now become a citizen of a different country.

Varaj

10-11-2008, 03:32 PM

Point out to her that the the conspiracy theorists have been saying that the reps would drop gas prices right before the elections. At least here in Kansas gas is down $1.50 from what it was 9 months ago. :tinfoilhat:

AZRogue

10-11-2008, 03:34 PM

The Winslow

10-11-2008, 03:39 PM

And all the dead people have actually been recruited to become super-secret ninja soldiers... Their death is just a coverup to remove their identity.

Conspiracy theorists live in a world much cooler than reality.

Singularity

10-11-2008, 03:46 PM

Northcott

10-11-2008, 04:26 PM

I can only cringe reading your post, Name Lips. My dad, bless his sadistic screwed-up mildly insane heart, is into all sorts of conspiracies and keeps emailing me videos that he puts together of the "proof" that 9/11 didn't happen and that it was done using computer graphics. I asked him what about all the people in New York who saw the planes hit the buildings and he says none of them did. They were all inside or occupied when it was supposed to have happened and that the people on the news that were interviewed are conspirators. It's all a plot by the "Zionists" and the government to allow the passing of the Patriot Act. :grey:

I ran across a YouTube video a while back of the buildings that collapsed on 9/11, claiming there were 3 that went down, not just the two of the WTC, and that their collapses were too perfect for it to have been an accident. It contrasted footage of intentional building demolitions via explosives, showing how the vertical lines of the 3rd building actually collapsed smoother than planned demolitions. And how the explosions that took out the windows in the WTC seemed to happen out of order from the point of impact of the plane crashing.

Some of these people go to wild lengths. Freaky YouTube vid, though.

The Winslow

10-11-2008, 04:39 PM

I ran across a YouTube video a while back of the buildings that collapsed on 9/11, claiming there were 3 that went down, not just the two of the WTC, and that their collapses were too perfect for it to have been an accident.
Uh, well, duh, it wasn't an accident. It was an intentional demolition via airplanes by a terrorist group.
It contrasted footage of intentional building demolitions via explosives, showing how the vertical lines of the 3rd building actually collapsed smoother than planned demolitions.
It didn't occur to them that it was become a crashing plane full of fuel makes for a stronger explosion than the minimal doses that are placed by demolition teams? Al Qaeda went for the overkill.
And how the explosions that took out the windows in the WTC seemed to happen out of order from the point of impact of the plane crashing.
There are so many factors that can affect this... Ever noticed that when you drop a glass, it seldom breaks instantly? Usually it'll bounce once and it's at the second impact on the ground that it shatters. Does it mean that it fell from a bigger height the second time?

Schizm

10-11-2008, 11:04 PM

It didn't occur to them that it was become a crashing plane full of fuel makes for a stronger explosion than the minimal doses that are placed by demolition teams? Al Qaeda went for the overkill.

Just to point out, it wasn't the explosion that brought the towers down, it was the incredibly hot fires caused by burning jet fuel that melted structural steel elements. Al Qaeda was lucky it worked, because it would have taken a hell of a lot more of an explosion than that in order to knock the towers over.

Brynja

10-11-2008, 11:15 PM

Northcott

10-11-2008, 11:28 PM

Uh, well, duh, it wasn't an accident. It was an intentional demolition via airplanes by a terrorist group.

It didn't occur to them that it was become a crashing plane full of fuel makes for a stronger explosion than the minimal doses that are placed by demolition teams? Al Qaeda went for the overkill.

You're comparing apples and oranges here, man. I'm not saying the conspiracy folks are right, but if you're going to debunk them then you need to actually address the point being made. They're not talking about size or power of explosion, they were talking about the controlled nature of it with the 3rd building that came down. There's a world of difference between an uncontrolled explosion and the way that building demolitions are handled.

Now to address the conspiracy insanity: I don't even know if a 3rd building came down that day. :grey: Sorry, guys. I feel bad for not being aware of it, but I don't remember word of anything beyond the two WTC towers being destroyed.

Name Lips

10-11-2008, 11:56 PM

You don't remember the plane hitting the Pentagon? Oh, no, wait, that was a cruise missile, I forgot!

Brynja

10-12-2008, 12:08 AM

Now to address the conspiracy insanity: I don't even know if a 3rd building came down that day. :grey: Sorry, guys. I feel bad for not being aware of it, but I don't remember word of anything beyond the two WTC towers being destroyed.

Yea Tower 7 fell, it was part of the WTC complex. Tower 7 fell, but no one died IIRC- they were evaced. The Winter Garden was also destroyed (lovely place- had a few company gatherings there) as well as part of the AMEX building.

Name Lips

10-12-2008, 12:14 AM

Oh, and she's voting for Ron Paul.

Don't ask me why. I guess THEY haven't gotten to him yet.

AZRogue

10-12-2008, 12:43 AM

So does he deny that the buildings were actually knocked down, or does he (a) insist that such tall buildings could never exist in the first place, or (b) say that they're still there for anyone who would bother to look?

I have no idea. I've never cultivated a conversation with him on the subject. I usually just go for the finisher and tell him "you know, dad, I'm a conservative and own a lot of firearms. I think it's my Constitutional right." Somewhere before I finish he flips the fuck out and usually hangs up on me. He talks to my brother much more because he's "reasonable." :p

Northcott

10-12-2008, 02:15 AM

Yea Tower 7 fell, it was part of the WTC complex. Tower 7 fell, but no one died IIRC- they were evaced. The Winter Garden was also destroyed (lovely place- had a few company gatherings there) as well as part of the AMEX building.

That was it. Tower 7. They were comparing its collapse to professional, scheduled, calculated demolition efforts, and found that Tower 7 actually collapsed cleaner in terms of perfect vertical drop.

Name Lips

10-12-2008, 07:15 PM

gahh!

We took their kids to the Pumpkin Patch today. We weren't in the car 1 minute before my 10 year old nephew was talking about the dangers of water from the sink because the government puts chemicals in it (fluoride) that make you "do crazy things."

Honestly I think this stems from my brother-in-law. He's always had a "cult-follower" mentality -- buying into "get rich quick" and pyramid schemes, joining fringe churches, and so on. It seems that every time he gets ahead, he finds some scam to go throw away his money on. Now he's surfing conspiracy websites and talking to his kids about all the things he's learned...

The Winslow

10-13-2008, 01:47 AM

We took their kids to the Pumpkin Patch today. We weren't in the car 1 minute before my 10 year old nephew was talking about the dangers of water from the sink because the government puts chemicals in it (fluoride) that make you "do crazy things."

Like not getting cavities. That's crazy!

Radu

10-18-2008, 11:00 PM

PHEAR TEH SCIENZE! IT CAN HAS CHEEZEBURGER?

Ancalagon

10-19-2008, 08:41 PM

The problem with all those crazy conspiracy theorist is that they create a lot of noise - there has been *real* conspiracies in the past, and some are happening now.

Here's a favorite of mine, and a very benign at that: http://www.museoparc.ca/vanier_sur_outaouais/ordre_en.html also known as "la patente" (the thingy).

Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._Church_of_Scientology_of_Toronto when the church of Scientology tried to infiltrate the Canadian Government...

With all the crazies going around, it's easier to hide real conspiracies...

Name Lips

11-08-2008, 02:48 PM

So Emerald had another conversation with my SIL last night. She (the SIL) said that they had stopped paying on their credit card and how freeing it was to have all that extra money.

So Emerald said, "I know what you mean, it was nice after we declared bankruptcy, too."

But SIL said they didn't declare bankruptcy. "Oh, you don't need to do that." Apparently, according to her, you can get the credit card companies to write off your debt just by writing them a letter. The letter asks them to PROVE that at the time they loaned you the money that they actually had the CASH ON HAND to back up that loan. Since they can never prove this, because credit card companies never make sure they have cash set aside for this, they'll eliminate your debt rather than have this brought up in court.

Or something. It didn't make much sense, but I got it second-hand. And you're getting it third-hand. Maybe it made more sense in person.

Guess we'll see how it works out for them. In my experience, once the debt is sold to a collection agency, you'll be harassed nonstop.

The Winslow

11-08-2008, 03:14 PM

Guess we'll see how it works out for them. In my experience, once the debt is sold to a collection agency, you'll be harassed nonstop.

But she, she will only be harassed because she knows too much.

Freedom Canadian

11-08-2008, 07:08 PM

But SIL said they didn't declare bankruptcy. "Oh, you don't need to do that." Apparently, according to her, you can get the credit card companies to write off your debt just by writing them a letter. The letter asks them to PROVE that at the time they loaned you the money that they actually had the CASH ON HAND to back up that loan. Since they can never prove this, because credit card companies never make sure they have cash set aside for this, they'll eliminate your debt rather than have this brought up in court.

So many levels of wrong.

1) Even if true, it's still unethical as hell. That's like admitting to your family that you stole money from X and they can't do a thing about it.

2) Even if true, we're talking about a credit card here, no a multi-million dollar loan. What is the chance that VISA can't prove they had at least, oh, I dunno, $10000 in one of their bank accounts at the time of your loan ? 0%

3) :lol: Good luck with that theory. :lol:

Yig

11-08-2008, 11:47 PM

Yeah but is cash on hand the same thing as having the money in your bank account?

I still think it's a load of bullshit.

Name Lips

11-09-2008, 12:09 AM

It sounds a lot like the same bullshit you find on the "the Fed is a conspiracy" and "only money backed by gold is real" type websites.

Ancalagon

11-09-2008, 10:11 PM

It sounds a lot like the same bullshit you find on the "the Fed is a conspiracy" and "only money backed by gold is real" type websites.

Technically, fiat based currency is just that... fiat. Mind you, good luck with that in a court of law.

Name Lips

12-02-2008, 09:50 AM

Well they've finally done it. They're heading for the hills. They rented a little out-of-the way house and my brother-in-law is going to work as a satellite dish installation man. At least, that is, until the End of Days.

My neice's birthday is before they leave so we asked what she'd like for a present. They said, "Ammunition. It's all we need now."

The Winslow

12-02-2008, 10:05 AM

I imagine her, twenty year later, peeking through the door and nervously asking someone if Bush is still President.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2598/mat20080619uz9.png (http://www.menagea3.net/d/20080619.html)

Cat of Ulthar

12-02-2008, 10:14 AM

My neice's birthday is before they leave so we asked what she'd like for a present. They said, "Ammunition. It's all we need now."

You are joking? :shock: Please?

Name Lips

12-02-2008, 10:20 AM

You are joking? :shock: Please?

:(

I wish.

Ink Bleeder

12-02-2008, 10:33 AM

I still say we should notify the authorities. This has to be unhealthy for the kids.

Cat's Paw Nebula

12-02-2008, 10:39 AM

I still say we should notify the authorities. This has to be unhealthy for the kids.
I think holding crazy whacko beliefs isn't normally considered abuse.

PWD

12-02-2008, 10:56 AM

1) Even if true, it's still unethical as hell. That's like admitting to your family that you stole money from X and they can't do a thing about it.

This is the same family where emerald's mother, believing she had a terminal illness, racked up many tens of thousands of dollars of travel, luxuries, and education expenses fully intending to die and stiff her creditors with the loss. Upon her unexpected recovery, she had no plans to deal with her accumulated debt but to depend on family.

I'm thinking crazy and unethical is in the bloodline.

Varaj

12-02-2008, 10:57 AM

This is the same family where emerald's mother, believing she had a terminal illness, racked up many tens of thousands of dollars of travel, luxuries, and education expenses fully intending to die and stiff her creditors with the loss. Upon her unexpected recovery, she had no plans to deal with her accumulated debt but to depend on family.

I'm thinking crazy and unethical is in the bloodline.

She should have at least committed Sepaku.

Name Lips

12-02-2008, 10:58 AM

As long as they're meeting the legal minimum requirements for homeschooling they're not technically abusing the kids. Simply for being wackos... I don't want society going there. After all, to certain people, I'm the wacko.

The Winslow

12-02-2008, 11:11 AM

I still say we should notify the authorities. This has to be unhealthy for the kids.

Heh. It would just legitimate their craziness in their eyes. Only now they'd consider Lips as a traitor sold out to "Them".

Ink Bleeder

12-02-2008, 12:04 PM

Heh. It would just legitimate their craziness in their eyes. Only now they'd consider Lips as a traitor sold out to "Them".

Good point.

And I know there's probably nothing that can be done, but I'd still feel better if I knew soemone had been notified.

PWD

12-02-2008, 12:12 PM

After all, to certain people, I'm the wacko.

You are a wacko, but there are degrees and then there are degrees.

Atropine Mama

12-02-2008, 09:22 PM

My neice's birthday is before they leave so we asked what she'd like for a present. They said, "Ammunition. It's all we need now."

:grey: How old is this niece? Are there other victims, er, I mean children involved?

Name Lips

12-02-2008, 10:13 PM

:grey: How old is this niece? Are there other victims, er, I mean children involved?

Niece and nephew, 8 and 10 years old, both showing signs of undiagnosed autism/Aspergers/lifelong isolation/hell if I know I'm not a professional.

But as far as I know loading up on guns and ammo and moving to the country isn't against the law. And in NM if you homeschool your kids they don't need to take any of the standardized tests or even ever be seen by anybody outside the household, ever.

Trainz

12-02-2008, 11:18 PM

This is fucking crazy.

We all have our wackos in our families (my SO has a few spirists/alien freaks, alcoholics, and other random wackos), but this is pretty far out.

I'm sorry M.

Cat of Ulthar

12-03-2008, 08:33 AM

And in NM if you homeschool your kids they don't need to take any of the standardized tests or even ever be seen by anybody outside the household, ever.

