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Atticus_of_Amber
10-03-2007, 01:38 AM
Even when he goes to a conference full of atheists, most of whom came to the conference to get his autograph (among others'), Sam Harris can't resist saying something that will piss off half the room.

From here (http://richarddawkins.net/article,1702,The-Problem-with-Atheism,Sam-Harris).

The Problem with Atheism
by Sam Harris
Reposted from: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2007/10/the_problem_with_atheism.html

(This is an edited transcript of a talk given at the Atheist Alliance conference in Washington D.C. on September 28th, 2007)

To begin, I'd like to take a moment to acknowledge just how strange it is that a meeting like this is even necessary. The year is 2007, and we have all taken time out of our busy lives, and many of us have traveled considerable distance, so that we can strategize about how best to live in a world in which most people believe in an imaginary God. America is now a nation of 300 million people, wielding more influence than any people in human history, and yet this influence is being steadily corrupted, and is surely waning, because 240 million of these people apparently believe that Jesus will return someday and orchestrate the end of the world with his magic powers.

Of course, we may well wonder whether as many people believe these things as say they do. I know that Christopher [Hitchens] and Richard [Dawkins] are rather optimistic that our opinion polls are out of register with what people actually believe in the privacy of their own minds. But there is no question that most of our neighbors reliably profess that they believe these things, and such professions themselves have had a disastrous affect on our political discourse, on our public policy, on the teaching of science, and on our reputation in the world. And even if only a third or a quarter of our neighbors believe what most profess, it seems to me that we still have a problem worth worrying about.

Now, it is not often that I find myself in a room full of people who are more or less guaranteed to agree with me on the subject of religion. In thinking about what I could say to you all tonight, it seemed to me that I have a choice between throwing red meat to the lions of atheism or moving the conversation into areas where we actually might not agree. I've decided, at some risk to your mood, to take the second approach and to say a few things that might prove controversial in this context.

Given the absence of evidence for God, and the stupidity and suffering that still thrives under the mantle of religion, declaring oneself an "atheist" would seem the only appropriate response. And it is the stance that many of us have proudly and publicly adopted. Tonight, I'd like to try to make the case, that our use of this label is a mistake—and a mistake of some consequence.

My concern with the use of the term "atheism" is both philosophical and strategic. I'm speaking from a somewhat unusual and perhaps paradoxical position because, while I am now one of the public voices of atheism, I never thought of myself as an atheist before being inducted to speak as one. I didn't even use the term in The End of Faith, which remains my most substantial criticism of religion. And, as I argued briefly in Letter to a Christian Nation, I think that "atheist" is a term that we do not need, in the same way that we don't need a word for someone who rejects astrology. We simply do not call people "non-astrologers." All we need are words like "reason" and "evidence" and "common sense" and "bullshit" to put astrologers in their place, and so it could be with religion.

If the comparison with astrology seems too facile, consider the problem of racism. Racism was about as intractable a social problem as we have ever had in this country. We are talking about deeply held convictions. I'm sure you have all seen the photos of lynchings in the first half of the 20th century—where seemingly whole towns in the South, thousands of men, women and children—bankers, lawyers, doctors, teachers, church elders, newspaper editors, policemen, even the occasional Senator and Congressman—turned out as though for a carnival to watch some young man or woman be tortured to death and then strung up on a tree or lamppost for all to see.

Seeing the pictures of these people in their Sunday best, having arranged themselves for a postcard photo under a dangling, and lacerated, and often partially cremated person, is one thing, but realize that these genteel people, who were otherwise quite normal, we must presume—though unfailing religious—often took souvenirs of the body home to show their friends—teeth, ears, fingers, knee caps, internal organs—and sometimes displayed them at their places of business.

Of course, I'm not saying that racism is no longer a problem in this country, but anyone who thinks that the problem is as bad as it ever was has simply forgotten, or has never learned, how bad, in fact, it was.

So, we can now ask, how have people of good will and common sense gone about combating racism? There was a civil rights movement, of course. The KKK was gradually battered to the fringes of society. There have been important and, I think, irrevocable changes in the way we talk about race—our major newspapers no longer publish flagrantly racist articles and editorials as they did less than a century ago—but, ask yourself, how many people have had to identify themselves as "non-racists" to participate in this process? Is there a "non-racist alliance" somewhere for me to join?

Attaching a label to something carries real liabilities, especially if the thing you are naming isn't really a thing at all. And atheism, I would argue, is not a thing. It is not a philosophy, just as "non-racism" is not one. Atheism is not a worldview—and yet most people imagine it to be one and attack it as such. We who do not believe in God are collaborating in this misunderstanding by consenting to be named and by even naming ourselves.

Another problem is that in accepting a label, particularly the label of "atheist," it seems to me that we are consenting to be viewed as a cranky sub-culture. We are consenting to be viewed as a marginal interest group that meets in hotel ballrooms. I'm not saying that meetings like this aren't important. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was important. But I am saying that as a matter of philosophy we are guilty of confusion, and as a matter of strategy, we have walked into a trap. It is a trap that has been, in many cases, deliberately set for us. And we have jumped into it with both feet.

While it is an honor to find myself continually assailed with Dan [Dennett], Richard [Dawkins], and Christopher [Hitchens] as though we were a single person with four heads, this whole notion of the "new atheists" or "militant atheists" has been used to keep our criticism of religion at arm's length, and has allowed people to dismiss our arguments without meeting the burden of actually answering them. And while our books have gotten a fair amount of notice, I think this whole conversation about the conflict between faith and reason, and religion and science, has been, and will continue to be, successfully marginalized under the banner of atheism.

So, let me make my somewhat seditious proposal explicit: We should not call ourselves "atheists." We should not call ourselves "secularists." We should not call ourselves "humanists," or "secular humanists," or "naturalists," or "skeptics," or "anti-theists," or "rationalists," or "freethinkers," or "brights." We should not call ourselves anything. We should go under the radar—for the rest of our lives. And while there, we should be decent, responsible people who destroy bad ideas wherever we find them.

