Skill Consolidation?

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Ok, on one hand, I can see some benefit in say, combining Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate into one skill--Persuasion. Stealth=Hide and Move Silently; Athletic=Jump, Swim, and Climb; Agile=Balance, Tumble; and so on.

All of that sounds nice, and yet--people also say that doing so makes the skills and the game too generic, and not specific enough.

So, assuming that *some* skill consolidation is desirable--why didn't WOTC just do that with fucking 3.5E??????

It isn't like these ideas haven't been around for a long time--more specifically, even before 3.5E.

Ideas?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Bagpuss]

Heck Jump, Swim and Climb are still separate in SWSE. Although virtually everyone on the boards said WTF? why leave these and merge every other logical group?

Personally if you are going over to a fixed number of trained skills the it makes good sense to merge them.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

I broadly agree with consolidation, but should intimidate be rolled into bluff and diplomacy? I know some pretty intimidating people who couldn't bluff or smooth-talk their way out of a wet paper bag.

I suppose it could be done through modifiers. When using your persuasion feat to intimidate, you might be able to use your strength bonus, or something.

How about the following feats:

Physical intimidation [general feat]
Your imposing presence and obvious physical strength make you better able to intimidate others.
Prerequisite: Str bonus of +1 or greater.
Effect: You may add your strength bonus to your skill roll when using your persuasion skill to intimidate someone (but not when using it to bluff or be diplomatic with them).

Intimidating presence [general feat; fighter bonus feat]
Something about you is particularly upsetting and intimidating.
Effect: When using your persuasion skill to intimidate someone, you may use the higher of your character level or your persuasion skill rank as if it were your persuasion skill rank. However, when using your persuasion skill for any purpose other than intimidation, you suffer a -4 circumstance penalty.

[Janos]

I would like to see skills combined that are used together constantly. So Stealth (Hide, Move), Perception (Spot, Listen), Diplomatic (Diplomacy, Bluff), Acrobatic (Balance, Tumble), Mechanical (Open Lock, Disable Device), but would hate to see more distinct skills be combined like Climb and Swim into an Athletics skill where they actually are used in different situations.

[BOZ]

so, 4E's goal will be to simplify as many things as possible so that people won't have to think anymore? :)

[Limper]

so, 4E's goal will be to simplify as many things as possible so that people won't have to think anymore? :)

4e=WOW-lite.

[doc]

Thinking is to HAAAAARD for RPGers, we've got to dumb it down for them[/WoTC ]

[Bagpuss]

so, 4E's goal will be to simplify as many things as possible so that people won't have to think anymore? :)

Yeah because we all know real men play Hero or Rolemaster.

[Pigs in Space]

4e=WOW-lite.

You mean you need so many mods installed to play it that your vision is obscured continually by coloured scrolling text?

[Maddman]

Thinking is to HAAAAARD for RPGers, we've got to dumb it down for them[/WoTC ]

My games have interesting things in them, so my players generally have more fun things to worry about than rules. Give me something quick and intuitive that doesn't get in my way. Skill consolidation is a way to do that. It also gets rid of needless complications like class vs cross class skills or synergy bonuses.

[ColonelHardisson]

so, 4E's goal will be to simplify as many things as possible so that people won't have to think anymore? :)

Oh, come on, BOZ. While on one hand 3e's skill system was a welcome change from what came before, on the other hand the list was just a tad long, and included some skills I can't imagine anyone wanting to spend skill points on - Rope Use, anyone? Streamlining it a bit can't hurt. Plus, I'm guessing that streamlining won't eliminate all that many skills, regardless. Anyone have the list from Stars Wars Saga handy?

[BOZ]

i'm just grognarding. ;)

i'm going to do my best to reserve any proper judgements until i've seen and played with the final product. that's not a promise, but i'll do my best. :D

[Kwalish Kid]

I think that the consolidation is an attempt to make the game more cinematic. That characters can succeed in a broader range of strategies certainly seems to gel with the hero archetypes of contemporary cinema. The consolidation also helps reduce bookkeeping, which is often antithetical to storytelling.

