Why Does An Official Setting Need Support?

[SHARK]

Greetings!

WTF????????

Oh, jeesus on a fucking pogo-stick! Fucking just shoot me now. Fucking morons are so fucking obtuse nowadays....god fucking damn, the morons that pose as fucking psuedo-intelligent people....asking questions like this??? I just can't believe it. Quesqetron must be smoking something. Later in the thread, like three posts down, some idiot says its because the fanbase is fucking insecure????? God....WTF, you know?

Link: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204628

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Maddman]

They think that games need 'official support' because they buy rulebooks like junkies buy crack, and need their fix of nerdporn every two months. I used to be like that and then realized that paying $30 for some "awesome suppliment" that one character uses one feat out of is not exactly the most bang for your buck. Most of the time I'd rather get a new game than a suppliment.

[francisca]

They think that games need 'official support' because they buy rulebooks like junkies buy crack, and need their fix of nerdporn every two months. I used to be like that and then realized that paying $30 for some "awesome suppliment" that one character uses one feat out of is not exactly the most bang for your buck. Most of the time I'd rather get a new game than a suppliment.

I'm with Maddman on this, 100%.

I'm quite happy with something like the 83 greyhawk boxed set. I really don't need "Belly Button Lint of the Gran March" and shit like that, nor do I want such things.

[FeatsofClay]

But if there isn't tons of 'support' and mounds of books and supplements how will I know I am cooler than you by virtue of my huge stack of barely thumbed dead trees?

[francisca]

But if there isn't tons of 'support' and mounds of books and supplements how will I know I am cooler than you by virtue of my huge stack of barely thumbed dead trees?

Sam4 r4ason som4 p4opl4 faitfully buy n4w 4ditions of old gam4s.

While I r4cogniz4 and appr4ciat4 the humorous snark, I'm going to give a serious answ4r, th4n go back to b4ing stupid.

I measure my success as a DM by my dedicated players, who keep coming back and clamoring for more. Pure and simple. People are there having a good time, and I don't care about anything else, edition/setting/system wars be fucking damned to hell gawddamnitmotherfucker.

[Dr_Avalanche]

I could see the need from a publisher's perspective - the need to produce some new crack to make sure my junkies aren't weened off it by the time I release the next big product. The dope parallell seems very apt to me.

But from any other perspective? I can't see it.

[Ergeheilalt]

I'd love to see some more support for Planescape. I love the setting and would kill to run a game myself (right now I only play) up on the planes. But if I want to know detailed locations on, say, Pandemonium, I have to either brew up something my own (which takes time and thought) or find some way of financing a second hand copy of Planes of Chaos and then convert all the crunchy stuff forward in to 3.5e.

That's a lot of work for somebody who doesn't like the prep work associated with DMing and isn't particularly good at converting between editions. It sucks to find something you really enjoy 10 years too late and having no recourse for obtaining the goodness associated with the product.

[Northcott]

I don't think an official setting needs support, but good follow-up books can add fantastic amounts of detail and make the GM's job much easier if done right.

One of the games that I thought did a great job of this was Harn: they gave you all the basic information in the core book, and then the follow-ups merely gave you layers of detail that helped generate stories and made travel more interesting. Towns no longer seemed generic, as they had the population described, any interesting features or historical notes given mention, a map laid out, etc. Castles were very realistic and had detailed floorplans, including where guards were stationed and how often one could be found there.

[BOZ]

Sam4 r4ason som4 p4opl4 faitfully buy n4w 4ditions of old gam4s.

While I r4cogniz4 and appr4ciat4 the humorous snark, I'm going to give a serious answ4r, th4n go back to b4ing stupid.

heh heh. that looks like a bunch of gibberish until i force myself to see the 4s as E's, at which point it becomes easy (though headache-inducing). ;)

[BOZ]

I'd love to see some more support for Planescape. I love the setting and would kill to run a game myself (right now I only play) up on the planes. But if I want to know detailed locations on, say, Pandemonium, I have to either brew up something my own (which takes time and thought) or find some way of financing a second hand copy of Planes of Chaos and then convert all the crunchy stuff forward in to 3.5e.

That's a lot of work for somebody who doesn't like the prep work associated with DMing and isn't particularly good at converting between editions. It sucks to find something you really enjoy 10 years too late and having no recourse for obtaining the goodness associated with the product.

one of the single best things that Planescape provided was details on planar locations. before that, such concepts tended to be handled quite vaguely.

[shabois]

There is always going to be supplements as this is a business for some. I for one don't mind such things if they are well done. When I was in school I had a shitload more time to design my on gaming shit. Now my time is much more restricted. I enjoy well done adventures or supplements that can spark ideas or that I can customize to games I run. I see it as a double edged sword. I don't support or by most of the drek that is shitted all over us. But there are some diamonds in the rough so to speak.

