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Glass
08-12-2007, 09:31 AM
Jack McClellan blogs openly about where best to meet girls under the age of 12. The local authorities are watching him, warily. Should just talking about such matters be enough to get him locked up? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20060340/site/newsweek/page/0/)

July 31, 2007 - Is there such a thing as a lawful pedophile? Parents and children’s advocates in the Los Angeles area have grown worried about Jack McClellan, a self-described pedophile who in recent months has maintained an on-again, off-again Web page where he charts his trips to family-friendly venues like parks, county fairs and bowling alleys to meet what he calls LGs—little girls. McClellan tells reporters that he gets a “high” from being around girls between 3 to 11 years old, but insists he does not molest them. (Pedophilia covers a continuum from legal fantasy to illegal molestation and rape.) So far, law-enforcement officials agree with him. L.A.-area cops say McClellan is not under investigation. “We’ve monitored his Web site, and at the moment we’re determined that it does not cross into that area where it’s criminal in nature,” says Capt. Joe Gutierrez, commander of the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Special Victims Bureau, which handles sex crimes and child-exploitation cases.

(On Friday, a pair of California fathers decided to use the courts to stop McClellan. Anthony Zinnanti and Richard Patterson, who are also lawyers, successfully obtained a temporary restraining order that bars McClellan from approaching or photographing children under 18 anywhere in California. Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Melvin D. Sandvig ordered McCellan to “stay at least 10 yards” from any minor child in the state, barred him from photographing or using an image of kids without parental consent and commanded him not to “loiter where minor children congregate including…schools, parks, playgrounds, (and) bowling alleys.” McClellan wasn't present at the hearing, and the order couldn't take effect until he was formally served with it. After a frantic search for the self-proclaimed pedophile, Zinnanti found him by mid-afternoon—at LAX, boarding a flight for Chicago. Zinnanti served the papers, and later explained to NEWSWEEK why it was important to stop McClellan through the court. "I wanted to protect the kids and also to give the community the sense there is recourse through the system," Zinnanti says.)

McClellan is atypical; he seems to enjoy the spotlight, whereas most practicing pedophiles stay in the shadows. The 45-year-old—who lives in local motels, and, he told reporters, has had bouts of depression and supports himself with disability checks—came to local prominence in Washington state in the spring. He’d been running a similar site, called Seattle-Tacoma-Everett Girl Love, freely discussing the merits of meeting young girls at Easter-egg hunts, “bouncy houses” and church socials and offering how-to advice for other pedophiles. (“Most libraries have frequent programs and events for children, and sometimes you can get quite close to LGs there,” ran one post last spring.) But a public outcry led the service provider to shut his Web site and he moved to the L.A. area, where he soon went public with a similar site. He talks to reporters and even allowed the Santa Monica Police Department to shoot a mug shot of him—which he thought might help eliminate him as a suspect in future cases—though he got angry when police used it in a “Public Information Bulletin” warning residents about a “Notorious Pedophile Advocate.”

Gutierrez won’t say what steps his department is taking to keep an eye on McClellan, whose latest Web site is currently down (it’s unclear whether McClellan took it down voluntarily). Surveillance, undercover operations, information sharing and joint operations with other police agencies are options—even before police launch a formal investigation. “We will be proactive,” he says. “We don’t necessarily wait for a crime to occur.”

Cops face a tough dilemma. If they do too little, they risk letting something horrible happen to a child—and enraging a community that will be hard-pressed to understand why someone on law-enforcement’s radar could get away with a crime. If the police act too quickly, they might violate the civil liberties of a law-abiding citizen, no matter how repugnant to community standards his predilections might be.

Courts rarely restrict free speech—except in a few fact patterns, including when the writer is clearly instructing readers on how to commit crimes. "There are cases where the courts have limited speech when they concluded that people have done nothing more than create instruction manuals on how to commit a crime,” says Peter Eliasberg, managing attorney for the ACLU of Southern California, whose group has not taken a stand in the McClellan matter. “Generally, those are cases where there are very explicit sets of instructions or directions. I have not seen the Web site, so I can’t say whether it fits or not.

But the fact that McClellan can speak out so publicly is disturbing to Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children. Allen says he trusts that police in Washington and California are being vigilant. But he doubts that McClellan will be able to resist engaging in molestation. And he says that McClellan’s how-to advice should not be given free-speech protections. Allen spoke to NEWSWEEK’s Andrew Murr about how the cops should handle McClellan—and his belief that instructing potential pedophiles about places to meet kids is tantamount to yelling “fire!" in a crowded theater. Excerpts:

NEWSWEEK: Law-enforcement officials say McClellan is not breaking the law by cruising family-friendly parks and fairs and posting it online? Do you agree?
Ernie Allen: We think this strains the limits of free speech. This is [like] communications from the people who tell you how to make bombs on the Internet. We certainly believe in the sanctity of the First Amendment and free speech, but when the nature of the speech takes on the character of illegal action, when it counsels and advises and informs people about techniques for committing crimes, I find that really troubling. It really goes right to the edge. And in so many of these kinds of instances, when you look more closely, it really does go over the line.

For example, we were very interested in some child-modeling sites. They aren’t illegal. But in some cases law enforcement has scrutinized them and found they have indeed resulted in the victimization of children offline. Many times these things are a cover for abuse and they also are fanning the fantasies of those who access these sites. But the First Amendment is not just a constraint, it’s a very real protection and we espouse and support it.

Are you satisfied that law enforcement is looking carefully at this man?
We know that law enforcement has looked closely at this guy. And you just have to keep doing that. This is a really serious concern.

