PDA

View Full Version : So much for the 4th Amendment...


Harry
04-16-2008, 11:47 PM
Bush's wrecking crew has slaughtered the rest of the Constitution, why not continue to erode the 4th Amendment, too. And to think, I finally settled in tonight to watch the Adams mini-series. This is a fine howdy-do...

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

LINK (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24173094/)

Feds plan to expand DNA database

The U.S. government will soon begin collecting DNA samples from all citizens arrested in connection with any federal crime and from many immigrants detained by federal authorities, adding genetic identifiers from more than 1 million individuals a year to the swiftly growing federal law enforcement DNA database.

The policy will substantially expand the current practice of routinely collecting DNA samples from only those convicted of federal crimes, and it will build on a growing policy among states to collect DNA from many people who are arrested. Thirteen states do so now and turn their data over to the federal government.

The initiative, to be published as a proposed rule in the Federal Register in coming days, reflects a congressional directive that DNA from arrestees be collected to help catch a range of domestic criminals. But it also requires, for the first time, the collection of DNA samples from people other than U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents who are detained by U.S. authorities.

Although fingerprints have long been collected for virtually every arrestee, privacy advocates say the new policy expands the DNA database, run by the FBI, beyond its initial aim of storing information on the perpetrators of violent crimes.

They also worry that people could be detained erroneously and swept into the database without cause, and that DNA samples from those who are never convicted of a crime, because of acquittal or a withdrawal of charges, might nonetheless be permanently retained by the FBI.

"Innocent people don't belong in a so-called criminal database," said Tania Simoncelli, science adviser for the American Civil Liberties Union. "We're crossing a line."

She said that if the samples are kept, they could one day be analyzed for sensitive information such as diseases and ancestry.

Justice Department spokesman Erik Ablin said the collection of DNA samples "will provide an additional form of biometric identification from persons who would normally be fingerprinted." FBI rules preclude using DNA samples to determine a person's genetic traits, diseases or disorders.

The database expansion was authorized by Congress as an amendment to the Violence Against Women Act and was billed primarily as a way to track down serial rapists, murderers and other offenders. "We know for a fact that the proposed regulations will save the lives of many innocent people and will prevent devastating crimes," said Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), a sponsor of the legislation. "These regulations are long overdue -- we should have done this 10 years ago."

The proposed rule applies to all federal agencies with the authority to arrest or detain, including the FBI, the Border Patrol and the Internal Revenue Service. Although details of the policy have not been announced, officials said they expect the bulk of the new DNA samples to be collected through cheek swabs.

U.S. officials said that when the measure is fully implemented, roughly 1.2 million people a year could be added to the national database. About 140,000 of those would be people arrested for federal crimes. Many of the rest would be foreigners detained for being in the United States illegally.

Immigration rights advocates note that most illegal immigrants are detained for administrative violations, not federal crimes. By adding their DNA to the database, "it casts them all as criminals," said Paromita Shah, associate director of the National Immigration Project of the National Lawyers Guild.

The rule's scope is still being negotiated, officials said, but it will not cover illegal immigrants picked up at sea; people being processed for legal admission to the United States, such as asylum seekers; and people undergoing secondary screening at ports of entry. It was unclear yesterday whether Mexican border-crossers who are briefly detained and then released in Mexico will be covered. The Border Patrol made 877,000 apprehensions in 2007, most of them of Mexicans.

The move comes as 13 states -- including Virginia and, recently, Maryland -- have passed laws to include many arrestees in their DNA databanks. California, which has more than 1 million profiles, will begin collecting DNA from all felony arrestees next year. The information will be uploaded to the national database, which today houses more than 5.9 million samples, making it the largest forensic DNA databank in the world.

The National DNA Index System (NDIS) was created by the DNA Identification Act of 1994 to store profiles of people convicted of serious violent crimes, such as rape and murder. A 2004 amendment expanded the collection to people convicted of any felony offense, and it allowed states to upload DNA profiles from people convicted of misdemeanors and from arrestees charged with a crime. In 2006, the law was changed again, enabling states to upload data from arrestees who had not been charged.

Over the years, the NDIS has yielded 66,750 hits in 67,285 investigations, FBI officials said. "I think by any measure, the program has been a success," said Thomas Callaghan, head of the database, adding that the best way to increase its effectiveness is to add DNA samples from arrestees.

Jayann Sepich of Carlsbad, N.M., said she applauds the federal rule change. In August 2003, after Sepich's 22-year-old daughter, Katie, was raped and killed, investigators found her attacker's skin and blood under her fingernails. But no samples in the state's database matched the evidence.

In 2006, moved by Katie Sepich's death, the New Mexico legislature passed "Katie's Law," requiring the collection of arrestees' DNA. That December, authorities arrested the man who had killed her -- a DNA sample had been taken from him when he was arrested on a charge of aggravated burglary. Jayann Sepich is now a prominent advocate of similar laws in other states.

The new federal rule will conform to current law, which requires the removal of DNA profiles from the database when a conviction is reversed or when an arrest does not result in conviction. An individual must petition for expungement, Ablin said. Civil liberties advocates say removal should be automatic.

