I can't marry you if you won't become a muslim

[Cat of Ulthar]

... what am I supposed to do about that?:(

When I was in Yemen, and we talked about faith, we were fine. He had no trouble with me being a pagan, we talked a lot and he understood we have different parts to the same God. No problems. On the new moon, we were sitting on a mountain in his car, first he went out to pray, then I went out to meditate. No sweat.

But now I am here, I keep getting these texts and comments saying I should become a muslim. I can't. I try to explain, but he can't seem to understand. I fear his family is pressurizing, the change in him is too big and I can't understand why first he had no problems with my religion, and now all of a sudden my religion is wrong (:shock:) and I need to become a muslim.
I keep telling him, it's ok for a muslim guy to marry a non-muslim woman. Yeah, but he would love me more if I were a muslim.
Nonsense, you fell in love with me when I was not a muslim, you know I am a good person and I love God and God loves me, and if I am to become a muslim, it's between God and me, and nothing to do with you. You cannot force religion. No, he says, he knows, but if God wills I will become a muslim.
Yeah, if God wills, anything can happen.
I say I cannot say I am a muslim, because it is not in my heart, and I cannot lie to God. He says, if I don't love Islam, I do not love him.
No you fucking wanker, I do love Islam, I think it's a wonderful religion, but I am not a muslim.
Sorry sausage says: If you are sure you will never become a muslim, I cannot marry you.

:boggle:

What the fuck are you supposed to say to that? Fuck off is my first thought, but I am too much in love for that. So now what? I may become a muslim at one point in my life, though I think it highly unlikely. Tell him that, let him hope? Try to forget him and find a nice atheist? Fuck this!!!:mad:

[FeatsofClay]

Walk away with the gift of the positive feelings you had and find someone who accepts you as you are.

Sorry, but I truly believe this advice. If your mate cannot say "She is all fucked up and backwards and silly and perfect" you are wasting time and energy.

I am sorry (again) to be this blunt but I truly believe it to be true.

[Space Cadet B^3]

That sucks Cat. I would tell him that you do not make this decision lightly, but that your identity, beliefs and persona are more important as an individual, and that maybe you should take some time to think on things before leaping into a world-changing event and change things just to make love possible.

I hope that sounds more astute than it feels.

*hug*

[Lady Fury]

He's going to have to decide who he loves more, you or is his religion. If he chooses his religion then you know it's time to move on with your life, even though it'll be painful to leave him. No one should have religion pushed upon them. If a person truly loves you, they'll accept you for who you are. I'm Christian and my husband is a very opinionated agnostic. We both accept that the other is not going to change their beliefs just because one is asked to. It's ok. But then you know this. I have a feeling your man may not change his mind about having you become Muslim. You need to prepare yourself for that just in case.

If you change for him, you'll end up resenting him and the marriage will eventually collapse because of that. It's better to lose your love now then several months down the road. I can imagine that right now you are feeling anger towards him and disappointment for the sudden change of heart.

[The Winslow]

If he loves you he'll set you free.

[Atropine Mama]

Oh, woman, you have done it. I was worried from the start about your relationship with this man, but now you've gone and brought the issue up and now I must give it to you with both barrels. Please let me preface this with some stuff first, though: I adore you. I think you're a wonderful woman -- brilliant, sweet natured, creative, big-hearted, lovely and strong. Take my thoughts for the price you paid for 'em, as free advice is always worth just about that. OK, here goes:

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? How could you even entertain the thought of entering into a relationship with a Muslim man? You, of all people, who has studied not just the language but the culture? You KNOW how women are treated in the culture of Islam, you KNOW how the law treats woman regarding relationships, identity, even basic freedoms. You are too strong, independent, intelligent and fierce to become what Islam demands of its women. YOU CANNOT CONVERT. You yourself have even said this, in your post, because you don't believe in your heart what a muslim woman must believe. Your faith is just as valid and important as his, and you can't expect him to convert to your pagan beliefs. The ultimatum he's given you should be a giant fucking red stop sign for you. I know this, and you know this -- but it's painful because of the love you're feeling for him as a human being. And he may very well be a fantastic guy, but he's asking you to become a NOTHING. A nothing, but his wife. DO NOT do this to yourself. Cut off contact with him, tell him whatever you need to to get rid of him, but for your own sake, move ON. Go, get back into dating there in the Netherlands, find yourself a nice blond hunk of a man, have a fling or look for a steady boyfriend, do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get your heart away from this man.

Now, I know this may brand me as a racist or some other such horseshit, but Cat, I cannot possibly support or even imagine you as a second wife to a muslim man. He may love you, but he obviously loves his faith more and does not value you as a woman with valid beliefs of her own. Tell me you don't want to live life as property.

I love you, girl, and I'm begging you to run, not walk, away from this man.

[Dawnstar]

First off - I am sorry that you have to go through this.

