How Would You or How Do YOU Handle Epic Level Campaigns?

[SHARK]

Greetings!

The ELH is often reviled, and critiqued endlessly. People seem to have a loathing of epic level playing, instead prefering a campaign that never goes above 12th level, twould seem.

What problems do you think Epic Level Campaigning have? Do you find it useful to use the ELH in such a campaign?

How would YOU change the percieved problems and shortcomings of the ELH?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Harry]

I've never played at Epic levels.

Player characters are not and never were meant to be gods.

[Enk]

Planar travel.

[Ancalagon]

the way I see it, level 15-20 IS epic...

[Xavier Lang]

I try and stay away from them entirely.

D&D concentrates power into individuals, not nation states or organizations.
Nation states and organizations usually have holdings, land, populations, etc... to defend and expend resources on. Many PC's don't.

When you have a group of 6-10 people each with power equal to a minor nation working together you start going off the scale of what D&D seems designed to handle.

[Droid101]

Got a campaign where my players were level 21 one time. Broke out the Epic Level Handbook for that one level. They knew the next encounter was going to be the end of the campaign, which probably shaped their feat/whatever choice for that level, but whatever.

They had basically built up to a huge final encounter, where they were giong to essentially throw their lives away in an attempt to distract/save a lot of people. They fought all kinds of demons, and eventually a semi-deity.

I didn't really think about encounter level or anything like that. By that time, I knew what they could and couldn't handle, as I'd been DMing them from level 1 to level 21.

So, basically, I didn't add anything useful to this thread. :)

[Limper]

So, basically, I didn't add anything useful to this thread. :)

You seldom do.


My biggest problem with Epic Play is trying to find a DM who will deal with it and/or players who will do something with it.

If you don't have active players with goals Epic is hell to run... but then so is everything else for that matter. I can't stand spoonfeeding players and I don't like railroading DM's.

I want to play and interact with the world and be challenged by having to react to a variety of situations and handle multiple goals as both a DM and a Player.

[Droid101]

You seldom do.



:(

[Janos]

We played till 27th with a 3.0 campaign. It was cumbersome and an extra set of rules on top of balancing 20th level characters. It also quickly became more about who had the no save no sr abilities than anything else. Melee Damage output just didn't stack up at that time to spell damage, and the versatility high level spellcasters had left non-casters in the dust.

Force Cage became one of the ultimate weapons in our arsenal, as did massive numbers of Harm. Saves also became pretty moot. Even with a 40ish save, most epic monsters were resisting things easily because of a combination of hit dice, class levels, and gross stats at that level.

The cheap cloaks of 40 SR out of ELB became standard operating gear really quickly.

[Droid101]

The cheap cloaks of 40 SR out of ELB became standard operating gear really quickly.

Man, you can prevent that shit by not giving them enough time between adventures to make anything. That's what I always did. :D

[Tetsubo]

I haven't run an Epic level game since 1E. Ah the wonders of playing a 26th level Ranger Lord... heck on wheels against giants... :)

One suggestion I have heard is to limit any class to twenty levels. Once you hit enough XP for 21st level you multi-class in something else. Fighter types pick up some casting and casters pick up some fighting ability. I like the idea myself...

[Janos]

Man, you can prevent that shit by not giving them enough time between adventures to make anything. That's what I always did. :D

We usually didn't make them. And when we did, we always abused time to do so by Plane Shifting, usually to our demiplanes. Most were bought or found pretty quickly. The biggest problem we had was finding places we could buy/trade/use epic level gear.

[Droid101]

We usually didn't make them. And when we did, we always abused time to do so by Plane Shifting, usually to our demiplanes. Most were bought or found pretty quickly. The biggest problem we had was finding places we could buy/trade/use epic level gear.

Man, your DM was nice.

When I felt my players were getting out of control, item-wise, I'd have something happen where they'd lose some or have some disenchanted. :)

[Janos]

Man, your DM was nice.

When I felt my players were getting out of control, item-wise, I'd have something happen where they'd lose some or have some disenchanted. :)

Mostly he didn't want to have to recalculate encounter levels at that level. Its hard enough to judge using the baseline system, freeforming it was a nightmare.

[Bagpuss]

A TPK around level 16 normally sorts out epic level campaigns for me.

[shabois]

I think a good balance is to focus on more role playing situations and less combat. Murder mysteries, attempts to overthrow the king they protect, etc. You have to be unconventional to make it interesting. But I agree with some others that after 20th level you should retire the characters and reboot. You also can be flexable with the XP. Don't follow strict XP rules and give out less so the characters advance slower. If the players truly enjoy the characters they play and the game setting, then reward the characters in other way besides xp.

[Bagpuss]

The ELH is often reviled, and critiqued endlessly. People seem to have a loathing of epic level playing, instead preferring a campaign that never goes above 12th level, it would seem.

This is probably because that's when the world altering magic comes in and the combat challenges become much harder to balance. Also the nature of the game shifts, if the PCs are about 12th level or higher, and carry the wealth of a small nation on their person, why are they still pissing about in dungeons in quest for hidden treasure?

What problems do you think Epic Level Campaigning have?

Balance, stories that suit high level play.

Do you find it useful to use the ELH in such a campaign?

Never used it. Never got to Epic levels in 3rd Ed, mainly because campaign haven't lasted long enough for one reason or another.

I've played a god level campaign in AD&D where everyone played an Avatar of their god in the Forgotten Realms trying to increase the number of worshippers they had while at the same time battling in their god forms for control of various planes. But the ELH wouldn't help with that. That campaign was incredibly political and involved a lot of backstabbing; but then I was playing a CN God of Fire (violent change), and another player in our pantheon was a LN God of Undeath.

How would YOU change the perceived problems and shortcomings of the ELH?

First of I don't like the use of the word Epic to describe high level play all D&D from 1st level and beyond can be epic in nature. If anything the lower levels of play are more epic, because at this point the characters are still traditional an legendary heroes, not the super heroes they become at higher levels.

You need to change what the story is about, you really can't go dungeon crawling in a quest for loot and XP when you have reached that sort of level, if anything is too tough you can teleport or plane shift away, and if it isn't then you can splat it. I think the game needs to move to a more political goal or move off the Prime Material plane and into a quest for godhood.

[Maddman]

When I want to run an epic game, I run Exalted. D&D is best when its four companions going down into a dark cave full of orcs and goblins. If you want to move mountains, found nations, and change the course of history use a game that is meant to do that.

[EhtoZed]

I've never played at Epic levels.

Player characters are not and never were meant to be gods.Player characters are not and never were meant to be heroic. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

What's the difference? Players are meant to be whatever the players and DM want them to be. This whole, 'I don't like it so no one else should do it' pisses me the fuck off. Go peddle that shit to Diaglo!

As for myself, I've never played high levels until our current game. We're running through the Age of Worms right now and before the end we should hit 21st level or higher. It'll be interesting. As for when I DM I prefer to try and keep things lower. Which hasn't been a problem since all our games peter out before we get that far.

[Bagpuss]

Player characters are not and never were meant to be gods.

If you have rules for it I can't see why they can't be anything you want them to be.