This should amuse the atheists

[Name Lips]

Link (http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/2008/20080310/en_1.html)


The Great Tantra Challenge

On 3 March 2008, in a popular TV show, Sanal Edamaruku, the president of Rationalist International, challenged India’s most “powerful” tantrik (black magician) to demonstrate his powers on him. That was the beginning of an unprecedented experiment. After all his chanting of mantra (magic words) and ceremonies of tantra failed, the tantrik decided to kill Sanal Edamaruku with the “ultimate destruction ceremony” on live TV. Sanal Edamaruku agreed and sat in the altar of the black magic ritual. India TV observed skyrocketing viewership rates.

Everything started, when Uma Bharati (former chief minister of the state of Madhya Pradesh) accused her political opponents in a public statement of using tantrik powers to inflict damage upon her. In fact, within a few days, the unlucky lady had lost her favorite uncle, hit the door of her car against her head and found her legs covered with wounds and blisters.

India TV, one of India’s major Hindi channels with national outreach, invited Sanal Edamaruku for a discussion on “Tantrik power versus Science”. Pandit Surinder Sharma, who claims to be the tantrik of top politicians and is well known from his TV shows, represented the other side. During the discussion, the tantrik showed a small human shape of wheat flour dough, laid a thread around it like a noose and tightened it. He claimed that he was able to kill any person he wanted within three minutes by using black magic. Sanal challenged him to try and kill him.

The tantrik tried. He chanted his mantras (magic words): “Om lingalingalinalinga, kilikili….” But his efforts did not show any impact on Sanal – not after three minutes, and not after five. The time was extended and extended again. The original discussion program should have ended here, but the “breaking news” of the ongoing great tantra challenge was overrunning all program schedules.

Now the tantrik changed his technique. He started sprinkling water on Sanal and brandishing a knife in front of him. Sometimes he moved the blade all over his body. Sanal did not flinch. Then he touched Sanal’s head with his hand, rubbing and rumpling up his hair, pressing his forehead, laying his hand over his eyes, pressing his fingers against his temples. When he pressed harder and harder, Sanal reminded him that he was supposed to use black magic only, not forceful attacks to bring him down. The tantrik took a new run: water, knife, fingers, mantras. But Sanal kept looking very healthy and even amused.

After nearly two hours, the anchor declared the tantrik’s failure. The tantrik, unwilling to admit defeat, tried the excuse that a very strong god whom Sanal might be worshipping obviously protected him. “No, I am an atheist,” said Sanal Edamaruku. Finally, the disgraced tantrik tried to save his face by claiming that there was a never-failing special black magic for ultimate destruction, which could, however, only been done at night. Bad luck again, he did not get away with this, but was challenged to prove his claim this very night in another “breaking news” live program.

During the next three hours, India TV ran announcements for The Great Tantra Challenge that called several hundred million people to their TV sets.

The encounter took place under the open night sky. The tantrik and his two assistants were kindling a fire and staring into the flames. Sanal was in good humour. Once the ultimate magic was invoked, there wouldn’t be any way back, the tantrik warned. Within two minutes, Sanal would get crazy, and one minute later he would scream in pain and die. Didn’t he want to save his life before it was too late? Sanal laughed, and the countdown begun. The tantriks chanted their “Om lingalingalingalinga, kilikilikili….” followed by ever changing cascades of strange words and sounds. The speed increased hysterically. They threw all kinds of magic ingredients into the flames that produced changing colours, crackling and fizzling sounds and white smoke. While chanting, the tantrik came close to Sanal, moved his hands in front of him and touched him, but was called back by the anchor. After the earlier covert attempts of the tantrik to use force against Sanal, he was warned to keep distance and avoid touching Sanal. But the tantrik “forgot” this rule again and again.

