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View Full Version : Why CR = Level for NPCs is bullshit


Dacke
08-18-2007, 03:21 PM
One thing that's been bugging me for a long while about 3e is that they decided that the CR of an Xth level NPC is equal to X. I now intend to show that this is, indeed, bullshit.

Let us take a 4th level fighter, Dirk. He has 50 hp (rolled well, high Con), AC 18, +7 to hit with his greatsword, which does 2d6+3 damage.

Dirk is, stupidly enough, exploring a dungeon on his own. Since his DM is a prick, the first thing he does is run in to a Mirror of Opposition, creating his evil twin Krid. Krid, of course, has the same stats.

Statistically, Dirk had a 50% chance of hitting Krid (11+ on d20), and will do an average of 10 points per hit (ignoring crits). That's an average of 5 hp per round of combat. Krid's chances of hitting Dirk are, of course, the same. This means that Dirk and Krid basically have a 50% chance of winning, and the winner will likely be severely hurt after the ten rounds the fight will likely take.

Now, let's say that Dirk brought his brother Dick on the dungeon sojourn. Dick has the same stats as Dirk, but was smart enough not to look into the Mirror. Now Krid will be taking 10 points of damage on average per round instead of 5. Krid will almost certainly die in 5 rounds of combat, and during this time he will have inflicted 25 points of damage on Dirk. That's only a quarter of Dirk's and Dick's combined hp.

This shows that if you're going up two against one, and the stats are equal, you will on average lose one quarter of your resources. That's in a simplified scenario that ignores synergy effects - if Dick had instead been a rogue, he would have been able to sneak attack Krid, ending the fight even faster. Hell, even with two fighters, you would have gotten the occasional flanking bonus and such.

Now, say that Dirk also brought Bob and Tim. Even if they too are equal to Dirk thus avoiding synergy issues, it will mean Krid taking 20 points of damage per round, thus only allowing him to deal 10-15 points or so before he dies (1/4 of Dirk's hp, and 1/16th of the whole party's).

The idea of CR is that, for a 4-person party of level X, an encounter with CR X should consume 1/4 of their resources. Here I have shown that a fight with an Xth level NPC will more likely only consume 1/16th of their resources, and possibly even less due to synergies and stuff.

This also ignores that NPCs are inherently weaker than PCs, for multiple reasons. NPCs are assumed to use the somewhat gimpy "elite" stat array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), which is significantly inferior to the average results of rolling 4d6 and dropping the lowest, and NPCs have far less equipment than PCs (a 5th level NPC has 4,300 gp worth of gear, whereas a 5th level PC has 9,000 gp). Also, NPCs have the disadvantage of being played by the DM, who also have multiple other things to worry about, thus preventing him from using them to their fullest potential.

Limper
08-20-2007, 01:32 PM
Very well done... you need a hobby.

Pigs in Space
08-20-2007, 01:39 PM
His current hobby is providing you with a way to eke out the working day limper.

Limper
08-20-2007, 01:40 PM
His current hobby is providing you with a way to eke out the working day limper.

Oh then by all means continue.

Dacke
08-20-2007, 02:41 PM
Very well done... you need a hobby.
I do have a hobby. Besides, I thought up most of that rant while at work (delivering papers, which doesn't exactly require a lot of thought).

Here's a bonus:
The CR system is based on the assumption that during one day, you will have four encounters, each of which costs you about 25% of your resources (hp and spells). This means that essentially, the first three encounters appear meaningless, or rather your progress in them doesn't matter until the fourth (when you figure out that if you had had 15 more hp left, you would have survived the death blow).

However, this resource-management approach to encounter design is destroyed by another part of the system, described in five little words:

Wand of cure light wounds.

A wand of CLW costs 750 gp if you buy one (or 375 gp + 30 XP if you make it yourself). That's for 50 charges, each healing 1d8+1 hp (average 5.5). 275 hp, for 750 gp - that's less than 3 gp per hp.

What it does is let you say "Oh, that ogre hit me for 20 out of my 35 hp. Zap me four times with the wand." Thus, the "cost" for the battle with the ogre changes from 20 hp, or maybe two or three of the cleric's daily spells, into 60 gp. This lets the fighter-types (and rogues) essentially face every encounter at full strength, it's just the spellcasters who get depleted by successive encounters.

Steampunk
08-20-2007, 03:19 PM
I think there is a fatal flaw in the CR system in that it should not be applied to NPCs with classes. If a party of 4 5th level adventurers run into their evil twins, then if you follow the rules of increasing the CR based on the composition of the party, the enemy party would be considered CR7 or 9 (I don't have the book handy), but then, at the same time, the other party would view the same CR.

In order for this to work with the current CR system, using it as is, the same 5th level party would have to fight a CR5 encounter, which according to the rules, would be one person, say, a 5th level Wizard. Yeah, that's a fair fight.

Meanwhile, same 5th level party runs into a troll (CR5) then that is considered a fair fight.

Freedom Canadian
08-20-2007, 06:46 PM
Well, all you have to do to realize that it doesn't work is to look at the Monster Manual, where a lot of monsters cast spells like a sorcerer of a level higher than their CR AND they fight a lot better AND they have extra abilities on top of that.

Basically, PC type characters are usually easy to beat and they give a lot of XPs and a lot of loot.

Maddman
08-20-2007, 06:49 PM
CR is for newb DMs whose games are little more than a string of related combats. I don't pay it any mind at all to be honest.

This was your pretentious gamer comment of the day.

Freedom Canadian
08-20-2007, 06:53 PM
D&D is for newb gamers whose games are little more than a string of related combats. I don't pay it any mind at all to be honest.

This was your pretentious gamer comment of the day.

FIFY