Now, it just so happens that religion has more than its fair share of bad ideas. And it remains the only system of thought, where the process of maintaining bad ideas in perpetual immunity from criticism is considered a sacred act. This is the act of faith. And I remain convinced that religious faith is one of the most perverse misuses of intelligence we have ever devised. So we will, inevitably, continue to criticize religious thinking. But we should not define ourselves and name ourselves in opposition to such thinking.

So what does this all mean in practical terms, apart from Margaret Downey having to change her letterhead? Well, rather than declare ourselves "atheists" in opposition to all religion, I think we should do nothing more than advocate reason and intellectual honesty—and where this advocacy causes us to collide with religion, as it inevitably will, we should observe that the points of impact are always with specific religious beliefs—not with religion in general. There is no religion in general.

The problem is that the concept of atheism imposes upon us a false burden of remaining fixated on people's beliefs about God and remaining even-handed in our treatment of religion. But we shouldn't be fixated, and we shouldn't be even-handed. In fact, we should be quick to point out the differences among religions, for two reasons:

First, these differences make all religions look contingent, and therefore silly. Consider the unique features of Mormonism, which may have some relevance in the next Presidential election. Mormonism, it seems to me, is—objectively—just a little more idiotic than Christianity is. It has to be: because it is Christianity plus some very stupid ideas. For instance, the Mormons think Jesus is going to return to earth and administer his Thousand years of Peace, at least part of the time, from the state of Missouri. Why does this make Mormonism less likely to be true than Christianity? Because whatever probability you assign to Jesus' coming back, you have to assign a lesser probability to his coming back and keeping a summer home in Jackson County, Missouri. If Mitt Romney wants to be the next President of the United States, he should be made to feel the burden of our incredulity. We can make common cause with our Christian brothers and sisters on this point. Just what does the man believe? The world should know. And it is almost guaranteed to be embarrassing even to most people who believe in the biblical God.

The second reason to be attentive to the differences among the world's religions is that these differences are actually a matter of life and death. There are very few of us who lie awake at night worrying about the Amish. This is not an accident. While I have no doubt that the Amish are mistreating their children, by not educating them adequately, they are not likely to hijack aircraft and fly them into buildings. But consider how we, as atheists, tend to talk about Islam. Christians often complain that atheists, and the secular world generally, balance every criticism of Muslim extremism with a mention of Christian extremism. The usual approach is to say that they have their jihadists, and we have people who kill abortion doctors. Our Christian neighbors, even the craziest of them, are right to be outraged by this pretense of even-handedness, because the truth is that Islam is quite a bit scarier and more culpable for needless human misery, than Christianity has been for a very, very long time. And the world must wake up to this fact. Muslims themselves must wake up to this fact. And they can.

You might remember that Thomas Friedman recently wrote an op-ed from Iraq, reporting that some Sunni militias are now fighting jihadists alongside American troops. When Friedman asked one Sunni militant why he was doing this, he said that he had recently watched a member of al-Qaeda decapitate an 8-year-old girl. This persuaded him that the American Crusader forces were the lesser of two evils.

Okay, so even some Sunni militants can discern the boundary between ordinary crazy Islam, and the utterly crazy, once it is drawn in the spilled blood of little girls. This is a basis for hope, of sorts. But we have to be honest—unremittingly honest—about what is on the other side of that line. This is what we and the rest of the civilized, and the semi-civilized world, are up against: utter religious lunacy and barbarism in the name of Islam—with, I'm unhappy to say, some mainstream theology to back it up.

To be even-handed when talking about the problem of Islam is to misconstrue the problem. The refrain, "all religions have their extremists," is bullshit—and it is putting the West to sleep. All religions don't have these extremists. Some religions have never had these extremists. And in the Muslim world, support for extremism is not extreme in the sense of being rare. A recent poll showed that about a third of young British Muslims want to live under sharia law and believe that apostates should be killed for leaving the faith. These are British Muslims. Sixty-eight percent of British Muslims feel that their neighbors who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted, and seventy-eight percent think that the Danish cartoonists should be brought to justice. These people don't have a clue about what constitutes a civil society. Reports of this kind coming out of the Muslim communities living in the West should worry us, before anything else about religion worries us.

Atheism is too blunt an instrument to use at moments like this. It's as though we have a landscape of human ignorance and bewilderment—with peaks and valleys and local attractors—and the concept of atheism causes us to fixate one part of this landscape, the part related to theistic religion, and then just flattens it. Because to be consistent as atheists we must oppose, or seem to oppose, all faith claims equally. This is a waste of precious time and energy, and it squanders the trust of people who would otherwise agree with us on specific issues.

I'm not at all suggesting that we leave people's core religious beliefs, or faith itself, unscathed—I'm still the kind of person who writes articles with rather sweeping titles like "Science must destroy religion"—but it seems to me that we should never lose sight of useful and important distinctions.

Another problem with calling ourselves "atheists" is that every religious person thinks he has a knockdown argument against atheism. We've all heard these arguments, and we are going to keep hearing them as long as we insist upon calling ourselves "atheists. Arguments like: atheists can't prove that God doesn't exist; atheists are claiming to know there is no God, and this is the most arrogant claim of all. As Rick Warren put it, when he and I debated for Newsweek—a reasonable man like himself "doesn't have enough faith to be an atheist." The idea that the universe could arise without a creator is, on his account, the most extravagant faith claim of all.

Of course, as an argument for the truth of any specific religious doctrine, this is a travesty. And we all know what to do in this situation: We have Russell's teapot, and thousands of dead gods, and now a flying spaghetti monster, the nonexistence of which also cannot be proven, and yet belief in these things is acknowledged to be ridiculous by everyone. The problem is, we have to keep having this same argument, over and over again, and the argument is being generated to a significant degree, if not entirely, over our use of the term "atheism."

So too with the "greatest crimes of the 20th century" argument. How many times are we going to have to counter the charge that Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot represent the endgame of atheism? I've got news for you, this meme is not going away. I argued against it in The End of Faith, and it was immediately thrown back at me in reviews of the book as though I had never mentioned it. So I tackled it again in the afterword to the paperback edition of The End of Faith; but this had no effect whatsoever; so at the risk of boring everyone, I brought it up again in Letter to a Christian Nation; and Richard did the same in The God Delusion; and Christopher took a mighty swing at it in God is Not Great. I can assure you that this bogus argument will be with us for as long as people label themselves "atheists." And it really convinces religious people. It convinces moderates and liberals. It even convinces the occasional atheist.

