Representing western stupidity: The Vatican

[FeatsofClay]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL3068682420080330?rpc=92

Muslims more numerous than Catholics: Vatican

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Islam has overtaken Roman Catholicism as the biggest single religious denomination in the world, the Vatican said on Sunday.

Monsignor Vittorio Formenti, who compiled the Vatican's newly-released 2008 yearbook of statistics, said Muslims made up 19.2 percent of the world's population and Catholics 17.4 percent.

"For the first time in history we are no longer at the top: the Muslims have overtaken us," Formenti told Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano in an interview, saying the data referred to 2006.

He said that if all Christian groups were considered, including Orthodox churches, Anglicans and Protestants, then Christians made up 33 percent of the world's population -- or about 2 billion people.

The Vatican recently put the number of Catholics in the world at 1.13 billion people. It did not provide a figure for Muslims, generally estimated at around 1.3 billion.

Formenti said that while the number of Catholics as a proportion of the world's population was fairly stable, the percentage of Muslims was growing because of higher birth rates.

He said the data on Muslim populations had been compiled by individual countries and then released by the United Nations, adding the Vatican could only vouch for its own statistics.


Now, the headline makes sense. But in the text it says that "Islam has overtaken Roman Catholicism as the biggest single religious denomination".

Would you consider Catholicism equal to Islam instead of say, Christianity to Islam?

[Name Lips]

Why are they lumping Islam into a single religious category?

[Singularity]

Why are they lumping Islam into a single religious category?

To alarm those who lack higher reasoning skills. EVERYONE PANIC!

[Darkfire]

Why are they lumping Islam into a single religious category?

Because they can't bother to take the time to understand what they're writing about ;) However if you take the 3/4 split thats generally accepted for Sunni/Shia Islam you still get close on 17% So give us a few decades of breeding and we'll get there, because thats the only reason we're catching up ;)

[Utrecht]

Because they can't bother to take the time to understand what they're writing about ;) However if you take the 3/4 split thats generally accepted for Sunni/Shia Islam you still get close on 17% So give us a few decades of breeding and we'll get there, because thats the only reason we're catching up ;)


I just don't read it that way (and certainly acknowledge the tounge in cheek manner you are mentioning it) I see it as marketing spin - but certainly no evil intent or attempt to deceive - especially give the fact that they in the article make a point of equating Christians and Muslims.

[Varaj]

I'm not sure I would list either Sunni or Shia they same as Catholics. More like Catholics vs Protestants. Islam is not nearly as unified as they like to pretend.

[Xavier Lang]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL3068682420080330?rpc=92

Now, the headline makes sense. But in the text it says that "Islam has overtaken Roman Catholicism as the biggest single religious denomination".

Would you consider Catholicism equal to Islam instead of say, Christianity to Islam?

It seems like almost bizzaro land fear mongering. If you know Roman Catholics are only a part of Christianity and you are at least marginally aware of divisions in Islam like Sunni, Shia, etc... How can you write that headline? The divisions of Islam are talked about in discussions about the conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq all the time. Sunni and Shia can probably be compared to Protestant and Catholic best.

[Varaj]

It seems like almost bizzaro land fear mongering. If you know Roman Catholics are only a part of Christianity and you are at least marginally aware of divisions in Islam like Sunni, Shia, etc... How can you write that headline? The divisions of Islam are talked about in discussions about the conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq all the time. Sunni and Shia can probably be compared to Protestant and Catholic best.

Naw Sunni vs Shia is closer to Protestants vs Baptists. Islam doesn't really have the unified equivalent of Catholics.

[Xavier Lang]

Naw Sunni vs Shia is closer to Protestants vs Baptists. Islam doesn't really have the unified equivalent of Catholics.

My bad, I was not aware of that.

[Varaj]

My bad, I was not aware of that.

They try to present a more unified front and they are in truth more unified then your average Protestant sect but they aren't really as unified as they would like to pretend and nothing like the Catholics.

[Darkfire]

They try to present a more unified front and they are in truth more unified then your average Protestant sect but they aren't really as unified as they would like to pretend and nothing like the Catholics.

Unification isn't something that is really focused on in Islam (by local religous groups to consolidate power yes, but not in Islam itself) and we're certainly not as centralised as the Catholics, but I guess it makes for better news to talk about a homogenous 'Islam'.

Would stress though that we're big on the concept of universal brotherhood with only Allah being charge though.

[Varaj]

Unification isn't something that is really focused on in Islam (by local religous groups to consolidate power yes, but not in Islam itself) and we're certainly not as centralised as the Catholics, but I guess it makes for better news to talk about a homogenous 'Islam'.

