Starting to feel slightly picked on.

[Bagpuss]

Just blowing off steam....

First of only books allowed PHB, PHB II, DMG, Complete series but nothing from Complete Mage onwards.

Okay so I build a Knight character using PHBII and the shield feats from that, for a laugh I max out intimidate and get Intimidating Strike, and Persuasive since I'm trying to play a high charisma, sword and board type character. Far from optimal, but interesting.

I originally wanted to be about controlling the battlefield, with a Flail and shield, and combat reflexes and improved trip.

But he said tripping and particularly taking the AoO on them getting up would be against the Knights code so cost me a daily use of the Knight's Challenge. Not in the PHBII but his game, his interpretation of the code, I decide okay I'll try and go sword and board. Hence the change to the much less optimal Intimidating Strike.

So I go to use Intimidating Strike on a hydra.

DM: Can't do that.
Me: Why?
DM: Only has an Int of 2 so Animal intelligence.
Me: Right, but Intimidate works on animals. It's only zombies and constructs and other Int - creatures it doesn't work on.
DM: We'll discuss it after game.
Me: Okay

So after game he checks and sure enough I'm right, but he decides he is still going to restrict Intimidate on animals to just the combat use. I say fair enough.

Next he decides to allow the MIC, great because it's the only real book with magic items post PHBII so it has some Knight specific stuff in I could use. He'll allow stuff on a case by case basis.

After allowing a few things, he changes his mind an bans the whole book the next session. :(

At the same session another player ask me if I feel a bit underpowered.

I think well lets see, since the hydra the only creatures we've face that I could use Fighting Challenge or Test of Mettle on are arcane casters or dragons, so they have area effect attacks that ignore the added AC I have as a Knight with a shield and shield block (all the melee monsters have been too low a CR).

I do 1d6+1 base damage with my +1 scimitar. The Rogue/Fighter/Barbarian seems to be doing significant damage with his double sword. The Monk/Druid does a nice 2d6+8 flurry with his quarterstaff (buffed up). The Paladin can smite and has Frosty Bastard sword the DM gave out last session. The wizard can empower his fireballs, and the other druid has a bear, and his magic.

You know I do feel a little underpowered. Still I'm planning on taking Improved Shield Bash and Agile Shield fighter by 9th so I'll be doing a nice 2d6+1 with my off-hand soon, so I'll catch up a bit then.

DM: There is no way I'm letting spiked and bashing stack to be 3 sizes bigger.

Me: But it's in the PHB and FAQ, besides, it works out as +1d6 for a +1 enhancement, which is pretty much on a par with other enhancements, and not being elemental damage it doesn't by pass all DR.

DM: But you get to have an AC bonus as well.

Me: Which I'm paying three feats to keep, and use effectively. You know for a little extra cash (rather than feats) a fighter could just get an animated shield and achieve the same thing. Feats tend to be worth more than cash since they are a more limited resource.

DM: Nope they don't stack. If you have both you have a weapon that does 1d6 piercing or 1d8+1 bludgeoning/magic. You choose which at the time.

Me: Okay well how do I go about enhancing the shield if I get flaming does it effect both or do I have to buy it for each individually.

DM: A shield can't be enhanced with weapon enhancements it is only armour or shield ones. You can still do the spikes though....

I was about to ask if a normal shield isn't a weapon as well, why does it appear on the martial weapon table, and would he mind if I hit him with one, but I gave up....

Oh he also doesn't allow retraining (even though it's in the PHBII) so while I built the characters early feats to get a decent shield bash, now he won't let me retrain Shield Specialization to do something else.

I love how whenever he moves the goal posts it's my character that suffers.

Other than that it is an really good campaign and his a fun DM. And obviously your seeing one side of things here. I can see why he wants to keep a tight control on the game the other players can meet out some pretty heavy damage. And admittedly my AC is pretty good about 27 (at 8th level), so his melee characters (because they aren't even CR 6) can never hit me, but then I can't use Challenge on them.

Just needed to vent I'll be fine later.