Why should we fall into this trap? Why should we stand obediently in the space provided, in the space carved out by the conceptual scheme of theistic religion? It's as though, before the debate even begins, our opponents draw the chalk-outline of a dead man on the sidewalk, and we just walk up and lie down in it.

Instead of doing this, consider what would happen if we simply used words like "reason" and "evidence." What is the argument against reason? It's true that a few people will bite the bullet here and argue that reason is itself a problem, that the Enlightenment was a failed project, etc. But the truth is that there are very few people, even among religious fundamentalists, who will happily admit to being enemies of reason. In fact, fundamentalists tend to think they are champions of reason and that they have very good reasons for believing in God. Nobody wants to believe things on bad evidence. The desire to know what is actually going on in world is very difficult to argue with. In so far as we represent that desire, we become difficult to argue with. And this desire is not reducible to an interest group. It's not a club or an affiliation, and I think trying to make it one diminishes its power.

The last problem with atheism I'd like to talk about relates to the some of the experiences that lie at the core of many religious traditions, though perhaps not all, and which are testified to, with greater or lesser clarity in the world's "spiritual" and "mystical" literature.
Those of you who have read The End of Faith, know that I don't entirely line up with Dan, Richard, and Christopher in my treatment of these things. So I think I should take a little time to discuss this. While I always use terms like "spiritual" and "mystical" in scare quotes, and take some pains to denude them of metaphysics, the email I receive from my brothers and sisters in arms suggests that many of you find my interest in these topics problematic.

First, let me describe the general phenomenon I'm referring to. Here's what happens, in the generic case: a person, in whatever culture he finds himself, begins to notice that life is difficult. He observes that even in the best of times—no one close to him has died, he's healthy, there are no hostile armies massing in the distance, the fridge is stocked with beer, the weather is just so—even when things are as good as they can be, he notices that at the level of his moment to moment experience, at the level of his attention, he is perpetually on the move, seeking happiness and finding only temporary relief from his search.

We've all noticed this. We seek pleasant sights, and sounds, and tastes, and sensations, and attitudes. We satisfy our intellectual curiosities, and our desire for friendship and romance. We become connoisseurs of art and music and film—but our pleasures are, by their very nature, fleeting. And we can do nothing more than merely reiterate them as often as we are able.

If we enjoy some great professional success, our feelings of accomplishment remain vivid and intoxicating for about an hour, or maybe a day, but then people will begin to ask us "So, what are you going to do next? Don't you have anything else in the pipeline?" Steve Jobs releases the IPhone, and I'm sure it wasn't twenty minutes before someone asked, "when are you going to make this thing smaller?" Notice that very few people at this juncture, no matter what they've accomplished, say, "I'm done. I've met all my goals. Now I'm just going to stay here eat ice cream until I die in front of you."

Even when everything has gone as well as it can go, the search for happiness continues, the effort required to keep doubt and dissatisfaction and boredom at bay continues, moment to moment. If nothing else, the reality of death and the experience of losing loved ones punctures even the most gratifying and well-ordered life.

In this context, certain people have traditionally wondered whether a deeper form of well-being exists. Is there, in other words, a form of happiness that is not contingent upon our merely reiterating our pleasures and successes and avoiding our pains. Is there a form of happiness that is not dependent upon having one's favorite food always available to be placed on one's tongue or having all one's friends and loved ones within arm's reach, or having good books to read, or having something to look forward to on the weekend? Is it possible to be utterly happy before anything happens, before one's desires get gratified, in spite of life's inevitable difficulties, in the very midst of physical pain, old age, disease, and death?

This question, I think, lies at the periphery of everyone's consciousness. We are all, in some sense, living our answer to it—and many of us are living as though the answer is "no." No, there is nothing more profound that repeating one's pleasures and avoiding one's pains; there is nothing more profound that seeking satisfaction, both sensory and intellectual. Many of us seem think that all we can do is just keep our foot on the gas until we run out of road.

But certain people, for whatever reason, are led to suspect that there is more to human experience than this. In fact, many of them are led to suspect this by religion—by the claims of people like the Buddha or Jesus or some other celebrated religious figures. And such a person may begin to practice various disciplines of attention—often called "meditation" or "contemplation"—as a means of examining his moment to moment experience closely enough to see if a deeper basis of well-being is there to be found.

Such a person might even hole himself up in a cave, or in a monastery, for months or years at a time to facilitate this process. Why would somebody do this? Well, it amounts to a very simple experiment. Here's the logic of it: if there is a form of psychological well-being that isn't contingent upon merely repeating one's pleasures, then this happiness should be available even when all the obvious sources of pleasure and satisfaction have been removed. If it exists at all, this happiness should be available to a person who has renounced all her material possessions, and declined to marry her high school sweetheart, and gone off to a cave or to some other spot that would seem profoundly uncongenial to the satisfaction of ordinary desires and aspirations.

One clue as to how daunting most people would find such a project is the fact that solitary confinement—which is essentially what we are talking about—is considered a punishment even inside a prison. Even when cooped up with homicidal maniacs and rapists, most people still prefer the company of others to spending any significant amount of time alone in a box.

And yet, for thousands of years, contemplatives have claimed to find extraordinary depths of psychological well-being while spending vast stretches of time in total isolation. It seems to me that, as rational people, whether we call ourselves "atheists" or not, we have a choice to make in how we view this whole enterprise. Either the contemplative literature is a mere catalogue of religious delusion, deliberate fraud, and psychopathology, or people have been having interesting and even normative experiences under the name of "spirituality" and "mysticism" for millennia.

Now let me just assert, on the basis of my own study and experience, that there is no question in my mind that people have improved their emotional lives, and their self-understanding, and their ethical intuitions, and have even had important insights about the nature of subjectivity itself through a variety of traditional practices like meditation.

