Political Honesty - As put forth by PWD

[AZRogue]

PWD put forth an interesting idea (not unique, but something that probably hasn't been done recently) over on the CM board. LINK. (http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?t=48880)

Assume we had a thread or even a subforum, and the rules were no partisan attackdog trolling, no stupid bullshit like everywhere else, just honest back and forth political discourse. Why is it you feel this way type stuff. You may not agree, you may never convert someone to your view, but they'd have a chance to get it if they chose.

You know, this whole politics forum minus the same old crap.

Could it even work? I've seen it done on other forums where folks honestly set aside their assumptions and desire to hit back and talk, some of them even post here.

Now, I'm perfectly happy to keep slinging shit right back at Wil all day long, the two of us are entertained and who gives a fuck about the rest really, but there are unintended casualties in the crossfire that you'd on occasion like to have an honest discourse with.

F'rex, I think there's real possibility of discussion with Hobo, Ovi, GG, and others. They just step into a Wil exchange more often than not and end up getting pasted with the same attacks that are going around after Wil stirs it all up. Even Wil, if you catch him in an honest moment, is perfectly capable of good discussion. He just enjoys the other shit too much to go cold turkey. And if he's firing bombs, people are gonna retalliate with nukes. That's how she goes.

Now, I am not trying to say that Kay's is even close to the same tone as that found on the CM board (where I visit every few months or so and have only just posted), but I think that his idea could work very well here since the people here tend to be more respectful on average. I don't know most of the people on CM but I remember most of the people here. Putting my beliefs in order, sorting them to see what has changed and what remains the same, is something I enjoy doing from time to time.

I think it would be interesting to try PWD's idea here, in this thread, if anyone else is willing. No hyperbole, no slams, no attacks, just a discussion between people that can respect differing viewpoints held by others.

Now, as I'm sure some remember, I'm a conservative, though I'm much more a Libertarian than a Republican. I'm going to detail a few things that I believe (just to start things off, unless someone beats me to it) but am going to order my thoughts before I do (after I watch the RNC). Probably won't lay out everything at once, as a several page editorial is hardly something to encourage posters to respond, but I'll lay out some of the primary ones.

EDIT: Looking at it, I think this is a variation on PWD's idea as his vision was much larger and broader, and mine is more a back and forth since I'm a conservative and I want to better understand some of the liberal beliefs and I want to, maybe, better articulate what I believe. I think, for the most part, that we have, here, PWD's idea of a forum where people don't sling the same shit at each other. Kay's doesn't need a forum for that.

[FeatsofClay]

I think it would be interesting to try PWD's idea here, in this thread, if anyone else is willing. No hyperbole, no slams, no attacks, just a discussion between people that can respect differing viewpoints held by others.

Some people are always trying this. Unless the minority who won't attempt this level of discussion volunteer or an admin uses an iron fist it will not work.

That said, I would love it.

[PWD]

Honestly, the relative high road taken here (and I do say relative, let's not kid ourselves that more generally liberal voices in usual agreement and the lack of one major troll is the same thing as true civility) is what got me thinking.

I know that I have restrained myself here from giving the verbal smackdown to some things that have struck me as completely wrongheaded because I do not want to shit this place up. I enjoy you folks and I'm serious about not going down old paths.

What I was kinda getting at is that say you get to meet with and talk to Wil/Izzy in a non-board context. Have a beer and you find he's a good guy. Talk about politics in a direct way allowing for different viewpoints without the "SHITCOCK" impulses on the net. That's more interesting to me the older I get. Sure, I still enjoy a good epic smackdown, but I do actually prefer some substantive discussion here and there.. in moderation. :)

Actually talking to people instead of strawmen may not change anything, but it's more interesting.

[Teve]

would be great. I love real discussion of ideas, without the flames, and the hate. Some of my favorite people to talk politics with are complete opposites on many issues.

