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Name Lips
06-25-2008, 08:57 PM
Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25374237/)


Man-made tornadoes could power the future
Engineer spins up plan to generate electricity from sucked-up air

Coiled up in a tornado is as much energy as an entire power plant. So a Canadian engineer has a plan to spin up his own twister and extract energy from its tethered tail.

It all depends on heating the air near the surface so that it is much warmer than the air above.

"You can generate energy whenever you have a temperature gradient," said Louis Michaud. "The source of the energy here is the natural movement of warm and cold air currents."

These so-called convective air currents are only useful if they can be channeled in some way. That is why Michaud proposes using a tornado as a kind of drinking straw between the warm ground below and the cold sky above. Wind turbines placed at the bottom could generate electricity from the sucked-up air.

Whirlwind tour
Tornadoes and hurricanes form when sun-heated air near the surface rises and displaces cooler air above. As outside air rushes in to replace the rising air, the whole mass begins to rotate.

Michaud got the notion of a man-made tornado — what he calls the Atmospheric Vortex Engine (AVE) — while working as an engineer on gas turbines.

"When I looked further into it, I didn't run into anything that was impossible," Michaud told LiveScience.

The AVE structure is a 200-meter-wide arena with 100-meter-high walls. Warm humid air enters at the sides, directed to flow in a circular fashion. As the air whirls around at speeds up to 200 mph, a vacuum forms in the center, which holds the vortex together as it extends several miles into the sky.

The concept is similar to a solar chimney with the swirling walls of the vortex replacing the brick walls of the tower. But the AVE can reach much higher into the sky where the air is colder.

With wind turbines at the inlets to the arena, Michaud calculates that as much as 200 megawatts of electricity (enough for a small city) could be extracted without draining the vortex of its power.

"Look at natural tornadoes that destroy a house or carry off a car and still have plenty of energy left over," he said.

Waste heat
Michaud imagines the AVE could get its warm air from the exhaust of a power plant.

"Most power plants reject more than half of the heat that they make," he said.

The AVE could generate energy from this waste heat because it connects the ground to the upper atmosphere where the temperature gets as low as negative 60 degrees Celsius (80 degrees below zero Fahrenheit). This cold reservoir draws the warm air up fast enough to turn turbines.

"All you have to do is send the heat up there," Michaud said, and the extra energy from the AVE could increase the output of a power plant by 40 percent.

Making the tornado dependent on a waste heat supply would also be a built-in safety feature. "If it came off the base, there would be nothing to sustain the vortex," Michaud said.

He said the vortex might produce a little extra precipitation in the surrounding area.

To build a 200 megawatt AVE facility would cost $60 million, Michaud estimates. This implies a cost per megawatt that is lower than all existing power generation technologies.

Michaud has tested many small prototypes and is currently working on a 4-meter wide AVE near his home in Ontario. The research comes mostly out his own pocket book, as he has not found an investor yet.

"Utility companies are risk-adverse," he said. "They prefer to buy from established vendors."

This technology has several things going for it. First, it builds off of and expands upon existing technology and infrastructure. That means existing energy corporations won't feel threatened. Second, it requires no input energy at all. The "fuel" for the process is simply waste heat, which is otherwise just going to be thrown away. Third, just look at the price per megawatt! It's insane. This is the cheapest energy source I've ever seen, and it's just right there waiting to be tapped.

Limper
06-26-2008, 05:54 AM
Using waste heat sells me on the idea.

Be sort of unnerving to see bound tornados around power plants though.

Random Encounter
06-26-2008, 06:24 AM
Using waste heat sells me on the idea.

Be sort of unnerving to see bound tornados around power plants though.

No problem. Just plop down a fire station nearby and be ready with the bulldozer tool to clear the rubble.

Limper
06-26-2008, 06:30 AM
Is that the windows 3.1 version of Sim City?

Random Encounter
06-26-2008, 07:00 AM
Is that the windows 3.1 version of Sim City?

DOS I think.
I just did an image search on Google for "SimCity Screenshot"

Space Cadet B^3
06-26-2008, 08:42 AM
I read that in Pop Sci last night! :D

obryn
06-26-2008, 09:00 AM
Boy, I hope this is real.

It has a "perpetual motion" vibe that makes me suspicious, but if they can get it to work, this would be awesome.

-O

there_is_no_bob
06-26-2008, 11:23 AM
Boy, I hope this is real.

It has a "perpetual motion" vibe that makes me suspicious, but if they can get it to work, this would be awesome.

-OIt will only work so long as heat is being pumped in from a heat generator, so it isn't perpetual.

On the other hand, I have no idea what will happen if we start localized, persistent, heating of the atmosphere. Might make for some interesting weather, and I'd really like to see a serious investigation of those effects - heat pollution is bad too, and I don't know that pumping it out to where we can't see the effects will necessarily be better.

I'd really like to see more info on the weather effects.

The atmosphere gets used as a sewer far, far too much...