[Maddman]

I've not found that having a bunch of suppliments makes the game any easier to prep or run, it just adds more stuff to take into account.

[Janos]

I've found supplements let the players get more immersed in the world, but at the same time they put a bit of a yoke around the DM's neck. Depending on the DM that can be a good thing or a bad one, because many DMs don't put enough thought or elaboration into their worlds to really let anyone be a part of it.

Or they give it a once over treatment and 30 seconds worth of write-up, but nothing to give the players inspiration or really make them want to be more than gatecrashers in a dungeon, rather than movers or shakers in a world full of interesting people.

And having it published in a formal book gives players access to it, and a level of detail, that isn't conveyed well through the course of adventuring and actually playing.

I enjoy playing in a pre-established world more than any homebrew campaign, and I feel like my characters fit in better and were more a part of the world.

[ColonelHardisson]

A little fleshing out is good, but the incessant clamor for more "support" for a campaign setting has always struck me as obsessive-compulsive, especially when a campaign world is pronounced "dead" because it no longer has supplements coming out on a regular basis. It's only "dead" if no one plays in it.

The best examples of the stupidity of the "I need support!" mind set were the ones who were asking before it was published whether Ptolus - a huge book with online material, a CD full of other material, and at least one big module - would be receiving further support, because if not, they were unlikely to buy it even if the price tag didn't scare them off. How much more material do they fucking need? I refuse to believe they run through material that fast in actual play.

[Maddman]

I enjoy playing in a pre-established world more than any homebrew campaign, and I feel like my characters fit in better and were more a part of the world.

You have the same advantage in licensed games. Players in Buffy all know what a vampire turning to dust looks like, and those in Star Wars knows what a TIE fighter screeching by or a lightsaber fight is like. You just have to strike a balance, enough of the established setting to make the players feel a part of it, but not enough to make the game feel constrained. I do it by keeping the PCs far from the canon material - for instance in Star Wars they will not be anywhere near the Battle of Yavin. What are they going to do, wax Luke's X-Wing before he blows up the Death Star? For a good gaming setting you need plenty of other room. Star Wars is a big galaxy, so this is no problem.

[shabois]

I think you need to pick and choose supplements and adventures to your tastes. Most are shit but some have some value and can enhance your game. I do agree one of the main negatives is that your players have access to them as well. But I know in m group my players are mature enough not to waste money buying an adventure just to cheat during a game.

[Janos]

You just have to strike a balance, enough of the established setting to make the players feel a part of it, but not enough to make the game feel constrained...For a good gaming setting you need plenty of other room.

Yup, exactly. I don't need a huge pile of new materials, but it is nice to see some additional support over time. I think they overdid FR a bit in 3e with obscure regional books where general ones would have done fine, but the core FR product lines were excellent (Magic, Monsters, Races, Gods, plus main supplement) is just about right for FR for a long time to come. FRCS had all the adventure hooks and plot devices anyone would ever need.

[Dacke]

I think they overdid FR a bit in 3e with obscure regional books where general ones would have done fine, but the core FR product lines were excellent (Magic, Monsters, Races, Gods, plus main supplement) is just about right for FR for a long time to come.
One thing I hope they do for 4e FR is to at least give some thought to the Heartlands - the Dales, Cormyr, the Moonsea (Mysteries of the Moonsea was more of an adventure anthology, right?), Sembia, the Vast, and especially the Western Heartlands.

Hell, the only book that's come out on the Western Heartlands in the 20 or so years since the grey box is a Volo's Guide.

Of course, they shouldn't focus exclusively on the heartlands, but maybe one heartlands sourcebook for every "exotic" one.

Oh, and one more thing: the 3e FR god book, Faiths & Pantheons, was not excellent as you said. It is probably the one FR book I have that I'm the least happy with. Wasting maybe half or so of the book on stats for the gods should earn whomever made that decision a public flogging (I'm told the writer was mostly innocent, and just did what his boss told him).

[TiQuinn]

For me, the question of support became an non-issue with OGL and all the other companies that started putting out stuff that was compatible with d20. I don't really need things to be supported per se, but as long as I kind find stuff that is easily adaptable, I'm happy. I also think it depends on the setting. Greyhawk isn't difficult to modify stuff for. Planescape or Dark Sun is another matter.

[Janos]

Hell, the only book that's come out on the Western Heartlands in the 20 or so years since the grey box is a Volo's Guide.

Wasn't Cormyr post grey box?