[FeatsofClay]

What I was kinda getting at is that say you get to meet with and talk to Wil/Izzy in a non-board context. Have a beer and you find he's a good guy. Talk about politics in a direct way allowing for different viewpoints without the "SHITCOCK" impulses on the net. That's more interesting to me the older I get. Sure, I still enjoy a good epic smackdown, but I do actually prefer some substantive discussion here and there.. in moderation. :)


UIf I have my prersonalities and stories straight I have had Wil/Izzy in my home and had decent conversation. (studio actually, he was allergic to the animals) He was a fun evening and polite houseguest. And he introduced me to Kingdoms.

I just don't understand being a permanent troll.

[PWD]

I've gone through periods myself. Work or home stress is high, and a good punchout is a good stress-reliever... and there are some people it's just plain fun to bother the living shit out of and watch them work themselves into a frenzy. In Wil's specific case, he's posting there anyhow for GG and there are a lot of people at CM who deserve nothing better than utter scorn, so it's a rich target environment for him.

Unlike NTL, very few people have the skills to stand up to him.

[Name Lips]

Gods, they haven't figured him out yet? The trick is to never take him seriously. Assume everything he says is a joke, and then play along with it. Once you start responding to him in any kind of serious way, you've lost.

[PWD]

Some have, some are still wide-eyed bunnies wondering what's going on around them.

[Lisa Nadazdy]

It's one of the reasons I don't like posting- the partisan sniping that seems to insinuate that the other side isn't just of a differing opinion, but in fact, they're the enemy, and coming to anything smelling like a compromise is something traitors do. Our side is right, the other side is wrong, and the side that's wrong must be destroyed. That kinf of language and dialog is polarizing the country and ruining any kind of real discourse; I mean, why talk things out when you don't have to, seems to be the attitude.

[Trainz]

My true political feelings?

I deeply, DEEPLY want the repubs to get a huge smackdown after allowing what happened in the past 8 years.

I gleefully enjoy what they are going through at the moment.

But deep down, I don't really know Palin and McCain. In fact, I don't even know if Obama isn't a phony, and that McCain could be what the world really needs.

I have very little info on Obama. Why do I want him elected? Because his speach demonstrates a high intellect, and because he's black.

Yup, you heard me.

I think symbolic things, like having a black president, would go a long way in general social evolution.

I just hope he isn't a Thatcher. Because if he is, he will actually hurt the social evolution process than help it.

[AZRogue]

Personally, I think that it's very unfortunate that we only have two real political parties in America. To be frank, I don't think either party is really representing the average American any more. They've both polarized themselves so much, drawn battle lines and manned their defenses for so long, that they've drifted too far away from the middle to really, either one, lay claim to the ideals of Americans today.

Instead, I think most Americans drift back and forth from party to party, over the years, waiting for something they're not finding. Americans, IMO, are tired of corruption and lies going hand in hand with politics and they have become extremely cynical seeing candidate after candidate give in to special interest groups. I have, at least. Am I a good representative of the average American? Probably not, but I think I am for a substantial number of Americans.

To be honest, I'm disappointed in our government as a whole.

[Utrecht]

I would like to think that this is the tone that I have taken consistently respectful - the only time that I deviate is when someone is being a complete asshat - and I will call them on it.

[Trainz]

I would like to think that this is the tone that I have taken consistently respectful - the only time that I deviate is when someone is being a complete asshat - and I will call them on it.

It is quite noticeable, and refreshing coming from a Rep. You're more often than not objective, and more often than not unpartisan in your remarks. You slip from time to time, but I slip worse.

[Utrecht]

It is quite noticeable, and refreshing coming from a Rep. You're more often than not objective, and more often than not unpartisan in your remarks. You slip from time to time, but I slip worse.


you are one of the occasional asshats :). Singularity is the other I call out.

[Janos]

No hyperbole, no slams, no attacks, just a discussion between people that can respect differing viewpoints held by others.

My true political feelings?