Random Encounter
06-26-2008, 11:36 AM
It will only work so long as heat is being pumped in from a heat generator, so it isn't perpetual.

On the other hand, I have no idea what will happen if we start localized, persistent, heating of the atmosphere. Might make for some interesting weather, and I'd really like to see a serious investigation of those effects - heat pollution is bad too, and I don't know that pumping it out to where we can't see the effects will necessarily be better.

I'd really like to see more info on the weather effects.

The atmosphere gets used as a sewer far, far too much...

Good point. Weather is already tricky to predict so introducing something like this could have unforseen long range effects.
But I'm wondering, if you set one of these up in an area already prone to tornados if it would help reduce the occurance of wild tornados as the cause (heat difference between ground air and higher atmosphere air) is being managed in a controlled environment.
With heat being added by a power plant the ground air in the surronding countryside won't be much cooler but the upper atmosphere air would be a tad warmer, maybe just enough to prevent the cycle from starting on it's own.

I also notice the article says "hot humid air." Does this mean it wouldnt' work the same in more arid environments (like many of the Western United States)?

Ergeheilalt
06-26-2008, 11:40 AM
On the other hand, I have no idea what will happen if we start localized, persistent, heating of the atmosphere.

ASHRAE (IIRC) did a study on Phoenix, AZ. They compared temperature data and observed the microclimate around the city. They found that there was a significant temperature jump when AC first began spreading. They predicted that the temperature in the Phoenix area has jumped about 10 degrees since the advent of cheap Air Conditioning due the shifting and expulsion of heat from the units. It also did something to the monsoon season, but I don't remember exactly what. I read this study as a Freshman for my ME 100 class haha.

In short, it's not a great thing, but you're never going to get power cheap and free of all consequences.

Ergeheilalt
06-26-2008, 11:45 AM
I also notice the article says "hot humid air." Does this mean it wouldnt' work the same in more arid environments (like many of the Western United States)?

Torandos are form in nature due to a pressure and temperature differential across two meteorological fronts. The differential is essentially an imbalance and nature cannot stomach an imbalance for long, so the tornado I would assume is the step between balance and imbalance. I'd have to look at the psychrometrics of the situation to be sure, but would further assume that the hot humid air increases the efficiency of the process dude to the larger difference in the enthalpy of the generation process.

Northcott
06-26-2008, 11:34 PM
But aren't we dealing with waste heat that already exists?

Being an ignorant sod, I immediately turn back to that butterfly wing = hurricane nonsense, and wonder what a few giant wind-tunnels will do.

Ergeheilalt
06-26-2008, 11:48 PM
But aren't we dealing with waste heat that already exists?

What do you mean by dealing with?

Northcott
06-27-2008, 03:57 AM
I'm probably just too damned sleep-depped to be thinking clearly... but wasn't the article talking about making use of waste heat to pull this off, rather than generating new heat? And if so, then isn't the balance of heat effects on the environment already present?

And Jeebus, I hope that's not too incoherent. :grey:

Random Encounter
06-27-2008, 11:14 AM
I'm probably just too damned sleep-depped to be thinking clearly... but wasn't the article talking about making use of waste heat to pull this off, rather than generating new heat? And if so, then isn't the balance of heat effects on the environment already present?

And Jeebus, I hope that's not too incoherent. :grey:

Makes perfect sense too me. This device isn't adding any more heat pollution to the environment as it's using heat that would have been pumped into the air or water anyway. The only difference is where the heat ends up, the upper atmosphere or near ground level. If it builds up at ground level and conditions are right a wild tornado may move the hot air to the upper atmosphere anyway and cause distruction along the way.

there_is_no_bob
06-27-2008, 08:57 PM
I'm probably just too damned sleep-depped to be thinking clearly... but wasn't the article talking about making use of waste heat to pull this off, rather than generating new heat? And if so, then isn't the balance of heat effects on the environment already present?

And Jeebus, I hope that's not too incoherent. :grey:
If someone shits at the bottom of a lake, how much does it matter?

If someone shits right above your head, how much does it matter?


Location matters; I don't know how much, but then likely no one does. It may be that this will be a perfectly wonderful way of generating energy. Or it may be that it will cause torrential rainstorms and rapid erosion and destruction of the surrounding area, or it may result in tornados jumping out of their pens and killing the power supply. Or it may fix heat pollution problems the world over and make for a wonderful tomorrow.

I'd like to have a better idea of these things before seeing one, on account of I don't think this guy (paying out of his own pocket) has the funds for good weather and climate modelling.

Name Lips
06-28-2008, 01:32 AM
Cities create weather bubbles around them. It's a very unusual and interesting phenominon.

My gut reaction to the worry about the hot air causing weather disruptions is that all of that hot air is being released and rising into the air on its own anyway, just not focused into a narrow area. What they're doing is taking advantage of the fact that it's moving, rising air to have it turn some turbines while doing so. In order for this to be efficient, they have to make sure the heat is being expelled to one location, which makes the rising air much more dramatic. But it should still be the same amount of hot, rising air either way.