I agree with the whole if he loves you then he will accept you the way that you are. And this includes your religion. If you HAVE to be muslim to marry him and you really do not feel comfortable with making that change then maybe this is not the right thing for you.

[Black Angel]

Well, that's a pretty tough situation for you, Cat. It's been obvious from your posts how much you care about this guy, and he's putting you in a difficult spot now. Sad to say, I think what the others have said is all correct (and I think you know it too in your heart-of-hearts). You don't want to be forced to change, and you don't want to force him to change. :(

[Cat of Ulthar]

That sucks Cat. I would tell him that you do not make this decision lightly, but that your identity, beliefs and persona are more important as an individual, and that maybe you should take some time to think on things before leaping into a world-changing event and change things just to make love possible.

I hope that sounds more astute than it feels.

*hug*
See, there's a problem. To us, we are individuals. Yemenis don't count in individuals. Individual freedom, choice, all are quite alien to them. To them, you are a member of your family first, clan second, religion third, individual preferences are denied for the good of the clan. That is I think one of the motivations, that his family thinks ok, we are supposed to take this alien into our body, fine, but then she has to become as close to a member of our family as possible.
I don't want to be part of the family, I just want to live my own life and occasionally share that with tribesboy, but that is such an unknown concept...

He's going to have to decide who he loves more, you or is his religion.
Oh, but I already know the answer to that.:D Problem is I also love my religion more than him. My religion is the most important thing I have, and I would not give it up for anyone.

If you change for him, you'll end up resenting him and the marriage will eventually collapse because of that. It's better to lose your love now then several months down the road. I can imagine that right now you are feeling anger towards him and disappointment for the sudden change of heart.
You are right. :( I just feel awfully let down. I mean, it's only religion! We were not brought up to find that essential. He is. I don't know, and talking about it in Arabic on a phone that keeps breaking up is not ideal...

[Cat of Ulthar]

Oh, woman, you have done it. I was worried from the start about your relationship with this man, but now you've gone and brought the issue up and now I must give it to you with both barrels. Please let me preface this with some stuff first, though: I adore you. I think you're a wonderful woman -- brilliant, sweet natured, creative, big-hearted, lovely and strong. Take my thoughts for the price you paid for 'em, as free advice is always worth just about that. OK, here goes:

:oThanks a lot sweetheart.:)

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? How could you even entertain the thought of entering into a relationship with a Muslim man? You, of all people, who has studied not just the language but the culture? You KNOW how women are treated in the culture of Islam, you KNOW how the law treats woman regarding relationships, identity, even basic freedoms.
In general, yes. But Islam also holds science in high regard and bedouin and his family have expressed great awe at my scientific achievements, they completely understood that I had no time for children because I had to write books, and bedouin is very adamant that I must finish my studies and preferably continue to become a doctor if possible.
Also, marriage contracts are very much just that; contracts. You can have your conditions in there, and they are lawful if you both agree on them. My conditions will be: I can get a divorce whenever I want, I am allowed to work and travel whenever I want, and no babies.
Now, I know this may brand me as a racist or some other such horseshit, but Cat, I cannot possibly support or even imagine you as a second wife to a muslim man. He may love you, but he obviously loves his faith more and does not value you as a woman with valid beliefs of her own. Tell me you don't want to live life as property.
I don't in any way see you as racist, you are being realist to my rose-tinted view of things:). He loves his faith more, no problem, so do I. I just need him to accept that my faith is ok in its own right, which he seemed to do earlier, but not any more. I think it is not his own ideas but those of his family, so I hope we can come to some arrangement. I don't mind telling his family I am a christian, but I won't lie to him.

[Singularity]

Try to forget him and find a nice atheist?

That's the best advice I could give.

I mean, it's only religion!

:lol:

Tell that to all the people who have been murdered over the ages because of it.

[Ink Bleeder]

Great big hugs to you, Cat. This is a heartbreaking conflict. Do you know for sure that his family is pressuring him, and can you ask him if this is the case? Does he have a spiritual counselor he (or the two of you) can talk to about this?

I hate seeing you go through this. Dealbreakers are a bitch, but those boundaries are important.

[Name Lips]

His family doesn't even need to be pressuring him now. When he was with you, he was in love and lost in the moment and couldn't get you out of his mind... you know the deal. But now that you're gone, there's room for doubtful thoughts. Is this what is best for my family? What will I have to give up if I do this? All the years of being raised with a certain belief set have set his mind in certain patterns. In the heat of the moment, he could forget those things. But now, they're creeping back in. He's suddenly worrying that to get you, he's going to have to give up on everything in his life that he's counted as precious.

Now, I have to admit it's not fair for him to twist that around and change it so that in order for you to get him, you will have to give up everything in your life you've counted as precious, so that he will no longer have to.