Now the tantrik wrote Sanal’s name on a sheet of paper, tore it into small pieces, dipped them into a pot with boiling butter oil and threw them dramatically into the flames. Nothing happened. Singing and singing, he sprinkled water on Sanal, mopped a bunch of peacock feathers over his head, threw mustard seed into the fire and other outlandish things more. Sanal smiled, nothing happened, and time was running out. Only seven more minutes before midnight, the tantrik decided to use his ultimate weapon: the clod of wheat flour dough. He kneaded it and powdered it with mysterious ingredients, then asked Sanal to touch it. Sanal did so, and the grand magic finale begun. The tantrik pierced blunt nails on the dough, then cut it wildly with a knife and threw them into the fire. That moment, Sanal should have broken down. But he did not. He laughed. Forty more seconds, counted the anchor, twenty, ten, five… it’s over!

Millions of people must have uttered a sigh of relief in front their TVs. Sanal was very much alive. Tantra power had miserably failed. Tantriks are creating such a scaring atmosphere that even people, who know that black magic has no base, can just break down out of fear, commented a scientist during the program. It needs enormous courage and confidence to challenge them by actually putting one’s life at risk, he said. By doing so, Sanal Edamaruku has broken the spell, and has taken away much of the fear of those who witnessed his triumph.

In this night, one of the most dangerous and wide spread superstitions in India suffered a severe blow.

The whole program is video-recorded and is available. If you want a copy, please contact: info_desk@rationalistinternational.net

India is a very superstitious place. Hundreds of women are killed every year for "witchcraft," while Black Magic practitioners like this fellow rule little fear cults where nobody challenges them because they'll wake up dead the next day.

[Eliezer]

That's beautiful...

I find the attempt to control people through threats of magic or intimidation and fear, whether they are based on religion, superstition or politics disgraceful.

And people using bad magic of their opponents to explain misfortune is disgraceful as well.

[Pigs in Space]

I'm surprised the Tantrik guy agreed to do it on TV.

[Pigs in Space]

A little while ago in Oz, there was this lady who claimed she didn't need to eat, and she could absorb nutrients from the air.

So they put her in a hotel room or something to monitor her, and after she was hospitalized, she claimed it was because of the impure air in the city.

But she won't let another trial go through.

[The Winslow]

Yeah, I had heard about that one. It's really funny and should happen more often, and in more places in the world.

Africa desperately needs something like that, too.

[FeatsofClay]

Yeah, I had heard about that one. It's really funny and should happen more often, and in more places in the world.

Africa desperately needs something like that, too.

And North America.

[The Winslow]

And North America.

True, the ignorant primitive savages in North America desperately need to have the lights of civilisation brought to them -- I heard they still count in inches and feet, for example, can you believe it? -- but I assure you it's nowhere as bad as this kind of things (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080422/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_congo_democratic_witchcraft).

[Maddman]

True, the ignorant primitive savages in North America desperately need to have the lights of civilisation brought to them -- I heard they still count in inches and feet, for example, can you believe it? -- but I assure you it's nowhere as bad as this kind of things (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080422/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_congo_democratic_witchcraft).

If there's anything Africa could use less of, its penises.

[The Winslow]

Point.

[Singularity]

And North America.

Well, you know, trials of this nature don't work on Christianity because one of the core religious "truths" is that God refuses to provide any sort of proof of his own existence; he requires unquestioning faith in Him from his followers. Its the perfect scam.

[The Winslow]

So militant atheists could claim to be the agents of God's will, testing the faith of the believers to sort the chaff from wheat, yadda yadda yadada; and completely screw over the evangelists' mind?

Seems great!

[Radu the Wanderer]

Experiments have been conducted along similar lines regarding the power of Christian prayer in aiding healing. Three groups who were scheduled to undergo the same operation were (Group A) not prayed for and not informed, (Group B) prayed for and not informed, and (Group C) prayed for and informed. The end results showed very little difference between groups A and B, but an increased rate of complications and longer convalescence in group C. Perhaps it was performance anxiety?

[The Winslow]

There should have been a Group D of people who were not prayed for, but who were told they were. Yeah, it would have been lying, I know.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

There should have been a Group D of people who were not prayed for, but who were told they were. Yeah, it would have been lying, I know.

How would that be any more unethical than giving test subjects a placebo?

Btw, Daniel Dennett's Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon has an intersting section on the role of religion and the evolution of the suggestability trait in humans. If you get sick, and the tribal witch-doctor exploits this by doing a "spell" and telling you it will heal you, if you are sugestable, the "spell" will often "work" - because hope has a huge impact on the imune system.

