My heart bleeds

[Darkfire]

LONDON (Reuters) - Fortune-tellers, mediums and spiritual healers marched on Downing Street on Friday to protest against new laws they fear will lead to them being "persecuted and prosecuted".

Organisers say that replacing the Fraudulent Mediums Act of 1951 with new consumer protection rules will remove key legal protection for "genuine" mediums.

They think sceptics might bring malicious prosecutions to force spiritualists to prove in court that they can heal people, see into the future or talk to the dead.

Psychics also fear they will have to give disclaimers describing their services as entertainment or as scientific experiments with unpredictable results.

"If I'm giving a healing to someone, I don't want to have to stand there and say I don't believe in what I'm doing," said Carole McEntee-Taylor, a healer who co-founded the Spiritual Workers Association.

The group delivered a petition with 5,000 names to the prime minister's office, although Gordon Brown is away in the United States.

With the changes expected to come into force next month, spiritualists have faced a barrage of headlines gleefully suggesting that they should have seen it coming.

But many don't see the funny side. They say the new rules will shift the responsibility of proving they are not frauds from prosecutors and onto them.

"By repealing the Act, the onus will go round the other way and we will have to prove we are genuine," McEntee-Taylor told Reuters. "No other religion has to do that."

The government said the new regulations form part of a European Union directive that is meant to harmonise unfair trading laws across the EU. It will introduce a ban on traders "treating consumers unfairly".

The British Humanist Association, a charity which campaigns against religion and supernatural beliefs, said stricter regulations were overdue because the current laws don't work.

"It is misleading for spiritualists to claim that, as religious' practitioners they should not be regulated under consumer laws," said Chief Executive Hanne Stinson.

"The psychic industry is huge and lucrative and it exploits some very vulnerable, and some very gullible, people with claims for which there is no scientific evidence."

I've never had a particually good impression of faith healers, mediums and fortune-tellers, so I can't say that it slightly enjoyable that they might actually have to prove the benefits of their (occasionally every expensive) services. :lol:

[Pigs in Space]

I don't really see this as any different to religous folks donating money in church.

If you want to believe in this stuff, and you are prepared to give your money for the "service" then why not?

[Dacke]

With the changes expected to come into force next month, spiritualists have faced a barrage of headlines gleefully suggesting that they should have seen it coming.
:killinme:

[Trainz]

I don't really see this as any different to religous folks donating money in church.

If you want to believe in this stuff, and you are prepared to give your money for the "service" then why not?

Ah..... yup.

:lol:

[Darkfire]

I don't really see this as any different to religous folks donating money in church.

If you want to believe in this stuff, and you are prepared to give your money for the "service" then why not?

Most people I know don't give Zakat (donations) because they expect to get healed or have a better future. They do so because it benefits other people.

Guess if you want to waste your money on fortune tellers/mediums its your problem, but its the faith healers and the like who set themselves up in the same world as science by calling it medicine that I have a problem with. You want to get the positive cred of calling yourself medicine then prepare to be tested like all medical research :D

[Space Cadet B^3]

I am a complete nonbeliever in religious higher power, but I completely believe in the power of prayer as a healing tool, so they're not all necessarily charlatans.

[Darkfire]

I am a complete nonbeliever in religious higher power, but I completely believe in the power of prayer as a healing tool, so they're not all necessarily charlatans.

Let them prove it then, it'll be all more the powerful if they can show proof that it works.

[Space Cadet B^3]

I know a family with a grandmother who is alive after being given 6 months to live. I think it's been 5 years now?

Belief has power, whether internal or externally fueled. Argue the whys later, I've seen results.

[Darkfire]

I know a family with a grandmother who is alive after being given 6 months to live. I think it's been 5 years now?

Belief has power, whether internal or externally fueled. Argue the whys later, I've seen results.

Belief has power, but when you turn it around and say 'sorry, but it would've worked if you had more belief and no, you don't get your money back' then you have problems.

[Space Cadet B^3]

That in my book is a charlatan, and I have no problem giving them comeuppance. I was just saying we should not persecute unilaterally.

[Darkfire]

So what would you say would be a fair way of determing who's a fraud and who isn't?