Leaving aside all the metaphysics and mythology and mumbo jumbo, what contemplatives and mystics over the millennia claim to have discovered is that there is an alternative to merely living at the mercy of the next neurotic thought that comes careening into consciousness. There is an alternative to being continuously spellbound by the conversation we are having with ourselves.

Most us think that if a person is walking down the street talking to himself—that is, not able to censor himself in front of other people—he's probably mentally ill. But if we talk to ourselves all day long silently—thinking, thinking, thinking, rehearsing prior conversations, thinking about what we said, what we didn't say, what we should have said, jabbering on to ourselves about what we hope is going to happen, what just happened, what almost happened, what should have happened, what may yet happen—but we just know enough to just keep this conversation private, this is perfectly normal. This is perfectly compatible with sanity. Well, this is not what the experience of millions of contemplatives suggests.

Of course, I am by no means denying the importance of thinking. There is no question that linguistic thought is indispensable for us. It is, in large part, what makes us human. It is the fabric of almost all culture and every social relationship. Needless to say, it is the basis of all science. And it is surely responsible for much rudimentary cognition—for integrating beliefs, planning, explicit learning, moral reasoning, and many other mental capacities. Even talking to oneself out loud may occasionally serve a useful function.

From the point of view of our contemplative traditions, however—to boil them all down to a cartoon version, that ignores the rather esoteric disputes among them—our habitual identification with discursive thought, our failure moment to moment to recognize thoughts as thoughts, is a primary source of human suffering. And when a person breaks this spell, an extraordinary kind of relief is available.

But the problem with a contemplative claim of this sort is that you can't borrow someone else's contemplative tools to test it. The problem is that to test such a claim—indeed, to even appreciate how distracted we tend to be in the first place, we have to build our own contemplative tools. Imagine where astronomy would be if everyone had to build his own telescope before he could even begin to see if astronomy was a legitimate enterprise. It wouldn't make the sky any less worthy of investigation, but it would make it immensely more difficult for us to establish astronomy as a science.

To judge the empirical claims of contemplatives, you have to build your own telescope. Judging their metaphysical claims is another matter: many of these can be dismissed as bad science or bad philosophy by merely thinking about them. But to judge whether certain experiences are possible—and if possible, desirable—we have to be able to use our attention in the requisite ways. We have to be able to break our identification with discursive thought, if only for a few moments. This can take a tremendous amount of work. And it is not work that our culture knows much about.

One problem with atheism as a category of thought, is that it seems more or less synonymous with not being interested in what someone like the Buddha or Jesus may have actually experienced. In fact, many atheists reject such experiences out of hand, as either impossible, or if possible, not worth wanting. Another common mistake is to imagine that such experiences are necessarily equivalent to states of mind with which many of us are already familiar—the feeling of scientific awe, or ordinary states of aesthetic appreciation, artistic inspiration, etc.

As someone who has made his own modest efforts in this area, let me assure you, that when a person goes into solitude and trains himself in meditation for 15 or 18 hours a day, for months or years at a time, in silence, doing nothing else—not talking, not reading, not writing—just making a sustained moment to moment effort to merely observe the contents of consciousness and to not get lost in thought, he experiences things that most scientists and artists are not likely to have experienced, unless they have made precisely the same efforts at introspection. And these experiences have a lot to say about the plasticity of the human mind and about the possibilities of human happiness.

So, apart from just commending these phenomena to your attention, I'd like to point out that, as atheists, our neglect of this area of human experience puts us at a rhetorical disadvantage. Because millions of people have had these experiences, and many millions more have had glimmers of them, and we, as atheists, ignore such phenomena, almost in principle, because of their religious associations—and yet these experiences often constitute the most important and transformative moments in a person's life. Not recognizing that such experiences are possible or important can make us appear less wise even than our craziest religious opponents.

My concern is that atheism can easily become the position of not being interested in certain possibilities in principle. I don't know if our universe is, as JBS Haldane said, "not only stranger than we suppose, but stranger than we can suppose." But I am sure that it is stranger than we, as "atheists," tend to represent while advocating atheism. As "atheists" we give others, and even ourselves, the sense that we are well on our way toward purging the universe of mystery. As advocates of reason, we know that mystery is going to be with us for a very long time. Indeed, there are good reasons to believe that mystery is ineradicable from our circumstance, because however much we know, it seems like there will always be brute facts that we cannot account for but which we must rely upon to explain everything else. This may be a problem for epistemology but it is not a problem for human life and for human solidarity. It does not rob our lives of meaning. And it is not a barrier to human happiness.

We are faced, however, with the challenge of communicating this view to others. We are faced with the monumental task of persuading a myth-infatuated world that love and curiosity are sufficient, and that we need not console or frighten ourselves or our children with Iron Age fairy tales. I don't think there is a more important intellectual struggle to win; it has to be fought from a hundred sides, all at once, and continuously; but it seems to me that there is no reason for us to fight in well-ordered ranks, like the red coats of Atheism.

Finally, I think it's useful to envision what victory will look like. Again, the analogy with racism seems instructive to me. What will victory against racism look like, should that happy day ever dawn? It certainly won't be a world in which a majority of people profess that they are "nonracist." Most likely, it will be a world in which the very concept of separate races has lost its meaning.

We will have won this war of ideas against religion when atheism is scarcely intelligible as a concept. We will simply find ourselves in a world in which people cease to praise one another for pretending to know things they do not know. This is certainly a future worth fighting for. It may be the only future compatible with our long-term survival as a species. But the only path between now and then, that I can see, is for us to be rigorously honest in the present. It seems to me that intellectual honesty is now, and will always be, deeper and more durable, and more easily spread, than "atheism."

Not sure what I think about his criticism of the label "atheist". But then again, I've never been sure what I think about the label atheist in the first place...

Goblin Girl
10-03-2007, 07:08 AM
Now, it just so happens that religion has more than its fair share of bad ideas.

If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Raise your hand if you think that's a bad idea.

Varaj
10-03-2007, 07:25 AM
Raise your hand if you think that's a bad idea.

You do know that "more than its fair share of bad ideas" does not mean all of them are bad, right?

