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Singularity
04-07-2008, 12:17 PM
Erotic Jesus sparks art debate
07/04/2008 14:44 - (SA)

Vienna - They knew it would be risky to exhibit a homoerotic version of Christ's Last Supper, but curators at the museum of Vienna's Roman Catholic Cathedral weren't ready for a barrage of angry messages and calls to be shut down.

The source of the dispute, which Austrian media has dubbed Vienna's version of the Muhammad caricature row, is a retrospective honouring Austria's cherished artist Alfred Hrdlicka - who turned 80 earlier this year.

The Cathedral Museum's director and Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, the archbishop of Vienna, have both come under fire from some museum visitors and Catholic websites.

The Church hastily removed the main picture, "a homosexual orgy" of the Apostles as Hrdlicka describes it.

The museum's director defends both Hrdlicka's work and his decision to host the artist's controversial versions of biblical imagery in a museum tied to the Catholic Church.

"We think Hrdlicka is entitled to represent people in this carnal, drastic way," Bernhard Boehler said.

Provoke a debate

He said the museum never intended to offend people, but that art should be allowed to provoke a debate.

"I don't see any blasphemy here," he said, gesturing at a Crucifixion picture showing a soldier simultaneously beating Jesus and holding his genitals. "People can imagine what they want to." :lol:

Boehler says that picture drew particular criticism from some visitors, along with a sculpture of Jesus on the cross without a face or loincloth that some Christians found offensive.

But the most disputed work was Leonardo's Last Supper, restored by Pier Paolo Pasolini which showed cavorting Apostles sprawling over the dining table and masturbating each other.

Hrdlicka says he represented the men in this way because there are no women in the Da Vinci painting which inspired it.

The exhibition has attracted fierce criticism on religion blogs in Austria, Germany and even in the US, with bloggers denouncing it with terms such as "blasphemy" and "desecration."

Critics missed the point

The museum took down the Last Supper piece at Cardinal Schoenborn's request just over a week after the Religion, Flesh and Power exhibition opened, leaving a blank black wall at the entrance to the display.

"It is also an act of respect towards those believers who feel this portrayal offended and provoked them in their deepest religious sensitivity," the Cardinal's spokesperson said in a statement.

The diocese says the museum's decision to show Hrdlicka's work does not mean it identifies with everything it portrays. Hrdlicka agrees but points out that the Last Supper piece was not intended as a swipe at the Catholic Church.

Boehler says the angry e-mails he has received remind him of how some reacted to Mel Gibson's 2004 film The Passion of The Christ. In his opinion, critics of the film's violence and physicality also missed the point.

I love this article all the more because it is not satire.

Harry
04-07-2008, 12:39 PM
Has the Catholic Church issued a death sentence for the author?

Varaj
04-07-2008, 12:47 PM
I'm going to be burning some flags and rioting later today. Might even beat somebody that looks vaguely like they might be off the same country of origin.
Should be good fun.

Bregh
04-07-2008, 12:51 PM
.

Darkfire
04-07-2008, 12:54 PM
Has the Catholic Church issued a death sentence for the author?

Would've been wittier if you realised that there is no parallel to the Catholic church in Islam.

Harry
04-07-2008, 12:58 PM
Would've been wittier if you realised that there is no parallel to the Catholic church in Islam.

I considered that as I posted the thought, but never once considered changing "author" to "artist". And although there is no Islamic equivalent to The Vatican, to suggest that Muslims have no similar cohesion is misleading.

FeatsofClay
04-07-2008, 01:02 PM
If not, then I fail to see the comparison between Hrdlicka's art and the cartoons that ran in the Danish 'papers. Among peoples disposed to civility, this is how objection and offense ought to be made.

It seems true civility would be not attending and letting others who wish to see the work attend. Not causing such an outcry that somehting you didn't wish to see anyway not be seen by someone else.

This is "civilized" force but force none-the-less. I do see the difference...I also see how there is no difference.

Using your standards and beliefs as a reason to stop someone else from doing anything WHERE THERE IS NO DIRECT HARM is bullying. Be it with letters, calls or bombs.

Bregh
04-07-2008, 01:09 PM
.

Darkfire
04-07-2008, 01:11 PM
And although there is no Islamic equivalent to The Vatican, to suggest that Muslims have no similar cohesion is misleading.

Okay, so tell me about this cohesion then.

FeatsofClay
04-07-2008, 01:14 PM
I appreciate that you're an artist, and from that point of view artistic expression must trump all other concerns.

But I cannot agree with your analysis in this instance.

I'd tell you why, but by your criteria I would be bullying you.

And that would be wrong.

Isn't tolerance wonderful?

I think you may be reading me completely wrong. I am sick up to here (gestures) with artistic (don't know the word. Shock jocks with brushes). I am probably one of the few artists you will meet who believes the NEA should be abolished.

This is an expression issue. Much bigger than the arts.
Underworld bosses and 13 year old girls both use force. They just use it in the currency of their particular kingdom.