In Virginia, which in 2003 adopted one of the first arrestee laws, about 51 percent of arrestee profiles are eventually removed from the state database because charges are dropped or a case is dismissed, said Pete Marone, director of the Department of Forensic Science. He said it is the forensic lab's duty to remove the profiles, something that can take a year or two. "As long as the case is in process, they're still there," he said.

Jim Harper, director of information policy studies at the libertarian Cato Institute, warned of mission creep. "The natural path is to move from the dangerous criminals down the chain, to anybody who has contact with law enforcement, and after that you'll have DNA taken when people are born or first enter the country legally," he said.

The proposed rule will be subject to a 30-day public comment period, Ablin said.

In fewer words, anytime you are taken into Federal custody now, they will take a sample of your DNA and enter you into the Federal database. Not upon proof of guilt, by a jury or by the ICE or the military or any other reasonable method. No. When you are taken into Federal custody, period. I can think of numerous examples of ways this can, may and probably will be construed, but even if that custody is actual arrest for a notable crime, and not wearing a tee-shirt the President disapproves of, you are still robbed of your presumption of innocence and protection against unreasonable searches.

The article says that victim's rights groups are in favor of this. Nice. Well, I guess we are all victims now, so more power for us. This makes a fine hash of the idea of innocent until proven guilty, personal rights, testifying against oneself and a plethora of other issues.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/greylock/Macros/Fascism-1.jpg

Pigs in Space
04-16-2008, 11:53 PM
It really bothers me every time the US govt takes a step away from the pure ideals of Democracy and Freedom.

The US was a shining light of hope for humanity, and the ideal that other democracies aimed for... 50 years ago. Now I think, the rest of the world doesn't believe that anymore. It's really sad.

Singularity
04-17-2008, 12:10 AM
They already take fingerprints when they take you into police custody, so how is this any different? DNA is simply a more accurate way of identifying people, and if they happen to find a suspected felon's DNA at a crime scene at some point, it just helps them find a criminal before they can commit another crime.

Not seeing this as a big deal, nor am I seeing this as a matter of unconstitutional search and seizure. And please don't tell me that once they have your DNA, they can plant it somewhere so they can illegally incriminate you. They can already do that with fingerprints, and its easier to fake. I hate Bush, but frankly I'm not wearing my tinfoil hat.

Ergeheilalt
04-17-2008, 12:39 AM
It really bothers me every time the US govt takes a step away from the pure ideals of Democracy and Freedom.

The US was a shining light of hope for humanity, and the ideal that other democracies aimed for... 50 years ago. Now I think, the rest of the world doesn't believe that anymore. It's really sad.

We were never, ever a shining beacon of pure democracy or pure freedom.

Hell, black people couldn't vote openly until the late 60s.

Unions were outright illegal up until the 30's (despite the first amendment).

If you look at the constitution, it's fairly disheartening. Hell, one of the primary reasons it was put into place was to protect the rights and property of the land owning elite and to curtain liberal states like Pennsylvania and Rhode Island.

America has required constant struggle to develop the semblance of liberty we have today. Even now, it's not perfect and we lack people who care enough to do anything about it. America is the embodiment of the struggle for greater freedom. When people cease struggling and become blithely ignorant or apathetic - we'll lose that freedom despite the sacrifices of previous generations.

Harry
04-17-2008, 01:14 AM
True. It's a constant struggle. Which makes the accomplishments of black men and women who voted before the 1960's, and the men and women who were in unions before the 1930's, more admirable.

Hell, black people couldn't vote openly until the late 60s... Unions were outright illegal up until the 30's (despite the first amendment).

I'm curious how you come about these statements. Neither is true.

Varaj
04-17-2008, 05:45 AM
I'm going to have to back OP. If you don't have a problem with finger printing I'm not sure how you could have a problem with DNA finger printing.

Eliezer
04-17-2008, 07:39 AM
It's been my argument for years that genetic identifiers and fingerprints are essentially equivalent and should be treated in exactly the same way. Fingerprinting and genetic identifiers should be collected and disseminated and destroyed on exactly the same policy basis.

No distinction ought to be made.

And for those of you wearing tinfoil hats, fingerprint databases already exists and are collected by virtually every law enforcement agency in the US everytime you are taken into custody. These databases are regularly shared among law enforcement agencies (with the help of Federal monies) and are extremely powerful tools for suspect identification. Current rules allow a suspect not convicted to request removal of the fingerprints. Same should be true of genetic identifiers.

The Winslow
04-17-2008, 08:51 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/greylock/Macros/Fascism-1.jpg

You know, fascism is always wrapped in the flag. Any form of nationalism is.

Schizm
04-17-2008, 10:21 AM
Current rules allow a suspect not convicted to request removal of the fingerprints. Same should be true of genetic identifiers.

I pretty much agree. And I'm one of those damn liberals.:rolleyes:

Scarbonac
04-17-2008, 11:07 AM
No sir, I don't like it.

doc
04-17-2008, 06:46 PM
I'm going to have to back OP. If you don't have a problem with finger printing I'm not sure how you could have a problem with DNA finger printing. Varaj is right the OP is right, if it'll catch a fugitive take the DNA samples

Name Lips
04-17-2008, 06:49 PM
It's been my argument for years that genetic identifiers and fingerprints are essentially equivalent and should be treated in exactly the same way. Fingerprinting and genetic identifiers should be collected and disseminated and destroyed on exactly the same policy basis.

