Has Darkfire's moral sense been distorted by Islam?

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Darkfire seems to be a rational, intelligent, educated, civilized man. So his responses in some recent threads, particularly the Mohammed Teddy Bear thread, are rather shocking. He refuses to unequivocally condemn the idea of criminalising the insulting of the Prophet or criminalising insulting religion. He thinks that fact that "stoning" only means twenty blows means the injunction to stone adulterers is ok for Muslims. He refuses to unequivocally condemn the rule that apostates from Islam who speak out against the faith should be killed. He seems to believe that his own moral sense is to be trumpeted by the dictates of Islamic law, so long as that law is "properly interpreted".

So I ask you, has Darkfire's natural moral sense been distorted by his religion.

[Note - Darkfire, if any of the above sentences is a misrepresentation of your position, I apologise. Either through your writing or my reading, I occassionally find it difficult to work out what your position is. But the above is my best understanding right now. Feel free to correct any of my misconceptions and explain your position in this thread.]

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Only two takers so far...

[Freedom Canadian]

I find this question hard to answer without knowing what he believed before converting.

[AZRogue]

I think that, through Islam, Darkfire is faced with a moral position that he wouldn't choose on his own. It was chosen for him by Islam itself and he does his best to rationalize what he can and takes the rest on faith ... because he has no choice. Sooooo, I guess that I believe it has been distorted, yeah.

But I don't know what he believed before, so my observation is based upon a lot of assumptions that could be completely off base. It's why I didn't vote in the first place. But I guess I might as well now that I posted. :)

[Janos]

I believe that people stick to their own internal moral compass regardless of religion and have the option to accept or deny the integrated morality. It can be hard to reconcile the two, and they may not ever be able to do so necessarily, but ultimately I believe they will act true to their inner character.

I think if Darkfire's religion ever endangered someone, his own moral sense/instincts would override his religious beliefs.

[Special K]

I vote Lemon Curry as a food I'll never try. My principles state that Lemon is a flavor that should never be introduced into anything that isn't either a beverage or a fruit-based candy. I feel like Darkfire's religion is probably clouding his judgment on this issue.

Having said that, I think the rest of this thread is pretty irrelevant.

[Darkfire]

:lol:

I was actually tempted to vote but I could see Atticus' reply to whatever vote I put

1) See he agrees he's fucked up
2) See he's a fucked up individual who has found a fucked up religion to follow
3) I mean obviously he's fucked up so he's just in denial
4) Coward! How dare you not choose. Neg rep, neg rep, neg rep

For everyone else though (and yeah this is pretty biased probably)

Before conversion Darkfire:
Barely gave charity (and even then felt that it was too much)
Didn't care about anyone basically (except for immediate family)
Concerned about finding the best paying job
Took drugs
Got getting mind splitting, embaressingly drunk fairly often
Didn't mind petty theft
Fairly frequent day dreams about good looking girls on campus

After conversion:
I give at least a 12th of my net salary to charity every year and I feel happy that I'm helping people out
I've been involved with more community events than ever
I'm delighted that I have a job which allows me to help people
My only remaining addiction is a mild caffeine one
Haven't drunk a drop since conversion
I went door to door two months ago to all the houses around our garage area to see who had dropped the £10 I found
(and this I admit took a fair bit of work) I've gotten to the stage where I can stop any sexually orientated mental meanderings before they progress beyond the realisation that so and so is wearing a shirt skirt etc.

Now I don't know if I'm more moral, but I am certainly happier about how I'm living my life. So make of that what you will.

Edit: Obviously this is far from a complete list and I'm sure some people will claim that I've deliberately left off items. If you feel so inclinded though ask and I swear I'll answer honestly.

[The Winslow]

(and this I admit took a fair bit of work) I've gotten to the stage where I can stop any sexually orientated mental meanderings before they progress beyond the realisation that so and so is wearing a shirt skirt etc.

I thought Islam taught that men can't be held responsible for their sexual urges because they're just like hungry cats, unreasoning animals who'll just jump on any "exposed meat" they find.

That's how Imams rationalize overbearing dress codes.

[Atticus_of_Amber]

:lol:

I was actually tempted to vote but I could see Atticus' reply to whatever vote I put

1) See he agrees he's fucked up
2) See he's a fucked up individual who has found a fucked up religion to follow
3) I mean obviously he's fucked up so he's just in denial
4) Coward! How dare you not choose. Neg rep, neg rep, neg rep

For everyone else though (and yeah this is pretty biased probably)

Before conversion Darkfire:
Barely gave charity (and even then felt that it was too much)
Didn't care about anyone basically (except for immediate family)
Concerned about finding the best paying job
Took drugs
Got getting mind splitting, embaressingly drunk fairly often
Didn't mind petty theft
Fairly frequent day dreams about good looking girls on campus

After conversion:
I give at least a 12th of my net salary to charity every year and I feel happy that I'm helping people out
I've been involved with more community events than ever
I'm delighted that I have a job which allows me to help people
My only remaining addiction is a mild caffeine one
Haven't drunk a drop since conversion
I went door to door two months ago to all the houses around our garage area to see who had dropped the £10 I found
(and this I admit took a fair bit of work) I've gotten to the stage where I can stop any sexually orientated mental meanderings before they progress beyond the realisation that so and so is wearing a shirt skirt etc.

Now I don't know if I'm more moral, but I am certainly happier about how I'm living my life. So make of that what you will.

Edit: Obviously this is far from a complete list and I'm sure some people will claim that I've deliberately left off items. If you feel so inclined though ask and I swear I'll answer honestly.