I really don't think this is going to work. You're both demanding too high a level of sacrifice from the other, in the name of love. Love is NOT all you need. If you do this to marry him, or if he turns his back on his family/clan/religion to marry you, or even if you strike some weird half-assed compramise where somehow each of you sacrifice 50%, there will be too much resentment. You won't be happy.

If he marrys you, he's going to have to marry the WHOLE you. But that goes both ways. If you marry him, you'll have to marry the WHOLE him, and that includes his family/clan/religion because he is inseperable from them.

You're a wonderful person. And I've never met him but he sounds like a wonderful person too. And the love you two have is very real. Which is why this is so tremendously sad. :(

They say that it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. You're not going to agree with that right now because when you realize this can't work, you're going to wish you'd never gone on that trip and never met him. But the experience has made you both into new people. Sadder and wiser.

[The Winslow]

See, there's a problem. To us, we are individuals. Yemenis don't count in individuals. Individual freedom, choice, all are quite alien to them. To them, you are a member of your family first, clan second, religion third, individual preferences are denied for the good of the clan. That is I think one of the motivations, that his family thinks ok, we are supposed to take this alien into our body, fine, but then she has to become as close to a member of our family as possible.
I don't want to be part of the family, I just want to live my own life and occasionally share that with tribesboy, but that is such an unknown concept...

Oh, but I already know the answer to that.:D Problem is I also love my religion more than him. My religion is the most important thing I have, and I would not give it up for anyone.
So, let me get this straight. Either you ask him to betray his upbringing, his culture, and his faith for your sake; or you comply with his wishes and you betray your own upbringing, culture, and faith for his sake.

Regardless of how you choose to be with him, this union will be founded on betrayal and sacrifice.

If you love him set him free. If he loves you he'll set you free.

He may be a sweat-heart and a fantastic individual, but you're talking about a fundamental incompatibility here. Keep him as a friend, a penpal, a contact with Yemeni culture, but don't share your life with him because you're not compatible.

[Snatch]

... what am I supposed to do about that?:(


Well you really have two choices here: either convert or do not. If he requires you to become muslim, and you can live with that choice then your choice is clear (although probably not easy).

If you cannot live with becoming a muslim, then your choice is equally clear (and still not easy).

Sorry - I'm not much help here other than telling you there is a clear but difficult choice ahead. :(

[Atropine Mama]

Y'know, the fact that you're turning this over and over in your brain tells us that there is no clear cut "YES!" to conversion. I think you know what your answer is, and now the difficult part is putting that plan into action. It will be very painful, and for that I am so incredibly sorry. :(

[Eliezer]

See, there's a problem. To us, we are individuals. Yemenis don't count in individuals. Individual freedom, choice, all are quite alien to them. To them, you are a member of your family first, clan second, religion third, individual preferences are denied for the good of the clan. That is I think one of the motivations, that his family thinks ok, we are supposed to take this alien into our body, fine, but then she has to become as close to a member of our family as possible.
I don't want to be part of the family, I just want to live my own life and occasionally share that with tribesboy, but that is such an unknown concept...



Cat of Ulthar,

First off, all I can say is I'm so very sorry you're going through this. I don't know you well, but you seem like a sweet individual.

You've identified the root of one of two problems. Middle Eastern cultures are associative cultures and association (with family, tribe, nation, religious identity) define the individual more than individual actions. You are defined by who your brothers, sisters, fathers, uncles are and how they act, not by any singular accomplishment of living on your own. That singular fact means that for him to love you and marry you requires that he renounce all that defines him as an individual or that you renounce all that you are as an individual and become part of his family and tribe (which means being a Muslim) and at that point anything you do reflects upon who he is and who his family is for good or for ill.

The other root problem deals with how men and women interact culturally. First off, despite everything I've ever heard said by anyone from the middle east and the obvious affection between many married relationships do not function as they do in Western Europe or the US. I don't know this is the proper thread to go into with this, but my first thought when I read that you had found someone in Yemen was to think, "I hope it ends soon so the sadness is less". It can only end in sadness unless you are willing to give up essential parts of who you define yourself as.

In the end, I'm so sorry for the pain you're going through.

[Northcott]

Damn. :| I've been out of contact longer than I thought. Last I remembered, you were still goggle-eyed over that Brit in the Netherlands you were living with. (If my geriatric memory hasn't betrayed me once again, that is)

Sorry to hear about this, Cat. Add another voice to the chorus of; "If the hesitation is this great, don't go through with it". I think that Winslow hit the heart of the matter: one way or another, this union will require a fundamental betrayal of who one of the people in the couple is. Happy endings are rare enough in life. Ones based on that kind of action are perhaps less so.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

I'm really sorry to hear you're going though this.

I think my views are well known on the attitutes to women that most forms of Islam tend to inculcate in Muslim men.

You're a scientifically educated, non-muslim individualist woman from the liberal west. I fear there's just too much of an ideological gulf between you and a collectivist, clan-centric culture.