This factors in with one of Richard Dawkins few doubts about his campaign agaisnt homeopathy. Doctor's aren't allowed to lie to patents and prescribe them placebos. But homeopaths tell untruths all teh time about effectiveness of their complete bogus cures (of course, msot homeopaths have the added advantage of actually believing their own BS). Thus homeopathy may well be useful as a means of selling placebos...

[Harry]

If you get sick, and the tribal witch-doctor exploits this by doing a "spell" and telling you it will heal you, if you are sugestable, the "spell" will often "work" - because hope has a huge impact on the imune system.

I always thought that was because most people get over your average illness in no time. Usually around about the same time they start thinking about heading over to ol' Papa Joe's Voodoo Hut.

[pandiculator]

...core religious "truths" is that God refuses to provide any sort of proof of his own existence; he requires unquestioning faith in Him from his followers.

Wow. That's such a false statement I don't know if you just lack the knowledge on what the "core truths" are of Christianity, or you're trying to be funny.

[Name Lips]

How would that be any more unethical than giving test subjects a placebo?


Study participants who are given placebos are not told that it is genuine medicine. They are told that they may or may not be receiving medicine. Emerald was one of the test subjects for the HPV vaccine, and they said "You might be immune to HPV afterward. You might not. Do not assume you are."

[Singularity]

Wow. That's such a false statement I don't know if you just lack the knowledge on what the "core truths" are of Christianity, or you're trying to be funny.

*Sigh*

So then exactly what proof does he offer of his own existence?

Nevermind. There's no way we're going to get anywhere with this discussion. There's always one in ever group.

[Eliezer]

*Sigh*

So then exactly what proof does he offer of his own existence?

Nevermind. There's no way we're going to get anywhere with this discussion. There's always one in ever group.

Depends on what you want out of proof and depends on which Christians you ask. Many Christians do hold that "knowing" god is an important process that involves multiple layers of experience and acquired knowledge.

You are entitled to your opinion of Christianity being a perfect scam, that it's "evidence" is all a traveshamockery or whatever you care to opine.

But you are entirely right that the Christian God has made every effort to conceal his existence from scientific proof or any 3rd party observable proof. As the workings of the brain are revealed I wonder how things will play out.

[FeatsofClay]

Well, you know, trials of this nature don't work on Christianity because one of the core religious "truths" is that God refuses to provide any sort of proof of his own existence; he requires unquestioning faith in Him from his followers. Its the perfect scam.

I didn't say shit about Christians, I was refering to the "Dreamcatcher and wrist magnet" crowd.

[Singularity]

I didn't say shit about Christians, I was refering to the "Dreamcatcher and wrist magnet" crowd.

Hey, at least their bogus religion involves some small amount of fun.

[FeatsofClay]

traveshamockery .

This will be added to the tile of my autobiography along with Varaj's "I learned a lot from my complete and total destruction"

So, now we have "Traveshamockery: I learned a lot from my complete and total destruction"

Damn, I better start writing!

[Space Cadet B^3]

I'll do layout and cover!

[FeatsofClay]

Hey, at least their bogus religion involves some small amount of fun.

How is a wooden hoop by your bed more fun than group worship and ice cream socials?

You are sounding more than a bit bitter there Sing.

[Space Cadet B^3]

A buddy of mine made me a homemade dreamcatcher. He asked mother nature for permission to take the branch from the willow tree. He harvested the feathers from his barn and put it all together nicely. It was so asymetrical it was almost artistic, I had it around for a good many years... until a little over 2 years ago, when my kittens got big enough to catch those dangling feathers blowing with the ceiling fan...

Art with a demise...

Now I don't think it would ever have helped my dreams, but it was kind of fun having one constructed all native style and not one on my rearview mirror that doubles as a coconut scented air freshener. ;)

[pandiculator]

*Sigh*

So then exactly what proof does he offer of his own existence?

Nevermind. There's no way we're going to get anywhere with this discussion. There's always one in ever group.