That is sooo wrong it is mindblowing! Anything could be going on! I don't mean your sil, but kids could be abused, neglected, raped without anyone ever having a clue... That is scary.

cnath.rm

12-03-2008, 08:51 PM

And in NM if you homeschool your kids they don't need to take any of the standardized tests or even ever be seen by anybody outside the household, ever.Yow!! Growing up in MN we had to take the standardized tests just like everyone else in the state did.

Ancalagon

12-04-2008, 08:21 PM

She should have at least committed Sepaku.

For a brief moment, my brain read "committed soduku" :lol:

Brynja

12-04-2008, 08:35 PM

183624597!!!!

Name Lips

12-17-2008, 10:32 AM

I've recieved confirmation that the reason they're moving to the boonies is becuase they believe society is going to collapse next month.

As far as I know, their preparations involve learning how to make homemade butter and buttermilk (from store-bought cream) and buying lots of guns and ammo. If society collapses I'm not sure how they intend to use their l33t dairy skills without any livestock. I wonder if they're bringing farming supplies?

Trainz

12-17-2008, 10:39 AM

I've recieved confirmation that the reason they're moving to the boonies is becuase they believe society is going to collapse next month.

... why??? What's happening next month???

As far as I know, their preparations involve learning how to make homemade butter and buttermilk (from store-bought cream) and buying lots of guns and ammo. If society collapses I'm not sure how they intend to use their l33t dairy skills without any livestock. I wonder if they're bringing farming supplies?

This almost made me LOL, but I couldn't help feeling sad because it's your folks.

Buttermilk and Bullets. Playing soon at your local bar.

Name Lips

12-17-2008, 10:46 AM

I'm not sure about next month. They mostly do their talking with some other friends of ours. I only found out about the January thing because apparently their son and my son were at a sleepover and he was scaring my son with talk of how everybody was going to DIE in January. I can't fault my nephew because he has somewhat under-par mental functioning and doesn't realize when to keep his mouth shut. But it contributed to my son's latest round of panic/anxiety over his own mortality (7 is too young to be worrying about death :() and I'm not too happy about that.

So I don't know if January is linked to Obama becoming President, or if that's when the conspiracy nuts predict the global economy will crumble, or what.

Trainz

12-17-2008, 11:30 AM

The Winslow

12-17-2008, 11:36 AM

If I were you I would talk with your sister, ask her what she thinks, and if she tells you the world will crumble in January, make a deal with her that if it doesn't come to pass by say, March, then she will leave her Manson-like husband and come back to reality.

My sister-in-law the conspiracy theorist
...

Name Lips

12-17-2008, 11:42 AM

I honestly can't tell if she REALLY believes all of it, or if she tricks herself into believing it so she can be a supportive wife. There's really no talking to them.

Not to mention their actions don't even make sense within the context of their beliefs. My brother-in-law, for instance, made sure he had a job out there before they moved. Installing satellite dishes. If society is collapsing, why did he think that was necessary?

Trainz

12-17-2008, 11:43 AM

My sister-in-law the conspiracy theorist

Oh... oh...

Still, my suggestion stands. Let them realize that they're still alive and well in march and drop their loony ways.

Trainz

12-17-2008, 11:44 AM

The Theocrat of Poon-Tang

12-17-2008, 11:45 AM

My brother is very similar to your sister, Name Lips. I've gotten the "Government and Israel did 9/11" emails, as well as a host of others. He recently bought a couple of handguns (my family had no history of guns growing up, he's the first to own them). They homeschool their kids, who are really nice but I worry about. Fortunately they seem to want to act normal. My niece, a teenage girl has a facebook account that she kept hidden for a while. My nephew is a great little athlete.

They started out being religious and going to church all the time, now they don't, claiming they can do everything they need educationwise at home. Of course it's all a control thing. A miniature version of the North Korean state, if you will.

On a whole, they're probably all a half step behind your sister and her family. But it still scares me that they could head that way someday.

Conspiracy theory believers are usually people unhappy with the choices they've made in their life before they "bought in". They think this is a way for them to get in on the ground floor of something and be important for a change.

For some reason it's middle kids that appear most susceptible to this. Informally, whenever I come across people like this I ask if they're a middle child. More often than not, in my informal survey, the answer is yes.

Ancalagon

12-17-2008, 06:54 PM

(my family had no history of guns growing up, he's the first to own them).

For some reason it's middle kids that appear most susceptible to this. Informally, whenever I come across people like this I ask if they're a middle child. More often than not, in my informal survey, the answer is yes.

I thought you owned gun(s) Stannis?

The middle child is often a trouble child. I think it's because they don't have a clearly defined role.

Name Lips

12-17-2008, 08:19 PM

Ancalagon

12-17-2008, 09:24 PM

Anc, you said you were confused about the relationship between me and these people.

The husband is my wife's half-brother. They were not raised together and we only met them after we were all adults.

Aaaah ... so the husband is a half brother in law, and her wife is a half sister in law in law... right?

Name Lips

12-17-2008, 10:27 PM

Yes.

Pigs in Space

12-18-2008, 04:48 AM

(7 is too young to be worrying about death :() and I'm not too happy about that.
If you want him to grow up to be a man, you need to buy him a puppy.

And make him kill it.
The middle child is often a trouble child. I think it's because they don't have a clearly defined role.
That's true. My brother refused to kill his puppy.

Name Lips

12-18-2008, 03:06 PM

I have a question. They have a mortgage on their house. They are some of those people caught up in the whole mortgage fiasco. They can no longer afford their payments. They also have significant credit card debt.

Their plan is to move out to their new rental house and simply not tell any of their debtors what's going on. Their next mortgage payment will come due, and won't get paid. Supposedly they sent a letter to their credit card company that has the magical ability to dissolve their debt (see earlier in this thread), but I don't know how that's going to work out.

So what do mortgage companies do with people who just pack up and leave, without contacting them? I assume the foreclosure happens, legal paperwork is filed, an appropriate amount of time passes, and they repossess the house and sell it to someone new. Then I assume they do their best to track your ass down and get you to pay off your debt. If that doesn't work out, I assume they sell it to a collection agency who harasses you pretty much for the rest of your life, barring bankruptcy.

Is that it, or is it worse? Is there any way the police would get involved? Is what they're doing criminal enough that they could get in real trouble?

I ask mostly so I can know what to expect. Nothing I say to them could possibly convince them this is a bad idea. (After all, the Illuminati control the banks, and part of the whole point is to get away from these shadowy overlords who are trying to control their lives via an intricate web of debt and deceit.) But I'd kind of like to know if police or detectives or bounty hunters or anybody is going to come by my place asking what I know about them.

The Theocrat of Poon-Tang

12-18-2008, 03:12 PM

Name Lips

12-18-2008, 03:30 PM

They could afford the house if they'd stop doing stupid shit like getting involved in get-rich-quick schemes. You know those schemes like QuikStar where you set up on online "storefront" to sell products? Except you don't really make money doing that - you make money by recruiting other people to set up storefronts and then you collect a tiny percentage of their sales. Your real money comes a few generations down the line when you've recruited a few dozen people and they've recruited a few dozen...

It's a pyramid scheme except legal because the money comes from actual product sales. But it's a scam that sucks you dry. And they got involved in not just one but several of these idiotic scams. They took out credit card debt to finance their "business." They took out a second mortgage, erasing what little equity they had. My b-i-l tried several times to quit working real jobs entirely to devote full time to these schemes, only to fail each time.

He's a trained, licensed HVAC technician. He used to work a good, honest job paying more than I've ever made installing people's air conditioners and heaters.

And this is what they're reduced to - blaming all of their troubles on the Illuminati instead of their own bad decisions, and then running away.

It bothers the shit out of me because I'm doing the exact opposite thing. We went back to school. Emerald just got her teaching credentials (she wants to teach Kindergarten or 1st grade). I'm getting a programming degree. We want to repair the damage our bankruptcy did to our credit. We're trying to get real jobs that pay actual money for actual work. We want to buy a house (I want a new development, she wants an established neighborhood. See? Normal people issues). We're dirt-poor right now, but we don't even have credit cards and we're living within our means.

So, again, it bugs the shit out of me to see them doing this. I hate the example it's setting for their children. But they get to make their own decisions.

Trainz

12-18-2008, 09:56 PM

So, again, it bugs the shit out of me to see them doing this. I hate the example it's setting for their children. But they get to make their own decisions.

My wife didn't have the best parents either, but as she's grown, she realized what a bunch of loosers they were, and turned out very differently from them. She's the most sane, level headed, generous, and smart person I have ever known.

Let's have faith her kids will grow up to be so as well.

Cat's Paw Nebula

12-19-2008, 09:48 AM

Sometimes kids grow up to realize that their parents are a big "DON'T" on how to live your life. I did, though my parents are just run of the mill bad. Hopefully, those kids will turn out to make that realization when they get old enough to rebel.

Ancalagon

12-21-2008, 05:39 PM

Stannis, to be fair, a lot of people are "walking away" from their mortgage. Most people don't wrap it in crazy though.

I had good parents, but my mom's financial management skills were a bit off... it spooked me as a kid/teenager, and I'm a lot more careful as a result.

Name Lips

12-25-2008, 11:37 PM

Since I sort of seem to have ended up blogging about these people...

We had them over for Christmas dinner today. Everybody in my family was out of town, so they were the only people who came.

Mostly it was cordial and nice, normal conversation about the kids and so on. We played some Rock Band, played a movie trivia board game, and had the turkey dinner.

But there were a few times, mostly during the after-desert chitchatting, that it only stayed cordial because we simply refused to go down the rabbit hole with them. They gave hints here and there where we knew if we asked a follow-up question they would have gone off the deep end.

On a positive note, during a snippet of conversation about their move, BIL mentioned he was coming back into town a few days to get the house cleaned up for - Emerald heard this part - the realtors. So maybe they figured they should at least give selling the house a shot instead of abandoning it outright.

Anyway, I'm sure you all want to hear the juicy conspiracy bits that we refused to follow up on:

Mentioned that 9/11 is an inside job. Deflected this one with an oblique change of subject to the small cover-up I think did happen because several people I know saw it on the news on 9/11 - that the final plane that crashed without hitting a building was actually shot down by a military plane. Maybe that's wrong, but I think it the only "likely" cover-up in the whole mess. They slipped right into the "oh sure, but nobody can possibly think it was a plane that hit the Pentagon..." I'm sure some of you have seen that video and website, where pictures are hand-chosen and bad arguments specifically laid out to present the conclusion that it was actually a Cruise missile that hit the Pentagon. "Where was the engine?" "The hole was only this big!" and so on. That's the only time I directly challenged them, because I've read the debunking arguments, seen the pictures that show plane wreckage including the fuselage and engine, and so on. That topic sort of died at that point.

"2009 is gonna be an interesting year!" We didn't follow them to Wonderland on this one - I changed the subject to the old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times." And laughed about how much nicer the "boring" times are.

There was a brief rant about the Fed and how it's wrong to release currency to the public at any sort of interest rate, and how all of the loans creating money out of thin air will eventually come due and collapse the economy. (this was actually several scattered sentences over a few minutes, which I've summed up). So I agreed up to a point that all money has no real value - it only is useful because we've all agreed to give it value. I wanted to deflect the "gold standard" thing before it came up so I mentioned that the only things that have true, real value are the things you can directly gather and use for direct survival. Food, shelter, that which you create yourself. Beyond that it's all arbitrary and given value because you want it or because it's hard to come by.

During our discussion about macroeconomics I said that pure capitalism has never been implemented, just like real communism has never been implemented, and that neither would really work in its true form. This lead to an odd statement that "if you look at the list of 10 things from the Communist Manifesto that define communism, the US already meets all 10." Which I thought really odd because I've read the Communist Manifest and I don't remember a 10-point bulleted list anywhere in it. So I pulled the only bit out of it that I could remember with certainty, that the communist revolution is supposed to be "spontaneous and unled" and result in a government purely of the people, with nobody in charge, where everybody shares the fruits of their labor benevolently with their neighbors. That's clearly not what we have in America. Emerald is a poly-sci major and wrote a fairly large paper on the Communist Manifesto, and pointed out a few other things about communism and how it's never really been implemented as originally envisioned.

He mentioned a raid by Federal agents on the Amish because they were selling raw milk. I know raw, unpasturized milk is illegal to sell across state lines, and that this is taken fairly seriously by the authorities, so I didn't argue there (later research, which we always seem to do after they leave, showed that there was a huge multi-state raid on raw milk producers, involving SWAT teams. The Amish were caught up in it). But I do think it a bit odd that he said the government were calling the Amish "terrorists" and "Al-Qaida." I didn't see any references to the Patriot Act during my research, but it's possible some provisions of it were used during the raids.

The big one that were simply refused to acknowledge that we'd even heard was during the discussion on National ID cards with fingerprints embedded in them that "there's no way I'm giving that kind of power over to the Queen." and "Man I hate her." We weren't going to touch that one. I can't decide if it was some reference to us actually being somehow still a British colony, or if there's some other Queen involved in our lives... but I didn't want to go there. I really didn't. We just moved on. (Later research on "conspiracy" and "The Queen" didn't seem to turn up anything relevant. But I didn't bother looking really hard.)

Their children refused to drink our tapwater while they were here. They wanted "water from the fridge." So I gave them apple juice (which says on the jug is made "from concentrate" and thus has tapwater in it, but we didn't tell them that). BIL and SIL didn't pour any water at the table, but they were drinking the wine so it was subtle enough not to draw attention. They certainly didn't say anything about the Fluoride Conspiracy. (Emerald reminds me that they did drink the coffee we prepared with tap water.)