This is a good one

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Atticus_of_Amber
10-03-2007, 07:33 AM
You do know that "more than its fair share of bad ideas" does not mean all of them are bad, right?

Indeed.

nerfherder
10-03-2007, 07:41 AM
I think that "atheist" is a term that we do not need, in the same way that we don't need a word for someone who rejects astrology. We simply do not call people "non-astrologers." All we need are words like "reason" and "evidence" and "common sense" and "bullshit" to put astrologers in their place, and so it could be with religion.

I agree that it seems ridiculous to be labelled with a name that means you aren't something.

If someone asked me if I thought there were gods, demons, spirits, or other supernatural beings, or magical spells, or that the future could be divined by looking at the stars, or reading tea-leaves, or bones, or reading prophecies, then I would answer no. Does that mean I have to be labeled as a non-theist, non-demonologist, non-spiritualist, non-sorceror, non-astrologer, etc?

He also makes good points about labelling theists and why it's bad to treat them all the same.

Kwalish Kid
10-03-2007, 07:52 AM
Raise your hand if you think that's a bad idea.
It's a horrible idea. It should be, "faith , hope, and charity." What latter day, prosaic, piece of shit translation have you been reading?

Goblin Girl
10-03-2007, 08:09 AM
It's a horrible idea. It should be, "faith , hope, and charity." What latter day, prosaic, piece of shit translation have you been reading?
That's from the New Revised Standard Version. I've had a number of qualified people tell me it's the preferred translation these days. Obviously you know better than a Catholic priest, a Methodist minister and a Presbyterian minister though. :grey:

Atticus_of_Amber
10-03-2007, 08:21 AM
He also makes good points about labelling theists and why it's bad to treat them all the same.

Yes .. but here he's being just a little bit naughty.

You see, the "new atheists" breaking of the "truce" between moderate theists and atheists/agnostics/freethinkers/science/rationalism was launched by Sam Harris in The End of Faith. Dawkins is more famous for it, but Dawkins was just following Harris (as he admits in the relevant chapters of The God Delusion).

He's going to cop a lot of flack for either hypocrisy or an unacknowledged change of position for that.

On reflection, it is possible to argue that he isn't being inconsistent, but its a damn fine line: You can say that moderate theists unintentionally provide cover for the nutty extremes by causing faith to be respected AND say that we shouldn't antagonise moderates by lumping them in with extremists. One is a point of analysis, and the other is a point of tactics. But, as I say, it's a damn fine line to be walking.

Kwalish Kid
10-03-2007, 08:40 AM
That's from the New Revised Standard Version. I've had a number of qualified people tell me it's the preferred translation these days. Obviously you know better than a Catholic priest, a Methodist minister and a Presbyterian minister though. :grey:
Just look at everything that translation ruined, just in that passage!

Would you go see the movie, "A Scanner Dimly"?

And what would they name that classic episode of the Highlander TV series?

The only thing going for the new translation is the Star Trek: Enterprise episode, "Through a Mirror, Darkly." Is that really helping the case of the new translation?

Edit: Yes, for this I get negative rep. Isn't there something ironic someone can say about love? Or at least about putting away childish thoughts?

Trainz
10-03-2007, 11:21 AM
I agree. By labeling something, it becomes targetable and is easier to dissmiss.

Reason and enlightment shouldn't be so easy to dissmiss.

Northcott
10-03-2007, 12:42 PM
I agree. By labeling something, it becomes targetable and is easier to dissmiss.

Reason and enlightment shouldn't be so easy to dissmiss.

The problem in there is that to describe something, we need to label it. Even the terms 'reason and enlightenment' are labels with implicit meaning when used in the context you put them. Creation of archetypes, categories, and common imagery is the cornerstone of our ability to communicate effectively. Atheist simply means one who does not believe in a divine presence, whether singular or plural. The term, in and of itself, is no more judgemental nor descriptive than "theist". The problem comes when people with agendas -- usually fundamentalists from one side or the other -- come along to try and paint diverse groups with the same colour.

You do know that "more than its fair share of bad ideas" does not mean all of them are bad, right?

The tripping point comes in the notion of "more than its fair share". Really, what is a "fair share" of bad ideas on that grand a scale? If we're separating the world in a binary fashion, as seems to be done with the notion of religious/non-religious, the perception of the weight of that scale changes considerably. There's been a number of horrendous ideas on both sides, I'd say, and creating a qualitative based on a binary dichotomy of religious standing -- while simultaneously professing a problem with the use of the term "atheism" due to that very binary nature -- is somewhat disingenuous.

And I've got to say: the idea that a group of atheists hold a conference to strategize on how to best deal with the notion of religion in the world -- and in Harris' own words, fight and win an ideological war against it -- doesn't really do much to dissuade my position that these people are just fundamentalist nuts of another stripe. Anybody who spends that much time and effort worrying about what other people believe and trying to find ways to remove them from the game, are innately scary; atheist, theist, or what have you. Fanaticism and surety of cause are a hair-raising combination.

Northcott
10-03-2007, 12:45 PM
It's a horrible idea. It should be, "faith , hope, and charity." What latter day, prosaic, piece of shit translation have you been reading?

It's the standard, from what I can tell. What's your alternate translation, and your source?

doc
10-03-2007, 12:47 PM
Raise your hand if you think that's a bad idea.

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Why do you hate Love ??

Kwalish Kid
10-03-2007, 01:09 PM
It's the standard, from what I can tell. What's your alternate translation, and your source?
King James ring any bells?

doc
10-03-2007, 01:22 PM
King James ring any bells?

I want a new translation direct from the original hebrew/ Greek, not what some pediphile wanted in the 15th century. I had a preacher that told what the original text said and members howled cause it wasn't what the KJV said. idiots

Kwalish Kid
10-03-2007, 03:00 PM
Sure. But when people discuss the literary impact of the Bible, they are usually talking about the literary impact of the KJV.

Northcott
10-03-2007, 04:07 PM
Sure. But when people discuss the literary impact of the Bible, they are usually talking about the literary impact of the KJV.