And now you make assumptions based on my willingness to call you out on what is a pretty belligerent falsehood. I'm suddenly "one of them".

If you had read my post, rather than brush me aside as one of "them", you might have gleaned that I didn't specify what, exactly, I disagreed with. I'm not so foolish as to come here and cry out that God has manifest himself innumerably in the physical realm: I don't believe that, one bit. I doubt so much that God has ever made himself corporeal in this Earth, other than miracles and the like.

You make a claim that a critical tenant of faith (I'm making the assuption Christianity) is unquestioning belief in God, at all times. This is such horrible bunk that to not call it out would be to do a disservice to the principles I believe in.

Questioning is perhaps the biggest and most importiant element of Faith. Doubt, uncertainty, these things are the very elements that drive the whole idea of Faith as a working system.

In fact, one of the critical tenets of Protestant faiths is developing a personal relationship with God - something that can only be done through asking questions, confronting doubts, and living with a level of uncertainty.

It might do you some good, before you go running your thinly-veiled anti-religious sentiment all over the place, to at least make sure you are raging against elements of religion that deserve to be raged against (of which I concur there are) and stop throwing all the believers into a bin that you can write off as "those people" in "every crowd".

[Singularity]

And now you make assumptions based on my willingness to call you out on what is a pretty belligerent falsehood. I'm suddenly "one of them".

If you had read my post, rather than brush me aside as one of "them", you might have gleaned that I didn't specify what, exactly, I disagreed with. I'm not so foolish as to come here and cry out that God has manifest himself innumerably in the physical realm: I don't believe that, one bit. I doubt so much that God has ever made himself corporeal in this Earth, other than miracles and the like.

You make a claim that a critical tenant of faith (I'm making the assuption Christianity) is unquestioning belief in God, at all times. This is such horrible bunk that to not call it out would be to do a disservice to the principles I believe in.

Questioning is perhaps the biggest and most importiant element of Faith. Doubt, uncertainty, these things are the very elements that drive the whole idea of Faith as a working system.

In fact, one of the critical tenets of Protestant faiths is developing a personal relationship with God - something that can only be done through asking questions, confronting doubts, and living with a level of uncertainty.

It might do you some good, before you go running your thinly-veiled anti-religious sentiment all over the place, to at least make sure you are raging against elements of religion that deserve to be raged against (of which I concur there are) and stop throwing all the believers into a bin that you can write off as "those people" in "every crowd".

No seriously, nevermind.

[FeatsofClay]

No seriously, nevermind.

WOW!

I was expecting a "Whatever!" but you went way beyond my expectations. Someone save this witty reparte for the next board switchover!

[Space Cadet B^3]

And now you make assumptions based on my willingness to call you out on what is a pretty belligerent falsehood. I'm suddenly "one of them".

If you had read my post, rather than brush me aside as one of "them", you might have gleaned that I didn't specify what, exactly, I disagreed with. I'm not so foolish as to come here and cry out that God has manifest himself innumerably in the physical realm: I don't believe that, one bit. I doubt so much that God has ever made himself corporeal in this Earth, other than miracles and the like.

You make a claim that a critical tenant of faith (I'm making the assuption Christianity) is unquestioning belief in God, at all times. This is such horrible bunk that to not call it out would be to do a disservice to the principles I believe in.

Questioning is perhaps the biggest and most importiant element of Faith. Doubt, uncertainty, these things are the very elements that drive the whole idea of Faith as a working system.

In fact, one of the critical tenets of Protestant faiths is developing a personal relationship with God - something that can only be done through asking questions, confronting doubts, and living with a level of uncertainty.

It might do you some good, before you go running your thinly-veiled anti-religious sentiment all over the place, to at least make sure you are raging against elements of religion that deserve to be raged against (of which I concur there are) and stop throwing all the believers into a bin that you can write off as "those people" in "every crowd".Some of these things you say sound almost alien to me, I grew up being expected to believe. Expected to undeniably accept what god had in mind for me. If I'd been exposed to attitudes more like this, I might not have said "Fuck this, God. I don't know if I want to be in your fraternity any more"

It was about 10 years ago I had my crisis of faith. Forced to sing in a choir I had no desire to be in, and just feeling so wrong about all the trappings and ritual we get so wrapped up in. Stand here, sit here, sing here, pray here.