Is it the pictures that concern you or the words that surround them that talk about good places to spot little girls, or both?
It’s both. The reality is that I don’t think there is any question about the purpose and intent of what he’s doing. He’s not disguising it. It’s sort of a primer on where to go. And the fact that he is using photographs of children, so that there’s no question in my mind what the message is. I think law enforcement is right, that as long as this is public it probably doesn’t violate the law. But our view is that you need to look real close at this guy.

What else bothers you about him?
There’s an irony in how scary and creepy this guy looks. We have spent a lot of time communicating to moms and dads and kids that the stereotypical view of offenders [as a creepy stranger] is very different [from the reality]. We know for a fact that those who prey upon children are people who seek legitimate access and don’t look like stereotypes. These are doctors, lawyers, schoolteachers and executives and police officers; it really crosses the societal spectrum. The vast majority don’t look the way children expect them to look. We’ve done focus groups with kids. They all get the idea they shouldn’t talk to strangers. But when you ask them what a stranger is, it’s invariably somebody who is big and scary and dirty and ugly: people who look like they are going to hurt you. But really, [the pedophile] is far more likely to be someone who is a friend, a coach. One of the most negative things from Mr. McClellan’s work is that he is playing directly into the myth that we are trying to dispel.

Think he’s doing that deliberately?
I have no idea whether it’s conscious or not. But there’s no question that what he’s doing is certainly capturing the attention of a lot of parents. We’ve gotten calls about him. How can this happen? How can someone do this? Unfortunately, as the L.A. Sheriff points out, this is a guy who knows to go right to the line and not cross it. Our view is that we need to look more closely. Because it’s not conceivable to us that somebody can do this without crossing the line.

How rare is it that people behave this publicly?
It’s rare. And I’m sure part of it is for effect. But it’s troubling. There’s the National Man/Boy Love Association, NAMBLA. Its view has always been that it does not engage in physical acts against children. They say they are a civil rights organization. There have been efforts by some to incorporate them into the gay and lesbian rights issues, and they have been rejected by the gay organizations.

And there have been reporters who have infiltrated some of [these kinds of] groups. A few years ago, a man went into one of these groups with a hidden microphone. Well, the people at the so-called “civil rights” group spent the whole meeting trading photos of kids and talking about how they could access kids. That’s why I am deeply skeptical about these kinds of behaviors. It’s usually driven by the desire to access and harm real kids.

Are the laws against pedophilia adequate? Is the beginning of the spectrum of what is illegal in the right place? Should what this guy is doing be illegal?
I think we know that there is a long history protecting free speech going back 100 years to Schenck v. U.S. [the 1919 Supreme Court case which established that speech must present a “clear and present danger” of leading to harm before it can be abridged] and shouting fire in a crowded theater. Free speech is so sacred that in order for it to be limited, it should take on the character of illegal action. I think in this case, where this guy shows real children where he is not getting prior consent [for photos] and where he is getting a how to for pedophiles on where to find children—in my view that certainly crosses the line.

We are not in any way second-guessing law enforcement. This is right at the edge of shouting fire in a crowded theater. Certainly by inference this promotes illegal action. This is a cookbook on how to be successful as a pedophile. Children do not have the ability to consent. I understand that free speech is easy when it is popular, but when there is an exercise of speech that in my judgment advocates illegal [activity] that results in the victimization of children, there’s a real need to look closely at it. I’m not suggesting that he’s crossed the line, but he’s hovering on the edge of it.

He’s been very overt on his Web sites. Is there any reason to think he might be playing an elaborate practical joke?
From our perspective it doesn’t much matter what his motives are. This may be a practical joke. I think you have to look at that. He may have a need to draw attention to himself and be enjoying the media spotlight. But whatever his motives, the content causes harm. Certainly, it enhances the risk to real children. The more you mainstream this kind of philosophy and lay out the techniques, you are persuading or inducing somebody who says, well, yeah, it’s easier than I thought. I think what we’ve learned in this Internet age is that there are far more people out there who are attracted to children sexually than any of us thought possible. I talk about one lead to our cyber tipline that led to the arrest of a husband and wife in Texas who went into the child-pornography business. When the Dallas police shut them down, they had 70,000 customers who’d paid $29.95 a month to access graphic images of small children.

McClellan has said that he has “attractions” but he hasn’t let it get “out of control.”
I am deeply skeptical that true pedophiles are able to do that. We hope that treatment programs and other interventions use the Alcoholic Anonymous model. I think there is abundant evidence that significant subsets are not able to do that. As it relates to child pornography, if you say they should be able to look at them if they didn't make them, our basic message is that these are crime-scene photos. Every time you show that photo you are revictimizing that child, so there’s zero. Far better for the people he’s reaching to go get treatment rather than learn from him how you can access children embellished by photos of real children.

Where do you think this matter with McClellan is going to wind up?
I think ultimately law enforcement is going to have to assess this and make a decision about whether he has crossed the line. It reminds me of the dramatic and difficult free-speech cases. It reminds me of the case when the American Nazi Party wanted to march through a Jewish community [in Skokie, Ill.]. I think this is of the same order. I would not be surprised whether his intent isn’t to test the limits of free speech. My view is that you have a right to swing your arm anywhere you want, limited only by where my nose is. I’m afraid the impacts of his free speech will translate into real action, the harming of real children. He’s flaunting it.

Keeper of Secrets
08-12-2007, 10:26 AM
This is the kind of issue which law professors love to talk about. I guess for my part, it is disturbing to me but since he has not advocated a crime or been charged with one, you have to let him say what he wants. Though, I also have no problems if the cops want to monitor and watch him.