Oh, and one more thing: the 3e FR god book, Faiths & Pantheons, was not excellent as you said. It is probably the one FR book I have that I'm the least happy with. Wasting maybe half or so of the book on stats for the gods should earn whomever made that decision a public flogging (I'm told the writer was mostly innocent, and just did what his boss told him).

I agree actually; I didn't meant content so much as general subject, the topic of gods and cosmology in general was a good choice for a book.

[Dacke]

Wasn't Cormyr post grey box?
Western Heartlands refers to the region west of Cormyr/Dalelands, north of Amn, and south of Waterdeep. Sometimes known as the Sword Coast, although it goes a little further inland than that. Plenty of independent city-states (like Baldur's Gate and Iriaebor), but no big nations.

[EhtoZed]

It's kind of silly to say a setting doesn't need support. While it's certainly possible to do a one off succesfully (green ronin's a good example), you don't usually publish a setting without planning to expand it. Although it's always easy to go too far. The Forgotten Realms is a good example of this.

[Janos]

Western Heartlands refers to the region west of Cormyr/Dalelands, north of Amn, and south of Waterdeep. Sometimes known as the Sword Coast, although it goes a little further inland than that. Plenty of independent city-states (like Baldur's Gate and Iriaebor), but no big nations.

They've never gotten heavy coverage, but a lot of the city-states have had treatment in other books.

Baldur's Gate had a sourcebook
Darkhold got extensive treatment in various Zhentarium sources
Evereska got treatment in Evermeet

Granted Iriaebor and Scornubel are always gets forgotten.

[Dacke]

Yeah, but other than the Volo's Guide, there's never been a look at the whole region.

[doc]

What was the city that sunk, had a couple of novels about it ?

[Lucita]

I don't know about anyone else, but I read the books recreationally as much as I do for games. So it's sorta nice to have a new book come out for my favorite settings/games, because that's more stuff to read. If Planescape or Ravenloft books were still coming out I'd be snatching those up non-stop.

[doc]

Did you get the Demonweb Pits experdition book ? That has some planscape in it

[Janos]

If Planescape or Ravenloft books were still coming out I'd be snatching those up non-stop.

Ravenloft is being relaunched with the first book being written by Laurell K. Hamilton. Just what the setting needed! Strahd porn!

[Lucita]

Ravenloft is being relaunched with the first book being written by Laurell K. Hamilton. Just what the setting needed! Strahd porn!

*twitch*

Silly Janos. That's just a wild internet rumor. Next thing I know you'll be saying there was more than one Highlander movie...

[Ditto.]

I dunno I am close with a former memeber and a current member of the Keoland Triad so I will share their response.

It was long over due. Greyhawk in their opinion was kinda growing stale, and they would have liked some cannon to fall back on. The plots and metaplots in the regions are entirely the triads responsiblity. Some source material would have been good.

[Keeper of Secrets]

Limited support is nice. But for the most part I look at Greyhawk vs Forgotten Realms and my love of Grayhawk is preserved by the fact that (among other reasons) it was NOT loaded down with a company's vision of how things should go. Grayhawk, for the most part gave you a setting and let you figure it out. FR kept dumping more crap on the market that by the end it seemed bloated and out of control.

[Ditto.]

I agree a limited support is nice.

Greyhawk in my opinion and maybe this was just Living Greyhawk was too low fantasy for me.

[Keeper of Secrets]

I agree a limited support is nice.

Greyhawk in my opinion and maybe this was just Living Greyhawk was too low fantasy for me.


See, whereas I never got that sense (entirely) I always liked GH because it was so open for different possibilities, unlike FR where it seems your characters are hardly needed - why not just ask the 1500 retired adventurers who own all the taverns, inns, wagons trains and merchant shops. Jeez, retired adventurers alone could solve all of FR's problems.

[shabois]

The main problem with Fr in a nutshell. IT was an Ed Greenwood vanity project. Elminster was his personal character- suprise! He is the most powerful mage in the world. Ed must of rubbed one out every night people bought his game and worshiped his character.

[Keeper of Secrets]

The main problem with Fr in a nutshell. IT was an Ed Greenwood vanity project. Elminster was his personal character- suprise! He is the most powerful mage in the world. Ed must of rubbed one out every night people bought his game and worshiped his character.

Speaking of Ed, I saw him at dinner and GenCon. Speaking of rubbing one out, I need to log off now.

[Maddman]

Speaking of Ed, I saw him at dinner and GenCon. Speaking of rubbing one out, I need to log off now.

I didn't know Greenwood affected you so.

[Limper]

I didn't know Greenwood affected you so.

You didn't know?

Keeper hasn't washed his back in 10 years ever since Ed Greenwood did a money shot on it after buggering him.