Maybe my argument never really was with god, but with the church... you've given me food for thought.

[FeatsofClay]

Maybe my argument never really was with god, but with the church... you've given me food for thought.

This understanding extends to many tings. I didn't hate baseball, I hated Little League. I didn't hate English Literature, I hated Ms. Flannery's class.

Don't let the "organizers" ruin anything for you.

[Singularity]

Some of these things you say sound almost alien to me, I grew up being expected to believe. Expected to undeniably accept what god had in mind for me. If I'd been exposed to attitudes more like this, I might not have said "Fuck this, God. I don't know if I want to be in your fraternity any more"

It was about 10 years ago I had my crisis of faith. Forced to sing in a choir I had no desire to be in, and just feeling so wrong about all the trappings and ritual we get so wrapped up in. Stand here, sit here, sing here, pray here.

Maybe my argument never really was with god, but with the church... you've given me food for thought.

Maybe you should consider whether you wish your core beliefs to be faith based or reality based. Do you generally consider yourself superstitious?

[Space Cadet B^3]

Maybe you should consider whether you wish your core beliefs to be faith based or reality based. Do you generally consider yourself superstitious?
I believe in contradictory things. Illogical things. Fictional things.

Superstitious? I throw salt over my shoulder, tap on my noggin when someone says to knock wood, I believe in the extranormal, but do not try to prove it.

I have my own methodologies for how this intricate little web of balancing beliefs fit together, and I'm okay with not breathing on this house of cards. I'm okay with everyone believing something different, it's human nature. I hold sacred ideologies such as chivalry, which ends up making life more difficult for me.

I believe in the religion of art, the science of faith, and in the pureness that many human beings simply will not allow themselves to possess. I consider myself deeply spiritual.

I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior with my grandfather, who was a Baptist preacher, a man who paints my history with memories of his playing a handsaw with a violin bow, of stopping a charging cow with a pitchfork, and with being Santa Claus for an entire town. My parents were very religious, I was always rebellious, but as my dad was a musical director, I went from church to church the way army brats changed schools.

Did I just testify? Kind of? Sort of? :)

[Pigs in Space]

Can I get a Hallelujah?

[FeatsofClay]

Can I get a Hallelujah?

Hell, yeah!

Wait, did I misspell that? Too much Dre I guess.

[Eliezer]

Maybe you should consider whether you wish your core beliefs to be faith based or reality based. Do you generally consider yourself superstitious?


Apart from the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy (unless you are a strict materialist) how do you define reality?

When your reality is limited to strict materialism you miss out on much of the human experience. You lose: art, love, passion, music, et cetera.

Sure, you can say that art and music are material, but what distinguishes a random cacophony of sounds from music that seems to draw feelings from deep out of your being? How do you distinguish a piece of art that reduces us to tears from a lump of unformed clay?

Passion and love may be just hormones and brain synapses firing, that is true. But at this point in time science has not reduced everything that is part of the human experience to the strictly material. It may someday, but until that day to refuse to acknowledge the existence of things that are not "reality" just is sad. :(

[FeatsofClay]

How do you distinguish a piece of art that reduces us to tears from a lump of unformed clay?


Well, first you wedge the clay. I use a Korean Spiral technique that reduces wrist strain.

Then, with the right plasticity...Oh, on rereading I get it, never mind. ;)

[Singularity]

Apart from the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy (unless you are a strict materialist) how do you define reality?

When your reality is limited to strict materialism you miss out on much of the human experience. You lose: art, love, passion, music, et cetera.

Sure, you can say that art and music are material, but what distinguishes a random cacophony of sounds from music that seems to draw feelings from deep out of your being? How do you distinguish a piece of art that reduces us to tears from a lump of unformed clay?