Would stress though that we're big on the concept of universal brotherhood with only Allah being charge though.

Also big on the only one Islam which isn't truly the way I see it. The divisions are stronger than that in my eyes. :)

[Utrecht]

But given the decentralized nature of Islam and the organic way that it responds to the world, I beleive that it is fair to say that there are more Muslims than Catholics (not sure of the value of the statement)

Further, I suspect that many Muslims dont make the distinctions between Catholics and Babtists - believing that the Pope speaks for all Christians.

[Varaj]

But given the decentralized nature of Islam and the organic way that it responds to the world, I beleive that it is fair to say that there are more Muslims than Catholics (not sure of the value of the statement)


That is kind of my point. It is comparing apples to oranges and doesn't provide anything but a point for Catholics to rage about. :)


Further, I suspect that many Muslims dont make the distinctions between Catholics and Babtists - believing that the Pope speaks for all Christians.

I think that is probably true among the lesser educated just as many Christians think that if one Iman says something they see it as speaking for all Muslims.

[Darkfire]

Also big on the only one Islam which isn't truly the way I see it. The divisions are stronger than that in my eyes. :)

I think the issue is the most problematic in the west where you have many immigrant communities interacting in a much more culturally defensive way than might otherwise have occured.

Case in point a speaker at a local Pakistanni dominant mosque made some unflattering comments, which had more to do with he came from than what he said, about a thinker which many in a local Morrocan mosque follow. The greater muslim community did however work really hard at smoothing ruffled feathers though :)

[Varaj]

I think the issue is the most problematic in the west where you have many immigrant communities interacting in a much more culturally defensive way than might otherwise have occured.

Case in point a speaker at a local Pakistanni dominant mosque made some unflattering comments, which had more to do with he came from than what he said, about a thinker which many in a local Morrocan mosque follow. The greater muslim community did however work really hard at smoothing ruffled feathers though :)

Heh. If there was really "one Islam under Allah" it wouldn't be an issue. Sure individuals are still going to say stupid things but there are whole congregations or countries that pick up some variant that most of the rest of the Muslim community wishes would just go away but hesitate to really speak out because of fear of breaking the "one Islam" thing.
It is one of my complaints with Islam.

[Darkfire]

Heh. If there was really "one Islam under Allah" it wouldn't be an issue. Sure individuals are still going to say stupid things but there are whole congregations or countries that pick up some variant that most of the rest of the Muslim community wishes would just go away but hesitate to really speak out because of fear of breaking the "one Islam" thing.
It is one of my complaints with Islam.

I was having this conversation a few days ago and, not suprisingly, I see it as a strength instead.

You'll notice that at the end of any fatwa the phrase 'Allah knows best' is used and an integral part of Islam is that only Allah actually knows what He meant in His messages. So no one here gets to say something is catagorically right or wrong, only what there reasoning and judgement call is. So while you don't get the general muslim community saying covering women in head to toe clothing is wrong you also don't get the general community saying women leading prayer is wrong.

Of course you'll always get someone who thinks they speak for everyone when they make their own call about the issue, but as muslims we're totally free to follow our own judgement about issues (provided of course we're willing to stand before Allah one day and explain ourselves).

[Xavier Lang]

... but as muslims we're totally free to follow our own judgement about issues (provided of course we're willing to stand before Allah one day and explain ourselves).

I have not gotten that impression at ALL from Islam. The sense of community and unity in Islam that you want with the "One Islam under Allah" doesn't mesh with your statement that people are freely allowed to make there own judgment.

[Varaj]

I was having this conversation a few days ago and, not suprisingly, I see it as a strength instead.

You'll notice that at the end of any fatwa the phrase 'Allah knows best' is used and an integral part of Islam is that only Allah actually knows what He meant in His messages. So no one here gets to say something is catagorically right or wrong, only what there reasoning and judgement call is. So while you don't get the general muslim community saying covering women in head to toe clothing is wrong you also don't get the general community saying women leading prayer is wrong.

Of course you'll always get someone who thinks they speak for everyone when they make their own call about the issue, but as muslims we're totally free to follow our own judgement about issues (provided of course we're willing to stand before Allah one day and explain ourselves).


You also don't get people speaking out against the problems with Islam. That is the issue I have. Even on issues on suicide bombings most Imans will not directly say they see a problem with it. They dance around it and try to play the fields but they won't really criticize another Iman's fatwah.