[Trainz]

Sorry, but I got to :lol: again.

Sorry mods... I know I'm being an ass, sometimes I can't help myself.

[Eliezer]

So what would you say would be a fair way of determing who's a fraud and who isn't?

You don't have to determine who is a fraud. It's a simple issue of quid pro quo. If you offer a quid pro quo exchange then you have to be able to demonstrate that it was a fair exchange to prevent it form being fraud.

If someone makes a free will donation and the service (healing, medium, fortune-telling, etc) would have been provided irrespective of the donation then it's all good.

Now that may throw some churches in a tizzy that charge for their priests to perform certain services, but all they really need to do is claim it is a travel reimbursement or facilities rental or the like.

[Name Lips]

Most new-age/alternative/psychic people I've seen always have the "for entertainment purporses only" and "these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA" disclaimers on all their stuff. Those ones I think the law can leave alone - their stuff either works or it doesn't for any random person, but they're taking the risk of it being useless when they pay the money. People are willing to shell out the money to "try it and see if it works for them." They don't necessarily expect it to, but they're happy if it does.

Other such people, though, claim what they're doing is a "science" and "proven." If they want to make those claims, they need to prove them.

[Eliezer]

Most new-age/alternative/psychic people I've seen always have the "for entertainment purporses only" and "these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA" disclaimers on all their stuff. Those ones I think the law can leave alone - their stuff either works or it doesn't for any random person, but they're taking the risk of it being useless when they pay the money. People are willing to shell out the money to "try it and see if it works for them." They don't necessarily expect it to, but they're happy if it does.

Other such people, though, claim what they're doing is a "science" and "proven." If they want to make those claims, they need to prove them.

Exactly!

[Darkfire]

Most new-age/alternative/psychic people I've seen always have the "for entertainment purporses only" and "these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA" disclaimers on all their stuff. Those ones I think the law can leave alone - their stuff either works or it doesn't for any random person, but they're taking the risk of it being useless when they pay the money. People are willing to shell out the money to "try it and see if it works for them." They don't necessarily expect it to, but they're happy if it does.

Other such people, though, claim what they're doing is a "science" and "proven." If they want to make those claims, they need to prove them.

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter.

[Edena_of_Neith]

(dark humor)

From your post: They think sceptics might bring malicious prosecutions to force spiritualists to prove in court that they can heal people, see into the future or talk to the dead.

Ok ...

(Courtroom scene)

Spiritualist: I can talk to the dead.
Prosecutor: Prove it.
Spiritualist: According to your mother, you're joining her tomorrow in Heaven.
Judge: Contempt of court!

(next day)

Spiritualist: I can talk to the dead.
New Prosecutor (the old one is dead) : Prove it.
Spiritualist: According to your father, you're joining him in Heaven in 2 days.
Judge: Contempt of court!

(2 days later)

Spiritualist: I can talk to the dead.
3rd Prosecutor (the first two are dead) : Prove it.
Spiritualist: According to both his parents, the judge will ...
Judge: (interrupting) CASE DISMISSED!

[Edena_of_Neith]

(dark humor)

From your post: They think sceptics might bring malicious prosecutions to force spiritualists to prove in court that they can heal people, see into the future or talk to the dead.

Ok ...

(courtroom scene)

Spiritualist: I can heal the injured.
Prosecutor: Bring in the first case!
(they bring in a man with both of his legs broken)
Spiritualist: (heals the man)
(healed man walks out of courtroom)
Prosecutor: It's a fake. Let's see him bring another case.
Spiritualist: (heals the next man, who had terminal cancer)
Prosecutor: It's still a fake. Let's see him bring another case.
Spiritualist: (heals the next man, who was in a coma for the last 2 years)
Prosecutor: It's STILL a fake. Let's see him bring in another case. HAH. He doesn't have a 4th case ready to present!
The Defense: That is not a problem. We now have all 55,874 cases from hospitals nationwide coming to this courtroom as I speak, along with the military and most of the government, the entirety of the press and most of the religious leaders in the country. Oh, and our foreign embassies are now having to close down due to the incoming calls and crowds of people storming the fences.