What's Wrong With The Sorcerer?

[SHARK]

Greetings!

I have read numerous threads on EN-World where people complain about the Sorcerer, and how the Wizard and Sorcerer should be combined. I remember when people praised the Sorcerer, and loved that the Sorcerer was *different* from the Wizard.

Now, of course, the Sorcerer and Wizard need to be combined???

What's up with that?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Enk]

At low levels, sorcerers are mechanically better than wizards. This is true all the way up until wizards get fireball, after which the flexibility of the wizard leaves sorcerers in the dust. As for sorcerers and wizards being different, that's a bit of a dodge. Psions are different that wizards, but sorcerers are simply wizards that don't get a wide enough array of spells.

It didn't help that wizards then introduced the Warmage - which was simply a better sorcerer than the sorcerer - and the warlock - which does the "blast all day" thing better than sorcerers. By then, our group (and I'm guessing we're not the only ones) saw the inherent flaws in the sorcerer as written and began looking for ways to close the gap. You know how we did it? By making sorcerers more like wizards.

In the end, we simply made a single arcane caster that spontaneously cast a small group of spells at a slower rate than they learned them. Anything that was not chosen as a spontantous spell was learnable as if the caster were a wizard, but the casting time for those spells were much longer (by a factor of ten).

Next campaign we run we'll probably do the same thing with divine magic, assuming we don't break the divide between the two completely.

[Janos]

Enk covered the basics. The concept was that sorcerers were supposed to cast more than wizards, but have a limited selection. In a way they were an evolution of the specialist concept. Instead, they overdid the limited selection, gave almost no flavor to the class itself (or incentive to keep going up in it), and then put out better versions of the same concept in the Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, etc.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

In the end, we simply made a single arcane caster that spontaneously cast a small group of spells at a slower rate than they learned them. Anything that was not chosen as a spontantous spell was learnable as if the caster were a wizard, but the casting time for those spells were much longer (by a factor of ten).

That I like.

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Yeah, Enk, they sure fucked up with making the warmage and other classes better than the damn sorcerer! I noticed a trend with that...with other classes, to a degree, as well.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Ancalagon]

Greetings!

Yeah, Enk, they sure fucked up with making the warmage and other classes better than the damn sorcerer! I noticed a trend with that...with other classes, to a degree, as well.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Power creep... it happens again and again.

[there_is_no_bob]

Enk did a very good job of covering my dislikes of the sorceror.


I'd emphasize that flavour and mechanics were almost totally at odds (they should have gotten Ignore Components or whatever the feat name is at 1st level, at least). They also got the total shaft as far as skills were concerned; wizards get around that by having the high Int bonus, but since socerors cast off Cha they got nothing. Plus they didn't get a particularly good skill selection.

Giving them Use Magic Device might have made them a little more interesting.

A more interesting familiar would have been nice.

[Dacke]

In the end, we simply made a single arcane caster
Have you seen the Magister class from Arcana Unearthed/Evolved? Basically, they're like a sorcerer who can swap out his spells known each day.

Well, all the spellcasting classes in AU are like that, but the Magister is the only one who approaches the wizard/sorcerer in casting power. The other classes are more along the lines of the bard.

[Bagpuss]

Power creep... it happens again and again.

Having played with WarMage and the like it isn't so much Power Creep as the Sorcerer was underpowered from day one.

[The Winslow]

Have you seen the Magister class from Arcana Unearthed/Evolved? Basically, they're like a sorcerer who can swap out his spells known each day.

Well, all the spellcasting classes in AU are like that, but the Magister is the only one who approaches the wizard/sorcerer in casting power. The other classes are more along the lines of the bard.

You can emulate it quite easily -- the wizard's spells per day chart represents the number of spells he can prepare, and the sorcerer's spells per day chart represents the number of spells he can cast. Instead of casting spells from his known spells, the pseudo-magister cast spells from his prepared spells.

Finally, he can use two spell slots of level X to cast a spell of level X+1. So, a pseudo-Magister of level 3 has prepared a level 2 spell, but only has level 0 and 1 slots -- he can use two level 1 slots to cast the level 2 spell.