Passion and love may be just hormones and brain synapses firing, that is true. But at this point in time science has not reduced everything that is part of the human experience to the strictly material. It may someday, but until that day to refuse to acknowledge the existence of things that are not "reality" just is sad. :(

I thought I had made it clear by now that I do not believe in the christian god or any other, nor is anything you say going to convince me otherwise. Sorry. I'm choosing not to play the little game wherein you attempt to convince me that my lack of belief somehow makes me subhuman or deserving of your pity. I'm perfectly happy in my lack of belief, as are 90% of the scientifically inclined individuals (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html).

Furthermore, you are just as much of an atheist as I am. The difference is that I believe in one less god (of thousands that exist in Human myth) than you.

[FeatsofClay]

I thought I had made it clear by now that I do not believe in the christian god or any other, nor is anything you say going to convince me otherwise. Sorry. I'm choosing not to play the little game wherein you attempt to convince me that my lack of belief somehow makes me subhuman or deserving of your pity. I'm perfectly happy in my lack of belief, as are 90% of the scientifically inclined individuals (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html).

Furthermore, you are just as much of an atheist as I am. The difference is that I believe in one less god (of thousands that exist in Human myth) than you.

Did you read that article before you posted it?

And saying "nor is anything you say going to convince me otherwise." is the equivalent of admitting you will not think and the pinnacle of unscientific thought.

[Singularity]

And saying "nor is anything you say going to convince me otherwise." is the equivalent of admitting you will not think and the pinnacle of unscientific thought.

No. What it means is that I have already examined the evidence (or complete lack thereof) and made the decision that there is no case for the existence of god. A bunch of internet people are not going to convince me that I do believe what I do not believe based on emotional experience.

And as I said before, nevermind. Nobody is going to win this argument so what's the point in having it?

[FeatsofClay]

No. What it means is that I have already examined the evidence (or complete lack thereof) and made the decision that there is no case for the existence of god. A bunch of internet people are not going to convince me that I do believe what I do not believe based on emotional experience.

And as I said before, nevermind. Nobody is going to win this argument so what's the point in having it?

There is no argument. There is an approach to debate and your panty-bunch insulting shit.

As a fellow atheist I am filling you in that that closed mind might rust shut.

It very possible if you would stop pissing at people for a moment that NOONe in this thread has tried to convince you of god's existence. Not once.

[Space Cadet B^3]

No. What it means is that I have already examined the evidence (or complete lack thereof) and made the decision that there is no case for the existence of god. A bunch of internet people are not going to convince me that I do believe what I do not believe based on emotional experience.

And as I said before, nevermind. Nobody is going to win this argument so what's the point in having it?
Well, I may have come closer to self-actualization as a result. YMMV.

[Singularity]

There is no argument. There is an approach to debate and your panty-bunch insulting shit.

As a fellow atheist I am filling you in that that closed mind might rust shut.

It could just be that I've had this argument too many times with people who are convinced that (1) I'm wrong, (2) I'm somehow retarded for my lack of belief, and (3) They can correct my misguided ways or think they can convince me that they are in some way less delusional by trying to justify their beliefs to me. The more committed someone is to their religion, the more foolish they appear to me. That's my bias, which is why continuing this discussion serves no purpose.

[FeatsofClay]

It could just be that I've had this argument too many times with people who are convinced that (1) I'm wrong, (2) I'm somehow retarded for my lack of belief, and (3) They can correct my misguided ways or think they can convince me that they are in some way less delusional by trying to justify their beliefs to me. The more committed someone is to their religion, the more foolish they appear to me. That's my bias, which is why continuing this discussion serves no purpose.

This hasn't been an argument or a discussion. This is you making staements about other people belief systems, telling them what they believe and being more than a bit of an ass.

[Singularity]

This hasn't been an argument or a discussion. This is you making staements about other people belief systems, telling them what they believe and being more than a bit of an ass.

I seem to be the one who started by saying that this conversation is pointless. It is pointless. It continues to be pointless, but I believe you are wrong about who it is that is making an ass of himself.

[FeatsofClay]

I seem to be the one who started by saying that this conversation is pointless. It is pointless. It continues to be pointless, but I believe you are wrong about who it is that is making an ass of himself.


Reread the thread,

Well, you know, trials of this nature don't work on Christianity because one of the core religious "truths" is that God refuses to provide any sort of proof of his own existence; he requires unquestioning faith in Him from his followers. Its the perfect scam.