My nephew refused to drink his hot chocolate because he was "watching his carbs." He drank apple juice instead, which I thought particularly funny. He's 10. (He also didn't seem to care about the carbs in the homemade pecan pie he devoured.)

My neice and nephew couldn't figure out how to play Clue. It completely baffled them. I'd think kids that age should be able to read and follow the instructions, but they gave up after 30 minutes or so of fumbling around.

I think that's about it. They were here for 5 hours or so, so the above is really not a huge percent of the conversation. Most of it was fairly sane and normal. We had a great time rocking out to Rock Band, their kids opened the presents we got them and played with our kids, and so forth.

Ancalagon

12-26-2008, 10:06 AM

Well I'm happy that most of it was normal pleasant family stuff. Maybe there is hope for them yet.

I think the funniest was the queen comment. Is it the British queen, or the queen from Aliens? Which is worse? :lol:

Freedom Canadian

12-26-2008, 10:10 AM

I think the funniest was the queen comment. Is it the British queen, or the queen from Aliens?

Is there a difference ? :lol:

Varaj

12-26-2008, 10:13 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AFkXq8-bzoo
Make sure you watch the other video's. It is beautiful, I love the red carpet "proof".
More here
Here (http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/international-politics/55069-jordan-maxwell-interview-queen-england-exposed.html)

Varaj

12-26-2008, 10:21 AM

Oooh I love this one.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DCUe61hmqsA

Varaj

12-26-2008, 10:40 AM

Oooh I love this one.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DCUe61hmqsA

Part 2 is even better.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=amGK76g4xyk

Varaj

12-26-2008, 01:04 PM

Well after watching a bunch of these videos it seems apparent your sister-in-law is a big Jordan Maxwell follower.

Ancalagon

12-26-2008, 01:08 PM

Is there a difference ? :lol:

:lol:

Seriously, there is. The British Queen can be found depicted on our coins. The Aliens Queen has a more complex reproductive cycle, but is not quite as ugly.

Name Lips

12-26-2008, 03:38 PM

Well after watching a bunch of these videos it seems apparent your sister-in-law is a big Jordan Maxwell follower.

Well, he doesn't seem [I]too/I] bad... at least there's no mention of reptoids in his wikipedia article. He looks like a big secret society nut, though.

Here's something that worries me:

According to the Memorandum Opinion in Support of Order, under section II entitled FACTS, both Jordan Maxwell and Vic Varjabedian, from about December 1999 to January 2003 "conducted a nationwide scheme to defraud customers using an Internet website and in-bound telemarketing calls. The defendants maintained this website, http://www.bbcoa.com/,[6] where they sold fake international driver's permits, bogus credit-repair services, and sham debt-termination programs. Varjabedian directed, controlled, and participated in the acts and practices of BBCOA."[7][8]

That's exactly the sort of scam my BIL would get sucked into. Anybody who claims to know the "secret" to get rid of debt...

Ancalagon

12-26-2008, 04:04 PM

That's exactly the sort of scam my BIL would get sucked into. Anybody who claims to know the "secret" to get rid of debt...

It does ring a bell... I've heard of similar "paperwork maneuvers" that people could do that would magically remove debt. I can't seem to find a reference to it on wikipedia (where I first read about it), but it had to do with people changing their citizenship in a subtle way.

Kyle Voltti

12-28-2008, 08:15 PM

my thoughts on conspiracies can be summed up in this quote from Quantum Leap. The episode where Sam leaps into Lee Harvey Oswald

Al: I know it's more comforting to believe in plots, because if Kennedy could be killed that easily, by one sicko, what hope is there for the rest of us?

plots and conspiracies do exist. but they are rarely huge undertakeings. A handfull of people meating in back rooms. The idea of giant byzintine machiavellian plots driveing the world are mearly the attempt by feable minds to find order in a largely chaotic world.

Name Lips

01-02-2009, 09:26 AM

So, we mentioned a week or so ago about having the kids over for a little new years sleepover. My own kids had been bugging me that they wanted to have a sleepover before they moved, and were really excited when SIL said ok. We bought a new years party set with hats, crowns, horns, and so forth. We got some sparkling grape juice. But on New Year's Eve, around noon, we hadn't heard back from them. So we called and asked when they were dropping off the kids. SIL behaved like she had completely forgotten the whole thing and there was a hurried conversation between her and BIL. She came back and said that the kids could come over, but they couldn't spend the night because "really weird things happen on New Years and they'd feel safer with them at home."

OK. Fine. They didn't want their kids doing a sleepover on New Years. But that could have been mentioned beforehand, not the day of. Our kids had gotten all excited. They'd cleaned their rooms and found places for everybody to sleep. They were looking forward to it all week. And what weird stuff, exactly, are they thinking goes on at our house? We don't even drink. We joked about how they just wouldn't be safe here if the Apocalypse occurred because we don't have any guns.

But whatever. So they came over and we all went to the zoo. A great time was had by all. It had been a long time since my niece and nephew had been to the zoo (you'd think homeschooled kids would get out a bit more) and we all had a great time.

Their Appleseeds training came up during the car ride. My nephew exerted what, from what I've seen, was his most sophisticated conversational technique ever - he slipped into the conversation immediately and said, "Yeah, it was great, we picked apples all day long!" (Even his mom was confused why he thought we weren't supposed to know about the gun training, but he somehow got it into his head that because we don't have guns that it was supposed to be a secret.) This was remarkable to me because he's much better known for his conversational gaffes, where he reveals something his parents do that really shouldn't be mentioned in public. He has an almost Aperger's-style incomprehension of appropriateness. So frankly I was impressed by his effort. But I told him we knew all about Appleseeds and what it was. I was totally unprepared for the sudden outburst of babbling conversation. They had a stupendous time at Appleseeds. They learned gun safety, basic marksmanship, and so on. My nephew said he hit his target so much they almost made him a junior counselor. Apparently they practiced on small-caliber rifles with targets 25 yards away. They were positively bubbling with enthusiasm.

It was actually really nice to see them so happy and enthusiastic about that. And though it probably wouldn't occur to me to ship my kids off to a 3-day gun camp, I don't have a problem with it. Especially if there are suddenly guns in the house when there never have been before - the kids need safety training and some inkling what they can actually do.

They talked about their new home in the woods, how they were renting for 6 months while their dad builds a sandbag house next to my father-in-law's trailor (sandbag houses, hay-bale houses, and similar budget homes are fairly common up there). They were going to live off solar power and not have video games anymore. I mentioned before how they don't get out much - so the Appleseeds training and the move to the forest are literally the most exciting and interesting things that have ever happened in their lives. I was happy to see them excited and engaged. Even my nephew didn't seem to be too worried about not having his video games anymore.

However I do have a juicy conspiracy tidbit. Also during the car ride they mentioned that their dad reads about something called "501 BC" on the Internet. He refuses to tell them what it means, even though they ask him "over and over." He says they're too young, and he'll tell them about it "when they're ready."

Now, I've looked it up, and nothing really that weird happened in the year 501 BC. I can't find it mentioned on the conspiracy sites. But Emerald said that maybe their dad has been researching 501C3, and the kids (having heard dates before, but not tax codes) simply remembered it wrong. That's the tax code used by churches and non-profit groups to avoid paying taxes, and I suddenly had a sinking feeling that my BIL might be trying to find some way to avoid the IRS...

In theory they move out tomorrow, but the area they're moving to is snowed in. We'll see what happens.

Freedom Canadian

01-02-2009, 09:31 AM

and I suddenly had a sinking feeling that my BIL might be trying to find some way to avoid the IRS...

Makes sense. Maybe this whole conspiracy thing is just a way to cope with being in deep deep shit with The Man.

Harry

01-02-2009, 10:27 AM

"501" BC, according to internet timelines, the Romans found themselves with their first dictator.

Name Lips

01-02-2009, 10:31 AM

Fall of the Republic, beginning of Empire? Could be. We've been scratching our heads over this one.

Varaj

01-02-2009, 10:32 AM

I think they are scared of BC 501
Here (http://www.componentscorp.com/addon/bc_501_1/bc_501_1.html)

Harry

01-02-2009, 10:34 AM

I think they are scared of BC 501
Here (http://www.componentscorp.com/addon/bc_501_1/bc_501_1.html)

I'd be more scare of this (http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/204408378/Wax_Heater.html).

Name Lips

01-02-2009, 10:36 AM

I think they are scared of BC 501
Here (http://www.componentscorp.com/addon/bc_501_1/bc_501_1.html)

It's made from phosphor bronze wire? Don't you know that stuff controls your reproductive cycle and will make us pawns of the alien overlords?

Name Lips

01-10-2009, 10:56 PM

This lead to an odd statement that "if you look at the list of 10 things from the Communist Manifesto that define communism, the US already meets all 10." Which I thought really odd because I've read the Communist Manifest and I don't remember a 10-point bulleted list anywhere in it. So I pulled the only bit out of it that I could remember with certainty, that the communist revolution is supposed to be "spontaneous and unled" and result in a government purely of the people, with nobody in charge, where everybody shares the fruits of their labor benevolently with their neighbors. That's clearly not what we have in America. Emerald is a poly-sci major and wrote a fairly large paper on the Communist Manifesto, and pointed out a few other things about communism and how it's never really been implemented as originally envisioned.

OK I found this one:

http://www.squidoo.com/communists-manifesto

Communism in America

160 Years ago in 1848 in Paris, France, a man named Carl Marx was asked to enter a competition which was sponsored by the National Socialist Union in Paris, France. Being a firm believer in Communism, Carl Marx called his submission "The Communist Manifesto" and within this manifesto Marx wrote down 10 Planks. These 10 Planks are the basic founding building blocks to a perfect Communist/Socialist society.

It is my intent to try to explain what the 10 planks are and how we are prancing them in America today. Along with every other nation state in the world. In this article I will go through each plank and ask to see if you personally are practicing any of them. Try to rate yourself and see what percentage of communism you are practicing. Most Americans are practicing Communism and they don't even know it. Carl Mark's Communist Manifesto did win the competition.

Here are all ten planks vs the 10 commandants.

The First Plank
Communism in America
This one is pretty simple it calls for:

Abolition of property in land, and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

Lets find out if this is going on right here in America today. Within the state of Idaho, 64% of the land is held in a 'trust' the public either by the state or federal governments. And if you try or any citizens of Idaho decide to use the land, we will have to find the appropriate government agency and rent the property or pay the government royalties on anything that we wish to remove from it.

And were dose this money go to, it goes in to the states or federal treasury. Do you have something like this in the state in which you live in? Also, with the rental of public lands, we have taxes on private property. Staying with Idaho, if the 64% is under public policy, that means only 36% has to be held in private property right. I wouldn't bet on it, The state then levies a property tax (ad valorem tax), on the so called private land, and guess what happens if you don't pay this tax.

The property then goes into foreclosure and is sold on the court house steps. So the state is going to get there money one way or another. If you don't pay it, then you lose your property. To me it sounds like the term "property owner" really means in law "property renter"? Do you have something like this in your state? If you do then you are at least one tenth communist.

So what is the conclusion, it comes down to this. Americans have lost there right to hold property in Allodial freehold. And now we only hold it in feudal serfs living on the governments land and paying are fees.

And for those of you who ask how things should be, let me give you a quote from scripture. In Leviticus 25:23 you'll find "The land shall not be sold forever, for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me". This is totally different from government agencies like the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) & Bureau of Land Management (BLM) using the power of eminent domain to take property.

The Second Plank
Communism in America
If we take a look at the second plank in the Communist Manifesto, you will read:

A heavy and progressive, or graduated income tax.

Now I don't think I need to explain this one, but for the people who I do need to here it goes. In 1913, Congress passed the 16th Amendment to the US Constitution, creating the federal income tax along with creating the Federal Reserve System, but more on this in the Fifth Plank.

The Federal Government and the States, with exception of 5 (at last count) are imposing a form of income tax. And the opposite again can be found in the Scripture. In Malichi 3:8-12 reads: "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Ye are cursed with a curse for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes unto the storehouse that there may be meat in mine house and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of host, if I will not open you to the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to received it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of Host". Now that's a big difference in filling out and filling out your 1040 Form with the IRS.

Do you pay the income tax in the place in which you live? If so then you are at lest two tenths communist.

The Third Plank
Communism in America
The third plank is a short one it only reads:

Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

A lot of us will say that this one is in force today, because you still get the people who just recently died left them all there money. But my question is this. How much they leave you and how much went to the state? What is the reason why the states get anything? They didn't know the recently deceased.

Here is the reason, the state gets into the picture is the result of a marriage license. Have you ever heard of the saying "Read the Contract", well did you read it, I didn't think so. When somebody signs a marriage license, you are entering into a 3 party limited general partnership. The 3 people are you, the wife or husband and the State and you all are equal partners in this contract.

Now over the life of this contract, the active parties, the wife and husband work and create and produce things. You know things like money, children and all the stuff you have laying around in your house. And then that one day comes and your spouse dies and after the funeral, You have to decide what you have to do.

When the death certificate comes around you usually see someone from the State comes and knocks on your door asking for there part of the inheritance tax. Now what they are really asking for is the third plank, asking for there share of the inheritance. See you and the state are still in a partnership and this agreement hasn't be dissolved, and the state wants out, so you have to buy them out. The state role is it pays for the kid's education, school lunches.

Things like the Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC). So the state has done there part in making sure the partnership is working and they want a third of everything. If you look at each state law you will see that the inheritance tax is around 28% to 35% or a third.

By looking to Scripture again, you can read Deuteronomy 21:15-17: 'If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have borne him children, both the beloved and the hated and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn.