My advice would be to run into the arms of the nearest atheist/agnostic/moderate-christian/pagan hunk and fuck his brains out untill you can't remember this Muslim guy's name. But that's generally the male way of getting over someone...

Good luck. And don't compromsie your integrity or your intellectual independence - for anyone.

[Morbidity]

Go watch "Not without my daughter", then watch it again and then watch it a 3rd time. Do not convert. I find this sort of thing very scary.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Go watch "Not without my daughter", then watch it again and then watch it a 3rd time. Do not convert. I find this sort of thing very scary.

And then, whe you're done with that, go read Ayaan Hiris Ali's Infidel and then her collected essays, The Caged Virgin.

Then follow Morbidity's advice, again.

And then again.

Not that Morbs and I have strong views on this at all...

[Enk]

Walk away clean. There isn't any other advice I can give. Because try as you might you know that you're marrying the family, not him.

[Cat of Ulthar]

So, let me get this straight. Either you ask him to betray his upbringing, his culture, and his faith for your sake; or you comply with his wishes and you betray your own upbringing, culture, and faith for his sake.

See, I read that sentence again and again and I still cannot understand how I am asking anyone to betray anything. It is halal for a muslim to marry a non-muslim woman, and I won't do anything to shame him or his family. All I ask is that they accept that I am not a muslim, which has been sanctioned in the Qur'an so should not be a problem.

[Singularity]

See, I read that sentence again and again and I still cannot understand how I am asking anyone to betray anything. It is halal for a muslim to marry a non-muslim woman, and I won't do anything to shame him or his family. All I ask is that they accept that I am not a muslim, which has been sanctioned in the Qur'an so should not be a problem.

It shouldn't be a problem but it obviously is a problem. This is really no different than a member of one denomination saying that you must be part of that denomination to marry them. It happens all the time, and more often than not, it ends up being a deal breaker. Back in the dark ages, when I considered myself a religious person, my church advised me not to marry my now wife because she was Catholic. That was one of the moments when I realized just how manipulative religion was, and how it is a force in the world that stands in the way of personal happiness and enlightenment.

Don't walk away from this. Run.

[The Theocrat of Poon-Tang]

I feel for you, but please don't give in. Islam is a despicable religion as it's currently being practiced and intepreted by most muslims. There may be the kernals in there for a modern faith, but I have my doubts.

Any woman who willfully gives themselves to Islam willfully gives themselves to being treated like a second class citizen. I'm not sure any love is worth that.

[Cat of Ulthar]

Huh, that was a much milder reply from you than I'd expected...

I liked his way of viewing Islam as it appeared to me when we talked. I don't like the way that is becoming apparent now. I wonder what is the true view, and if it matters.

[King Vyper]

Huh, that was a much milder reply from you than I'd expected...

I liked his way of viewing Islam as it appeared to me when we talked. I don't like the way that is becoming apparent now. I wonder what is the true view, and if it matters.

Cat, Sometimes the correct answer is the obvious one. It is sitting there and looking you in your face. Don't let this sudden passionate love you developed blind you to the reality.

[Cat of Ulthar]

But I don't like reality!!! :tantrum:

I want my Arabian Nights dream!!!:(

[Space Cadet B^3]

Someday your prince will come...

[Limper]

But I don't like reality!!! :tantrum:

I want my Arabian Nights dream!!!:(


My vote would be to NOT convert and find a new dream, one better suited to your personality and zest for life.

[The Winslow]

See, I read that sentence again and again and I still cannot understand how I am asking anyone to betray anything.

You're asking him to have a modern Western romance with you: one where the couple passes before family, before religion, and before tradition. If he could do that, wouldn't he have done it?

He cannot. Instead, he's asking you to convert.

Either he becomes Dutch, and forsake clannishness to embrace individualism, or you become Yemeni, and become part of the clan, adopting everything that goes with it.

You're fooling yourself if you think it would be so easy for him to just agree with your views... Just as he's fooling himself if he thinks it would be so easy for you to just convert to Islam.

You both have the words just in front of you.
His blindness: "It's not in my heart and I couldn't lie to God," you say; "If you're not Muslim you don't love God," he replies.
Your blindness: "To them, you are a member of your family first, clan second, religion third, individual preferences are denied for the good of the clan," you know. "He'll just adopt my value and live with me like my British ex- did," you think.

[The Winslow]

But I don't like reality!!! :tantrum:
Nobody here does, or we wouldn't be on the Internet. </nerd joke>

[Harry]

Nobody here does, or we wouldn't be on the Internet. </nerd joke>

Ya know, every time I see this thread's title, I think "Hmmmm, if I become Muslim, Cat will marry me? OK."

[Atticus_of_Amber]

But I don't like reality!!! :tantrum:

I want my Arabian Nights dream!!!:(

Reality bites. But it's all we have.

[Radu]

I'd say that this is a painful lesson: by making his marriage to you conditional on religion, he's told you quite a bit about his priorities. I do not doubt that there are many things that make him attractive to you, but consider what he's asking you to do.