[PWD]

Tell the assmunch to fuck himself. And when he gets un-fucked, you'll be happy to join his game again.

[Atropine Mama]

I don't understand the specifics of the gamer speak, but he's singling out your character and making it weak, right? Can you outright ask him why he's doing this?

You might want to stop banging his wife on the weekends while he considers this.

[Bagpuss]

I think he's singling me out because I'm new (new character that is) the others are already broken in his eyes but he's allowed their excesses in the past. So now he's trying to stop any possible excesses of mine before they happen.

[PWD]

That's just fucking lame.

Let the characters feel roughly equivalent (don't even get me started on enforced equivalency), and munge things on the back end to control the game.

Weak-ass DMing. If you had prior things go wrong you don't like, then reboot. Don't change the landscape mid-campaign and apply restrictions only to new people.

[Kwalish Kid]

Kill the character.

Seriously. Just go for the heroic death and then make up a different character with all the rules that the GM does allow.

Don't talk about it or comment on it. Just put the character in a position where they get killed. (With a knight, it shouldn't be hard, just call out the area attack people.)

[TiQuinn]

I read that first post and I just see all the soul and fun being sucked out of the game like a giant vacuum cleaner.

[Bones]

What a jackass, I hate when a DM does shit like that.

[Vermicious Knid]

Kill the character.

Seriously. Just go for the heroic death and then make up a different character with all the rules that the GM does allow.

Don't talk about it or comment on it. Just put the character in a position where they get killed. (With a knight, it shouldn't be hard, just call out the area attack people.)

Seconded. For best mileage take an important NPC out with you, preferably one with zero combat ability (mayor, princess, that sort of thing). Alternatively, offer to schlep the unsorted party treasure/communal resources, then fall in a bottomless pit/vat of acid/volcano.

[Ancalagon]

You want to be carefull though - some "killing the chracter" moves end up being TPK inducing.

"we can't leave the knight to face the giant ultrabad alone!" kinda deal.

[Janos]

Seconded. For best mileage take an important NPC out with you, preferably one with zero combat ability (mayor, princess, that sort of thing). Alternatively, offer to schlep the unsorted party treasure/communal resources, then fall in a bottomless pit/vat of acid/volcano.

I wouldn't fuck with the campaign itself, but I would drop the character if you feel like he's genuinely just worried about abuse. Some DMs are just like that, and there is no changing their mind. Personally, I would drop the campaign if it was bugging me as much as it sounds like it is bugging you. I dislike micro-managing rules DMs without a good understanding of the rules themselves.

If he's worried about your abuse specifically, I'd say you should make a PHB only powerhouse (CoDzilla always works) and demonstrate clearly what you could be doing. Its dickish, but he's already making it personal.

[Trainz]

What an assmuncher.

It did happen IMCs that some players would develop an ass-kicking combo. I'd let them have it, sometimes sighing, and rule it out AT THE NEXT CAMPAIGN some months down the line.

My current DM was doing a lot to undermine my rogue, so mid-campaign I said fine, and decided to roll out the most munchkiny paladin possible. You know, pearls of power, extra spell, wraith strike, and two hander. That dude would have been ridiculously strong (and ultimately campaign destroying). He said "Wait... no I won't permit that". I said "Well, you started it". He wisened up, I went back to my rogue, and things were much better.

But in your case, it seems like he's got it in for you. Just retire your PC and produce the most munchkiny thing within the basic rules.

Maybe a good combo is 2 levels of paladin, 2 of monk, and the rest in sorceror with practiced spellcaster and that feat that allows your Cha for most of your Will saves, and a few other feats (the one that synergises Monk and Sorc). Your AC and saves will be sky high, and if you focus on no-save spells (orbs, scorching ray...) you'll own the field.

[Harry]

Two characters I've played in the last few years were munchkiny as hell, and broken when looked at on paper. But both DMs allowed them, because they trusted me not to abuse them. And I didn't. Hell, with my last Cleric I held back from doing everything I knew he could do until he was about level 8. Shocked the hell out of the other players when I finally "ran the board" of bad guys in a battle where they were all down and out. They didn't know the character could do it.