You were ragging on the quality of translation without making a point, and now you're admitting that the translation you're using as a comparison is flawed? Trying to backtrack and justify that as an element of discussing the literary impact of the Bible, when that topic wasn't even on the table, is pretty weak, man.

Varaj
10-03-2007, 05:10 PM
The tripping point comes in the notion of "more than its fair share". Really, what is a "fair share" of bad ideas on that grand a scale?

I thought the term always meant "more than you would expect". It is very subjective but I've never heard anybody think it means 100%.

Varaj
10-03-2007, 05:11 PM
That's from the New Revised Standard Version. I've had a number of qualified people tell me it's the preferred translation these days. Obviously you know better than a Catholic priest, a Methodist minister and a Presbyterian minister though. :grey:


The Catholic church is switching Bibles?

Kwalish Kid
10-03-2007, 05:27 PM
You were ragging on the quality of translation without making a point, and now you're admitting that the translation you're using as a comparison is flawed? Trying to backtrack and justify that as an element of discussing the literary impact of the Bible, when that topic wasn't even on the table, is pretty weak, man.
I had assumed that the King James Bible was fairly well known. Hence the original joke.

Jesus fucking Christ, you are such a total shithead, Northcott. You do so much for people of faith with your total lack of any fucking understanding. I though you were simply humourless, but it appears that you just don't have a clue.

I don't give a shit what version of that piece-of-shit hypocritical text someone prefers. Goblin Girl is a great fucking example of a nice hate-spewing Christian motherfucker who runs to the love passages when it suits her. There's a point for you--one that's even on topic.

Atticus_of_Amber
10-03-2007, 09:27 PM
Anybody who spends that much time and effort worrying about what other people believe and trying to find ways to remove them from the game, are innately scary; atheist, theist, or what have you. Fanaticism and surety of cause are a hair-raising combination.

- teachers trying to promote evolution over creationism
- writers and artists trying to combat racist attitudes
- writers and artists trying to combat sexist attitudes
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about global warming
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about liberalism
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about conservative
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about health care reform
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about gun control
- educators trying to change people in Africa's beliefs about how AIDS is transmitted
- in fact anyone who tries to change the beliefs of the general public - advertisers, journalists, politicians, educators, writers ...

... all "innately scary"?

Methinks the great critic of "generalisations" just overgeneralised. ;)

But I'll do something he almost never does. I'll try to understand what he actually meant. And what he meant, I think, is that people who spend a lot of time being concerned about and try to change other people's beliefs about 'ultimate questions" - like the fundamental nature of reality, the existence of an afterlife, the origins of the universe, the origins of life, the existence of "miracles", the nature of ethics, etc - are scary.

But why is this scary? Why is discussion and persuasion and campaigning about ultimate questions somehow dangerous or beyond the pale? In a society based on free speech, where beliefs are supposed to live or die in the Darwinian "marketplace of ideas", why is entering that marketplace to sell or critique ideas on ultimate questions somehow suspect?

There might be a good answer to this. But all the ones I can think of so far are either patronising to believers or inconsistent with liberal principles.

Varaj
10-03-2007, 10:08 PM
There might be a good answer to this. But all the ones I can think of so far are either patronising to believers or inconsistent with liberal principles.

I don't think they are innately scary but they are innately annoying, shouldn't be outlawed for being annoying though. :)

What is innately scary is people that try to force on me a way to live based on unprovable, untestable and unquestionable beliefs.

Atticus_of_Amber
10-03-2007, 10:16 PM
I don't think they are innately scary but they are innately annoying, <snip>

And so are:
- teachers trying to promote evolution over creationism
- writers and artists trying to combat racist attitudes
- writers and artists trying to combat sexist attitudes
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about global warming
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about liberalism
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about conservative
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about health care reform
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about gun control
- educators trying to change people in Africa's beliefs about how AIDS is transmitted
- in fact anyone who tries to change the beliefs of the general public - advertisers, journalists, politicians, educators, writers ...

What is innately scary is people that try to force on me a way to live based on unprovable, untestable and unquestionable beliefs.

Indeed. Not to mention people inhibiting the most promising biological research program in history (stem cells) on the basis of moral beliefs founded on "unprovable, un-testable and unquestionable beliefs" - i.e. dogma. There may be moral objections to stem cell research, but how do we even try to persuade each other if some of us (and some of the most powerful of us) take positions based on dogma?

Northcott
10-04-2007, 12:40 AM
I thought the term always meant "more than you would expect". It is very subjective but I've never heard anybody think it means 100%.

Nope. I've never heard it parsed as 100% either, but nor have I heard it phrased as kindly as "more than you would expect". More that it's exceeded its balance and is in need of redressing. Harris seems content to carry on this ideological war that he professes to be one-sided; perhaps lip service is paid to the greater tendency of the human race to commit atrocities in general, but he comes across as exceptionally hung up on the notion of religion. I see that as being akin to a doctor that spends more time obsessing over the symptoms than the disease.

But why is this scary? Why is discussion and persuasion and campaigning about ultimate questions somehow dangerous or beyond the pale? In a society based on free speech, where beliefs are supposed to live or die in the Darwinian "marketplace of ideas", why is entering that marketplace to sell or critique ideas on ultimate questions somehow suspect?

It's scary for the same reason that I find cultish behaviour among religious extremists scary; proselytization is indicative of a mindset possessed of arrogance and fueled by self-righteousness. The two never lead to tranquility, and very rarely allow a broader peace. Those possessed of that level of fanaticsm have, throughout history, been responsible for the greatest atrocities of the human race -- religious or no.

This is not to say that every fanatic is violently dangerous. Our species, however, is already possessed of an exceptionally dangerous quality of seperating people into crude groups of "us" vs. "them". When public figures who have a broad forum and a wide following purposely cultivate that instinct, denigrating the target "them" in some way, it always makes me queasy. Look how easily Dawkins' "Brights" slipped into the mentality of it.

As a species we are stupid, dangerous sheep -- and never moreso than when we think we're being terribly clever while indulging in this fallacy of groupthink.

Right now the New Atheist movement isn't terribly dangerous. I see it as having the potential to be so. So far I'm seeing many of the signs that scare the crap out of me about religious fanatics in this grouping. We just (thankfully) haven't found much in the way of extremists yet.