Glass
08-12-2007, 10:30 AM
If only all the creeptards could be this public about their creepiness. Although the fact that he was taking pictures of little girls is extra-creepy(on top of being a pedo blogging about trying to meet little girls and living a semi-transient lifestyle), and I'm glad that they put a stop to that.

The Winslow
08-12-2007, 11:04 AM
He's certainly getting off on the attention he gets, in addition to his sick fantasies about underage girls.

If he does cross the line one day, I really hope all the inmates will get a full briefing on the guy, his blogs, and the tips he loved to so generously give to all the creeps that roam the Internet.

Atropine Mama
08-12-2007, 02:16 PM
BELLA SMASH :gnasher:

I can't even start development of a conclusion about the free speech issue because the rage I'm in over this evil man won't stop burning

Harry
08-12-2007, 02:29 PM
BELLA SMASH :gnasher:

I can't even start development of a conclusion about the free speech issue because the rage I'm in over this evil man won't stop burning

Evileeyore is here? :eek:

Sojourner Judas
08-12-2007, 02:32 PM
If he does cross the line one day, I really hope all the inmates will get a full briefing on the guy, his blogs, and the tips he loved to so generously give to all the creeps that roam the Internet.Oh, won't really need to. Putting a convicted pedophile in general population in a prison is pretty much a death sentence.

The Winslow
08-12-2007, 02:35 PM
Oh, won't really need to. Putting a convicted pedophile in general population in a prison is pretty much a death sentence.

I know. But there's death sentence, and death sentence. They shouldn't be too merciful when they kill him. Hence the need for a pep talk.

Sojourner Judas
08-12-2007, 03:01 PM
I know. But there's death sentence, and death sentence. They shouldn't be too merciful when they kill him. Hence the need for a pep talk.Oh, so you're aiming for the difference between "shivved with a sharpened screwdriver" and "raped with a power drill."

The Winslow
08-12-2007, 03:21 PM
Something like that.

PWD
08-12-2007, 05:10 PM
BELLA SMASH :gnasher:

I can't even start development of a conclusion about the free speech issue because the rage I'm in over this evil man won't stop burning

Exactly. Internet tough-guyism be damned, I don't give a flying fuck whether or not this guy has actually crossed the line *yet*, since it's a matter of time.

He will hurt some innocent child some day, and we all knew it was coming. Sleep with that on your conscience, mamby-pamby bitches.

Off him now.

pandiculator
08-12-2007, 06:47 PM
Exactly. Internet tough-guyism be damned, I don't give a flying fuck whether or not this guy has actually crossed the line *yet*, since it's a matter of time.

He will hurt some innocent child some day, and we all knew it was coming. Sleep with that on your conscience, mamby-pamby bitches.

Off him now.


It's exactly this kind of thing that damages civil liberties. Not that I like the idea of this guy roaming around a hair's breadth away from committing a truly horrible crime...but the concept of innocence presumed before guilt it of such imperative importiance that it's a risk I am willing to take.

I would suggest that perhaps he should be hospitalized, but then I remembered how our country treats the mentally ill.

I might also add here that perhaps if I didn't feel that the idea of innocence before guilt was rapidly vaporizing before my very eyes, that I would have no problem removing this shitstain.

Sojourner Judas
08-12-2007, 07:04 PM
It's exactly this kind of thing that damages civil liberties. Not that I like the idea of this guy roaming around a hair's breadth away from committing a truly horrible crime...but the concept of innocence presumed before guilt it of such imperative importiance that it's a risk I am willing to take.Yeah, the restraining order they slapped him with is questionably legal to begin with.

Ancalagon
08-12-2007, 07:52 PM
sooner or later something is going to happen to a kid. And whether or not he did it, he's going to get lynched by the locals - you reap what you sow.

PWD
08-12-2007, 07:56 PM
Pedophiles aren't hypothetical future abuse cases. They all offend, whether directly or indirectly (by consuming child porn and thus supporting the direct abuse), and there is no curing them.

If one helps us out by self-identifying before they inevitably follow through, so much the better. We can eliminate the threat before even the first child is harmed. I'm fairly flexible on the form of that elimination. They could just as easily be dumped on a tropical island work farm for all I care, so long as they're out of circulation.

This is not internet toughguyism. I'm a strong proponent of civil liberties. This is 100% real. These are *not* hypotheticals.

Maynard G. Krebs
08-12-2007, 07:56 PM
The guy's mind is horrifying, but for now this is clearly thought-crime territory.

The fact that he's making his desires public, while disgusting, does at least mean that he stays under the police microscope.

Ancalagon
08-12-2007, 08:30 PM
Pedophiles aren't hypothetical future abuse cases. They all offend, whether directly or indirectly (by consuming child porn and thus supporting the direct abuse), and there is no curing them.

I hate to say it, but your logic doesn't hold up here... do all "non-molesting" pedophile look at child porn?

PWD
08-12-2007, 09:00 PM
I hate to say it, but your logic doesn't hold up here... do all "non-molesting" pedophile look at child porn?

Enough that I'm comfortable.

The Winslow
08-13-2007, 05:07 AM
and there is no curing them.

You can't prove a negative that easily. We still have a lot of progress to make in cognitive sciences. There may be curing them, in the future.

Which opens up interesting ethical questions. What about using known pedophiles as guinea pigs for cure experiments? If a way to change someone's sexual mindset is found and used to cure pedophiles, what will happen then? Are the possible consequences a reason not to search for a cure?

PWD
08-13-2007, 09:42 AM
You can't prove a negative that easily. We still have a lot of progress to make in cognitive sciences. There may be curing them, in the future.