But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath for he is the beginning of his strength; With in the scripture its all about the right of the firstborn.' There is nothing dealing with estate taxes or probate courts or any of the other stuff. Do you have a Marriage License; well if you do then you should add another notch to the practicing Communist column.

The Fourth Plank
Communism in America
Going on the fourth plank, when you read it you will see:

Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

This one might confuse some people, so Ill give you time to think about it...Got it yet. Alright ill give you a hint have you ever heard of Waco, Ruby Ridge or the Montana Freemen.

If you have then you will understand out the Fourth plank is in full force today here in America. The state using Policing power and means that if you get hostile and belligerent to the government, they can not only take everything you own away from, and in most cases imprison you.

So what dose the scripture say about rebels and like matters. Read Leviticus 26:4-6 'But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; and if you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant, I also will do this unto you;

I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.' God is a little more violent, he not only takes everything away from you but he also kills you.

The Fifth Plank
Communism in America
The fifth plank is a big one, it reads:

A Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Now contrary to popular believe, The Federal Reserve is a Central Bank, don't believe me, go to there home page and read there header.

Also what most people don't understand that the Federal Reserve has nothing to do with the Federal Government? It is a Private bank and is owned by the top banks like JP Morgan & the Rothschild Family and others. And it is run for profit not for a stable economy growth. Furthermore, do you think it is real money that you have. Its not, Article 1 Sec. 10 of the U.S. Constitution reads;

"No state shall ...; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts;"

So here in America, only gold & silver is a payment of debt at law. So what are these things we use? They are called Federal Reserve Notes. And these notes is what called a bill of credit and these Federal Reserve Notes no not pay a debt at law. What Federal Reserve Notes do is they discharge the debt; it passes on the debt to the Federal Reserve. Think of them as IOU issued out by a private bank.

So think about it, have you every use gold to buy something. No, well then you are practicing the first plank to the Communist Manifesto. See 1st plank. You don't own anything, which is why the Federal Reserve can do this.

They do, because they are the issuer of the note. Here in America we have a dual monetary system, one in which everything is on credit, the one that everybody uses and the second one that under the Constitution a bimetallism monetary system. So the bottom line is, if you want to own something here in America, you have to pay for it in gold or silver, you can not use Federal Reserve Notes.

So what dose the Scripture Say about this: Check out Deuteronomy 25: 13-16: 'Thou shalt not have in thy bag divers weights, a great and a small. Thou shalt not have in thine house divers measures, a great and a small.

But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have, that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteous, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God.'

Well it looks like the Fifth Plank is Full Force and effect here in America today? Do you use Federal Reserve Notes, instead of Gold and Silver, well if you do then add another percent to the practicing Communist table?

The Sixth Plank
Communism in America
The Sixth Plank Reads:

Centralization of Means of Communication and Transport in the hands of the State.

Have you figured this one out yet. Well if you have a Drivers licenses and have to register your vehicle then you practicing the sixth plank. Although it is private transportation it is still regulated by the state.

They make the rules you follow them. But if we look at public transportation, thinks like planes, trains & the bus system. Aren't they regulated by the government? What about the Centralization of Communication in the hands of the State.

Well you might now them as the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). They have total control over what goes over the TV, radio & newspapers. Have you ever read Executive Order #10995 & #10999. These give the government direct control over all transportation and the media.

Dose the Scripture have anything to say about this: Look at Exodus 16:29:'See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.' Basically as long as your not traveling on the Sabbath, then God doesn't care were you go or how fast you get there, nor dose he care about what you hear.

Well it looks like the Sixth Plank is in full force today. Add another notch.

The Seventh Plank
Communism in America
Going on to the seventh plank, this one is complex and it reads:

Extension of factories and instrument of production owned by the State. The Bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Wow, I bet you are saying we don't have any we don't have any factories own by the state like Communist Russia do we?

Here we have big companies like GM, Ford, US Steel, Wal-Mart or Microsoft and they are privately owned. Well you might want to take another look. Every factory or business operates and exists on the vote of the Government. Though getting the business licenses and follow its regulations and on its activities they return a portion of the proceeds, we call it taxes. To me that qualifies ownership.

Over the last 150 years corporations have expanded immensely. And to the cultivation of wastelands, have you see the Colorado damn. While they do produce and product called electricity. All you have to do is ask any farmer what the purpose for. They will say it's for water irrigation. The improvement of soil generally with a common plan. Here in America we call it the Agricultural Stabilization Center (ASC)?

If you live in a rural city then you have probably heard of them. How many farmers to you think have taken hand outs and participated in theses government programs.

Scripture Reads: Leviticus 25:8-24: 'And thou shalt number seven Sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven Sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years. Then shall thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the Day of Atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. A jubilee shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow; neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed. For it is the jubilee; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field. In the year of this jubilee ye shall return every man unto his possession.

And if thou sell ought unto thy neighbor, or buys ought of thy neighbor's hand, ye shall not oppress one another: According to the number of years after the jubilee thou shall buy of thy neighbor, and according unto the number of years of the fruits he shall sell unto thee: According to the multitude of years thou shall increase the price thereof, and according to the fewness of years thou shall diminish the price of it: for according to the number of the years of the fruits doth he sell unto thee.

Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shall fear thy God: for I am the LORD your God. Wherefore ye shall do my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; and ye shall dwell in the land in safety. And the land shall yield her fruit, and ye shall eat your fill, and dwell therein in safety. And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase:

Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years. And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat yet of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat of the old store. The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me. And in all the land of your possession ye shall grant redemption for the land.' Seems like God had a specific plan to keep things going and not to let the land get depleted in the growing ability.

Well it looks like the Seventh Plank is alive in America today.

The Eighth Plank
Communism in America
Take a look at the Eighth Plank:

Equal liability of all to labor, establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

This idea of being a good citizen means you have to have a job and pay taxes. I can't for the life of me think why anybody would want a job. Now I'm not saying that the idea of work is wrong.

Work should be your closes friend. But what the government is implementing is that you have to work on their terms. You must have a Social Security number, you have to have insurance and you must file a 1040 form eve April 15th. So what are industrial armies? Way back in the 1930s and look at the Civilian Conservations Corps (CCC), today it's called Americorps?

Pointing to Deuteronomy 24:14-15, it says: 'Thou shall not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates; at his day thou shall give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it; lest he cry against thee unto the Lord, and it be sin unto thee.' Straight to the point, make sure he is really a slave, so he has no say and no rights.

Do you have a Social Security Number, Well I hate to say it but your are practicing the eighth plank.

The Ninth Plank
Communism in America
Now the ninth plank is kind of ambitious and it reads:

Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries with a gradual abolition of the distinction between cities and country by an equitable distribution of population over the country.

Let's break this down into two parts. First is easy and simple, have you heard of Archer Daniel Midland, it's the world largest agricultural processors of soybeans, corn, wheat and cocoa. Between the multinational agri-conglomerates and the factories farms we all see. Now the second part is difficult to understand.

Many people think that this part hasn't been implemented here in the USA. You might want to look again. During the 1920s the US population was around 100 Million and the majority around 44 million of them were living on the farm. So 44% of the population lived on farms and were self-standing.

Over the years though millions of American now life in cities and towns. Only about 4 percent of the total population lives on farms now. That is the gradual abolition of distinction between cities and country part.

So, the Ninth Plank is firmly in operation today.

Dose God say something about this well in Leviticus 25:1-7,: 'And the LORD spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD. Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof; But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.

And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee, And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat.' Pretty simple.

Well it looks like the ninth plank is work fine.

The Tenth Plank
Communism in America
Finally we get to the tenth plank which calls for:

Free education for all children in public school and abolition of children factory labor in its present form; combination of education with industrial production.

So I have to ask, did you go to public school, do you have kids that are attending public school.

Even school that you might think are private, if they accept government money, they have to do what the government says so they become public schools aswhile. Now the first public school started in the 1830s and even by World War I, many of public school weren't common outside the big cities and towns.

And now they are everywhere, in every city no matter how big. And for the abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. That was gone before WWI, they just shipped it overseas. We are following the Japanese's and the Germans, where you have to take tests to see what you have learned. And if you don't get good grades, you are doomed to work at places like Mc Donald's and settle with low pay.

When you read Deuteronomy 4:9-10: 'Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life, but teach them thy sons, and thy son's sons; specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.'

We call that home schooling. Instead of taking 30 to 50 kids and putting them in a classroom and testing them to death, with a underpaid babysitter to watch them. It seems like the 10th plank is alive a well here in America.

So What is it...Common Law Vs Communism
Communism in America
So in spirit of the 10th plank, let's take a test. For each plank that you participate in or which affect you, give yourself 10 points. Now I'll bet you will not give yourself a 100. But I'm willing to bet that you have at least 50 points or more. But if you think about it, if you get any points at all, that means that you are a practicing communist. I don't think you realized that, it's just were the rubber meets the road.

And for those of you who say "woah nigga I ain't reading all that shit" here's the cliff notes version:

1. Abolition of private ownership of land. Apparently we do this because a lot of land is held in public trust by the government, and also people pay property tax on the land they "own" which basically means they pay rent to the government for permission to use it, and it's not really theirs.

2. A heavy and progressive income tax. He ignores the word "heavy" and says that because we pay taxes on our income we're communists.

3. Abolish inheritance. Marx was saying there should be NO transference of property from the deceased to their children. But the author ignores this and says that we're communists because we have inheritance taxes.

4. Confiscation of the property of emigrants and rebels. If you leave, the government should take your property (not your next of kin or family) and if you're a "rebel" the government should seize your property. He says this means if you get "hostile and belligerent" to the government they can and will swoop in, imprison you, and confiscate everything you own. He cites Waco.

5. Centralized banking. We're communists because we have a Federal Reserve Bank. He also cites Article 1 section 10 of the Constitution: "No state shall ...; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts;" to show that the Fed is unconstitutional. Well guess what dumbass? That section was about limiting the power of the states. It doesn't say anything about the power of the federal government or even the power of a private bank. It says that New Mexico, for instance, can't distribute its own coinage. Unless they're gold and silver. He thinks it means that paper money is unconstitutional and illegal.

6. Centralized means of communication and transport. I think Marx was talking about the government being in charge of mail and infrastructure. But this guy thinks it means we're communists because we require state-issued driver's licenses to use our cars.

7. The state should control factories and farmland should be used with a greater plan in mind. He says that because businesses need state-issued business licenses and because they pay taxes that the government, in essence, owns them.

8. Everybody should work, and the state should organize industrial armies, especially for agriculture. I'm not entirely sure what Marx meant by industrial armies, but the author thinks they're things like Americorps. He also says that we are communists because we have social security numbers and pay taxes.

9. I'll quote this one entirely: Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries with a gradual abolition of the distinction between cities and country by an equitable distribution of population over the country.
This sounds to me like Marx was expecting a communist country to spread out equally across the land, and NOT gather in oppressive cities. The author reads the opposite and says we've been practicing this by moving out of the country and into the cities.

10. Public education for all, abolition of child labor, integrating education with industry. I think Marx wanted public education to be mandatory and mandated by law, which we're not doing. The author rants about public education here with no real argument given. He thinks homeschooling is the way to go.

Throughout all of this the author said he would integrate the 10 commandments, and this is done sloppily and randomly and I don't see why he bothered bringing religion into it at all.

Freedom Canadian

01-11-2009, 12:20 AM

Good analysis, Namelips.

That guy is :cuckoo:

The Winslow

01-11-2009, 03:01 AM

Throughout all of this the author said he would integrate the 10 commandments, and this is done sloppily and randomly and I don't see why he bothered bringing religion into it at all.

No, he said he would integrate the ten commandants, and I did not see any officer in his haphazardly-written, poorly-spelled rant. He could at least have cited the Under-Commandant Marcos...

Name Lips

01-20-2009, 08:54 AM

Long story short, they've finally moved out there. Compeltely, gone, no longer here.

The roads up near their property are still horribly muddy because of the record snowfall a couple weeks ago, and any reasonable person wouldn't have braved them without a 4 wheel drive (which they don't have).

But they had to get out. They were out of time.

Society is collapsing tomorrow.

That's it. We're at the end. Tomorrow is when we realize they weren't crazy all along. I don't have any guns, so I'll probably be dead by Thursday.

Caliphis

01-20-2009, 09:19 AM

I don't have any guns, so I'll probably be dead by Thursday.

Want to borrow one of mine so they will feel better?

Name Lips

01-20-2009, 09:23 AM

Well, they have no phones, internet, or other way to contact the outside world. So it's not like I can tell them I've been Made Safe.

Caliphis

01-20-2009, 09:42 AM

smoke signals or a flare gun?

Caliphis

01-20-2009, 10:12 AM

Better yet, make a bunch of balloons out of empty sand bags attach a note to a string, wait for the wind to be right and let it go.

Then they will know you are safe, and they will have same materials to start their house. :D

Hatter

01-20-2009, 10:42 AM

Fleeeeeee!

cnath.rm

01-20-2009, 04:33 PM

Despite my finding this all rather amusing, I try putting myself in your shoes and it makes me sad... I'm sorry man, I know this isn't the way you wanted things to work. Lord willing the kids will learn to live in the real world as they get older.

Name Lips

01-20-2009, 06:28 PM

It's really sad they've gone COMPLETELY FUCKING NUTS, but I have to say it was nice seeing BIL so happy. I never see him happy. Now he was finally going off to live a life in 100% accord with what he truly believes. How many of us get that luxury?

At any rate, here's their big plan:

They've moved into a rental house near El Morro National Monument. They have a 6 month lease. In the meantime, they're going to be pennypinching and buying sandbags.