Why is discussion and persuasion and campaigning about ultimate questions somehow dangerous or beyond the pale? Because whenever somebody campaigns to have the other removed from play, to have their voice heard to the exclusion of all others -- even if that other voice seems utterly inane -- they tread a totalitarian line that I cannot abide; Whether that's a nutjob pushing schools to adopt creationism in the hopes of edging out evolutionary theory, or an atheist who believes that pursuing a war against religion with an eye toward removing it entirely from the human lexicon is a good idea. The concepts implicit behind the explicit statements are, in my point of view, reprehensible.

Northcott
10-04-2007, 12:45 AM
- teachers trying to promote evolution over creationism
- writers and artists trying to combat racist attitudes
- writers and artists trying to combat sexist attitudes
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about global warming
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about liberalism
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about conservative
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about health care reform
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about gun control
- educators trying to change people in Africa's beliefs about how AIDS is transmitted
- in fact anyone who tries to change the beliefs of the general public - advertisers, journalists, politicians, educators, writers ...

... all "innately scary"?

Methinks the great critic of "generalisations" just overgeneralised. ;)

Nope. Find me a fanatic about one of those, and I'll find them scary as well. You really can't think of examples where those goals could be taken to unpleasant extremes? With, for example, liberals or conservatives so blinded by prejudice that they can't see the value of the other side? Determined to wage a war where the opposing ideology is removed entirely from play? I find those kinds of political thinkers to be scary as Hell.

Northcott
10-04-2007, 12:51 AM
I had assumed that the King James Bible was fairly well known.

It is.

Jesus fucking Christ, you are such a total shithead, Northcott.

Wah, wah, wah. For a troll you whine a godawful amount when you're poked back. :D Man up, little bitch!

I though you were simply humourless...

I'm infamous for my lack of humour. You're infamous for your lack of ability to be funny. We're a match made in Heaven! Or a slime-filled puddle at the dawn of time. Depends on whether you're a theist or atheist, I suppose.

Goblin Girl is a great fucking example of a nice hate-spewing Christian motherfucker who runs to the love passages when it suits her.

Slow down there, Barry White. With all the love vibe you give off, I'm surprised you can see hate in others!

There's a point for you--one that's even on topic.

Goblin Girl is secretly Sam Harris, and your issue with her and/or her religious standing counts as Harris' problem with Atheism? You clever humourist, you! That really was funny! :D

Atticus_of_Amber
10-04-2007, 01:40 AM
It's scary for the same reason that I find cultish behaviour among religious extremists scary; proselytization is indicative of a mindset possessed of arrogance and fueled by self-righteousness. The two never lead to tranquility, and very rarely allow a broader peace. Those possessed of that level of fanaticsm have, throughout history, been responsible for the greatest atrocities of the human race -- religious or no.

This is not to say that every fanatic is violently dangerous. Our species, however, is already possessed of an exceptionally dangerous quality of seperating people into crude groups of "us" vs. "them". When public figures who have a broad forum and a wide following purposely cultivate that instinct, denigrating the target "them" in some way, it always makes me queasy. Look how easily Dawkins' "Brights" slipped into the mentality of it.

As a species we are stupid, dangerous sheep -- and never moreso than when we think we're being terribly clever while indulging in this fallacy of groupthink.

Right now the New Atheist movement isn't terribly dangerous. I see it as having the potential to be so. So far I'm seeing many of the signs that scare the crap out of me about religious fanatics in this grouping. We just (thankfully) haven't found much in the way of extremists yet.

Why is discussion and persuasion and campaigning about ultimate questions somehow dangerous or beyond the pale? Because whenever somebody campaigns to have the other removed from play, to have their voice heard to the exclusion of all others -- even if that other voice seems utterly inane -- they tread a totalitarian line that I cannot abide; Whether that's a nutjob pushing schools to adopt creationism in the hopes of edging out evolutionary theory, or an atheist who believes that pursuing a war against religion with an eye toward removing it entirely from the human lexicon is a good idea. The concepts implicit behind the explicit statements are, in my point of view, reprehensible.

Varaj, are you up for pointing out the several rather obvious distinctions this ignores? NoBob? Anyone? I'm all out of motivation.

Varaj
10-04-2007, 06:43 AM
Nope. I've never heard it parsed as 100% either, but nor have I heard it phrased as kindly as "more than you would expect". More that it's exceeded its balance and is in need of redressing.


Means the same thing to me, so I think we are in agreement.


Why is discussion and persuasion and campaigning about ultimate questions somehow dangerous or beyond the pale? Because whenever somebody campaigns to have the other removed from play, to have their voice heard to the exclusion of all others -- even if that other voice seems utterly inane -- they tread a totalitarian line that I cannot abide; Whether that's a nutjob pushing schools to adopt creationism in the hopes of edging out evolutionary theory, or an atheist who believes that pursuing a war against religion with an eye toward removing it entirely from the human lexicon is a good idea. The concepts implicit behind the explicit statements are, in my point of view, reprehensible.

To the best of my knowledge the group you are referencing only whats it removed from public policy not from play. Two very different things.

Varaj
10-04-2007, 06:46 AM
And so are:
- teachers trying to promote evolution over creationism
- writers and artists trying to combat racist attitudes
- writers and artists trying to combat sexist attitudes
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about global warming
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about liberalism
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about conservative
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about health care reform
- political activists trying to change people's beliefs about gun control
- educators trying to change people in Africa's beliefs about how AIDS is transmitted
- in fact anyone who tries to change the beliefs of the general public - advertisers, journalists, politicians, educators, writers ...


I meant on from your specific subset of his statement. :D

Northcott
10-04-2007, 12:29 PM
Means the same thing to me, so I think we are in agreement.

Perhaps. I often lament/regret the lack of clarity in text-only communication. The flipside is that when I'm speaking about ponderous issues, I take on a ponderous cadence of speech. I can type fast enough to express what I'm thinking, which leads to overlong posts, but trying to express it verbally can sometimes become a chore -- particularly if I'm tired and not firing on all pistons.