There's no easy way to do it, but you've got to walk away. You cannot compromise yourself for love of him, no matter how good things were. A relationship based on coercion, no matter how sweetly delivered, can only result in torment and pain for one or both parties.

If it is him pressuring you, you don't need it. Walk off. If it's his family pressuring you through him, you still don't need it. Walk away.

[Eliezer]

See, I read that sentence again and again and I still cannot understand how I am asking anyone to betray anything. It is halal for a muslim to marry a non-muslim woman, and I won't do anything to shame him or his family. All I ask is that they accept that I am not a muslim, which has been sanctioned in the Qur'an so should not be a problem.

I don't think the core issue is Islam. The culture we're talking about has a lot of non-Islamic values as Darkfire could tell you.

Consider some other possibilities since we are talking about a conservative, Arabian peninsula, tribal individual you're dealing with.

1. Is he aware you're not a virgin? (Yeah, major assumption on my part, but if so it would be a problem for virtually all men that meet the criteria outlined above)
2. Does he feel you would be an obedient wife? (Islam thing may be a test of obedience and part of the process of domination where he does not feel challenged or threatened by you)
3. Is he intimidated by you because you come from a higher economic status and a country that is economically/technologically more advanced than his?
4. Is he intimidated by you because you are better educated than him?
5. Is he intimidated by your willingness to pursue him? Does he consider that unbecoming of a woman?


Now one final thing to consider: Shaming is one of the greatest sins in their society and once a women declares herself for a man or a man declares himself for a women with the consent of her family she is taken and should conduct herself with respect to other men as if she is married to the man. If the man repudiates her at that time suicide is the best option for the woman. So despite his fears about a relationship he may not want to shame you or put you in a position where you commit suicide so he may be offering a path that proves you'll be a good Muslim/Arab wife and allow you to keep your honor/life.

[Naked Nape]

It does seem like he is being pressured. I don't think either of you should have to compromise anything of yourselves. I'm sorry you are going through this, but I do believe that if the compromising starts here, it would only continue throughout many aspects of your relationship, for the entire time you are together. It would not be a healthy situation for either of you.

[Bagpuss]

Sorry coming late to the thread but...

Didn't Allah say "Let there be no compulsion in religion"

Having the man you love say I won't marry you unless you convert seems like a pretty major compulsion to me, why does he go against the word of Allah?

[The Winslow]

Because religion is very rarely a question of doctrine, and much more often a question of social conformism. This is a textbook example.

That's the same thing that Cat is saying: "But I don't understand, the Koran says it's hallal" -- it's not a question of what the Koran says, no matter what the Muslims themselves may say. It's a question of customs, traditions, and such. Which are often confused with doctrines by those who did not really study their scriptures in depth; but have actually no real theological basis and are quite often in contradiction of doctrine (but everybody ignores that and pretend it doesn't).

[Ink Bleeder]

Because religion is very rarely a question of doctrine, and much more often a question of social conformism. This is a textbook example.

That's the same thing that Cat is saying: "But I don't understand, the Koran says it's hallal" -- it's not a question of what the Koran says, no matter what the Muslims themselves may say. It's a question of customs, traditions, and such. Which are often confused with doctrines by those who did not really study their scriptures in depth; but have actually no real theological basis and are quite often in contradiction of doctrine (but everybody ignores that and pretend it doesn't).

For millions of examples, see Christianity.

[The Winslow]

"Kill them all for the greatest glory of the Thou Shalt Not Kill Guy! Destroy your enemy to honor of his Forgive your enemies Son!"

But Christianity is not far from being the only example. I'm pretty sure if the Mahatma Gandhi had created a cult, they would be terrorists now.

BLOOD FOR THE PEACE & LOVE GOD!
BONES FOR HIS COMFY SOFA!

[Harry]

Having the man you love say I won't marry you unless you convert seems like a pretty major compulsion to me, why does he go against the word of Allah?

My mashgiach, Frank, has offered on occasion to set me up with a nice Jewish girl. He's actually getting kinda serious now. He and his wife think I should have kids. But he told me today that I'd likely have to convert. "Not a problem", I told him, since I really don't have any issues with Judaism and they seem to thrive on the occasional liberal. I told Frank that I'd even go to the synagogue when I needed to, and promised to never mention Spinoza. He nodded sagely, but then said "...there's the matter of.... You know." Told him, "Hey, I was born in 1965. Standard part of the deal back then" which pleased him.

So, well, there are a lot of things to consider when marrying into old fashioned Middle Eastern religions, good and bad, but there's only one which demands that you lop off part of your roger.

[cnath.rm]

So, well, there are a lot of things to consider when marrying into old fashioned Middle Eastern religions, good and bad, but there's only one which demands that you lop off part of your roger.Hmm, I thought that Islam did as well, but that they did it later on as opposed to when one is dealing with an infant.