There isn't now.

There may be a way in the future to prevent unwanted nuclear explosions. Until that time, we take steps to prevent people from having them, because of what they *might* do.

The Winslow
08-13-2007, 09:56 AM
I would have thought you would like my idea of rounding them up to perform unethical experiment on them. If a cure is found, that's a major win; and if one isn't, there's still the minor win that they're rounded up somewhere in a controled environment and undergoing various mental conditioning methods that can certainly be likened to torture. (Cue Clockwork Orange.)

PWD
08-13-2007, 10:15 AM
I don't particularly wish for them to be tortured. Unless they've molested a child, of course.

But for the so-called law-abiding pedophiles I'm perfectly fine with segregating them off somewhere to be ignored. Until it's proven what they have actually done, and then they can answer for that.

doc
08-13-2007, 03:07 PM
Oh, so you're aiming for the difference between "shivved with a sharpened screwdriver" and "raped with a power drill."

How about a hammer drill with a spade bit ?

Ancalagon
08-13-2007, 08:27 PM
hmmm - I am really not comfortable with this thought crime angle you are going for there...

Rape fantasies are quite common apparently. Should we isolate all those people too? I would guess the majority of people who have them never go through with it because it's wrong.

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 03:54 PM
What fascinates me about this guy is this: What if no one knew he was doing this? No one knew he was essentially stalking kids. If he never laid a hand on them, would it still bug people? Of course not, because no one would know. He would just be some creepy guy that makes people nervous. But that isn't illegal. And it shouldn't be...

You file charges against people for crimes they have actually committed. Not crimes they have thought about... If thought crimes were illegal I would have been executed decades ago...

Of course I am also opposed to torture and execution...

PWD
08-17-2007, 04:07 PM
hmmm - I am really not comfortable with this thought crime angle you are going for there...

Rape fantasies are quite common apparently. Should we isolate all those people too? I would guess the majority of people who have them never go through with it because it's wrong.

Rape fantasies aren't necessarily the result of a sick mind the way pedophilia is.

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 04:11 PM
Rape fantasies aren't necessarily the result of a sick mind the way pedophilia is.

So where is the dividing line? Why is fantasizing about raping an adult "better" than fantasizing about raping a child? I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I really want to know...

mollygrue
08-17-2007, 04:47 PM
WARNING; THE FOLLOWING RANT IS NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH

I have some experience in this area: I will tell you this as clearly and as simply as I can.

Child Molesters dont just talk about it. This isnt fantasy like your french maids and so on; this is their real sexual orientation and it is inherently a part of them just as whether you are straight or gay or bi or none of the above.

They do these things, they enjoy doing these things and they dont change and they dont reform and they dont stop. (check into the recividism rates on this)

When apprehended they often claim to be victimized themselves by the seductive behaviour of the child. ( who may be an infant, a toddler, a preschooler.....)

They do not care, at all, what the consequences are to their victims--to their prey. They feed on the fear and the power and the control.

If a child survivves the experiance, their sense of self, and sexuality have been pretty well run thru a blender with a large dose of terror.

Do any of you recall the story of the little girl taken into the wilderness park, raped repeatedly then left, inthe pit of an out house to die? She was found, eventually by a hiker--but do you remember her dead eyes?

And what of little Jessica down in florida a while back--kidnapped from her own bed, repeatedly raped over a period of days they buried alive, to die, slowly alone in the dark, of suffocation, her body ravaged--her bunny clutched tightly in her arms.

These people, usually tho not always men, perpetrate unspeakable acts on children for their own gratification: infants are penetrated, toddlers forced to provide oral sex in exchange for their daily food--or their next breath.

There is no circle of hell to which i wouldnot condemn them one and all.
I had not heard of this person before, and I wish I had not now--because I have an overwhelming urge to cross county and end the issue in a very final manner.

To hell with their civil rights and to hell with them.

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 04:53 PM
I'm a survivor of sexual abuse. My Scoutmaster. I'm not a big supporter of the BSA...

And I still do not want these predators tortured or killed...

Lock them up. Exile them to some island. But treat them humanely. Otherwise we are no better than they are...

But don't do anything until they have been convicted by a court of law...

PWD
08-17-2007, 05:03 PM
So where is the dividing line? Why is fantasizing about raping an adult "better" than fantasizing about raping a child? I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I really want to know...

I've made it perfectly clear, I don't give a damn where any dividing line or other philosophical wanking lies on this topic.

These predators are a clear and present danger, to steal a movie line. I have no ethical qualms whatsoever in treating them completely separately from the standard justice system.

None whatsoever. People can piss and moan about precedents and slippery slopes and wahwah all they want, but it means nothing. It doesn't even enter the debate. These animals need dealing with before they commit their inevitable offences.

Position clear enough? I'm not looking to convert anyone, I'm not trying to win any debates, and I don't give a shit how many philosophers keel over and die in shock at my position. It doesn't matter to me that people will read this and disagree. I'm just telling you how it is.

mollygrue
08-17-2007, 05:07 PM
I've made it perfectly clear, I don't give a damn where any dividing line or other philosophical wanking lies on this topic.

These predators are a clear and present danger, to steal a movie line. I have no ethical qualms whatsoever in treating them completely separately from the standard justice system.

None whatsoever. People can piss and moan about precedents and slippery slopes and wahwah all they want, but it means nothing. It doesn't even enter the debate. These animals need dealing with before they commit their inevitable offences.