That, in a nutshell, is an approximation of AE's magister.

[Xavier Lang]

Next campaign we run we'll probably do the same thing with divine magic, assuming we don't break the divide between the two completely.

On a side note, smartest rule change I ever saw for divine magic was to separate out the abilities of priests by Sphere (Good, Law, Strength, etc... in case I'm using the wrong name for it) so that priests had different abilities depending on the spheres they took instead of by deity. It added flavor inside of a priesthood, you could have factions and groups inside of a priesthood. It also meant not every priest could do the same things making it more of a surprise what a specific priest could do and allowing for different points of view inside of a larger religion. It also made adding new deities as simple as picking the spheres.

Example: Deity has Strength, Law, Good, Healing
A Priest that had Strength/Law had radically different abilities than a priest that had Healing/Good even if they were of the same deity. One was a more war/combat focused priest, one was more of a healer yet both were in the same religion.

[Dacke]

Finally, he can use two spell slots of level X to cast a spell of level X+1. So, a pseudo-Magister of level 3 has prepared a level 2 spell, but only has level 0 and 1 slots -- he can use two level 1 slots to cast the level 2 spell.
IIRC, it's either three slots of level N exchanged for one N+1, or one N exchanged for two level N-1 (easier to trade down than up).

Spells per day for the magister is much like the wizard rather than the sorcerer, except that they keep getting more slots until they get seven of them (instead of topping out at four as in 3e), and eventually get infinite slots of low-level spells (which can't be exchanged upward for obvious reasons). Spells prepared look like the sorcerer spells known table, but I haven't looked at it in detail.

On a side note, smartest rule change I ever saw for divine magic was to separate out the abilities of priests by Sphere (Good, Law, Strength, etc... in case I'm using the wrong name for it) so that priests had different abilities depending on the spheres they took instead of by deity. It added flavor inside of a priesthood, you could have factions and groups inside of a priesthood.
Do you mean the 2e spheres, which determined a priest's entire spell list, or the 3e domains, which only add a sprinkle of flavor on top? Because in 2e, the spheres you got were fixed by deity (e.g. all priests of Beshaba have major access to All, Astral, Charm, Combat, Guardian, and Protection; and minor access to Summoning, Creation, and Divination - I know these were changed in Faiths & Avatars, but I don't have it handy), whereas in 3e you got your basic cleric list and choose two domains from the god's list (in Beshaba's case, Chaos, Evil, Fate, Luck, and Trickery).

From a flavor point of view, I like the 2e method better as it makes priests very different from one another, but on the other hand I realize that the 3e method is a lot easier to balance and especially makes it easier to maintain party balance ("What do you mean you can't heal me? I thought you were supposed to be the cleric!")

[Limper]

I just gave the bonus Heritage Feats (1,5,10,15,20) once those were available but prior to that I just let folks figure it out for themselves.

[Xavier Lang]

IIRC, it's either three slots of level N exchanged for one N+1, or one N exchanged for two level N-1 (easier to trade down than up).

Spells per day for the magister is much like the wizard rather than the sorcerer, except that they keep getting more slots until they get seven of them (instead of topping out at four as in 3e), and eventually get infinite slots of low-level spells (which can't be exchanged upward for obvious reasons). Spells prepared look like the sorcerer spells known table, but I haven't looked at it in detail.


Do you mean the 2e spheres, which determined a priest's entire spell list, or the 3e domains, which only add a sprinkle of flavor on top? Because in 2e, the spheres you got were fixed by deity (e.g. all priests of Beshaba have major access to All, Astral, Charm, Combat, Guardian, and Protection; and minor access to Summoning, Creation, and Divination - I know these were changed in Faiths & Avatars, but I don't have it handy), whereas in 3e you got your basic cleric list and choose two domains from the god's list (in Beshaba's case, Chaos, Evil, Fate, Luck, and Trickery).