[Darkfire]

You also don't get people speaking out against the problems with Islam. That is the issue I have. Even on issues on suicide bombings most Imans will not directly say they see a problem with it. They dance around it and try to play the fields but they won't really criticize another Iman's fatwah.

(shrug)

On the other hand we don't have a centralised authority telling everyone that suicide bombing is glorious and we should all get on with it.

To each their own I guess.

[Varaj]

(shrug)

On the other hand we don't have a centralised authority telling everyone that suicide bombing is glorious and we should all get on with it.

To each their own I guess.

You mistake me. I don't want a centralized authority in Islam what I would like to see is Islam recognize it isn't "one under Allah" and begin to criticize other Muslims. It is what had to happen in Christianity for it to move into a more modern and safe for humanity variant. It needs to happen in Islam. Until Muslims are willing to speak out against specific Imans and fatwahs and harshly criticize those they feel are wrong Islam will continue to be a blight upon freedom and safety.
The false unity and refusal to criticize is, in my opinion, a great weakness in Islam and a major danger to everyone.

[Darkfire]

You mistake me. I don't want a centralized authority in Islam what I would like to see is Islam recognize it isn't "one under Allah" and begin to criticize other Muslims. It is what had to happen in Christianity for it to move into a more modern and safe for humanity variant. It needs to happen in Islam. Until Muslims are willing to speak out against specific Imans and fatwahs and harshly criticize those they feel are wrong Islam will continue to be a blight upon freedom and safety.
The false unity and refusal to criticize is, in my opinion, a great weakness in Islam and a major danger to everyone.

Ahhh, my apologies for misunderstanding and for what its worth I agree. The push to re-examine the body law that underlies the 4 major sunni schools is hopefully the first step towards this.

Will see if I can find the article, but I think Turkey is doing something like this at the moment.

edit: here we go


Updating Islam

Ian Traynor



27 March 2008 06:00

Turkey is engaged in a bold attempt to rewrite the basis for Islamic sharia law while reinterpreting the Qur'an for the modern age.

The exercise in reforming Islamic jurisprudence, sponsored by the modernising and mildly Islamic government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is being seen as an attempt to establish a 21st-century form of Islam, fusing Muslim beliefs and tradition with European and Western philosophy.

The result, say experts following the ambitious experiment, could be to diminish Muslim discrimination against women and banish some of the brutal penalties associated with Islamic law, such as stoning and amputation. It could redefine Islam as a modern, dynamic force in the large country that pivots between East and West, leaning into the Middle East while aspiring to join the European Union.

Fadi Hakura, a Turkey expert at the London-based International Institute of Strategic Studies, described the project as an attempt to make Turkish Sunni Islam "fully compatible with contemporary social and moral values.

"They see this not as a revolution, but as a return to the original Islam, away from the excessive conservatism that has stymied all reforms for the last few centuries. It's somewhat akin to the Christian Reformation."

A team of reformist Islamic scholars at Ankara University is working under the guidance of Ali Bardokoglu, the liberal scholar who heads the government body that oversees the country's 8 000 mosques and appoints imams, who was appointed by Erdogan.

The team is writing a new five-volume exegesis of the Qur'an, taking the sacred text apart forensically, rooting it in its time and place, and redefining its message to and relevance for Muslims today. It is also ditching some of the Hadith, sayings ascribed to and comments on the Prophet Muhammad that were collected a few hundred years after his death.

A Roman Catholic Jesuit expert on Turkey and Islam, Felix Koerner, is working with the Ankara team, reportedly schooling them in the history of Western religious and philosophical change and how to apply the lessons of Christian reform movements to modern Islam.

Sources say the Islamic reform project is so ambitious and so fundamental it will take years to complete, but that it is already paying dividends: abolition of the death penalty, a campaign against "honour" killings and the training and appointment of several hundred women as imams. -- © Guardian News & Media Ltd 2008

[Varaj]

Ahhh, my apologies for misunderstanding and for what its worth I agree. The push to re-examine the body law that underlies the 4 major sunni schools is hopefully the first step towards this.

Will see if I can find the article, but I think Turkey is doing something like this at the moment.

edit: here we go

Thanks for the article. I really hope Turkey can move forward with it. I think it would be a great thing for Islam.

[Xavier Lang]

Ahhh, my apologies for misunderstanding and for what its worth I agree. The push to re-examine the body law that underlies the 4 major sunni schools is hopefully the first step towards this.

Will see if I can find the article, but I think Turkey is doing something like this at the moment.

edit: here we go

I hope the work in Turkey goes well and is taken main stream. I agree that it would be an excellent move.