They read a library book (they never bothered to purchase the book) that told how to build a sandbag house for about $700. It requires 3000 sandbags and a bunch of hard labor. It ends up looking like a mud hut (after you plaster the outside) but is a reasonably solid and secure shelter that holds heat and, properly maintained, can stand for decades.

They are building this sandbag house on my father-in-law's land. He's a old hippy, but he's not crazy. (He thinks they're nuts. He only lives out there because he likes that lifestyle.)

So they have 6 months to build their sandbag house before their lease expires. Then they're going to move into it and raise chickens and goats and grow their own food.

They purchased 3 Russian SKS assault rifles and a buttload of ammo. As far as I can tell these are very good rifles, and a good choice for firefights. Their family is keeping two and giving the third to my FIL (who says he guesses he can shoot elk with it).

They're homeschooling their kids, but that's sort of a misnomer. (Our estimates put their kids 5 to 6 years behind where they should be, and our estimate's pretty good because Emerald is a licensed elementary school teacher).

They went ahead and put their house up for sale. I'm sure they don't care either way, but a lady at their church is a realtor and urged them to let her try to "quicksell" it, where the bank will take a large loss on the sale but it's better than foreclosure (at least they get SOMETHING). To BIL and SIL this doesn't matter because they've written off that portion of their life entirely, and there's no way it can sell for enough for them to see any money.

On their way out, they stopped by and told us we could pick over what they left behind: "We've said our goodbyes to all that stuff, you can take whatever you want". Turns out they left an awful lot of good stuff, including a bunch they should have been selling off to get sandbag money. We got a nice $50 crockpot, and we dismantled their closet organizers and installed them at home. They left a computer monitor, a spindle with 100 blank DVDs (not cheap), printer, scanner, wireless router, karaoke machine, lots of toys, their washer and dryer, bunches of random furniture, pots and pans, some random dishes, lawnmower, weedwhacker, a GameBoy Advance, and a really nice treadmill.

They just called asking us to salvage their pots and pans. They especially want the pressure cooker. They left them by accident. Not sure where we're going to store them until they eventually come into town again to get them. Sadly I think one of our friends took some of them already.

They left an envelope pinned to their mailbox from the Student Loan people. It's marked "DENIED. RETURN TO SENDER."

Frankly I don't think they'll be able to do it. BIL got a general discharge from the Army after boot camp because he wasn't cut out for duty. His life goal has been figuring out how to make money without working. That's what all those get rich quick schemes have been all about. He hates working and labor. Which means, to me, that the homesteading life is really not going to be what he wants it to be.

Especially when society fails to break down.

Ancalagon

01-20-2009, 11:34 PM

Sandbag house is also bullet resistant....

Living like they are planning is possible. People have been doing it for thousands of years. But it is hard work, and you are right that it doesn't seem to make sense...

http://sandbaghouse.com/

Name Lips

01-21-2009, 08:16 AM

They told me the design for their sandbag house. First they dig a circular pit about 18 feet across and 6 feet deep. They use this dirt to fill their sandbags. Then they build up a 2' high wall of sandbags around it. Then they floor that section over - it's the basement. Then they build the walls higher, eventually angling in to form a sort of dome. Another floor is added near the top to make a sort of sleeping loft - where the heat is captured for the night, and a small enough area it's not useful for anything else.

The outside is plastered over with straw/mud to fill in the chinks.

Yes, it CAN be done. And it's perfectly within their rights as Americans to go off and do it. Lots of people save up money, buy a plot of land, and do weird stuff like this (though they skipped the saving up money and buying land part - they're just going to mooch off my FIL's land).

The end of the world is today, by the way.

Varaj

01-21-2009, 08:50 AM

The end of the world is today, by the way.

Why today?

Bagpuss

01-21-2009, 08:53 AM

They just called asking us to salvage their pots and pans. They especially want the pressure cooker. They left them by accident. Not sure where we're going to store them until they eventually come into town again to get them.

Well they better come soon didn't they say you'll be dead by Thursday?

I'm just wondering if this exodus has anything to do with the new President?

Name Lips

01-21-2009, 08:53 AM

Why today?

They never gave a clear answer. It seems to have something to do with Obama. They've made oblique references to an assassination attempt and the collapse of social order.

The sandbag houses you linked look amazing, Anc. But from what I understand, with the exception of the door, they're not doing any framing at all. It will be a perfectly serviceable shelter, but won't resemble anything like the "houses" we're used to seeing.

Cat of Ulthar

01-21-2009, 08:54 AM

I hope it's after the Cartographer gets home. :( I haven't seen him in nearly three weeks, I'd like to get some good sex in before the world ends.

Bagpuss

01-21-2009, 08:54 AM

Why today?

Because there is a "Chocolate Face"* in the Whitehouse.

*Quoting an old lady overheard in the shop across the road from where I work.

Trainz

01-21-2009, 10:13 AM

Because there is a "Chocolate Face"* in the Whitehouse.

*Quoting an old lady overheard in the shop across the road from where I work.

It's a wonder he got elected at all, isn't it.

:(

Bagpuss

01-21-2009, 10:19 AM

Well thankfully living in the UK she didn't get to vote in your elections.

Ink Bleeder

01-21-2009, 10:34 AM

Living like they are planning is possible.

But they're not planning. That's part of what makes the whole damn situation so distressing. They read a library book, told the FIL they were going to build a house like that, but bought absolutely zero materials or tools to do so. They rented a house out there that they can't possibly afford because they're unemployed. They didn't even start packing until moving day, and then did it so poorly that they left behind pots and pans. They all but abandoned their house, and their only preparation for the End Times is a weekend gun camp and learning to make buttermilk from cans of Redi-Wipp. It looks to me like they skipped "planning" entirely because they figure once civilization collapses, they can squat in abandoned houses and scavange whatever they need from those Left Behind. Or something.

Name Lips

01-21-2009, 10:46 AM

They make their butter and "buttermilk" from whipping cream, not "whipped" cream.

But nobody apparently told them that goat milk doesn't have enough fat to make butter, buttermilk, or any reasonable amount of cream. Good cheese, and the milk is very rich and nutritious, but it's no good for butter.

Yeah. I didn't mention that their grand plan is the sandbag house - and they spent all their money on GUNS not sandbags. They have zero sandbags.

And BIL had a job offer up there, installing satellite dishes. But he didn't follow up on it and now has no job at all.

Varaj

01-21-2009, 10:54 AM

Name Lips

01-21-2009, 11:45 AM

Like I said, nothing specific. They expect an assassination attempt against Obama, and for society to break down afterwards. The hows and whys are missing. Maybe we weren't ready for the knowledge. There are more than a few gaps in their thinking.

Radu

01-21-2009, 12:25 PM

This would be funny if it weren't so tragic and horrifying. I hope everything works out better for them than I am imagining, if only for their kids' sake. Sorry to hear about this, NL.

Name Lips

01-21-2009, 12:53 PM

My mother summed it up with simple eloquence: People who see no future for themselves also tend to see no future for the world.

Cat of Ulthar

01-21-2009, 03:51 PM

Has Obama been assassinated yet, or have I got time for dinner?

Ancalagon

01-21-2009, 06:10 PM

But they're not planning. That's part of what makes the whole damn situation so distressing. They read a library book, told the FIL they were going to build a house like that, but bought absolutely zero materials or tools to do so. They rented a house out there that they can't possibly afford because they're unemployed. They didn't even start packing until moving day, and then did it so poorly that they left behind pots and pans. They all but abandoned their house, and their only preparation for the End Times is a weekend gun camp and learning to make buttermilk from cans of Redi-Wipp. It looks to me like they skipped "planning" entirely because they figure once civilization collapses, they can squat in abandoned houses and scavange whatever they need from those Left Behind. Or something.

That is indeed alarming. People who live in a "subsistence" lifestyle usually had a lot of practical knowledge passed on to them by their parents and village elders. We modern citizens are kind of clueless... so without research, they probably won't even make it. Hopefully when it fails, their next move won't be even more bone headed...

where is this land again? I hope it's not alaska...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_McCandless

Kyle Voltti

01-22-2009, 06:08 PM

They never gave a clear answer. It seems to have something to do with Obama. They've made oblique references to an assassination attempt and the collapse of social order.

The sandbag houses you linked look amazing, Anc. But from what I understand, with the exception of the door, they're not doing any framing at all. It will be a perfectly serviceable shelter, but won't resemble anything like the "houses" we're used to seeing.
so they're makeing a soddie... but not as good.....

Trainz

02-01-2009, 03:33 AM

Well, it turns out that Merak's BIL has finished building his house:

Ancalagon

02-01-2009, 06:59 PM

it's been a week or 2, the world hasn't ended... what next?

Name Lips

02-01-2009, 08:13 PM

We haven't heard much from them. The don't have phone, internet, or the ability to recieve TV signals (you need a dish out there). Maybe it will do them good to be unplugged for a while - so they won't constantly be fretting about the dark, ominous things going on in society.

A couple of folks who talked to them before they left have told me things that make me seriously consider my "reading comprehension" theory. Except it's overall "language comprehension" that I think conspiracy theorists lack. When given any statement, they seem to get something out of it entirely unlike what was intended.

The example here is that my FIL was trying to desperately make them understand how insane it was that they were planning on building a sandbag house but hadn't saved up and bought any sandbags. As an analogy, he said that one month of rent at their temporary rental would cover 100% of the cost of the sandbags they need. He left worried that what he was saying hadn't sunk in... turns out it DID sink in, but in a really weird way. BIL told a friend the next day that FIL had convinced him that he should move out of his rental after a couple months and use the money thus saved to get sandbags, and that in the meantime he'd just have his family crash at FIL's place.

We're calling up FIL tomorrow to warn him. He doesn't have room in his little 2-room trailer for a family of 4 to suddenly move in for an indeterminate amount of time while they build a sandbag house. There's barely enough room in there for him by himself. Not to mention storage... there would be nowhere to put all their stuff.

The Winslow

02-01-2009, 08:54 PM

Cat's Paw Nebula

02-01-2009, 10:17 PM

And where is he getting the money without a job, regardless of where he lives? It would be funny if it weren't so damn sad.

Ancalagon

02-01-2009, 10:49 PM

I'd love to see a way to graphically represent how people's brains are "wired". It'd make neat art, and I'm sure there would be very noticeable differences between a conspiracy theorist and a sane person.

It's not unlike having a fever - I really thought "that way" when I was ill

http://www.kaytastrophe.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5746

Kyle Voltti

02-02-2009, 10:32 AM

so.... when is someone making a call of Cthulu campaign out of these misadventures

Brynja

02-02-2009, 12:28 PM

ME ME ME!

Cat's Paw Nebula

02-02-2009, 12:41 PM

Oh, I want in on that PbP!

Name Lips

03-09-2009, 08:47 PM

Apparently they moved out of their temporary rental and are living in a tent on my FIL's land right now. They're moving their stuff to another tent tomorrow.

Their plan is to have their sandbag house up by next fall and ready for the winter.

...in the area they're in right now it is still possible to get snowfall. I'm betting FIL would take pity on them and let them crash in his trailer rather than let them freeze.

Ancalagon

03-09-2009, 09:01 PM

Have you asked them if the world has ended yet?

That being said... sometimes I can't help but have spikes of survivalists. I sometimes get urges to buy gold, and I'm quite sorry my gf didn't get that crossbow at the auction...

AZRogue

03-09-2009, 09:04 PM

Or you could really freak them out and tell them that you posted about their secret survival outpost on an internet message board where it was likely recorded by the NSA, the FBI, and a few dozen friendly posters who might need to crash when and if the world really does end. ;)

Ancalagon

01-29-2010, 04:53 PM

hey... any update on this story? Did the sandbag house ever get built, etc...

Name Lips

01-29-2010, 06:13 PM

Their life got crazy and everything fell apart. I'm sure you're surprised.

I guess I should try to summarize and give you all a proper update.

The Winslow

01-29-2010, 06:31 PM

Their life got crazy and everything fell apart. I'm sure you're surprised.

Got crazy? As in, it wasn't so before? Then yes, I'm surprised.

Cat's Paw Nebula

01-29-2010, 08:31 PM

Their life got crazy and everything fell apart. I'm sure you're surprised.

I guess I should try to summarize and give you all a proper update.
Please do. Are the kids ok (for certain values of "ok" anyway)?

Ancalagon

03-05-2010, 08:36 PM

still waiting!

shiningbrow

03-05-2010, 08:55 PM

Yes, NL, now you have piqued our curiosity!

Name Lips

03-05-2010, 09:40 PM

OK. Well let's see if I can get the sequence straight in my head. There was a period of time when we were getting dramatic updates every week, so it was an exciting time of gossip, speculation, worry, and face-palm-style amusement. But I'm not sure I could do justice to a play-by-play that would include all those crazy hijinks, so I'll stick with the main points. I might be recapping a bit.

They had to get out of town before Obama's inauguration last year. They HAD to. It was very important. They believed quite fervently that the world economy was going to collapse, there would be riots in the streets, and only those with the foresight to stockpile guns and hide in the countryside on self-sufficient homesteads would survive.

To this end they sent the kids to an intensive gun training and safety camp in December, abandoned their mortgage, bought camouflage clothes, packed up the stuff they wanted, and headed on out of town.

For a month or two they lived in a crappy rental house. They remembered to bring along their big screen TV and fancy speakers, which always amused us because if society is going to collapse, why do you need your electronics? I guess they couldn't bear to leave them behind to the rampaging hordes of looters. Why did they bother with a rental house when the world economy was going to collapse and money as we know it was going to be worthless, and we were going to live in a horrible anarchic dystopia? I have no clue. There's little internal logic in anything they did. If they really believed what they believed, they should have done everything differently. I can only assume they didn't believe it as strongly as they thought they did, or maybe they were just being stupid. Hard to tell.