And there's a great illustration of the two-edged nature of religion folks. If we believe Darkfire (as I'm minded to do), Islam got him off drugs, but made him sexually repressed, made him generous, but made him a little obsessive about it, turned him into a responsible citizen, but disabled him from being able to recognise the inherent evil in Islam's apostasy, adultery and insulting the prophet rules.

[Hastur T. Fannon]

So I ask you, has Darkfire's natural moral sense been distorted by his religion.

I voted "Lemon Curry" because I'm not sure it's possible to know from someone's postings whether they actually believe what they're typing or if they're just parroting the "party line". I find this post (http://www.kaytastrophe.com/vb/showpost.php?p=25757&postcount=164) quite interesting. I suppose the nearest equivalent in my tradition would be Catholic convert who holds themselves to their oath to adhere to Catholic doctrine and moral teachings

Darkfire, can I ask: what would you do if you found your personal morals contradicted your interpretation of a particular area of sharia?

[Eliezer]

I chose, "distorted" but I think a better word is "changed"

What's the point of religion if it doesn't influence your moral view... :confused:

[Ergeheilalt]

What's the point of religion if it doesn't influence your moral view... :confused:

Ding ding. Winnar.

Distort has a negative connotation, but it in and of itself is not negative.

[Janos]

What's the point of religion if it doesn't influence your moral view... :confused:

Afterlife and spiritual salvation?

[Darkfire]

I thought Islam taught that men can't be held responsible for their sexual urges because they're just like hungry cats, unreasoning animals who'll just jump on any "exposed meat" they find.

That's how Imams rationalize overbearing dress codes.

And a large percentage of muslims come from cultures which endorse misogynism on at least a nominal level. Said people should get off the lazy asses and actually go and read up on what Islam has to say about taking responsibilities for one's own actions instead of listening to some sexually repressed imans trying to justify their own thoughts.

(and on a side note said repressed imans should stop trying to be wannabe monks and realise that God meant for them to get married and enjoy the pleasures of sex instead of incorperating their culture's misogysnistic attitudes and believing that sex/women are unclean/objects)

[Darkfire]

Darkfire, can I ask: what would you do if you found your personal morals contradicted your interpretation of a particular area of sharia?

:scratchchin: interesting question.

So lets say I've triple checked the interpretation and I've found no leaway (which is pretty unlikely, but anyway). I guess I'd go with the utter minimum in obeying it.

Do you have a specific example in mind?

[Eliezer]

Afterlife and spiritual salvation?

Hmm, I'm not seeing that... Not unless you invent a religion that says absolutely nothing about right and wrong (or doesn't even teach that there is no right or wrong because that is a teaching on how to look at morality). I suppose you could have a religion that teaches that salvation is simply achieved through a simple ritual (like washing your face in the morning) and nothing further is required. But I don't know if I would call that a religion.

[Edena_of_Neith]

This is a dangerous thread for Kay Tastrophe, because it involves (as the title suggests) that one member of the board is putting down another member. And that put down, is based on religion, which makes the situation worse.

We all know where these threads lead, no?

If I were still an Admin, I'd move this thread over to the Off-Campus Bar, since that is the place for such threads as these IMO.

And you'd all be angry with me, of course, for doing that. Which is why I have not requested to be an Admin once more. Everyone is always angry at the Admins ...

[The Winslow]

I suppose you could have a religion that teaches that salvation is simply achieved through a simple ritual (like washing your face in the morning) and nothing further is required. But I don't know if I would call that a religion.

I always had the feeling that, in some Christian Puritan sects, salvation is simply achieved through the simple ritual of declaring "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior" -- you can then go on killing puppies and bathing in baby blood all day long, you're saved. While someone leading a most virtuous life but not formally accepting Jesus as their personal savior (because of other religious beliefs or of atheism) is going to be forever damned to Hell.

[Eliezer]

I always had the feeling that, in some Christian Puritan sects, salvation is simply achieved through the simple ritual of declaring "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior" -- you can then go on killing puppies and bathing in baby blood all day long, you're saved. While someone leading a most virtuous life but not formally accepting Jesus as their personal savior (because of other religious beliefs or of atheism) is going to be forever damned to Hell.

I wouldn't call them Puritan, since the Puritans were pretty big on morality and observances. At least one man was even excommunicated after his wife complained he wasn't having sex with her.

Everything you thought about puritan sex is wrong... (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/11/22/ED209031.DTL)

But yes, otherwise you are correct. I would hesitate to call that "religion" unless it makes some attempt to delineate appropriate and inappropriate behavior.

[Xavier Lang]

And you'd all be angry with me, of course, for doing that. Which is why I have not requested to be an Admin once more. Everyone is always angry at the Admins ...

I can honesty say I've never been angry with you Edena.

[Eliezer]

This is a dangerous thread for Kay Tastrophe, because it involves (as the title suggests) that one member of the board is putting down another member. And that put down, is based on religion, which makes the situation worse.

We all know where these threads lead, no?

If I were still an Admin, I'd move this thread over to the Off-Campus Bar, since that is the place for such threads as these IMO.

And you'd all be angry with me, of course, for doing that. Which is why I have not requested to be an Admin once more. Everyone is always angry at the Admins ...

Oh come on, I've been the most vocal "hate upon darkfire and his wrong-minded views" person on this board and I've been downright civil in this discussion. :D

[Hastur T. Fannon]

Do you have a specific example in mind?

No, it was just a hypothetical. It was the answer I was expecting though