Change

[Utrecht]

Question for the Obama supporters - from what I gather, one of his biggest appeals is the concept of change.

What change do you see him bringing about? and do you feel that his history (coming up through the Chicago political machine) is conductive to change?

And by extension do you feel that the label of McCain as McSame is fair - do you see him as extending the current model another 4 years?

[FeatsofClay]

What change do you see him bringing about? and do you feel that his history (coming up through the Chicago political machine) is conductive to change?

Compared to the current administration I see big changes, but not CHANGE in all capitals as it si being sold. Sorta like Clinton Vista. :)



And by extension do you feel that the label of McCain as McSame is fair - do you see him as extending the current model another 4 years?


Pretty much, with minor differences.

[Ink Bleeder]

I think the economy would turn around under Obama, and I'm convinced it would continue to tank under McCain. There's just too much evidence and history proving that Republicans create an enormous wage gap and can't balance the budget.

As for social issues - I don't think Obama will big-C change the issues that matter the most to me. Alas. But I also don't think they'll get worse in his term.

[Utrecht]

Compared to the current administration I see big changes, but not CHANGE in all capitals as it si being sold. Sorta like Clinton Vista. :)

I agree with this - perhaps not as big as you are thinking - especially since many of the things that he is wanting are actually controlled by the legislative branch - and perhaps that is the reason - they will be friendly to Obama as opposed to hostile towards Bush


Pretty much, with minor differences.

Fair enough - now do you feel that this is due to McCain's plank or due to the fact that he (like Bush) will be facing a hostile congress?

I think the economy would turn around under Obama, and I'm convinced it would continue to tank under McCain. There's just too much evidence and history proving that Republicans create an enormous wage gap and can't balance the budget.

I see this as two things:

1) part of the normal cycle of economics - had this election occured during 2006 (or 2010) the economy would likely not be a driving issue.
2) Republican fiscal irresponsability (lets cut income and increase spending!) I see McCain changing this somewhat (at least the spending part). Further, at the macro level - both Obama and McCain's economic policies are very similar


As for social issues - I don't think Obama will big-C change the issues that matter the most to me. Alas. But I also don't think they'll get worse in his term.

and here is another example where having a split government is a good thing - McCain could not push through a judge with a different ideology than the one they are replacing - and that is a good thing.

[FeatsofClay]

Fair enough - now do you feel that this is due to McCain's plank or due to the fact that he (like Bush) will be facing a hostile congress?

.


Which McCain plank? he has had huge reversals on multiple issues. The John McCain of 8 year ago would be in a fist-fight with the McCain currently running. I believe this reversal is a symptom of him not being able to get the office without backing if people who feel the way he claims to feel now. These same groups and influential people are the ones who helped the current administration in.

Same backers- Same policies. And I see current policies as disastrous.

[PWD]

Fair enough - now do you feel that this is due to McCain's plank or due to the fact that he (like Bush) will be facing a hostile congress?

The hostile congress is a red herring. Bush and his cadre of big brains turned them hostile. While there was always partisan separation and bickering, Bush's "uniting" influence is what really set things in stone.

For McCain to have gotten the nomination when just short months ago he was still being roundly villified by the party mechanism you know he's brokered deals. The same power players are using the same tricks this go around on his behalf as they did with Bush.

None of this lends credence to his claims of independence or reform. If he's already beholden to the same old forces before the election's even held, he'll be sold lock stock and barrel by the time he got into office.

Obama may be no better, but he's certainly different. After eight years of Bush, different is what you and the world need.

[Utrecht]

The hostile congress is a red herring. Bush and his cadre of big brains turned them hostile. While there was always partisan separation and bickering, Bush's "uniting" influence is what really set things in stone.

OK, fair - and it is a cycle that needs to be broken


For McCain to have gotten the nomination when just short months ago he was still being roundly villified by the party mechanism you know he's brokered deals. The same power players are using the same tricks this go around on his behalf as they did with Bush.

None of this lends credence to his claims of independence or reform. If he's already beholden to the same old forces before the election's even held, he'll be sold lock stock and barrel by the time he got into office.


More on this - is this a gut feel? and what interests do you see him being beholden to?