Position clear enough? I'm not looking to convert anyone, I'm not trying to win any debates, and I don't give a shit how many philosophers keel over and die in shock at my position. It doesn't matter to me that people will read this and disagree. I'm just telling you how it is.
BRAVO.

Droid101
08-17-2007, 05:07 PM
Position clear enough? I'm not looking to convert anyone, I'm not trying to win any debates, and I don't give a shit how many philosophers keel over and die in shock at my position.

Socrates just had a myocardial infarction.

PWD
08-17-2007, 05:09 PM
Socrates just had a minor cardial infarction.

Good, I'm tired of taking ethical pointers from someone who shagged young boys sent to him for education.

Droid101
08-17-2007, 05:16 PM
Good, I'm tired of taking ethical pointers from someone who shagged young boys sent to him for education.

Yeah that's right, I went back and edited my post.

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 05:16 PM
I've made it perfectly clear, I don't give a damn where any dividing line or other philosophical wanking lies on this topic.

These predators are a clear and present danger, to steal a movie line. I have no ethical qualms whatsoever in treating them completely separately from the standard justice system.

None whatsoever. People can piss and moan about precedents and slippery slopes and wahwah all they want, but it means nothing. It doesn't even enter the debate. These animals need dealing with before they commit their inevitable offences.

Position clear enough? I'm not looking to convert anyone, I'm not trying to win any debates, and I don't give a shit how many philosophers keel over and die in shock at my position. It doesn't matter to me that people will read this and disagree. I'm just telling you how it is.

I understand your point of view. *I've* held that same point of view in the past.

But what if you are wrong? What if you think a person is a "clear and present danger" but they aren't? That route leads to barbarism...

PWD
08-17-2007, 05:20 PM
But what if you are wrong? What if you think a person is a "clear and present danger" but they aren't? That route leads to barbarism...

Since we're talking about admitted pedophiles, I'm comfortable as can be.

And Barbarism got a bad rap. Look at what the so-called civilized people were up to.

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 05:30 PM
Since we're talking about admitted pedophiles, I'm comfortable as can be.

And Barbarism got a bad rap. Look at what the so-called civilized people were up to.

You can *still* be wrong. People confess to crimes they haven't committed all the time. For many reasons.

If people act in a barbaric manner, they aren't civilized. Regardless of the time period.

PWD
08-17-2007, 05:34 PM
You can *still* be wrong. People confess to crimes they haven't committed all the time. For many reasons.

If people act in a barbaric manner, they aren't civilized. Regardless of the time period.

In order to be treated as a human, one must act as a human. Pedophiles, animal abusers, and others have forfeited that right. They will take what they get.

If you admit to something you have not done, more power to you, enjoy the ride.

mollygrue
08-17-2007, 05:42 PM
WELL SAID!

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 05:48 PM
In order to be treated as a human, one must act as a human. Pedophiles, animal abusers, and others have forfeited that right. They will take what they get.

If you admit to something you have not done, more power to you, enjoy the ride.

What if the confession was beaten out of the person? Or they are mentally diminished? Or just plain insane?

It is better to let a thousand guilty people go free then punish one innocent person...

PWD
08-17-2007, 05:52 PM
What if the confession was beaten out of the person? Or they are mentally diminished? Or just plain insane?

It is better to let a thousand guilty people go free then punish one innocent person...

Countdown to Gandalf quote in 3...2....1...

It's bunk. You take a reasoned approach and you dot your I's and cross your T's, and then you exile these animals. You watch the watchers, and you punish the unholy hell out of people who try to game the system. They get at least the punishment that would have fallen to the convict, preferably much more.

See, it's a common disingenuous tactic: Shift the argument away from the direct point in question, towards your dissatisfaction with the system as it stands. If there are flaws in the system that concern you about the application of justice, then you address the system, you don't change the definition of justice.

There are issues with the system as it stands. No debate. But one issue does not override the other. Both issues need to be addressed maturely and objectively, and above all independently. People who lacked the moral fiber to do so are the reason we have such a self-contradictory bundle of half-implemented ideals currently.

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 06:05 PM
Countdown to Gandalf quote in 3...2....1...

It's bunk. You take a reasoned approach and you dot your I's and cross your T's, and then you exile these animals. You watch the watchers, and you punish the unholy hell out of people who try to game the system. They get at least the punishment that would have fallen to the convict, preferably much more.

See, it's a common disingenuous tactic: Shift the argument away from the direct point in question, towards your dissatisfaction with the system as it stands. If there are flaws in the system that concern you about the application of justice, then you address the system, you don't change the definition of justice.

There are issues with the system as it stands. No debate. But one issue does not override the other. Both issues need to be addressed maturely and objectively, and above all independently. People who lacked the moral fiber to do so are the reason we have such a self-contradictory bundle of half-implemented ideals currently.

That might work if we were dealing with computers. But we are dealing with humans. Which means dealing with all of their flaws. You can't depend on anyone not being effected by crimes of this nature. Innocent people will be harmed. And not just the victims of the crime. Victims of the process, the system if you will. I prefer that we as a society err on the side of caution...

Life is not as clear cut as we might want it to be...

PWD
08-17-2007, 06:07 PM
That might work if we were dealing with computers. But we are dealing with humans. Which means dealing with all of their flaws. You can't depend on anyone not being effected by crimes of this nature. Innocent people will be harmed. And not just the victims of the crime. Victims of the process, the system if you will. I prefer that we as a society err on the side of caution...

Life is not as clear cut as we might want it to be...

Life is as clear cut as we approach it, with due deference for recognizing and addressing systemic errors, but without excessive fearmongering or continual navel gazing and the paralysis of self-doubt. History has been too far down the pragmatism path, we are currently far and away too far gone on the self-doubt side.