At any rate they moved out of that house when it was still cold as hell with snow on the ground. Apparently they had complaints about the house and the landlord. Not sure what could have been worse than where they ended up -- living in tents at my FIL's land, with their stuff loosely protected from the weather under tarps. Somehow BIL and SIL ended up in the trailer with FIL, and their kids ended up in the big tent outside. This made us mad because they were sticking their kids out in freezing temperatures in a tent while they got to enjoy the heat of the wood stove. But turned out that the kids were actually relieved to have their own space. It wasn't as cold in there as we would have thought, and they recall that time very fondly. Maybe they were just happy to get some time away from their nutjob parents. Don't know.

And so their life as homesteaders began. As the weather got warmer, they started growing food. Mostly lettuce. They got chickens (and cared for them poorly). FIL was busting his butt helping them, worried sick that they were going to be there next winter and not have enough food to eat. He's over 60 and really shouldn't have been having to do all that -- if they want to be self-sufficient homesteaders, they should provide the elbow grease.

The kids did remarkably well. Country living can be very invigorating for children. They loved gardening and eating what they grew and running and playing in the forest (well, pinon-juniper scrubland, but we call it forest here. The trees get over 10 feet tall, so it's a forest).

Meanwhile, however, the cold hard reality of their situation started to wear on them. Society had failed to collapse as predicted, SIL was feeling depressed at her new life which seemed to consist of nothing but constant cooking and cleaning, and BIL was starting to be jaded at the prospect of living in a sandbag house. He set out every morning to work on the thing, and was doing a fairly terrible job. Done correctly, a packed-earth sandbag house are remarkable structures. I read up on them a bit. They're cheap, require a fuckload of hard work to build, but can stand for decades. The walls are naturally insulated. If you insist on living in a dirt hole, a sandbag house is definitely the way to do it.

But the problem was... they had to leave the city so fast they didn't have time to buy sandbags. To get the money they had to file a tax return (so much for abandoning the government and becoming untracable). But they were so paranoid about the government that they put the money on some sort of prepaid credit card thingie... but then they panicked that they could be tracked through it and didn't want to use it.

By the time they got around to actually spending that money on sandbags they were several months behind schedule. BIL did a lot of digging of holes, piling of dirt, and so forth. But little real progress was made. Finally the bags showed up and he got to work in earnest -- which involved filling sandbags for about an hour in the morning when it was still cool, then taking a nice long nap, then figuring out how to brew juniper berry booze in the afternoon, and getting drunk in the evening.

Progress was slow on everything but the juniper berry booze, which apparently he figured out in short order. Hideous stuff. But it's a dry county so they make do, I suppose.

It was around this time, late in the spring, that we went out to visit them. They didn't talk about how society didn't collapse, apparently it's a sore subject. We could tell all their stuff was getting ruined under the tarps. The sandbag house was lopsided, had one wall that was leaning outward instead of inward, and had several other fairly obvious problems. But they were doing "all right" insomuch that they weren't in any real danger. We pretty much saw the writing on the wall and figured they weren't going to make it to next winter, and that slowly but surely they were learning their lesson.

We got to bring home a kitten.

The next weekend, after we had gone home, a mutual friend went out to visit - don't remember if we've mentioned her before in this saga. She's a bit of a conspiracy nut herself, but it's more of a hobby. I don't think she really believes all of it, since she actually holds together a fairly sane life. We'll call her Liz, since she has a big enough part to need a name.

Anyway, Liz sees the life they're living and FLIPS THE FUCK OUT. She has a huge big heart-to-heart with SIL, who Liz sees as an innocent bystander in the clutches of an emotionally abusive and crazy husband, and convinces her to take the kids and come back to Albuquerque with her. Right then. So they did.

The kids and SIL never went back to the property.

---END CHAPTER 1---

Freedom Canadian

03-05-2010, 11:18 PM

:jaw-dropping:

Cat of Ulthar

03-06-2010, 07:03 AM

moar! :shock:

Ancalagon

03-06-2010, 08:00 AM

I'm glad that so far the kids seem to be actually learning important life lessons kinda stuff, even if it was purely accidental. How many chapters are we talking about?

Name Lips

03-06-2010, 09:04 AM

An aside.

There was a rancher in the neighborhood who ran a scam. He would allow his cattle to "free-range" which is perfectly legal. It involves letting the cattle run loose over everybody's property. He's then allowed to go pick them up at his leisure, and you're not allowed to interfere with the cattle or his retrieval of them in any way.

Somehow, a day or so after he visited your property, valuable stuff you had out at the time he visited would vanish. It was assumed by many of the locals that he was using the freeranging cattle laws to scout for robberies.

Well, the one-third completed sandbag house just happens to look an awful lot like a machine gun nest, and just happens to overlook a wide curve of the road approaching the property. And one of the neighbors just happened to get some automatic weaponry and start practicing with it at random times during the day.

So now think of it from the cattle-robber's point of view. He has to know that people are catching on. He starts hearing machine gun fire echoing through the valley. And when he comes along the road he sees what looks like a machine gun nest.

He suddenly and quietly stopped free-ranging his cattle.

Ancalagon

03-06-2010, 09:31 AM

:lol:

that's hilarious.

shiningbrow

03-06-2010, 10:23 AM

Perfect! As for your SIL, I'm glad she finally left with the kids. The BIL sounds like he has at the least a drinking problem. Even a conspiracy nut can set up an independent business and support a wife and kids. The children need a stable home with access to education. I'm glad they had the little adventure farming and camping, but I wonder how they'll look back on this when they finally realize what a disaster their father is. I'm sure this is an endless source of entertainment for your family, however sad.

The Winslow

03-06-2010, 10:55 AM

So now think of it from the cattle-robber's point of view. He has to know that people are catching on. He starts hearing machine gun fire echoing through the valley. And when he comes along the road he sees what looks like a machine gun nest.

He suddenly and quietly stopped free-ranging his cattle.

:lol: An interesting demonstration how looniness (loonery?) can sometimes serve the greater good, in the grand scheme of things.

Ancalagon

03-06-2010, 11:43 AM

The Winslow

03-06-2010, 12:24 PM

remember, this is chapter one, we don't know how the story fully unfolds yet... :grey:

I can't wait for the trapdoor gators to make their entrance!

shiningbrow

03-06-2010, 07:22 PM

Yes, this sounds like a good plot for a soap opera. We are all waiting for the next installment.

Cat's Paw Nebula

05-29-2011, 11:33 AM

Came across this again - how are the kids? Did the divorce go through yet?

Ancalagon

05-29-2011, 12:37 PM

the whole end of the world hoopla made me think of these people again -yes, an update please :)

emerald

05-29-2011, 01:07 PM

Not much to say. They have kind of distanced from us. My SIL and the kids are in NV. The kids are in public school and are apparently doing great. My brother is living here and working but never contacts us or talks to us. He talks to my dad very sporatically. Last time I saw him was xmas.

Ancalagon

05-29-2011, 10:40 PM

ah, so chapter 1 was more or less it then...

Well I'm glad the kids are in a stable environment again - that's more important than our entertainment.

Name Lips

05-29-2011, 10:57 PM

Well, it was more that after that, their story got a lot more real and a lot more sad, when all the consequences of their insanity started hitting them. It just wasn't fun writing about them any more.

Harry

08-24-2011, 10:16 PM

The moon landing may have been staged in a Hollywood studio, but now you can recreate it on your coffee table!

I know, Radu has a very recent thread, but it's all about Princess Die.

This is more traditional: Conspiracy Playsets (http://news.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/08/24/political-pictures-tamiya-jfk-conspiracy-playsets/)

Faux Tamiya kits and figures. :)

Can’t wait to show your book club who you think is behind the JFK assassination? Check out these awesome advertisements for Tamiya Model Toys by Ogilvy & Mather! They give you all the pieces of America’s most speculated-over events.

Harry

08-28-2011, 10:37 PM

Harry

08-28-2011, 10:39 PM

Harry

08-28-2011, 10:47 PM

Harry

12-04-2011, 10:04 PM

The article itself is fun. The comment sections? Funner x infinity:

http://godfatherpolitics.com/2422/dangerous-executive-orders-still-on-the-books/

Harry

12-22-2011, 10:27 PM

http://www.fixedearth.com/tides.htm

TIDES

(This is a Chapter taken from The Earth Is Not Moving, PART V ("LOGIC")

No one would quarrel with the fact that there is a relationship between what the Moon does and what the Tides do. The Bible, after all, says that the Moon was designed to serve mankind through "signs" (which could certainly include Tidal phenomena), and through "seasons", and by giving light.

However, to say there is a relationship or connection between the Moon and Tides is one thing; to say that the Moon causes and controls Earth’s tides (as the whole world has been taught is a scientific fact) is quite another thing.

In the first instance--since God has said that one of His purposes for making the Moon and having it behave as it does is precisely for man’s aid in such things as gauging tides, planting, harvesting, etc.--we see the relationship as supernatural. These are "signs" and they have always worked and they work now for those who read them. Thus, there is a relationship or connection between the Moon’s behavior and supplying useful and necessary knowledge for man.

In the second instance, however--since "science" has said it will explain everything in natural terms without God and will designate all supernatural explanations as superstitions held by unenlightened people--we find that the obvious connections between the Moon’s behavior and certain phenomena such as Tides must be explained naturalistically by the science establishment.

So, God gave His supernatural explanation for Tides, which man has rejected. In its stead, man has come up with a purely naturalistic explanation for the tidal phenomena. In short, man’s "science" has declared that the Moon’s gravitational pull (assisted by the sun’s pull) causes the Tides. This declaration is now counted as a "fact" of science.

Vern, one of these explanations is the Truth and one is a lie. Let’s see if we can find out which is which.... First, let us look at some facts and see where they take us logically. For instance, there is a real fact about a neutral gravity zone between the Earth and the Moon. I quote from a letter from NASA dated April 5, 1990 addressing this matter:

"...On a direct line from the Earth to the moon, equal gravitational

effects would be found at approximately 216,000 miles, given a mean

distance of 240,000 miles between the two bodies...."20 (Emph. added)

Other sources confirm this understanding. Figures XIV & XV {reproduced in book only} are taken from one of famed rocket scientist Werner von Braun’s books. They illustrate this neutral gravity zone.

OK. So all we are describing here is something that must logically be true if the statistics about the Earth and Moon gravitational pulls are fairly accurate. Earth’s gravity is said to be six times as strong as the Moon’s gravity, or said the other way, the Moon’s gravitational attraction is 1/6 or about 17% that of Earth’s gravity.

Somewhere between the two bodies the pull of one body has got to be overcome by the pull of the other one. At this point (which NASA says and von Braun confirms averages c. 216,000 miles from the Earth) there is a neutral gravity zone where the Earth’s gravitational pull becomes weaker than the Moon’s gravitational pull and, at this same point, the Moon’s gravitational pull becomes weaker than the Earth’s gravitational pull.

This circumstance is demanded by the gravity concept and all the supposed facts and laws that describe the Earth and Moon gravitational fields. OK, Vern? Now keep that in mind as we read what "science" says about Tides on Earth....

What "science" says is that the Moon’s gravitational pull reaches out thru the neutral gravity zone (where it couldn’t attract a balloon full of feathers, a dead horse, or the Astrodome) and goes on beyond 50,000, 100,000, 216,000 miles and sucks the big ole Earth toward it like stretching a rubber ball! I know it’s incredible; I know it’s insane, but that’s what the naturalistic (i.e., "scientific") explanation demands that the Moon must do. Read it for yourself from these examples (which are repeated in every book on the subject):

"Strange as it may seem [yeah!], what we normally think of as

the solid body of the earth is also affected by the moon, so that it

too [the Earth, that is] has a tide. The landmass of the earth is elastic

and actually rises and falls about 4 1/2 inches. We do not feel these

land tides...but they do take place." 23 (Emph. added)

In his book, The Lunar Effect, author Lieber says:

"...the pull of the moon distorts the earth as if it were a rubber

ball. The North American Continent may rise so much as a foot

when the moon is overhead."24

The famous "science" writer Asimov says:

"...the earth, so to speak, is stretched in the direction of the moon.

The solid earth does not stretch much, however (only about nine inches

on each side), and only delicate measurements can show this stretch."25

He’s lying about the "delicate measurements", of course. No measurement shows this (and what the others said) or could show it. Mathematical decorations derived from and supportive of this crazy hypothesis might show a 9"stretch (twice what the other guy just said), but no measurement has or can show it.

In a kid’s "science" book we read:

"Now the land of the earth does not move easily, but the waters do.

The waters on the side of the earth closest to the moon pile up in a

"bulge", causing a high tide. But at the same time there is a high tide

on the other side of the earth. What do you suppose is the reason for

this? The answer is that, as the moon’s gravity pulls the water nearest

to it a little away from the earth, it also pulls the whole earth a little

away from the waters in the ocean on the farthermost side, setting up a

second high tide there."26

In The Moon: Earth’s Natural Satellite, author Branley says the same thing in explaining his diagram on the tidal phenomena:

"...the ocean at E [the furthermost from the moon], because it is so

much farther away is not pulled toward the moon as much as the solid

earth; the earth is pulled away from the water; and the water is therefore

deeper during this part of the tidal cycle."27 (emph. added)

Branley then gets into some numbers which grow out of the myth he believes, numbers so contradictory as to be comical if the world weren’t mesmerized by this deception:

"The tide-raising force of the moon is very small indeed, compared

to the force of gravity. The tide-raising force of the moon is about

1/9,000,000 that of the earth’s gravity...."28

Wow. One nine millionth Let’s see; that means the earth’s pull toward its own center on its own crust and oceans and seas is nine million times as great as the Moon’s pull on the same features, doesn’t it? Nine million to one. Whew! Amazing, isn’t it that nine million mule power could be pulling something one way and one mule power could overcome all that every hour of every day and stretch the Earth and cause zillions of cubic feet of water to shift around everywhere! Yes, just amazing, especially when that one mule power stopped out there at the 216,000 mile neutral gravity zone! Momma mia...