There is a major difference between disagreeing and debating (which you have shunned do to mysupposed delicate sensibilities) and emailing Kay till she shuts off my account or puts a word-filter on my posts.


Please, do not assume I am an instant defender of the arts.

Varaj
04-07-2008, 01:23 PM
Okay, so tell me about this cohesion then.

I got your back Darkfire.

Has any specific Christian preacher called for a death sentence. :tongue:

Varaj
04-07-2008, 01:25 PM
On a side note the best part of the rioting is since it was a Catholic museum that put up the display I get to burn Catholic churches for being anti-Catholic. :D

Bregh
04-07-2008, 01:40 PM
.

FeatsofClay
04-07-2008, 01:46 PM
there is a difference. It is one of scale.

Saying you don't like the art (music, cartoon, selling of dildoes) and stopping are two different things. In this way the cartoon violence persuers and the museum exhibit partial removers are the same.

That's all I'm saying.

Oh, and you are a sweety sugar-lumpkins too. :)

Bregh
04-07-2008, 02:22 PM
.

Darkfire
04-07-2008, 03:07 PM
I got your back Darkfire.

Has any specific Christian preacher called for a death sentence. :tongue:

There we go, gotto be accurate with these comparisons people.

On a side note, what, besides shock value, is the point of these paintings? I mean painting the disciples circle jerking each other doesn't seem the high of social commentary.

Name Lips
04-07-2008, 03:11 PM
.

Darkfire
04-07-2008, 03:15 PM
.

See at least he/she put the nails in the right place. Wrong orientation though.

Varaj
04-07-2008, 03:18 PM
On a side note, what, besides shock value, is the point of these paintings? I mean painting the disciples circle jerking each other doesn't seem the high of social commentary.

Damned if I know what the purpose of all sorts of art is. :)

FeatsofClay
04-07-2008, 04:04 PM
Damned if I know what the purpose of all sorts of art is. :)


Seconded.

Singularity
04-07-2008, 06:34 PM
On a side note, what, besides shock value, is the point of these paintings? I mean painting the disciples circle jerking each other doesn't seem the high of social commentary.

Perhaps the commentary is that the Christian religion in general is one big circle jerk, as are most religions.

Name Lips
04-07-2008, 06:38 PM
One thing people tend to forget is that bad art is still art. ;)

FeatsofClay
04-07-2008, 06:49 PM
One thing people tend to forget is that bad art is still art. ;)

I keep preaching this to people. Bad athletes are still athletes. Bad doctors are still doctors. Bad artists are still artists.

If you dance poolry people will say you dance poorly. Make art poorly and people feel you haven't reach "ART".

Singularity
04-07-2008, 06:53 PM
I keep preaching this to people. Bad athletes are still athletes. Bad doctors are still doctors. Bad artists are still artists.

If you dance poolry people will say you dance poorly. Make art poorly and people feel you haven't reach "ART".

Uwe Boll is still a producer.

Radu
04-07-2008, 09:48 PM
Bad athletes are still athletes. Bad doctors are still doctors. Bad artists are still artists.

But bad art is still bad. Bad, art! No! No cookie for you!

Eliezer
04-08-2008, 09:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/xPhje8wepyg&hl=en

I don't agree with everything Penn & Teller say, but I do agree with this idea that we are not guaranteed the right to be free from being offended.

I guess the question is what is the appropriate response to being offended. Walking away is a valid response. Not going is a valid response. Telling others that it's offensive and to not go is a valid response.

Name Lips
04-08-2008, 10:59 AM
My college History professor said on the first day of class that if he didn't truly and deeply offend each and every one of us at least once over the course of the semester, he wasn't doing his job correctly.

Scutisorex Shrewlord
04-08-2008, 02:02 PM
Fuck Islam. I know it doesn't have much to do with the thread, but I just wanted to say that. You know what would be funny? A cartoon of a Catholic priest fondling a little Muslim boy who is sucking a pig's dick. Comedy gold!

Darkfire
04-08-2008, 02:25 PM
Ah how I've missed your erudite posting Kitten. Want to really flog the decayed horse and post that cartoon pic you're so fond of?

FeatsofClay
04-08-2008, 02:26 PM
Ah how I've missed your erudite posting Kitten. Want to really flog the decayed horse and post that cartoon pic you're so fond of?

This one?

Darkfire
04-08-2008, 02:59 PM
This one?

Heh, thanks I needed a laugh :lol:

Scutisorex Shrewlord
04-13-2008, 04:46 AM
Ah how I've missed your erudite posting Kitten. Want to really flog the decayed horse and post that cartoon pic you're so fond of?

No need to post it. Kicking Islam is like pissing on a pile of used tampons.

Darkfire
04-13-2008, 06:57 AM
No need to post it. Kicking Islam is like pissing on a pile of used tampons.

So you get a kick out of pissing on used tampons?