Pragmatism works. It's due for a comeback.

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 06:21 PM
Life is as clear cut as we approach it, with due deference for recognizing and addressing systemic errors, but without excessive fearmongering or continual navel gazing and the paralysis of self-doubt. History has been too far down the pragmatism path, we are currently far and away too far gone on the self-doubt side.

Pragmatism works. It's due for a comeback.

Pragmatism does work. But it *must* be tempered with compassion. Otherwise you become a fascist despot.

But at least the trains are on time...

PWD
08-17-2007, 06:28 PM
Pragmatism does work. But it *must* be tempered with compassion. Otherwise you become a fascist despot.

But at least the trains are on time...

Compassion is irrelevant in its own right. Pragmatically, a certain element of compassion is a wise thing to mix in, in appropriate levels, to keep the consumers of the system engaged.

On its own it serves no purpose in this context. As such, compassion cannot override pragmatism as the conductor of the train. Compassion cannot be trusted to make the right choices, pragmatism can. It's doesn't make sense to the pragmatic to run a badly flawed system, because that undermines the entire process. That said, it is acceptable from a pragmatic point of view to accept certain small flaws, so long as they are countered with extra effort.

Compassion on the other hand blindly tends toward forgiveness and mitigation, neither of which necessarily serve the greater good. They may, and that should be taken into account at the most pragmatic level. No more.

mollygrue
08-17-2007, 06:39 PM
Question: ask yourselves, honestly, would you want him to live next door to you? { or next door to fill in the blank name of child of your choice goes here}

after all....all he has done is talk......


but then of course, CHARLES MANSON did not actually commit the infamous Tate -LaBianca muders did he? wasnt even there as a matter of fact.
still in prison for it tho.

and, more recently--osama bin laden hasnt come to our country with a bomb in his suitcase (see other thread for imagery)--blowing up any planes or buildings: alll he personally does, as i understand it is talk about such things to his followers. but we are still a bit miffed at him arnt we?

so, tell me what is the difference?

if we go withthe basic agreement in terms that we are strictly limiting the definiton of pedo here to those attracted to children 12 and under, who are at least semi funtional, able to understand the premise of the laws, and are not being forced to confess--those who are in this group voluntarily--seems pretty clear cut to me.

and as for the better a thousand concept, i cannot agree.

i would regret the punishment of the lonely innocent one, but no so much that i would willingly turn loose a thousand monsters to prey on our children.

could you? really?

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 06:39 PM
Compassion is irrelevant in its own right. Pragmatically, a certain element of compassion is a wise thing to mix in, in appropriate levels, to keep the consumers of the system engaged.

On its own it serves no purpose in this context. As such, compassion cannot override pragmatism as the conductor of the train. Compassion cannot be trusted to make the right choices, pragmatism can. It's doesn't make sense to the pragmatic to run a badly flawed system, because that undermines the entire process. That said, it is acceptable from a pragmatic point of view to accept certain small flaws, so long as they are countered with extra effort.

Compassion on the other hand blindly tends toward forgiveness and mitigation, neither of which necessarily serve the greater good. They may, and that should be taken into account at the most pragmatic level. No more.

Compassion for yourself and others is what makes us human. Compassion is not blind. If you believe that, you can not see...

I understand your desire for justice. I lived with it myself for decades. But it blinded *me* to compassion for all that time. Compassion tempered with pragmatism is a better balance I think.

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 06:42 PM
Question: ask yourselves, honestly, would you want him to live next door to you? { or next door to fill in the blank name of child of your choice goes here}

after all....all he has done is talk......


but then of course, CHARLES MANSON did not actually commit the infamous Tate -LaBianca muders did he? wasnt even there as a matter of fact.
still in prison for it tho.

and, more recently--osama bin laden hasnt come to our country with a bomb in his suitcase (see other thread for imagery)--blowing up any planes or buildings: alll he personally does, as i understand it is talk about such things to his followers. but we are still a bit miffed at him arnt we?

so, tell me what is the difference?

if we go withthe basic agreement in terms that we are strictly limiting the definiton of pedo here to those attracted to children 12 and under, who are at least semi funtional, able to understand the premise of the laws, and are not being forced to confess--those who are in this group voluntarily--seems pretty clear cut to me.

and as for the better a thousand concept, i cannot agree.

i would regret the punishment of the lonely innocent one, but no so much that i would willingly turn loose a thousand monsters to prey on our children.

could you? really?

Yes. Because the children can be protected by other methods.

Would you want to be that one innocent being shoved into a prison full of people that may well have been harmed by sexual abusers?

PWD
08-17-2007, 06:46 PM
Compassion for yourself and others is what makes us human. Compassion is not blind. If you believe that, you can not see..

No, humanity is not based in compassion. Humanity based in the pragmatism of treating those weaker than you in humane ways rather than indulging your every desire. This includes animals and this includes chidlren.

Pedophiles don't meet that description. They self-exclude from treatment as human by other humans. That doesn't necessarily mean it's time to shove hand grenades up all their asses, but by no means ought we tear up over the application of justice upon them. A pedophile who has not yet offended is a pedophile looking for an opportunity. It is only pragmatic to remove them from society as soon as they are identified, whether through offending and being caught and convicted, or through offering themselves up as admitted pedophiles.

There is no curing a pedophile, and there is no disincenting him. Some have continued to reoffend even after undergoing voluntary chemical castration. It is an undeniable bedrock of who they are. They deserve no better than a rabid dog who hasn't yet bitten anyone, though if putting them down offends you, exile ought to be acceptible.