Well, it would take a book to get into all the nutty theories that rest upon the central idea that the Moon’s gravity reaches out with ghostly fingers beyond its own back yard across another 216,000 miles of Earth’s gravity’s back yard and stretches a body with 81 times its own mass and 50 times its volume like a blob of dough.29

Part and parcel of this nonsense is the "tidal friction" goofiness spawned by Charles Darwin’s son, Sir George Darwin. This concept says that the tidal movements cause friction against the rotating earth and have been slowing it down about 1/1000 of a second per century (!) for some 5 Billion (that’s "B" as in Bill) years.30 Another author dealing with the same subject figures about 14 seconds a century for the slowdown. Anyway, Sir George figured this on back to where the Earth was spinning around every five hours or so and the Moon was so close you could kick it. However, all this tidal friction slowed the earth down over those billions of years to the present 24 hour, 1037 MPH speed, and somehow or other caused the Moon to recede to its present distance. George didn’t stop there, but figured this on into the future, concluding that:

"...after billions of years, earth will require 47 days to make a rotation

and the moon will require 47 days to go around the earth."31

For this "concept" (no more or less screwy and unscientific than his daddy Charles’ Evolution "concept"), Georgie is in the scientist’s Little League Hall of Fame in any book you pick up on the subject and was knighted "Sir" to boot. Makes one wonder who’s in charge of this world’s system of recognition and so forth, doesn’t it? (The Bible says, of course, that Satan the Deceiver is allowed to be god of this world until he is removed forever (II Cor.4:4). If that be true, then it is perfectly understandable why the individuals who advance Satan’s deceptions in the world would frequently be important figures in all aspects of that world system HERE).

Then there is that part of the gravity-causes-tides-looniness which brings in the sun’s gravitational effect. This tells how the sun’s gravity both assists and counteracts the moon’s pull to produce Spring Tides and Neap Tides which come about a week apart. The same principles apply. And then there is the supposed effect of the moon’s gravity on the Earth’s atmosphere.... And on and on. It would take a book, Vern, Imatella you....

Nevertheless, it hasn’t escaped the attention of any reader, I’m sure, who has come this far (Hello...), that the vast eons of time required for all this cosmic buffoonery to transpire fit hand in glove with that other master-myth of modern history, evolutionism. Time is the hero of both of these plots! Both of these myths have the same author. Both have the same future, namely exposure and destruction by the Truth of God in the coming Fall of Babylon. More on that in another place....

But just to make sure that all this Earth-stretching-to-cause-tides-concept is understood to be an integral, necessary part of the whole naturalistic, humanistic, heliocentric "wisdom" and "knowledge" where tides are concerned, let’s look at one more example. And believe it or not, Vern, I stumbled upon this gem in the bird-lover’s magazine, Audubon, for September 1989. It was an essay entitled "Pull of the Moon". In it author Steinhart incorporates the conventional "wisdom" about tides in a way that speaks volumes about how deeply this myth has penetrated:

"There was plenty of reason for ancients to worship the moon.

The moon exerts a profound influence upon the earth. As it passes

overhead, its gravitational force pulls a bulge of sea water, causing

the high tides. As it lines up with or opposite the sun,--at the times

of the new or full moons--the tides are highest. It even pulls a

bulge in the earth as it passes. Moscow rises twenty inches twice

a day. And at times the Empire State Building is sixty-three feet

closer to the Eiffel Tower. Because it tugs harder on whatever is

closer, it pulls the earth more than it pulls the water on the far

side of the earth. So there is a bulge of water on the backside of

the globe too--a second daily high tide."32 (emph. added)

Well, enough examples. In simple terms, as part of the world-wide indoctrination into heliocentricity, there had to be a mechanism to explain the motions of the heavenly bodies, what keeps them in their places, and so on. That explanation, that mechanism is called "The Law of Universal Gravitation". It is credited to Newton but was first formulated by Kepler, as we’ve seen. This "Universal Law of Gravitation" is taught and believed by one and all but is, nevertheless, an absolutely insane concept which violates and contradicts its essential magnetic principle every second of every day, year in and year out.

Even if one can momentarily lock one’s brain into conceiving of a delicate balance between the Earth and the Moon’s gravitational forces, a balance that would be achieved by the most precise, exact and unvarying distance between the two bodies, then that same brain is boggled when it is confronted with the fact that no such stable distance exists between these two bodies (or any other two!). Indeed, the undeniable reality is that the moon regularly varies its distance from the Earth by over 31,000 miles! When it comes closer and closer it gets in the stronger and stronger pull of Earth’s gravity. How can it then resist that pull and start going against that attraction? Contrariwise, as it goes out to the apogee and is moment by moment breaking loose from Earth’s gravitational pull at tremendous speed, how can it stop the outward movement and start back??

Gravity doesn’t explain this. Gravity can’t explain it. Gravity doesn’t explain the tides. Gravity can’t explain them. The same is true of the Earth’s supposed annual orbit around the sun. The simple fact is that we are closer by three million miles to the sun at certain times than we are at other times.

The gravitation explanation for heavenly bodies doing what they do has no scientific evidence whatsoever behind it. It is pure nonsense from A to Z, a contradictory, illogical, impossible notion perpetrated upon the world by You Know Who to discredit the Bible.

Indeed, universal gravitation is a bankrupt and stupid hypothesis incapable of explaining tides( just the same as Darwin’s "natural selection" mechanism is now being recognized as a bankrupt and stupid hypothesis that is incapable of explaining evolutionism). These bankrupt hypotheses both have the same author, Satan the Deceiver. They both have the same purpose; undermining the credibility of Scripture. They both have the same destiny; exposure as lies to be adhered to only by those who "cannot receive a love of the Truth" (II Thess. 2:10), i.e., those who "willfully" embrace these lies when they know better (II Peter 3:5), by those, in short, whose real god is the Father of Lies (John 8:44).

Shall we gravitate to another topic, Vern, ole Chap?

By all means, Bo Bo, if you can but cease with these weightless attempts at levity!

I’ll try....

Bibliography

#20 - Brian Dunbar, Public Affairs Officer, Office of Space Service & Applications, NASA,

Washington, D. C., 4-5-90.

#21 - Werner von Braun, First Men to the Moon, (Holt, Rinehart & Winston, New York, 1960),

page 36 & inside cover.

#22 - Ibid.

#23 - Carroll V. Glines, Col. USAF. The First Book of the Moon, (Franklin Watts, Inc., N.Y., N. Y,

1967) , p. 21.

#24 - Arnold L. Lieber, The Lunar Effect, (Anchor Press, Doubleday, Garden City, N. Y., 1978),

Jacket Cover.

#25 - Isaac Asimov, The Double Planet, (Abelard-Schuman, London. N.Y., Toronto, 1960), p. 100.

#26 - Jean & Cle Kinney, What Do The Tides Do?, (Young Scott, Pub., 1966), p. 32.

#27 - Franklyn M. Branley, The Moon: Earth’s Natural Satellite, (Thomas Y. Crowell Co., 1960),

p.84.

#28 - Ibid., p. 85.

#29 - Ibid., p. 82.

#30 - Ibid., p. 86.

#31 - Ibid.

#32 - Paul Steinhart. "Pull of the Moon", Audubon, September, 1989, p. 32.

shiningbrow

12-22-2011, 11:06 PM

Buttergun to the rescue!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW3tT0L2gpc

Schizm

12-23-2011, 12:31 AM

Harry, I have no words. NONE.

Harry

12-23-2011, 12:58 AM

Harry, I have no words. NONE.

I understand. From the comments in my previous link, here are a bunch of words. Filter through them and pick one here and there, and maybe you'll find something agreeable:

Luke 10:18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
In ancient Hebrew the word for lightning is barack, the word for heaven or the
heights is bama and to connect the words either an “a” or an “o” is used.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (King James Version)
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there
come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Political Correctness a term first seen in Mao’s Little Red Book, a communist engendered abomination that is instituting censorship little by little.

“If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”- George Washington

Carl Marx, once wrote that, the goal of the Communists was to quote,. “enter into men’s minds and cast God down from his throne.”

Matthew 12:31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

In ancient Babylon their economy was based on usury.
“If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest. Exodus 22:25
Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:13
Usury is unlawful; expressly prohibited by GOD!
Article 1 Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution clearly states that only the Congress can print and coin money!

The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was slipped thru congress during the Christmas break with the majority of it’s members absent.

The Federal Reserve is self serving and privately owned in violation to the Constitution, charging interest on illegally printed money. Money printed from nothing!
In America On June 4, 1963, a virtually unknown Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, was signed with the authority to basically strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest. With the stroke of a pen, President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business. Five months later A UNITED STATES PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY was MURDERED BY COMMUNIST!
“If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest. Exodus 22:25
Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:13
Usury is unlawful; expressly prohibited by GOD!

In ancient Babylon their priest sacrificed babies to their gods baal, and molech.
In America the communist under their socialist programs have sacrificed over 50 million American babies to their god satan!
Leviticus 20:2-5
2Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel , Whosoever he be of the children of Israel , or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel , that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
3And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.
4And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:
5Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

Luke 22:35-36 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. 36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Jeremiah 50:16Cut off the sower from Babylon, and him that handleth the SICKLE in the time of harvest: for fear of the oppressing sword they shall turn every one to his people, and they shall flee every one to his own land.
Jeremiah 50:23How is the HAMMER OF THE WHOLE EARTH CUT ASUNDER AND BROKEN! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!
BABYLON = the HAMMER and SICKLE!

Jeremiah 50:14 “ Put yourselves in array against Babylon all around, All you who bend the bow; Shoot at her, spare no arrows, For she has sinned against the LORD.

All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I destroy them. Psalm 118:10

“The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!”. George Washington

“NO KING BUT KING JESUS!”

Pigs in Space

12-23-2011, 04:08 AM

Name Lips

12-23-2011, 11:31 AM

Haha. I like the way that it points out that science is a self fulfilling prophecy, because it chose to evaluate things scientifically, so it got a scientific result, while ignoring the supernatural one.

Kind of makes sense.

Grrrrrargleblargle.....

I maintain my own stance. Things that are observable, repeatable, measurable, and testable are things that are governed by science.

Science is of the opinion that things that cannot be observed, repeated, measured, and tested don't exist. Or if they do, they're impossible to study and therefore not particularly useful, and can be safely ignored.

These are the things whose existence can only be believed. This is the realm of faith and spirituality.

Never the twain shall meet. If it is provable, it is in the realm of science. If it cannot be proven, it is in the realm of faith.

What religious folk object to is that science gets the trump card. Whenever their faith and the observations of science conflict, they get angry that science gets to win every time. This is because they foolishly assigned faith to something observable or measurable.

cnath.rm

12-23-2011, 07:02 PM

Grrrrrargleblargle.....

I maintain my own stance. Things that are observable, repeatable, measurable, and testable are things that are governed by science.

Science is of the opinion that things that cannot be observed, repeated, measured, and tested don't exist. Or if they do, they're impossible to study and therefore not particularly useful, and can be safely ignored.

These are the things whose existence can only be believed. This is the realm of faith and spirituality.

Never the twain shall meet. If it is provable, it is in the realm of science. If it cannot be proven, it is in the realm of faith.

What religious folk object to is that science gets the trump card. Whenever their faith and the observations of science conflict, they get angry that science gets to win every time. This is because they foolishly assigned faith to something observable or measurable.Depressingly well said.

On the other hand, how many theoretical dimensions (which we can't observe, measure, etc) do scientists have to assume in order to get string theory to work?

My own issue with Science is that it raped my childhood by telling me things and then telling me that they weren't true later on. I loved dinosaurs as a kid, the Brontosaurus and Pterodactyls in particular. Now I'm told that the one isn't a dino anymore and the other was bs due to a guy making shit up because the skeleton he had wasn't complete. :what: Not nice to shit on little kids dreams... Bad Science!! No Biscuit!! :tongue:

Schizm

12-23-2011, 08:46 PM

cnath.rm

12-23-2011, 10:02 PM

umm, not to be rude cnath.rm...

But what the fuck are you babbling about? Brontosaurs have had extremely large and mostly complete skeletal finds, and while pterodactyls do not in fact belong to the superorder dinosauria, neither do a lot of other REALLY FUCKING COOL big-ass ancient lizards (like, all the ones that lived in water). It still lived in the same time periods and was, in fact, a big flying lizard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brontosaurus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PterodactylI was more or less joking overall (except about the theoretical physics, I have issues with anything that means you have to assume multiple extra dimensions in order for your math to come out right, it reminds me far too much of "creative" accounting)

You might have noted that the Brontosaurus link forwards to the Apatosaurus entry as apparently calling them Bronto's is now and has been wrong for quite awhile. If you scroll down to the history section you find this bit that I had been eluding to...