[The Winslow]

Yeah, it's typically done around the age of 8 to 10 in Muslim countries. They see it as a sort of rite of passage.

[Darkfire]

It's not compulsory though :)

[Tetsubo]

This does in fact suck. My sympathies.

If he can't love you for who you are right *now*, walk away. It will hurt like broken glass. But converting against your true beliefs will be worse. It will also be disrespectful to the Muslim faith itself.

Never get in a relationship with someone's future self. Love who they are now, or not at all.

I had a roomie that faked being Catholic so he could marry is hard core Italian Catholic girlfriend. I was disgusted. The marriage failed as well.

[The Winslow]

It's not compulsory though :)
See my previous point about the weight of traditions and customs being much more important than the weight of "theological truth."

[Cat of Ulthar]

I don't think the core issue is Islam. The culture we're talking about has a lot of non-Islamic values as Darkfire could tell you. True.

Consider some other possibilities since we are talking about a conservative, Arabian peninsula, tribal individual you're dealing with.

1. Is he aware you're not a virgin? (Yeah, major assumption on my part, but if so it would be a problem for virtually all men that meet the criteria outlined above)
Not only that, but I told him how many men I had sex with...:D Like I said, when it was just the two of us talking, he didn´t seem to mind any of my stranger (to him) aspects. He wholly accepted me being a pagan non-virgin mild alcoholic drug abuser.
But even his family will know, after all, I just got divorced... No problem there, a divorced woman can marry again.
2. Does he feel you would be an obedient wife? (Islam thing may be a test of obedience and part of the process of domination where he does not feel challenged or threatened by you)
No clue. I haven´t been very obedient up to now and I don´t intend to become it. But there haven´t really been situations in which he asked me to do a specific thing or something, so I cannot predict how it will be.
3. Is he intimidated by you because you come from a higher economic status and a country that is economically/technologically more advanced than his?
Again, I cannot say for sure, but he doesn´t seem to be very intimidated by anything. He was amazed by my contact lense: What on earth kind of science fiction is that??? but he doesn´t seem impressed by my education or money, though he finds my education important and a source of pride (he keeps telling everyone how many languages I speak) and understands that I want to pay for my own stuff occasionally (though he paid for most).
5. Is he intimidated by your willingness to pursue him? Does he consider that unbecoming of a woman?
I don´t know, I have considered that. As far as I am aware in their culture the pursuing is done by the families, so as far as that goes I am already an abomination. All I know is what I heard from another guy who wanted to marry a girl he met and loved, for whom he desperately wanted to struggle, but she didn´t want to struggle for him. He said he knew then that they could not be together, because both partners need to work to get together.


Now one final thing to consider: Shaming is one of the greatest sins in their society and once a women declares herself for a man or a man declares himself for a women with the consent of her family she is taken and should conduct herself with respect to other men as if she is married to the man. If the man repudiates her at that time suicide is the best option for the woman. So despite his fears about a relationship he may not want to shame you or put you in a position where you commit suicide so he may be offering a path that proves you'll be a good Muslim/Arab wife and allow you to keep your honor/life.
Er... I don´t quite get this bit?
Sorry coming late to the thread but...

Didn't Allah say "Let there be no compulsion in religion"

Having the man you love say I won't marry you unless you convert seems like a pretty major compulsion to me, why does he go against the word of Allah?

Good point and definitely one I´ll be using in coming conversations...

[Darkfire]

See my previous point about the weight of traditions and customs being much more important than the weight of "theological truth."

Yeah I noticed, your posts have made good reading :)

[cnath.rm]

Yeah I noticed, your posts have made good reading :)and yet strange reading when I connect them with the avitar/sig :D

Cat... if the guy can't see you for the amazing, kick-arse catch that you are, and be willing to stand up to his family/clan/etc for you, then it's better to get over and done with getting your heart ripped out so that the regeneration process can start. It takes a hell of a long time, but it happens eventually.

[Eliezer]

Er... I don´t quite get this bit?


Let me share an anecdote to illustrate from one of my "cultural awareness" instructors. It is a true story.

There was an American single man assigned to work in an embassy in Jordan. He noticed a single Jordanian secretary working there that seemed cute and pleasant and asked her out. She could not go in the traditional dating sense, but was allowed to go on escorted dates with brothers, fathers, etc present and watching if not actually sitting at the same table. So a few dates were engaged upon. The man got transfered to a different country and broke off his relationship with her. He wasn't interested in marriage, just company and a good time (even though there was no possibility of sex, kissing or even hand holding). She committed suicide for having been rejected after a man had "claimed" her and her family had agreed to this.

The same thing happened in the next country. 2 women dead because he took them on accompanied dates and then didn't marry them.