There's a quote that says you can judge a society by how it treats its prisoners. That quote is right, although it's typically only read from one direction, and the other perfectly correct inference is often overlooked in the rush to quote Gandalf.

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 07:08 PM
No, humanity is not based in compassion. Humanity based in the pragmatism of treating those weaker than you in humane ways rather than indulging your every desire. This includes animals and this includes chidlren.

Pedophiles don't meet that description. They self-exclude from treatment as human by other humans. That doesn't necessarily mean it's time to shove hand grenades up all their asses, but by no means ought we tear up over the application of justice upon them. A pedophile who has not yet offended is a pedophile looking for an opportunity. It is only pragmatic to remove them from society as soon as they are identified, whether through offending and being caught and convicted, or through offering themselves up as admitted pedophiles.

There is no curing a pedophile, and there is no disincenting him. Some have continued to reoffend even after undergoing voluntary chemical castration. It is an undeniable bedrock of who they are. They deserve no better than a rabid dog who hasn't yet bitten anyone, though if putting them down offends you, exile ought to be acceptible.

There's a quote that says you can judge a society by how it treats its prisoners. That quote is right, although it's typically only read from one direction, and the other perfectly correct inference is often overlooked in the rush to quote Gandalf.

You are not referring to humanity. You are referring to the Klingons.

Humans without compassion don't deserve the title humanity.

Until a crime is committed, a humane punishment can not be applied. We just aren't going to agree on this. The degree of that humane punishment appears to still be a point of argument in todays world.

And humanity has always treated its prisoners in a rather inhumane manner...

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not getting the Gandalf reference.

PWD
08-17-2007, 07:12 PM
You are not referring to humanity. You are referring to the Klingons.

No, I am referring to Humans with a capital H. Been around several millennia, used to brain each other with clubs (more often, anyhow), rode horses around europe, sent people to the moon. Those guys.

We just aren't going to agree on this.

I believe I was extremely clear in outlining that early on. I believe I also outlined that seeking agreement was not my goal.

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not getting the Gandalf reference.

Name Lips's favorite argument ender should be familiar to everyone by now. I will not repeat it as I refuse to give it any more false legitimacy than it already enjoys in certain circles, but if you are interested look up famous Gandalf quotes referring to Gollum.

Tetsubo
08-17-2007, 07:16 PM
No, I am referring to Humans with a capital H. Been around several millennia, used to brain each other with clubs (more often, anyhow), rode horses around europe, sent people to the moon. Those guys.



I believe I was extremely clear in outlining that early on. I believe I also outlined that seeking agreement was not my goal.



Name Lips's favorite argument ender should be familiar to everyone by now. I will not repeat it as I refuse to give it any more false legitimacy than it already enjoys in certain circles, but if you are interested look up famous Gandalf quotes referring to Gollum.

If that is truly how you see Humanity, I am deeply saddened. I don't know what brought you to this conclusion, but I wish it hadn't happened to you.

PWD
08-17-2007, 07:17 PM
If that is truly how you see Humanity, I am deeply saddened. I don't know what brought you to this conclusion, but I wish it hadn't happened to you.

Not having anything useful to do with your sadness, I shall disregard it as inconsequential.

I expect my own bafflement at how one constructs a worldview like yours would be equally well received, so I shall spare you the sentiment.

mollygrue
08-17-2007, 07:18 PM
exile is a valid option: you are correct in your assessment of the pedophile as a predator of opportunity. it is indeed part of their core.

according to some statistics i popped over to the cdc site and the national sexual assault hotline site to check---54% of all rape victims are under the age of 18. 22% are under the age of 12.

math people will have to help me out here but figure the stated avereage of 200,780 incidents of sexual assault per year reported to occur within the united states, with just over half being minors, of whom one quarter are less than 12 years of age--whats 22% of 200,ooo? 50, ooo more or less?

so --if there are better ways to protect our children--what would they be?
not being sarcastic here--would live to hear ideas and suggestions --cause god knows our system needs them.

tetsubo, i do not agree with what you say --but i honor and respect you for saying it. you are rising above what happened and rather than allowing it to destroy you, you have chosen to be a kinder and more compassionate person. if i knew how to do those "rep thingys" id give you a bunch cause you deserve em.

that said, i must still disagree. what i said about the 1 vs 1000 still stands.
it is the duty of the strong to protect the weak, the vulnerable, the innocent; to portect those who cannot protect themselves. and it is the foremost duty of a species to protect its young.


and i will no more stand aside from that than Mother Wolf would stand aside to Shere Khan--no one will be allowed to harm the young.

Ancalagon
08-18-2007, 03:10 PM
again - no one has proven that sexual orientation/desires/fantasies *always* lead to action. People who have abused children DO deserved to be punished and to be kept away from other children. However, there must be *some* out there who have those desires but don't do anything about out of ethical concerns.

If you say that's impossible, you're basically saying it's impossible for people to control their sexual behavior. And while we know humans often give in to temptation, they also often *don't*.

Punishing someone for though-crimes is wrong, NO MATTER THE THOUGHT CRIME. Several people have advocated turning the middle east into a sea of glass (ie mass nuking, ie GENOCIDE). Killings millions of people (including million of children) is way worse than pedophilia, yet I don't see anyone clamoring for the punishment of though-genocidists...

PWD
08-18-2007, 04:09 PM
again - no one has proven that sexual orientation/desires/fantasies *always* lead to action.

Nobody's looking to, when you generalize it like that. The point in question is specifically pedophilia, and that has been demonstrated.

Don't worry, nobody's looking to lock you up for being a bondage freak.