[BOZ]

i don't see how reducing the number of skills speeds up gameplay (maybe saves you a minute from looking over the skill list).

it would, however, make things easier during character creation and levelling.

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Excellent suggestions, all, gang. Of course, I wonder why Hide and Move Silently were not combined to begin with into the skill: STEALTH. Hmmm...

Hide/Move Silently=Skill: STEALTH
Bluff/Diplomacy=Skill: PERSUASION
Balance/Tumble/Jump=Skill: Athletics or Acrobatics
Spot/Listen/Search=Skill: Perception

and so on. In addition to combining more obvious skills, it also allows for an "opening up" to some more specific, but interesting skills that may seem to justify a distinct category, such as Skill: Military Engineering; Skill: Strategy; Skill: Tactics for example to replace Knowledge (War) and Knowledge (Siege Engineering). This also leaves Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) as a separate, distinct skill involving civic projects and so on. Furthermore, adding such skills as Fighter class skills enables the Fighter to do something other than swing a sword; and allows for them to actually *BE* officers, commanders, and generals with gradients in measurable skill. Wizards, having knowledge as class skills, could also choose to specialize with such skills--therefore fulfilling many visions of a warlike, martial mage--while not detracting from the Fighter's ability to not only perform as a powerful single warrior on the battlefield, but also as they advance in level and experience, naturally and with some ease--if the character desires to do so--become a real leader of men, and have that capability and knowledge actually mean something within the game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Maddman]

Another option is to have broad skills but allow for so many points or whatever a specialization with that skill. So if your character is a strong swimmer you give him a good athletics but then specialize in athletics (swimming) so he's really good at that. I just want something to get us going, as interesting characters come from conflict, not being better at one thing than another.

[Dacke]

Anyone have the list from Stars Wars Saga handy?
Don't have Saga, but I do have the list of skill groups from Iron Heroes (written by Mike Mearls, who's now at WOTC). The way skill groups work is that if your class has a skill group, and you spend a skill point on it, you get a rank in every skill that's part of that group. If you don't have a group, you have to buy skills individually. This replaces the D&D class/crossclass skills.

Academia: Appraise, Concentration, Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge, Speak Languages
Agility: Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble
Athletics: Climb, Jump, Swim
Mysticism: Concentration, Decipher Script, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Perception: Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot
Robbery: Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand
Social: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate.
Stealth: Hide, Move Silently
Theatrics: Bluff, Disguise, Perform, Sleight of Hand
Wilderness Lore: Handle Animal, Ride, Survival, Use Rope.Note that there is some overlap between the groups, and that Craft and Perform are not part of any group.

[ColonelHardisson]

I have Iron Heroes. I was just wondering how differently SWSaga handles skills from D&D. With Mearls as lead designer, maybe IH is a good place to look for how skills may be handled.

[Kwalish Kid]

So far, the WOTC guys have pretty heavily hinted that SAGA skills are almost exactly how 4E skills will work.

[ColonelHardisson]

So far, the WOTC guys have pretty heavily hinted that SAGA skills are almost exactly how 4E skills will work.

How similar to the Saga skill rules is Iron Heroes? I dig what Mearls did with skills in that game.

[Kwalish Kid]

Not really similar at all. Skills are, for the most part, broader. Characters have stealth rather than move silently and hide, for example.

Effectively, everyone has every skill as a cross-class skill, maxed out. This means that every skill has a base of the ability bonus plus one half of your character level. If you are actually trained in a skill, then you can do more things with the skill and you get a +5 on the check. If you have the skill focus feat, you get another +5.

The saga skills are:
Acrobatics
Climb
Deception
Endurance
Gather Information
Initiative
Jump
Knowledge (Bureaucracy)
Knowledge (Galactic Lore)
Knowledge (Life Sciences)
Knowledge (Physical Sciences)
Knowledge (Social Sciences)
Knowledge (Tactics)
Knowledge (Technology)
Mechanics
Perception
Persuasion
Pilot
Ride
Stealth
Swim
Treat Injury
Use Computer
Use the Force