[Limper]

Sounds like crap I used to put up with... walk away man.

[Limper]

Two characters I've played in the last few years were munchkiny as hell, and broken when looked at on paper. But both DMs allowed them, because they trusted me not to abuse them. And I didn't. Hell, with my last Cleric I held back from doing everything I knew he could do until he was about level 8. Shocked the hell out of the other players when I finally "ran the board" of bad guys in a battle where they were all down and out. They didn't know the character could do it.

I LOVE doing that. The looks of awe and surprise are priceless.

[doc]

Asshole violates one of my game breaking rules, say's one rule or book is ok then changes his mind to fuck the player. Walk away, no bang his wife THEN walk away

[Harry]

I LOVE doing that. The looks of awe and surprise are priceless.

Travel Domain, ftw.

[Limper]

Travel Domain, ftw.

Freedom of Movement is damn nice.

[Janos]

I LOVE doing that. The looks of awe and surprise are priceless.

Ditto, those moments make gaming worth it.

[Limper]

Ditto, those moments make gaming worth it.

The best run I had was in 2nd edition... we were about level 15 when I decided to open up and let them know where the power in the group really lay.

Up till then I was happy go lucky and ineffective.

[Harry]

Up till then I was happy go lucky and ineffective.

That describes my Cleric. I modeled him largely on Sean Connery's Professor Jones.

[Limper]

That describes my Cleric. I modeled him largely on Sean Connery's Professor Jones.

Mine was based on no one in particular. I just played them like they enjoyed everything and never complained, always looked on the bright side and was quite the criminal mastermind on the side (only the DM knew what I could do and he thought it was funny that the party didn't).

[doc]

Hobbit wit 19 Dex with a Girdle of Storm Giant Strength, +5 short sward, +4 ring of pertection and ring of free action

[Bagpuss]

Kill the character.

Seriously. Just go for the heroic death and then make up a different character with all the rules that the GM does allow.


No thanks, I've only just got back to similar levels as the rest of the party because new characters (either from deciding not to be raised or changing character) start about level behind the average (worked out on XP).

Besides I'm really enjoying the character. A Lawful Neutral Knight of St. Cuthbert, with maxed out Intimidate, Persuasive and 5 ranks in bluff (just the Synergy bonus on Intimidate). Roleplay side he's great, and that side I have great fun with the GM in question.

I mean it's not like he's totally weak, defense wise at least AC wise he's a god among men. With a +2 heavy shield and +1 Full plate, Shield Specialization, Deflection+1, Natural Armour +1 my AC is 27, 28 verse one opponent. Then with Intimidating Strike as an opening move it's effective 30 against my chose victim. More if I use Combat Expertise.

Of course now I get hit with every area effect spell you can imagine.... Unfortunately my saves aren't great, and Reflex Save is just plain dire. I'm thinking of investing in a Ring of Counterspells and get fireball in it.

Nah, it's not as bad as I make out in my first post I just needed to let off some steam.

[Bagpuss]

The continuing saga....

So anyway before I even started this character I ask the DM if he would allow the Leadership feat, I expressed an interest in running a stronghold building type character, someone with a high charisma but a fighter type.

He asked me to give a sample of the cohort I'd like and what sort of followers so I did, he then suggested some changes as he didn't like the idea of a Cleric casting Enlarge Person on my knight at the start of combat. Bulwark of defense and two ranks of threaten area is pretty cool. I'd gone for a Cleric since my Knight was a follower of St. Cuthbert and the party lacked a cleric, depending on one Druid to do all the healing (not good).

He then said he was okay with it and it was going to be my 6th level feat choice. Just before the start of the game we gained another player, who was also playing a druid. So I decided to put off getting Leadership as we now had 6 PCs and two animal companions in the party. I figured I'll get Leadership later and maybe a intelligent mount since we seemed to be okay on healing now.