Varaj
08-18-2007, 04:17 PM
Nobody's looking to, when you generalize it like that. The point in question is specifically pedophilia, and that has been demonstrated.

You are wrong of course but don't let that stop your online masturbation fest.

mollygrue
08-18-2007, 04:30 PM
I am not advocating the creation of an Orwellian society in which thought crime is monitored and punished: certain changes made by the current administration are seeing to the repeal of civil liberty quite quickly enough.

But as I previously mentioned, this is an area I know a great deal about.

The statistics would absolutely chill your soul. I truly believe that people can chose to control their behavior: that is what makes us human--we have choice. But the sad fact of the matter is that this sub category of sociopathic behavior does tend to escalate.

This is not an issue of gender orientation or preference,this is not about what you or he or they find arousing , this is not analcon,about controling sexual behavior: this is a serious psychological twist. These are sick, sick people.

This is an issue of violence, control, power and abuse. This is assualt.It is trauma committed on the physical and mental person of an underaged victim. Just as domestic violence starts with a slap, and over time , unless interrupted , escalates to a beating, so , with this particular issue does the behaviour escalate from thinking, looking, talking, and photosharing to to brushing up against the children, then a casual touch, then a less casual touch....it is an almost irresistable urge on their part.

(read Dalhmers case history for an interesting study of escalating levels of violence and sexual urge). They are predators. They seek prey. It is who they are. It is the defining characteristic of their very identity.

The original post reported an individual who writes and talks about his interest in " LGs " little girls ages 3-11. Thats 3-11.
While he himself may not be actively molesting them he is, by my states definition, stalking them. He gives "helpful hints" to others on how to pursue their prey. He encourages other deviants in their behaviour. He educates and facilitates others in the commission of pedophillic acts.

We hold people responsible for intent already in our legal system: intent is in fact considered an important aspect of establishing guilt, as I understand it.
Think about it "conspiracy to commit" "aiding and abbetting the commission of" &"accessory prior to the fact" --these are activities which our legal system feels merit criminal status and prosecution.

I really, truly do understand what you are saying analcon--and others--about the dangerous path of prosecuting thought crime---but, heres the thing, as I see it, and gawd help me for quoting 'trek in this matter:

"the needs of the many out way the needs of the few,or of the one"

Prosecute ( exile /jail/execute--whatever--thats a different issue) these predators who openly identify themselves as predators seems the only rational choice.

Tell me how to better protect the 50,ooo kids who are sexually abused each year? Check the numbers, and get back to me on this, if youd like.

PWD says all of this so much better than I--I am no wordsmith--but I do know this subject. I have said I admire the higher standards of humanity which Tetsubo would have us follow: but I am hard pragmatic at core.

The safety of the children is the first priority. The rights of the sociopath are not my concern. For those of you who think me grim or harsh, I advise volunteer work in a shelter for victims of sexual violence and abuse.

Again, I ask---would you want this monster around your children? In your park, schoolyard, sunday school classroom? Would you let him Teach? Coach? Babysit? Would you let him lurk in your neighborhood? Really?

After all, hes innocent. All he has done is "talk"............

Varaj
08-18-2007, 04:33 PM
A bunch of bullshit

mollygrue you might sound more intelligent if you don't lie, make shit up and misuse terms. That is the problem both you and pwd have in this thread is you actively lie and make shit up. Your cause may be good but you sound like total idiots with 100% lack of knowledge.

Ancalagon
08-18-2007, 04:45 PM
molly, no amount of horror stories about pedophilia is going to demonstrate that thought always leads to action.

We *know* child abuse is a horrible thing. But that isn't the issue at hand here.

Would I be concerned if that guy was in the neighborhood? Heck yes. And I would hope the police was watching him like hawks. But until he tries to go from words to deeds...

Ancalagon

mollygrue
08-18-2007, 04:50 PM
mollygrue you might sound more intelligent if you don't lie, make shit up and misuse terms. That is the problem both you and pwd have in this thread is you actively lie and make shit up. Your cause may be good but you sound like total idiots with 100% lack of knowledge.
V. i do not know you, you do not know me.

I have no desire to enter into any form of conflict with you.

I have stated my understanding of and respect for others differences of opinions, and have attempted to state my opinions, and share my knowledge on this issue is a polite manner.

I have neither time nor inclination to dredge up the documentation to support my statements, nor will I be drawn into name calling and insults. I attempt to treat others with dignity, courtesy and respect. I would ak the same in return.

How you respond to me, and what you chose to believe are your choice. It does not change facts.

If you have a problem with me personally, please contact me with a message rather than on the public forum.

Varaj
08-18-2007, 04:53 PM
V. i do not know you, you do not know me.

I have no desire to enter into any form of conflict with you.

I have stated my understanding of and respect for others differences of opinions, and have attempted to state my opinions, and share my knowledge on this issue is a polite manner.

I have neither time nor inclination to dredge up the documentation to support my statements, nor will I be drawn into name calling and insults. I attempt to treat others with dignity, courtesy and respect. I would ak the same in return.

How you respond to me, and what you chose to believe are your choice. It does not change facts.

If you have a problem with me personally, please contact me with a message rather than on the public forum.


When you publicly misuse terms to falsely support your position I will call you on it. Your falsehoods in this thread is not dealing with dignity, courtesy and respect. When you start doing so feel free to give me a buzz and I will return the favor. Until then I will treat you how you are treating us, with scorn and disrespect. You lie, you get called on it, you make stuff up you get called on it. You act like a shit you get called on it. Stop doing those and I will treat you like a reasonable adult.