Now, in your situation and how it applies: He may have already made a very firm decision that he cannot marry you and is putting up obstacles for you to break it off because that is the kinder thing to do. He's probably not worried about you committing suicide if he rejects you, but he probably considers it very much the "right" way to break things off.

Along the same vein of the sin of causing another person to be embarrassed or to feel "shame": Anything that you may have related that shocked or would have offended his sensibilities his proper reaction would have been a very neutral one. If he was deeply shocked by something instead of looking at you like you'd grown a third eye in your forehead he should have made non-committal responses that were very neutral. To do otherwise or even express the slightest disapproval would have been to "shame" you and been very, very bad manners.

So it might be worth re-evaluating in your mind conversations with him about yourself and how he might truly feel about you based upon a neutral reaction meaning anything from slight disapproval to "OMFG, get this freak of nature away from me".

:D Just my perspective on things from having visited Arab countries and a lot of cultural training. The only time I ever got a negative reaction from anyone was when my friend and I responded to a direct query about a patch on our uniform (we were military intelligence assigned to Egypt as "translators" for joint Egyptian-NATO maneuvers). In Arabic, we indicated that we were military intelligence. The poor man jumped up out of his chair (banging it against the wall) and did a horrible forced laugh that turned into sobs when he saw we were not joking. It was only then that I really realized the terror that a police state can impose upon it's citizenry. Military Intelligence is the name given to the secret police in Egypt.

[Teve]

Cat, I don't know you, so please forgive my presumptious response to your delema.
I have always had a rule that has served me well: The one who gives the ultimatium loses. No matter the love, or friendship, if you cannot accept me as you found me, then you do not love me the way I need to be loved.
As far as continuing a relationship compromise is always necessicary. Let me give you an example of far less import than the one you are facing.

I have dogs, (and cats, and several pets) If I were to meet a man, or any "friend" that told me, I love you but you must give up the dog... I couldn't do it, not because the dog is more important, but because of the principle of the thing.
But if we were in a relationship and I without discussion brought in a dog... then the demand is reasonable, because we should have been in it together.

But if he met me with the dog, he has no right to ask me to give it up, knowing what it means to me.

I would not ask a boyfriend to give up a job, or motorcycle, or a pet, I may talk with them about it, but not demand or create an ultimatium, if those things are a deal breaker for me, then I would not get into the relationship. These things do not approach the significance of religious demands...

Perhaps I have oversimplified your situation, if so I apologize...

[Glass]

That...really, really sucks, Cat. I'm sorry. :(

[Cat of Ulthar]

There was an American single man assigned to work in an embassy in Jordan. He noticed a single Jordanian secretary working there that seemed cute and pleasant and asked her out. She could not go in the traditional dating sense, but was allowed to go on escorted dates with brothers, fathers, etc present and watching if not actually sitting at the same table. So a few dates were engaged upon. The man got transfered to a different country and broke off his relationship with her. He wasn't interested in marriage, just company and a good time (even though there was no possibility of sex, kissing or even hand holding). She committed suicide for having been rejected after a man had "claimed" her and her family had agreed to this.

The same thing happened in the next country. 2 women dead because he took them on accompanied dates and then didn't marry them.
Let me first say: What an incredibly stupid wanker!!!
I can imagine making this mistake once, and feeling terrible about it, but making it twice more!? Please take this man out of the Middle East at once, he is blatantly unsuitable.

Now, in your situation and how it applies: He may have already made a very firm decision that he cannot marry you and is putting up obstacles for you to break it off because that is the kinder thing to do. He's probably not worried about you committing suicide if he rejects you, but he probably considers it very much the "right" way to break things off.
I have thought about this as well, but the way he behaves seems very much unlike someone who wants to break things off. When I said I could not convert to islam, he pleaded with me to at least consider it, read books about it, etc. Also he keeps on getting in touch. I have told him repeatedly, while we were in Yemen and also on the phone, that if he ever found himself no longer in love, or for any other reason wanting to break off the relationship, to tell me straightaway so I could get on with my life and find another husband, instead of coming back to Yemen to find him unwilling; and I promised him the same. He knows my past and my attitude and I think it unlikely he thinks I would commit suicide over him, I think I have made it clear that I would rather he break things off now than later, and I will get on with my life.

Also, when I was visiting his family, his dad told me about one of his sisters, who was engaged to a guy from the next village, but the guy had just broken off the engagement. There was some grumbling at this (stupid guy, don't know what he's missing, now we need to find her another man), but it did not seem like a huge disaster.

Along the same vein of the sin of causing another person to be embarrassed or to feel "shame": Anything that you may have related that shocked or would have offended his sensibilities his proper reaction would have been a very neutral one. If he was deeply shocked by something instead of looking at you like you'd grown a third eye in your forehead he should have made non-committal responses that were very neutral. To do otherwise or even express the slightest disapproval would have been to "shame" you and been very, very bad manners.
I know this behaviour from other people but people in Yemen seem on the whole painfully direct and honest. And we have had discussions about things that he did find unacceptable, and he did not attempt to hide this.