You "started" by stating what the core beliefs of another peron are and then calling it a scam. Further, you used this post to show your ignorance of the entire religion.

You wanted to smack at eople and then back out of the conversation. That is, to my definition, being an ass.

And the minute you find conversationa nd exploration pointless you are shredding any hope learning. Shooting science in the foot again.

[Singularity]

Reread the thread,



You "started" by stating what the core beliefs of another peron are and then calling it a scam. Further, you used this post to show your ignorance of the entire religion.

You wanted to smack at eople and then back out of the conversation. That is, to my definition, being an ass.

And the minute you find conversationa nd exploration pointless you are shredding any hope learning. Shooting science in the foot again.

:rolleyes:

Believe what you want. I expressed my opinion. My opinion is that the religion is a farce, a scam, a waste of time, and one of the most divisive forces on Earth. I am not interested in debating my opinion. You are helping to prove my opinion correct by continuing to attack me after I already said not to bother. You = Ass.

[Pigs in Space]

Furthermore, you are just as much of an atheist as I am. The difference is that I believe in one less god (of thousands that exist in Human myth) than you.

Surely he would be one less god worth of an Atheist than you?

Edit: or maybe he's one god more of a christian?

But you guys are totally equal on the hindu scale.

[FeatsofClay]

I believe you are wrong about who it is that is making an ass of himself.



Its the perfect scam.

*Sigh*…..There's always one in ever group.

Hey, at least their bogus religion involves some small amount of fun.

No seriously, nevermind.

Sorry. I'm choosing not to play the little game .

Any help?

[Singularity]

Any help?

Yes. You showed my opinion. You showed that I am not interested in debating it. And finally, you showed that you are an ass. Congratulations, you win the asstard contest.

Now, if you wish to continue insulting me, you will be doing it without my participation. Enjoy your conversation.

[The Winslow]

Wait, people arguing back and forth about their opinion on the Internet is not debating?

[Dacke]

Everyone* knows that you can use Faith (Atheism) to defend against hostile miracles (just like you can use any other Faith skill to do so), as well as to disrupt miracles performed in your presence.

*) Everyone who plays TORG, that is.

[Radu the Wanderer]

As tempting as it is to lump Atheism in with religious beliefs, I must say that Atheism is NOT faith. Faith is irrational belief without proof. Atheists, by and large, have looked for proof and having found none have formed their opinions based on that. An opinion is not a belief. The former is sometimes backed by evidence, while the latter is formed without any reference to evidence at all.

[Atropine Mama]

I consider my atheism a faith.

Singularity, you're being an ass, most certainly.

[Trainz]

AAAH AAAH AAAAAAAH AAAAH!!!!! *snort* AAAH AAAH AAAAAAAH!!!!!

See christians? You don't have the exclusivity when it comes to have pathetic morons in your group that makes you all look bad.

Of course I share Singularity's beleifs, except for the part where if you beleive in a god, you're stupid. I think you're wrong, but stupid??? As a rule I don't hang out with stupid people, and half my friends have some beleif system, so I would be quite lonely if I thought they were stupid...

... I beleive they haven't discovered/accepted the thruth yet, and I reverse-pray for them (or whatever we agnostics do when we do such a thing).

[Pigs in Space]

... I beleive they haven't discovered/accepted the thruth yet, and I reverse-pray for them (or whatever we agnostics do when we do such a thing).

I thought being an asshole was reverse-praying for atheists.


Wow.

[Trainz]

I thought being an asshole was reverse-praying for atheists.

Wow.

Nah, we don't really hate religious folks, not your run-o-the-mill type anyways. We just like to tease them because it's such a sensitive subject that religious folks bite every time.

Wait... maybe we ARE assholes.