Anyway last week we levelled to 9th and since we had just been creamed by ghosts with Strength and Charisma drain (3 characters had dropped to zombie and fungus level charisma scores, I had dropped from 16 to 10). The next fight my Strength was down to 10 from 20, lose one more Strength and I would be unable to move in my full plate.

We had already used all our lesser restorations, (all druid and paladin spells used), so I figured we seriously needed a cleric in this party, so I took Leadership on levelling up. I had not attracted the cohort and asked the party what they thought would be best, everyone though a cleric.

So I send the stat sheet to the DM. I'd previously worked on all the followers and provided stat blocks from them and what their duties might be, to check stuff by him ahead of taking the feat. So this has been planned for months, and I'd being doing the prep since before the campaign started to make sure he was okay with it.

Between sessions on our groups board we get....

"I think that the Leadership feat is problematic. Please pick another feat."

Seriously I've now got a character that is melee based that put a 16 into fucking Charisma for fuck all reason. :mad:

Still with Shield Ally it's shouldn't be too hard to get myself killed off. :rolleyes:

[GhostWolf69]

Concerning the "killing self off" action:

We had a fella playing a Bard in our campaign (I'm the DM) and for one reason or another he gets tired of his Character... presumably singing songs of heroism finally got to his nerves and he wanted soemting that could really put some hurt on people instead.

Goes to show, trying to die is not that easy.

He started to blindly charge everything that moved, opened every door and every chest contradictory to Rogue advice and ran ahead of the party often ending up in the middle of an encounter with his friends two or three rounds away.

Suprisingly enough it took him almost an entire adventure to die... and funnily enough we had a ball doing it. I laughed constantly at his bravado/stupidity and his co-players were in agony from having to fight hordes of monsters without resting and planning in between... It reached that point where he started to say stuff like: "I bet this character suck so bad, that it won't even be able to die properly!"

Anyway... finally an Demon lady with a flaming bow scewerd him on tre arrows straight... and he died singing... like a bard should.

/wolf

[Xavier Lang]

Bagpuss - Walk away, from the character at least. Every post has been about you trying to work something out with the GM and the GM not working anything out with you. The GM isn't letting you go back and change things, which is absurd because in D&D you have to plan things levels in advance to get the feats set up correctly.

[Dr. Cherry Gunn]

Tell the assmunch to fuck himself. And when he gets un-fucked, you'll be happy to join his game again.

Hey PWD, aren't you the same guy that's telling people not to knock 4e core because DMs should make their game whatever they want?

If you look back at this thread, maybe you can understand why a lot of people think "what's core" is very important. :)

[Creamsteak]

Bagpuss, might I suggest asking the DM what his comfort zone is? It sounds like he doesn't understand everything in the PHB2 and such, but is still allowing a lot of it. I know a lot of DMs look at a book, go "hey that's cool" about one or two things, and then decide to allow the content whole-cloth without REALLY examining every little bit.

[Bagpuss]

He doesn't have a problem with the PHB2 stuff, it's the PHB and DMG stuff that I've been house ruled against on.

Admittedly this is his first 3rd Ed campaign (he is however an experienced DM and player of at least a decade), but we have been playing it since 1st level and there are several other 3rd Ed games that he is playing in. He's actually very good at balancing encounters and most of the general job of DM'ing.

[Bagpuss]

Oh he also house ruled that after attacking with Greater Invisibility, you become visible but with concealment 20% miss chance (you can spend a standard action to go invisible again).

I can kind of agree with that Greater Invisibility complete negates many monsters offence completely, while at the same allowing a PCs to attack with virtual impunity. It also presents problems with tracking movement on the battle mat.

Although I would have made it 50% miss chance, otherwise the lower level Displacement is a better spell.

[Goblin Girl]

This is the part where I'd be saying something like "Hey! I've been thinking of DMing a campaign myself! If you get tired of the load, I'll be happy to take over." Either that, or I'd bow out of the game.

[Vermicious Knid]

Hey PWD, aren't you the same guy that's telling people not to knock 4e core because DMs should make their game whatever they want?