I deeply, DEEPLY want the repubs to get a huge smackdown after allowing what happened in the past 8 years.

I gleefully enjoy what they are going through at the moment.

Wow, not even a page into the thread. That may not be an attack on an individual, but the moment you come out attacking an entire party and talk about gleefully wanting them to suffer, you're going to provoke defensive reactions and it'll degenerate from there.

[PWD]

I have to figure some honesty about our biases and the grudges we bear needs to be admitted and acknowledged.

There's a lot of things I don't understand from the outside... for instance I've seen republicans raising taxes and wasting far more government money than democrats in recent decades yet the tired old argument is always "Democrats want to raise your taxes and piss away the money!".

That simply cannot stand up in the face of reality, and yet it's still embedded deep in a lot of republican support. Talking about it and why is a good thing right?

If I admit I have a problem with... i dunno... jewish taco stand guys (are there such a thing), does that close off debate, or give us a beginning point from which to understand my admitted bias and talk around it?

[Limper]

Personally, I think that it's very unfortunate that we only have two real political parties in America. To be frank, I don't think either party is really representing the average American any more. They've both polarized themselves so much, drawn battle lines and manned their defenses for so long, that they've drifted too far away from the middle to really, either one, lay claim to the ideals of Americans today.

Instead, I think most Americans drift back and forth from party to party, over the years, waiting for something they're not finding. Americans, IMO, are tired of corruption and lies going hand in hand with politics and they have become extremely cynical seeing candidate after candidate give in to special interest groups. I have, at least. Am I a good representative of the average American? Probably not, but I think I am for a substantial number of Americans.

To be honest, I'm disappointed in our government as a whole.

Perfectly stated. I agree completely.

[Name Lips]

I usually try to keep the vitriol down, or at least, to make it obvious when I'm using hyperbole for effect.

[Janos]

If I admit I have a problem with... i dunno... jewish taco stand guys (are there such a thing), does that close off debate, or give us a beginning point from which to understand my admitted bias and talk around it?

I think delivery is everything.

A well spoken post in which you outline your problems and are open to feedback is going to provoke debate even if the opinion in it is one which most people disagree with. The best point in the world delivered with an abrasive tone is going to shut down debate faster than anything else.

Nothing makes me take a poster in a political forum less seriously than constant sarcasm, hyperbole, or attacks. A couple of posts like that and it doesn't matter how good their point is, people stop listening to them.

[PWD]

I think delivery is everything. A well spoken post in which you outline your problems and are open to feedback is going to provoke debate even if the opinion in it is one which most people disagree with.

The best point in the world delivered with an abrasive tone is going to shut down debate faster than anything else.

Certainly. "I hope all you republican fuckers suffer for what you did to us" isn't terribly useful.

On the other hand, "I have to admit a certain joy in seeing the republican discomfort this time around given the recent past, and it certainly colors my view of the subject, however this is how I see it..." can work.

[Janos]

On the other hand, "I have to admit a certain joy in seeing the republican discomfort this time around given the recent past, and it certainly colors my view of the subject, however this is how I see it..." can work.

I suppose we're degenerating into a discussion of communication styles. For me, if that's all that's said, with no real basis of why, and a series of posts just like that, it quickly becomes irritating or background noise.

It's not quite Ad hominem, but it's close enough that there is no real reply to be made to it. Statements like that are just an expression of anger and disgust, not a topic open to discussion or a viewpoint to talk about and provide an alternative to. They add nothing constructive to the thread, and do have the possibility of offending someone and turning the thread defensive.

[Schizm]

For Instance: "You republicans who re-elected bush need to rot in a deep dark hole while the sodomy squirrels make playtime with your hemherroids" is not functional.