No distinction ought to be made.

And for those of you wearing tinfoil hats, fingerprint databases already exists and are collected by virtually every law enforcement agency in the US everytime you are taken into custody. These databases are regularly shared among law enforcement agencies (with the help of Federal monies) and are extremely powerful tools for suspect identification. Current rules allow a suspect not convicted to request removal of the fingerprints. Same should be true of genetic identifiers.

This.

So many convicted murderers and rapists have been freed in recent years because of DNA evidence. It's an order of magnitude more effective and useful than fingerprints.

It's just that for some reason people think of their DNA as being more personal and private than fingerprints, I guess.

Enk
04-17-2008, 07:53 PM
I'm going to have to back OP. If you don't have a problem with finger printing I'm not sure how you could have a problem with DNA finger printing.

I have a problem with neither on a local level. I do have a problem with both on a centralized national level.

Interstate agency cooperation can be achieved without handing the keys to the kingdom to the federal gov't.

Pigs in Space
04-17-2008, 08:05 PM
We were never, ever a shining beacon of pure democracy or pure freedom.

Oh I don't know about that... it seems to me that in the last 30 years the US has lost a lot of esteem in the eyes of the international community. Before that, the US was doing great things - leading in tech (still are), creating and backing the UN, championing liberty... and now, not so much.

Singularity
04-17-2008, 10:25 PM
Oh I don't know about that... it seems to me that in the last 30 years the US has lost a lot of esteem in the eyes of the international community. Before that, the US was doing great things - leading in tech (still are), creating and backing the UN, championing liberty... and now, not so much.

The last 30? I'd say we were doing all of those things up until the last 8. I think we can get back there once this country has leadership again that hasn't given in completely to corruption.

Varaj
04-17-2008, 10:40 PM
I have a problem with neither on a local level. I do have a problem with both on a centralized national level.

Interstate agency cooperation can be achieved without handing the keys to the kingdom to the federal gov't.

That's cool. I can get behind that as well.

Eliezer
04-21-2008, 11:08 AM
This.

So many convicted murderers and rapists have been freed in recent years because of DNA evidence. It's an order of magnitude more effective and useful than fingerprints.

It's just that for some reason people think of their DNA as being more personal and private than fingerprints, I guess.

Yes, it's all an issue of perception about what is personal and private.

Eliezer
04-21-2008, 11:09 AM
That's cool. I can get behind that as well.

I can't get behind it for logistical reasons and practical limitations. If agencies can share information instantaneously (or nearly so) between states and the Federal agencies can interact with that data as well then from a logistical standpoint you haven't changed anything except made the technological landscape more complex and cumbersome.

Maddman
04-23-2008, 10:49 AM
They should be treated the same way - if you can request fingerprints be removed, you should be able to do the same for DNA. Further, law enforcement shouldn't be allowed to use these samples for anything other than identification purposes. There's all kinds of information in someone's DNA, and further analysis should require a warrant.

Eliezer
04-23-2008, 12:26 PM
They should be treated the same way - if you can request fingerprints be removed, you should be able to do the same for DNA. Further, law enforcement shouldn't be allowed to use these samples for anything other than identification purposes. There's all kinds of information in someone's DNA, and further analysis should require a warrant.

You're right about the whole DNA sequence having too much information and potentially being abused for non-identification purposes.

Fortunately, they way they use DNA identifiers is to look for specific markers and not the whole sequence. The whole sequence is cost prohibitive to store from an information standpoint and extremely expensive to sequence out. So they gather a few markers and store the values of those.


So when we do DNA comparisons, we can't read all three billion letters. What is done instead is that a very small handful of sites of variation are examined. Sites of variation here on this chromosome, perhaps, or one here, or one here, and one picks enough sites of variation to be able to have enough markers of difference.

At least in the forensic applications commonly done today, people don't actually read out the sequence. For economic reasons, for being able to do this more quickly and more cheaply, they look instead at regions that have spelling differences that are due to repetitions of some sequence. There are repeat sequences all over the genome and, in any particular region, let's pretend this is chromosome #1, you may have three copies. I might have four copies, someone else five copies, someone else one copy - typically, an unimportant repeat that has no biological function, but we all might differ.


From here (http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/BA/Use_of_DNA_Identification.php)

Enk
04-23-2008, 01:52 PM
I can't get behind it for logistical reasons and practical limitations. If agencies can share information instantaneously (or nearly so) between states and the Federal agencies can interact with that data as well then from a logistical standpoint you haven't changed anything except made the technological landscape more complex and cumbersome.

That's a feature, not a bug :).

There should be impediments to federal access tot his information, even if its just the feds saying "mother-may-I" to the state authorities. I don't have a problem with the feds getting this info as long as they go through channels, I just don't want it to be unfettered.

Otherwise its just giving them the keys to the kingdom.