If you look back at this thread, maybe you can understand why a lot of people think "what's core" is very important. :)


This doesn't seem to be a core/non-core issue. It sounds like a douchebaggery issue. I don't think game design can fix that one.

[Bagpuss]

This is the part where I'd be saying something like "Hey! I've been thinking of DMing a campaign myself! If you get tired of the load, I'll be happy to take over." Either that, or I'd bow out of the game.

Oh I do already run Savage Tide for this group, and another DM is running Age of Worms, we tend to alternate between us.

[Varaj]

The only suggestion I have is start this as a thread on EN World and take bets on how long it takes before it gets shut down.

[The Winslow]

My suggestion is to sneak to his PC and replace his browser's start page by the site Bella found.

[GhostWolf69]

... here's my tip-of-the-day:

You sneak a spoon full of drycleaning fluid into the DM's Yoo-Hoo, and start screaming:

I GUESS YOU MISSED YOUR SAVING THROW ON THAT ONE, MR. TEN-BY-TEN STONE CORRIDOR!!!

Honestly... walk away...

/wolf

[Bagpuss]

After an impassioned plea, pointing out the whole point of playing this character was to get Leadership, he is letting me take the feat. See he's not that bad.

[Ancalagon]

did you have to get down on your knees too? :P

[Brynja]

IFYWHMAITYD

[Bagpuss]

did you have to get down on your knees too? :P

No but I did have to have another player (who also GMs) accuse me of bullying the DM, and always challenging his authority. Oh the plus side two other players agreed with me.

[GhostWolf69]

No but I did have to have another player (who also GMs) accuse me of bullying the DM, and always challenging his authority. Oh the plus side two other players agreed with me.

Hmmm... just made me realise that we are in fact only hearing one side of this little episode. It would be interesting to hear others. If the others in your group also feel like you are a pain and that you argue too much with the DM... then maybe you are, and maybe he's punishing you by messing with your character.

It's not very grown up of him to do that ofcourse, but that goes for being a cry-baby as well.

I'm one of those old-timers who've DM'd since mid 80's, and I can tell from experience that some people will get under my skin in no time. I know I should be open about it, I know I should adress the whole group and discuss the problems in general terms, instead of pinpointing it to this one guy, but God help me... sometimes you 're just dealing with a fucking moron, who's not worth your time of day.

When I was younger, chanses were pretty good I'd start messing with this bloke and try to make him leave the group by being an ass towards him.

Now I'm older, I take the guy to the side, tell him this isn't gonna fly and ask him to leave the group.

I'm too old to try to kiss-and-make-up or settle for half-ass-measures and compromises.

Maybe... just maybe... there is something like that going on here. But I have no clue, I don't know any of you... or maybe I'm just paranoid enough to see it?

/wolf

[Bagpuss]

Hmmm... just made me realise that we are in fact only hearing one side of this little episode.

Yeah, I did remind folks that at the end of my first post.

It would be interesting to hear others. If the others in your group also feel like you are a pain and that you argue too much with the DM.

In this case two have come out on my side, one has been very vocal saying that I'm challenging the DM's authority, another two have been pretty quiet, and the DM has decided to allow me leadership, after I made my case.

I think this one player is actually more bothered than the DM.

then maybe you are, and maybe he's punishing you by messing with your character.

No, I genuinely believe he is concerned about things like, game balance, and DM workload rather than punishing me in particular.

[Ancalagon]

The thing with a cleric is... how effective they are is *hugely* dependent on how they are played. Of course, this is true of all classes, but it seems particularly dramatic. You can have a self effacing defensive/healing cleric that people seem to almost forget is there, OR you can have an agressive war-priest powerhouse. As a DM, having a player controlled cleric NPC is a bit worrisome, because I don't know what to expect.

Incidentally, as a player I often found NPC clerics to be annoying because of them not being played to their full potential - my first (and best developed) character in 3rd ed was a cleric of St-Cuthbert.

[Bagpuss]

Here's the final version of the Cohort Cleric I'll be getting (although I might have levelled up by the time I attract him since we are in a dungeon at the moment, so he would be a level higher).