On the other hand, I would like to point out that, given the economic state of the union in the last four years, the rise in social conservatism, the "liberties" taken with other freedoms protected by the constitution, and the generally divisive tone of the current stateside political process, that from my point of view, voting republican seems like an acceptance of those problems engendered during bush's administration, and a denial of the entire reason political parties exist. While both parties are playing the change card as hard as they possibly can right now, I feel that everyone in the united states should pay attention to the actual history of the last twenty years and discuss the parties as a whole - because no candidate is running in a vaccum. Yes, both candidates are from the political parties, which means that they do carry all the baggage of those parties - and the last twenty years is, in my mind, a good sample of how each of those parties will behave in office. My choice here becomes to vote for the democrats, because voting republican, especially after that party's behavior over the last eight years, strikes me as particularly insane - taking the same action, in the same way, and expecting different results.

[PWD]

They add nothing constructive to the thread, and do have the possibility of offending someone and turning the thread defensive.

They provide context. If someone's genuinely trying to get their view across and not looking to shit in cornflakes it'll naturally be reined in.

As a f'rex, I read things out of Goblin Girl that tell me her perception of democrats is very skewed from what I see. Every issue is filtered through some experience she has that I don't, and it's highly evident in some deep-seated resentment she holds.

If she puts the resentment and the reasons for it out there, it doesn't make me want to adopt her position, but it does help me understand it a bit, and it does provide an avenue for discussion. Without that, all you can do is throw up your hands and shake your head in confusion.

It's all in how it's done, and the why, and pretty clearly there are ways to get outside it very easily.

[Name Lips]

How about a thread/forum when people are requird to post over the top vitriol, but the subsequent person has to translate it into a reasonable, well thought out opinion before responding to it with his own vitriol, and so on. If anybody turns the previous poster's post into a mockery or farce, then they lose. They have to turn it into a serious, intelligent opinion.

[PWD]

That's just another way to escalate the exchange of snark and occasional hurt feelings. We have plenty of both already, it's the internet.

The whole question arose out of disgust at our apparent inability to drop the fists and just talk.

[Janos]

If she puts the resentment and the reasons for it out there, it doesn't make me want to adopt her position, but it does help me understand it a bit, and it does provide an avenue for discussion. Without that, all you can do is throw up your hands and shake your head in confusion.

If it's not a beaten horse, that's true. But the internet is by definition home to those with too much free time. So the same things get said again and again. That takes it from context to mindlessly beating the horse or grinding the axe.

It's all in how it's done, and the why, and pretty clearly there are ways to get outside it very easily.

True, and depending on the person, they can get away with a lot more because of how they deliever it.

[Trainz]

Wow, not even a page into the thread. That may not be an attack on an individual, but the moment you come out attacking an entire party and talk about gleefully wanting them to suffer, you're going to provoke defensive reactions and it'll degenerate from there.


Wow yourself. Did you bother reading the rest of my post? At all???

Utrecht go it.

[Trainz]

That's just another way to escalate the exchange of snark and occasional hurt feelings. We have plenty of both already, it's the internet.

The whole question arose out of disgust at our apparent inability to drop the fists and just talk.

Well I did, but Janos here jumped the gun.

[Lady Fury]

you are one of the occasional asshats :). Singularity is the other I call out.

Singularity isn't as bad in real life as he is on the boards when it comes to over the top views on things. Let's not forget, he did fall in love and married a Christian conservative Republican chick. He'll debate with me all day long if I'd let him but he does realize that we are both are entitled to our views and that neither one of us truly expect to change the others opinion. I think we're both beginning to drift more towards the middle when it comes to politics.

The main reason I don't like to discuss politics in length on these boards is because I'm in the minority and it sometimes feels like everyone is ganging up on me. That's not a fun feeling so I usually just sit back from the sidelines and watch the show go on.

[FeatsofClay]

it sometimes feels like everyone is ganging up on me. That's not a fun feeling....


Some ladies like that. :naughty:

[Lady Fury]

Some ladies like that. :naughty:

Political kink isn't my thing. :tongue:

[Sobek]

I'd love to see an "straight-shooters" room. The whole political flamewar was fun for a while, but there's a reason I don't pop up all the time anymore. Yes, I don't have the time, but I've also gotten tired of bitching at people who I doubt will ever see things the same way I do.