The finds—the largest dinosaur ever discovered at the time and nearly complete, lacking only a head, feet, and portions of the tail — were then prepared for what was to be the first ever mounted display of a sauropod skeleton, at Yale's Peabody Museum of Natural History in 1905. The missing bones were created using known pieces from close relatives of Brontosaurus. Sauropod feet that were discovered at the same quarry were added, as well as a tail fashioned to appear as Marsh believed it should, as well as a composite model of what he felt the skull of this massive creature might look like. This was not a delicate Diplodocus-style skull (which would later turn out to be more accurate[21]), but was composed of "the biggest, thickest, strongest skull bones, lower jaws and tooth crowns from three different quarries",[22] primarily those of Camarasaurus, the only other sauropod for which good skull material was known at the time. This method of reconstructing incomplete skeletons based on the more complete remains of related dinosaurs continues in museum mounts and life restorations to this day.So he had a partial skeleton... added feet that weren't part of that skeleton but had been found in the same quarry... took a wild guess as to the head based on bits from three different quarries, mostly from an entirely different dinosaur that isn't even in the same family (the same order, suborder, and infraorder, different family and genus)... and thought he had discovered a new species. Apto is nowhere (imho, ymmv) as cool a name as Bronto, and so my sadness at what I was taught as a child turning out to be wrong. :tongue: On a more serious note, the fact that the overall practice is still going on troubles me. Show/tell me what you know for sure and admit that the rest is foggy or your best guess.

Harry

12-29-2011, 10:39 PM

Not a consiparcy per se, but still alternative reality stuff... I link to page three because the first two pages are pointless:

http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/MathisenD1.php?p=3

Connecting a Global Flood with the Mystery of Mankind's Ancient Past

Since the time of geologists James Hutton (1726 – 1797) and Charles Lyell (1797 – 1875), the dominant conventional paradigm for explaining the features we find on earth’s surface has been what geologists sometimes label as “uniformitarianism”: the idea that everyday processes such as those we see operating today, plus massive amounts of time, rather than extraordinary or catastrophic processes, are sufficient to explain the mountains, canyons, and even ocean trenches of our globe. Plate tectonics, proposed most notably by Alfred Wegener (1880 – 1930) and ridiculed harshly for many decades before it was accepted, continues in the uniformitarian tradition, by proposing tiny amounts of drift each year, which -- given enough time – will be enough to push up mountains or form deep submarine trenches, and so forth. Today, tectonics is taught as though it is “proven science.” However, there is a tremendous amount of geological evidence which indicates that there may be some serious problems with the plate tectonic theory, so much evidence that it is worth asking whether there might not be an alternative which would explain the evidence better than tectonics can (the answer has a tremendous bearing on the mysteries of mankind’s ancient past as well, as we will discuss).

I discuss this tectonics-defying evidence in my book, and on a blog where I write on subjects relating to those discussed in my book. Some of this evidence includes the Arctic and Antarctic fossil evidence mentioned above, the arc-and-cusp shape of many Pacific trenches (very difficult to explain using the mechanics of drifting and diving plates), the prevalence of earthquakes far from supposed plate boundaries, the unexpectedly low gravity readings found over ocean trenches (which should actually have excess mass and excess gravity if the tectonic mechanism is correct), the incredible submarine canyons (not trenches) such as the Ganges Fan and the Indus Fan and the Monterey Canyon, the extraordinary sediment deposits stretching along the southern flanks of the Himalayas from Pakistan to Bhutan thousands of feet deep, and of course the evidence found in that superlative open-air geological laboratory the Grand Canyon.

If you follow the links above, you will find that all of these examples are geological clues discussed by Dr. Walt Brown, a graduate of West Point and of MIT, who has proposed a new global flood theory called the hydroplate theory, which he backs with extensive research and discussion of the principles of physics and chemistry and with literally hundreds of geological examples from around the globe, including those mentioned above and many others. The more I learned of his theory, which deals primarily with geology and geological evidence, the more I became aware that it could shed light on many of the mysteries of mankind’s ancient past as well. These geological and civilizational questions are clearly connected – it is no accident that those who seek to explain lost advanced civilizations eventually become aware of the mysteries surrounding Antarctica, and of alternative theories which in the past have been proposed to solve some of these mysteries, such as the earth-crust displacement theory, or the various Venus-collision theories. Geological theory is intertwined with theories of mankind’s ancient past, as we will discuss further below......

Much more at the above link.

Ancalagon

12-30-2011, 03:00 PM

Never the twain shall meet. If it is provable, it is in the realm of science. If it cannot be proven, it is in the realm of faith.

What religious folk object to is that science gets the trump card. Whenever their faith and the observations of science conflict, they get angry that science gets to win every time. This is because they foolishly assigned faith to something observable or measurable.

Indeed...

The shame here is that there are things that are outside the realm of science that are *important aspects of the human experience*. These things are much more than just "things that can't be measured". Scientists tend to be vaguely dismissive of said things, or in some cases measure the mechanisms around the thing and confuse these for the thing itself.

For example, what is love? Oh sure science can tell us about hormones and neurotransmitters, speculate on the evolutionary reasons for love etc etc, but is that really what love is? Artists can answer this question far, far better than scientists. It's not to say that the scientific information about love is of no value, but instead that reducing love to a number of measurable parameters is narrow sighted.

A good question where religion and philosphy do far better than science is *why* is there Something instead of Nothing. When I ask this, some people say "pff, it's the big bang bla bla bla" but then I point out that's answering how, not why. Some people will then say that the big bang happened because of random fluctuation in the primordial void... but if this void had properties, it's not nothing, it's something!

Science is awesome at answering how, but poor at why.

Arguing for creationism or intelligent design out of religious faith is a poor use of religion. But the notion that science will explain everything is asinine. Religious leaders of all ilk, along with philosophers and artists, should work on reminding us of these aspects of the human experience that we perhaps have been neglecting...

The Winslow

12-30-2011, 06:43 PM

Not a consiparcy per se, but still alternative reality stuff... I link to page three because the first two pages are pointless:

http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/MathisenD1.php?p=3

Connecting a Global Flood with the Mystery of Mankind's Ancient Past

Much more at the above link.
Heh:
I discuss this tectonics-defying evidence in my book
"In my book", not "in my peer-reviewed paper published by <insert scientific journal in good standing>".

There are plenty of people who prosper on the credulity of people eager to believe in a more interesting world, a world of fantastic reality and incredible conspiracies, where they could have adventures uncovering forbidden secrets and revealing them to the world, provoking thusly the downfall of the corrupt elite and creating instead a new world order with them in a place of honor and influence. Yes, conspiracy theories is in my opinion a form of escapism.

That digression to say that I'm prejudiced not to believe anything said by people trying to peddle their ware. Especially when they list as "tectonics-defying facts" things that are quite clearly explained by tectonics. I don't know, it's like someone trying to prove that the Earth is flat with pictures of a curved horizon.

Never the twain shall meet. If it is provable, it is in the realm of science. If it cannot be proven, it is in the realm of faith.

The big problem here is that there are things that are presumably not supernatural, but that are hard to replicate. Everyone who ever worked with programming knows about how frustrating it is sometime to track down a bug that you can't reliably reproduce.

What if you are trying to observe and understand a phenomenon that is quite rare and difficult to reproduce? What if the difficulty is both for technical and ethical reasons?

As an example... I think everyone has heard one of these stories where abandoned pets somehow managed to find their owner's new home at the other side of the country. (I don't mean pets finding their way back home after being abandoned far away from where they lived, but pets finding the new place where their owners live after behind left behind at the old.) That is very rare, but it has happened. Can it be just coincidence? Like, for that cat that went all across Australia in several years, how did it do it? Cats are highly territorial and routine-minded, they wouldn't live as a wandering hobo: they'd stay where they were unless chased away. So how would you go observing that? Put GPS and mini-cameras on several thousands pets, have their owners move far away leaving them behind, and see the trajectory of the poor critters over the next five years? There might be one or two that make it, so dissect them to see how they're different from the rest?

I mean, it's not even possible not to be a complete monster about any step of such a project. And that's not the only thing I can think of.

Ancalagon

12-31-2011, 09:20 AM

What if you are trying to observe and understand a phenomenon that is quite rare and difficult to reproduce?

Then it's difficult - but doesn't mean it's not scientific. Some things may have to wait for better technical means.

What if the difficulty is both for technical and ethical reasons?

Ah, well that's a good example of why science alone is not enough. Ethical guidelines are tremendously important, but are of a moral/ethical nature, not scientific. It's perfectly ok if we, as a society, decide that there are certain questions that will remain unanswered. It doesn't mean that there isn't a scientific explanation. Why pets can find their way home is NOT supernatural - the question is one that could be resolved by science, we've simply chosen not to.

Science without limit can lead to the horrors of Nazi research, where the lack of limit provides a convenient cover for sadists.

hobbiteer

12-31-2011, 06:52 PM

...Science without limit can lead to the horrors of Nazi research, where the lack of limit provides a convenient cover for sadists.

While I agree that the Nazi performed horrific experiments on unwilling subjects, I'd like to point out the huge contribution to modern medicine that those experiments have provided.

In fact, I'm willing to say that almost all advancements in science have been generated from (at one time or another) unethical practices. Does that mean we should ignore the learning that has been achieved? Or does it mean we accept it as try to use it for as much good as possible to balance out the karma?

And while I may be very wrong on this following point I'm putting it out there. I don't think sadist is the correct term. I think cruel, or zealous is accurate, but I don't think they got off on what they did.

Harry

12-31-2011, 08:14 PM

While I agree that the Nazi performed horrific experiments on unwilling subjects, I'd like to point out the huge contribution to modern medicine that those experiments have provided.

I can't help but notice that you don't enumerate those "huge contribution[s]".

cnath.rm

12-31-2011, 08:50 PM

In fact, I'm willing to say that almost all advancements in science have been generated from (at one time or another) unethical practices. Does that mean we should ignore the learning that has been achieved? Or does it mean we accept it as try to use it for as much good as possible to balance out the karma?During WWII (and up until the 70's) there was a lot of research on poison gases, Bio warfare, and such things. There were a lot of conscientious objectors who allowed themselves to be exposed/infected in order to get us closer to treatments/vaccines. (Wiki on Operation Whitecoat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Whitecoat)) At least in theory however all of the participents were volunteers as opposed to prisoners or such. No clue on how the USSR did it's equivalent testing.

cnath.rm

12-31-2011, 08:58 PM

I can't help but notice that you don't enumerate those "huge contribution[s]".I don't know which ones he was meaning, and I find it interesting (but understandable) that a lot of scientists refused to use information from the nazi tests in their own research as they didn't want to be considered as supporting the original tests. (on the other hand I think an argument could be made that not using the info meant that the lives lost had been for nothing... I'm not really sure that I'm comfortable with making that argument however)

As far as Whitecoat goes...
Many of the vaccines that protect against biowarfare agents were first tested on humans in Operation Whitecoat.[4]
According to USAMRIID, the Whitecoat operation contributed to vaccines approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for yellow fever and hepatitis, and investigational drugs for Q fever, Venezuelan equine encephalitis, Rift Valley fever, and tularemia. USAMRIID also states that Operation Whitecoat helped develop biological safety equipment, including hooded safety cabinets, decontamination procedures, fermentors, incubators, centrifuges, and particle sizers.

Harry

12-31-2011, 09:48 PM

Harry

12-31-2011, 09:59 PM

Sorry, please forgive me. I'm a real world-class bigot when it comes to Nazis.

cnath.rm

12-31-2011, 10:14 PM

The Nazis didn't have much in the way of usable or beneficial research, unless you consider Jeffrey Dahmer and John Gacy to be researchers too. Scientists ignore more of the Nazi research because it was useless, and sadistic, evil, morally corrupt and everything else. The only semi-useful things the Nazis came up with our own scientists and doctors were discovering at the same time, without torturing and killing the test subjects. As in, high altitude tests and the like.Huh, I'd have sworn what I'd heard about some kind of stuff about reactions to extreme cold (gained through torture) and something about modern researchers studying the subject trying to get to results without using/repeating the nazi versions of the tests. (well, they weren't going to torture people, but there were still apparently questions as to the research field being bad just on the basis of the nazis having done some... it's been awhile so I've likely forgotten much of it due to not paying attention at the time)

Sorry, please forgive me. I'm a real world-class bigot when it comes to Nazis.Nothing to forgive on my account at least, aside from having really sharp uniforms (I'm looking at you SS), at the very best they were misguided and waited far too long to stand up to Hitler... and at their worst they were pretty much the most horrible that humanity has ever had to offer.

Oh, and before Hitler came along and ruined it, there were some cool people with the name of Adolph (or variations) who would have been nifty to name people after. (all the above imho, ymmv)

Algolei

12-31-2011, 11:33 PM

So he had a partial skeleton... added feet that weren't part of that skeleton but had been found in the same quarry... took a wild guess as to the head based on bits from three different quarries, mostly from an entirely different dinosaur that isn't even in the same family (the same order, suborder, and infraorder, different family and genus)... and thought he had discovered a new species. Apto is nowhere (imho, ymmv) as cool a name as Bronto, and so my sadness at what I was taught as a child turning out to be wrong. :tongue:

That wasn't science, that was showmanship! You might as well blame science for the fakes of Barnum and Bailey, too. :slapfight:

cnath.rm

01-01-2012, 12:07 AM

That wasn't science, that was showmanship! You might as well blame science for the fakes of Barnum and Bailey, too. :slapfight:Well that could work... except that apparently they are still doing the same thing and still calling it science. :tongue: I don't have so much of a problem if they want to do it, as long as they admit up front that it's best guess instead of rock solid truth.

hobbiteer

01-01-2012, 04:03 PM

I can't help but notice that you don't enumerate those "huge contribution[s]".

I'll try to hop on my computer later to get the links. The largest example I can think of is hypothermia responce and countermeasures. Acquired via horriffic means, but valid ways to combat hypothermia. Cnath.rm is 100% correct though. Doctors (and other scientists) are unsure if they should use the data.