I appreciate your educated comments on the situation though, thanks for giving me stuff to think about and please continue to do so!

[The Winslow]

Let me first say: What an incredibly stupid wanker!!!
I can imagine making this mistake once, and feeling terrible about it, but making it twice more!?

Once more, not twice, from my own reading.

[Eliezer]

Let me first say: What an incredibly stupid wanker!!!
I can imagine making this mistake once, and feeling terrible about it, but making it twice more!? Please take this man out of the Middle East at once, he is blatantly unsuitable.


He's not longer with the US State Dept. He didn't realize it had happened the first time until it came to light at the second country and he tried to justify himself by saying he'd done the same thing before. Poor guy, ignorant cuss who should have known better. Poor family, getting involved with a stupid American. Poor girls, victims of a culture that treats women as possessions :mad:


I have thought about this as well, but the way he behaves seems very much unlike someone who wants to break things off. When I said I could not convert to islam, he pleaded with me to at least consider it, read books about it, etc. Also he keeps on getting in touch. I have told him repeatedly, while we were in Yemen and also on the phone, that if he ever found himself no longer in love, or for any other reason wanting to break off the relationship, to tell me straightaway so I could get on with my life and find another husband, instead of coming back to Yemen to find him unwilling; and I promised him the same. He knows my past and my attitude and I think it unlikely he thinks I would commit suicide over him, I think I have made it clear that I would rather he break things off now than later, and I will get on with my life.

Hmm, then he personally may prefer to not have conflicts over religion. I suspect that even though marrying a non-Muslim may not be haram, it may be considered "unwise" and something that is likely to bring sorrow to the marriage. I think this is playing into things a lot and may be influenced by his family.

The other factor is considerations of suitability of you being a proper wife. You have mark against you coming from the "decadent west where all the women are whores and all the men have sex all day long with all the slutty women" (man, if only getting sex were so easy :rolleyes:) so converting to Islam may improve your prospects as a suitable wife. Personally, I think this probably plays a minor role, but it may be bigger than I suspect.

Something else to consider is that he really is a believer and because he loves you he wants you to submit to Allah and become one of the believers too so you can enjoy the same blessings of believing.

Another possibility is peer pressure from the guys. If he marries a girl who can divorce him and she eventually does decide to divorce him then the shame could be pretty severe. He may already be getting teasings from his friends about marrying an overtly sexual woman who will give him sex whenever he wants and can divorce him. It's a little emasculating and smacks of the woman dominating the man in the minds of many Arabs. I don't know how likely this is, but it is a real potential.


Also, when I was visiting his family, his dad told me about one of his sisters, who was engaged to a guy from the next village, but the guy had just broken off the engagement. There was some grumbling at this (stupid guy, don't know what he's missing, now we need to find her another man), but it did not seem like a huge disaster.

That's really good news. Given their interactions with the tourism business and not taking themselves too seriously they may be a lot more relaxed than many Arabs I've met who feel socially vulnerable to the judgment of others. That said this may seem like a trivial thing, but breaking off a marriage before establishing "ownership" of the espoused wife by certain activities isn't usually a big deal. After that establishment of "ownership" then problems arise.


I know this behaviour from other people but people in Yemen seem on the whole painfully direct and honest. And we have had discussions about things that he did find unacceptable, and he did not attempt to hide this.


Well, that's very refreshing. If that's the case then that is a wonderful thing and Yemen has a great advantage culturally in my mind.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong about the specifics and my generalizations, but my experiences in general lead me to believe that western women marrying middle eastern men is a path filled with many, many dangers and pitfalls.

Something else to consider is that in Saudi Arabia (and perhaps other countries on the peninsula) and in Egypt the opportunity to have had sex (unaccompanied time together) is equivalent to having had sex. They can't accuse you of having had sex since religiously/legally they have to catch you in the act with multiple witnesses, but they treat it the same way. I don't know if that applies in Yemen, but it might be something to consider in how the family interacts with you. If you've had unaccompanied time then you're either a whore in their eyes or you're already effectively married to your love.

[Cat of Ulthar]

I sincerely hope I'm wrong about the specifics and my generalizations, but my experiences in general lead me to believe that western women marrying middle eastern men is a path filled with many, many dangers and pitfalls.

You are right, and I keep telling my students this, though usually the biggest problems start when the kids come.

Anyway, I have thought about this a lot and though I still was madly in love I really really was hurt by his comment that my religion is wrong. And I just cannot convert to islam. Period.

So I decided that indeed it probably was better to break things off before I got too heavily involved in all this, and, frankly, horribly calculating shrew that I am, decided Beltane + gaming convention was a good time to look for a rebound, even if it were a one night stand it might get my mind off being crazily in love with this mad Arab.

I won first prize.

[Atropine Mama]

I won first prize.
:highfive: Go, girl!