Obama may be no better, but he's certainly different. After eight years of Bush, different is what you and the world need.

More than fair - change for change sake is certainly a vaible voting strategy.

[PWD]

More on this - is this a gut feel? and what interests do you see him being beholden to?

Supposition.

I obviously can't say for certain who he's sold out to and to what degree, but look at the marked turnaround from violent opposition to support from the christian conservatives. The Rove-ites who spent all of the leadup to 2000 tearing him down and then ostracizing him through 2004 now are fully engaged in supporting him.

Where early in the war he fought for larger troop deployments and finishing the job in afghanistan and got shouted down for his unpatriotic questioning of Bush, he then turned into one of Bush's biggest vocal supporters and worked his way back into favor among the Republican think tankers.

He's worked very hard over the last 4 years to turn his image around within the republican party, and given the violence of their opposition to him so shortly back, he must have made promises. There's simply no other way. Obama is simply not that threatening a democratic contender in the ways other candidates have been. For all the Coulters and Limbaughs will scream he's the leftest of the left, they say that about everybody. He's actually pretty damn centrist, and is clearly not a harbinger of doom for America.

Without Stalin coming out of his grave to mobilize the Republican base, it falls to McCain's deal-making to have done so.

He's stepped away from so many of his long-held stances in the last 4 years, he's a shell of who he used to be.

[Utrecht]

Supposition.

I obviously can't say for certain who he's sold out to and to what degree, but look at the marked turnaround from violent opposition to support from the christian conservatives. The Rove-ites who spent all of the leadup to 2000 tearing him down and then ostracizing him through 2004 now are fully engaged in supporting him.

Where early in the war he fought for larger troop deployments and finishing the job in afghanistan and got shouted down for his unpatriotic questioning of Bush, he then turned into one of Bush's biggest vocal supporters and worked his way back into favor among the Republican think tankers.

He's worked very hard over the last 4 years to turn his image around within the republican party, and given the violence of their opposition to him so shortly back, he must have made promises. There's simply no other way. Obama is simply not that threatening a democratic contender in the ways other candidates have been. For all the Coulters and Limbaughs will scream he's the leftest of the left, they say that about everybody. He's actually pretty damn centrist, and is clearly not a harbinger of doom for America.

Without Stalin coming out of his grave to mobilize the Republican base, it falls to McCain's deal-making to have done so.

He's stepped away from so many of his long-held stances in the last 4 years, he's a shell of who he used to be.

How is the embracing of McCain by the Rovite Republicans any different than the embracing of Obama by the Hillarites? For all of the talk of PUMAs - the Dems seem pretty well in synch.

For the Republicans - it was the selection of Palin that was the bellweather event- even up until last Tuesday, the part eldars were decidely meh if not hostile - until they pushed him away from Leiberman. So, there is certainly influence there - but I am not feeling the smoke filled deals that you are implying.

[PWD]

How is the embracing of McCain by the Rovite Republicans any different than the embracing of Obama by the Hillarites? For all of the talk of PUMAs - the Dems seem pretty well in synch.

The Hillarites haven't blanket embraced him, for one. They were an odd bunch, and many were only supporting her because of her vagina, not her politics. That support didn't translate well to Obama. Some of them sure, but not nearly as much as he'd have liked. Also, the hadn't predicated their entire four years on what a complete disaster Obama would be for them. The Rove-ites and conservatives have done with regards to McCain.

For the Republicans - it was the selection of Palin that was the bellweather event- even up until last Tuesday, the part eldars were decidely meh if not hostile - until they pushed him away from Leiberman. So, there is certainly influence there - but I am not feeling the smoke filled deals that you are implying.

Then I submit you're not factoring just how much space there had been between McCain and the Christian Cons over the last 8+ years. Not mild disagreement, deep angry stuff. Selecting one of them for one, and the immediate swooning turnaround for another are not events that occur out of nowhere. Deals were struck, and promises were made.

[AZRogue]

People who are displeased with the way things are being ran now want someone to go in and "fix" things. There's an element of hope to that desire. Obama is certainly different and people are going to be attracted to that difference. Probably afraid it will make little impact, positively, on their lives, fiercely hoping they're wrong.