YMMV

[Lady Fury]

Shame on all of you for feeding the troll. And who the hell untethered him from his stake? (FoC I'm looking at you.:what:) It's going to take me weeks to calm him down now. :mad:

[Space Cadet B^3]

Shame on all of you for feeding the troll. And who the hell untethered him from his stake? (FoC I'm looking at you.:what:) It's going to take me weeks to calm him down now. :mad:
You're supposed to sit an admire the artistry of the scene, not stand up in the third act and heckle! :tongue:

[Lady Fury]

You're supposed to sit an admire the artistry of the scene, not stand up in the third act and heckle! :tongue:

I didn't get home until the third act.:(

[Maddman]

:rolleyes:

Believe what you want. I expressed my opinion. My opinion is that the religion is a farce, a scam, a waste of time, and one of the most divisive forces on Earth. I am not interested in debating my opinion. You are helping to prove my opinion correct by continuing to attack me after I already said not to bother. You = Ass.

Yet you are most interested in continuing to post in the thread. Fascinating.

What people are trying to get at, if you could manage to stop throwing insults long enough to read any post but your own, is that if you say you deduced that there is no god based on the evidence available and reached a rational conclusion, you are entirely missing the point. NO ONE DOES THIS. Do you honestly think people are religious because they worked late into the night until they discovered the Jesus Forumla? No, religious belief is emotive, not rational. If you see no need for that, cool. But that's where they are coming from.

I'm not trying to convince you to be religious. I'm not religious myself. Just explaining that there might be an answer other than you being smarter than everyone else.

Oh, and if I wanted to read someone quote Dawkins like he's their high pope of arrogant atheism, I'd read an Atticus post.

[Eliezer]

I thought I had made it clear by now that I do not believe in the christian god or any other, nor is anything you say going to convince me otherwise. Sorry. I'm choosing not to play the little game wherein you attempt to convince me that my lack of belief somehow makes me subhuman or deserving of your pity. I'm perfectly happy in my lack of belief, as are 90% of the scientifically inclined individuals (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html).

Furthermore, you are just as much of an atheist as I am. The difference is that I believe in one less god (of thousands that exist in Human myth) than you.

Not trying to convince you to believe in god. I acknowledged that your position and opinions on god and Christian myths/beliefs is fine one.

What I'm trying to say is to be careful, because logic is a double edged sword. If you refute religion on the basis of one logical argument and that same logical argument can be used to "prove" that music and art don't exist you've put yourself in a rather interesting position.

[Name Lips]

if you say you deduced that there is no god based on the evidence available and reached a rational conclusion, you are entirely missing the point. NO ONE DOES THIS. Do you honestly think people are religious because they worked late into the night until they discovered the Jesus Forumla? No, religious belief is emotive, not rational. If you see no need for that, cool. But that's where they are coming from.

Nicely said. :)

[Pigs in Space]

I have this awesome image of Dr Frankenstien working away in his lab trying to figure out the Jesus Formula.


Actually, it sounds more like a lame eddie murphy movie where he got hold of a fatsuit and then the script "just wrote itself".

[Radu the Wanderer]

Actually, it sounds more like every lame eddie murphy movie where he got hold of a fatsuit/girl suit/other cliche to allow him to play the entire cast alone and then the script "just wrote itself".

Fixed it for you.

[Pigs in Space]

You just ruined Norbit!

[Space Cadet B^3]

You just ruined Norbit!
How does one ruin a ruin?

[Snatch]

How does one ruin a ruin?

Read spoilers for the movie and then go watch it?

[Edena_of_Neith]

I am very aware of how faith can cause people to heal, or to recover from illness.
And I am very aware of how a mindset can enable someone to heal, whereas another mindset can cause them to die. I've seen it happen, both ways, personally.

I meant to be humorous about the 'trial of the psychics.'
But if a psychic just started healing people (ala: 'hey, look at that leg regrow! And no hidden camera tricks!') then yeah, that would be nice. That would be nice. That would ... be nice ...

[pandiculator]

Oops. I blew the thread up. Sorry.

[Cat of Ulthar]

Maybe my argument never really was with god, but with the church... you've given me food for thought.
B^3, what you said touched me as I see that is so often the case. I see it with my mother who is deeply religious but loathes the church, I see it in my father who is a christian who has nothing to do with the church, I see it in my deeply religious self who could not find God in the church.

See if you can see God somewhere else, in nature, in meditation, in introspection, God knows...

Singularity, you're an ass.