This place floats generally left, which is fine. There's still lots of good folk here who are funny and have good ideas on lots of topics. But, there seems to be a fair amount of genuine hostility in the political arena. What point is there to being anything but a troll if the reaction to an honest, but conservative, thought is a virtual lynching?

Taking global warming, for a second, as something I'm a skeptic on: It seems like the last thread on the topic started with something like "Why won't these idiots learn, already?" Uh-huh. Well, that's one of the things that keeps me from buying in -- every "discussion" on the matter comes with an equal measure of asshole.

Note: I'm totally exhaused. Please excuse incoherence and look for the point. ;)

[AZRogue]

Eh, I'm not sure an entire sub-room would be needed. I think here, at least, just the intention mentioned in the post would help, probably. In general we should, IMO, take the tone of the thread as put forth in the OP as the tone to keep. No one should be lying in wait to jump on someone just because they don't agree with them unless that poster started a thread in that tone. Hard to quantify, I suppose, but I know what I mean. :p

I intend to post more of my conservative ideas and opinions, as I can, just because I find myself interested in talking about them sometimes. I just wanted a general heads up, I guess, so that the conversations might have a chance to grow instead of degenerating before their time.

[Janos]

Wow yourself. Did you bother reading the rest of my post? At all???

I read it but didn't take it seriously, not when you opened with a blanket insult.

As I said above to PWD, you've beaten the horse to death with your constant hostility toward Republicans. Everyone who frequents political discussions around here is well aware by now of your long standing issues with the current administration and the Republican party. No one needs context on it at this point and it adds nothing to the discussion.

[Trainz]

I read it but didn't take it seriously, not when you opened with a blanket insult.

As I said above to PWD, you've beaten the horse to death with your constant hostility toward Republicans. Everyone who frequents political discussions around here is well aware by now of your long standing issues with the current administration and the Republican party. No one needs context on it at this point and it adds nothing to the discussion.

I admitted my own limited knowledge, and admitted that I could be wrong for all I know.

Past that, I don't know how more honest I could be. What you want me to do is say "You know what, the cons aren't that bad, they shouldn't get all the bad rep they get". You basically don't want me to hold the political views that I do.

Sorry, but that's not having an honest political discussion, that's trying to convert me by saying I'm a big meanie.

[AZRogue]

That's just an excuse. He's not trying to convert you to any political ideal. Having a discussion doesn't involve insulting one another. An argument, sure, but not a discussion.

In a gray world, blacks as bad as white.

[Janos]

You basically don't want me to hold the political views that I do.

You really don't get why the viciousness in wanting someone to suffer for holding views you don't shuts down a conversation?

You can share political views without bashing the party in question. You can also root for one party without putting down the other. It has nothing to do with admitting your own limitations (which you did do).

I'm simply calling you out for being extremely hostile toward one group in the very thread that wants us to be more civil toward opposing viewpoints.

[Trainz]

You really don't get why the viciousness in wanting someone to suffer for holding views you don't shuts down a conversation?


Right. I'll grant you I was like a bull in a porcelain store (well, according to Mythbusters, that doesn't mean much, but fuck 'em in this case).

But I WAS being honest. These are my true feelings. I didn't personally attack anyone here, and if you've been paying somewhat attention, I have tuned it down a notch when it comes to my discussions with cons on this board. I have done more than my fair share of hand extending (and have received the same in return).

But the title of the thread is Political Honesty, which I have done.

1- Stated my true political feelings as they stand in my day to day life, not just online
2- Admitted my limited knowledge in having said views

As I said before, I don't know how to be more honest.

[Pigs in Space]

But...


I like calling republicans names.

I'd go for a room where there are rules I can obey, because sometimes I have the intelligence and compulsive restraint of a child. Or a US president. Whichever. Take your pick.