From a flavor point of view, I like the 2e method better as it makes priests very different from one another, but on the other hand I realize that the 3e method is a lot easier to balance and especially makes it easier to maintain party balance ("What do you mean you can't heal me? I thought you were supposed to be the cleric!")

I'm terrible with names. I meant the 3rd edition Domains, where each god only had a half dozen usually.

So you could have a priest of Evil/Luck and a priest of Chaos/Trickery following the same god with different abilities and outlooks. This would let individual bad guy priests have more flavor and allow for schisms in churches, etc...

[Tetsubo]

What I did in my last campaign...

Sorcerers

Sorcerers have a D6 for hit dice rather than a D4.

Sorcerers do not normally require spell components. In their place the Sorcerer has in their possession a magical spell focus known as a Fetish. The Fetish may be any small physical object. Most often it is an item that the Sorcerer associates with the first manifestation of their power. Once acquired the Sorcerer suffers a temporary CN lose of 1 point. This reflects the life force that the Sorcerer is investing into the Fetish. Each time the Sorcerer gains a new spell level they suffer another such lose. This spell component substitution is similar to the Eschew Material Component Feat. The Sorcerer needs no components for a spell requiring components that cost less than 1 sp (note I am running a silver-based campaign). If the spell requires components that cost more than 1 sp they have two options. One is to acquire the needed component(s). The second is to expend 1 xp for each sp value of the component(s). A Sorcerer can not spend enough xp to lower themselves below their current class level. This has no effect on the level of the spell.
There are consequences if the Sorcerer looses their Fetish however. All spells cast without a Fetish are considered one spell level higher (i.e. 0-level spells are now considered 1st level). All spells cast without a Fetish cause the Sorcerer to take 1 hp of damage for each spell level of the dwoemer. Without the Fetish the Sorcerer literally begins to consume their own body to channel their magic. If the Fetish is recovered within 1 day per Sorcerer level (plus the CH bonus if any) all ill effects vanish. Though hit points must be recovered normally. If the Fetish can not be recovered or the time limit elapses a new Fetish can be fashioned. Again the Fetish can be any small physical object. Once chosen the Sorcerer invests one temporary CN point into it for each spell level the caster has based on character level. The Sorcerer may choose to invest a limited number of CN points at a time. The new Fetish will allow the Sorcerer to cast spells normally up to the level equal to the amount of CN invested. Example: an 18th level Sorcerer looses his Fetish. He could chose to invest 5 points of CN and be able to cast up to 4th level spells. The additional CN could be invested at a later date to allow the full range of all nine-spell levels. Temporarily lost CN points are recovered at the rate of one per day.
Obviously Sorcerers protect their Fetish at all costs. They are often disguised as jewelry or a mundane item. To function a Fetish must be in physical contact with the Sorcerers naked skin. The Fetish does not count against the magic item “slots” available to the character.
Knowledge (Arcana) is no longer a Class Skill for Sorcerers. Sorcerers do not over think their spellcasting, it is purely intuitive. The Sorcerer may choose another IN based skill to replace Knowledge (Arcana). They may of course learn Knowledge (Arcana) as a non-class skill if they choose.
Sorcerers may “upgrade” to a more powerful version of a spell as they gain levels. For example: If the Sorcerer had Monster Summoning II and wanted to acquire Monster Summoning III, by doing so they would “absorb” the lower level version freeing up that spell slot for another spell choice. They would no longer have access to the lower spell that had been “absorbed”. They can of course ignore this option if they choose.

Optional Rule: Many Sorcerers possess a physical manifestation of their magical abilities. This manifestation appears as some form of minor physical oddity. It could be an oddly colored hair, eyes, skin or enlarged canines, extra digits, bony ridges or a reflection that isn’t backwards. This is an entirely option feature of playing a Sorcerer.

[ColonelHardisson]

I think the warlock came along and filled the sorcerer's niche better than the sorcerer. On top of that, reserve feats, which are a cool idea, made further incursions into the sorcerer's territory. I don't think any of that is bad. In fact, it shows that the game evolves in a positive way.