To the best of my knowledge the group you are referencing only whats it removed from public policy not from play. Two very different things.

At first I was confused by this; as I'm responding, though, I'm realizing that 'whats' may be a typo for 'wants'... is this correct? If so, I'd agree with that to an extent: I believe that you can only remove religious thought from policy to a certain extent. Insofar as it informs the individual's stance on various issues, we will always have this problem.

Additionally, I think that Harris' stance (and the apparent stance of New Atheism in general) is flawed from a few regards; points that dredge up the spectre of the "Us vs. Them" mentality that I believe eventually leads to greater trouble. That trouble rarely comes from the intellectuals who initially adopt a flawed thinking, but rather from second-generation thinkers who co-opt it to champion their political causes or use it for justification of terrible policies (as we see happen with many religions).

"Given the absence of evidence for God, and the stupidity and suffering that still thrives under the mantle of religion, declaring oneself an "atheist" would seem the only appropriate response." -- a binary proposition offering an implicit either/or scenario.

He goes on to use a dramatic and grotesque depiction of racism implied as a parallel to religion, suggesting that the latter should be dealt with in a similar manner: "If the comparison with astrology seems too facile, consider the problem of racism. Racism was about as intractable a social problem as we have ever had in this country. We are talking about deeply held convictions. I'm sure you have all seen the photos of lynchings in the first half of the 20th century—where seemingly whole towns in the South, thousands of men, women and children—bankers, lawyers, doctors, teachers, church elders, newspaper editors, policemen, even the occasional Senator and Congressman—turned out as though for a carnival to watch some young man or woman be tortured to death and then strung up on a tree or lamppost for all to see." -- I'm presuming that you can see the innate flaw with that line of thought, Varaj. It seems to me to be a rather gigantic, and prejudicial, leap. There are connecting points, certainly, but there are also connecting points with secular and scientific thought -- and in all three cases, the connecting points are distorted and flawed views of the root material.

"Another problem is that in accepting a label, particularly the label of "atheist," it seems to me that we are consenting to be viewed as a cranky sub-culture. We are consenting to be viewed as a marginal interest group that meets in hotel ballrooms. I'm not saying that meetings like this aren't important. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was important. But I am saying that as a matter of philosophy we are guilty of confusion, and as a matter of strategy, we have walked into a trap. It is a trap that has been, in many cases, deliberately set for us. And we have jumped into it with both feet." -- Implication of a purposeful, conspiratorial, outside force that seeks to hedge in and trap these individuals. This is nonsense. This is further propogation of the "Us vs. Them" mentality, fabricating a common enemy with implied malicious intent with the aim of creating a greater unity and singleness of mind in a group. We've seen this tactic in politics before. And by advocating that this philosophy be taken to a political level, we're not looking merely at the removal of fundamentalist thought from politics, but at the notion that he may be advocating the political arena as a battleground for an ideological conflict.

My post's more than long enough already -- surprise, surprise. I'll end it with this: Were he not cultivating this groupthink, proposing a philosophy that espouses reason but fosters blanket assumptions and promotes a more primal "tribal" thought pattern, I might have more agreement with him. As it is, I see this not as a true alternative to fundamentalism in politics, but simply an addition to the problem. His "problem with atheism" seems only half-genuine; the rest appears to be just another call to arms that appeals to groupthink rather than the elevation of reason and/or the individual.

Edit: My apologies for extra length. I would like to acknowledge that Harris delves briefly into notions of specific examination and reason rather than blind prejudice -- but overall I find his flirting with the temptation of creating consensus through basic seperation to be a dangerous one. It's a big subject he's tackling, and the precision of language is, in public figures with such a broad influence, far more important than our errors on messageboards.

Kwalish Kid
10-04-2007, 04:44 PM
Implication of a purposeful, conspiratorial, outside force that seeks to hedge in and trap these individuals. This is nonsense. This is further propogation of the "Us vs. Them" mentality, fabricating a common enemy with implied malicious intent with the aim of creating a greater unity and singleness of mind in a group.
Yet there clearly are these forces. At least half of the Republican party presidential cnadidates are pandering to these forces.

Northcott
10-04-2007, 08:33 PM
Yet there clearly are these forces. At least half of the Republican party presidential cnadidates are pandering to these forces.

It's not my intent in any way, shape, or form to downplay the danger presented by the religious right -- but I think that trying to pass off the growing image that goes hand in hand with the term 'atheist' as part of a conspiracy theory is lunacy on par with the religious right claiming that leftist media are unfairly portraying them as nuts.

Everytime I see this line of thought growing, I can't help but think (ironically) of that old Nietzsche quote; "Be careful when you fight monsters, lest you become one." When working as a public figure seeking to inspire the masses to movement, extra care has to be taken in attempting to forecast the tides of that movement.

Snatch
10-04-2007, 10:50 PM
Additionally, I think that Harris' stance (and the apparent stance of New Atheism in general) is flawed from a few regards; points that dredge up the spectre of the "Us vs. Them" mentality that I believe eventually leads to greater trouble.

In particular, which part of Harris' argument do you consider flawed? Because they are two almost diametrically opposed philosophies, I don't see how there won't be some form of friction.

He goes on to use a dramatic and grotesque depiction of racism implied as a parallel to religion, suggesting that the latter should be dealt with in a similar manner: [...] I'm presuming that you can see the innate flaw with that line of thought, Varaj. It seems to me to be a rather gigantic, and prejudicial, leap. There are connecting points, certainly, but there are also connecting points with secular and scientific thought -- and in all three cases, the connecting points are distorted and flawed views of the root material.

Actually the racism point was made to identify why the term atheism is not needed. Generally, one doesn't use the term "non-racist" to describe oneself. but, ask yourself, how many people have had to identify themselves as "non-racists" to participate in this process? Is there a "non-racist alliance" somewhere for me to join?
and
And atheism, I would argue, is not a thing. It is not a philosophy, just as "non-racism" is not one. Atheism is not a worldview—and yet most people imagine it to be one and attack it as such.

-- Implication of a purposeful, conspiratorial, outside force that seeks to hedge in and trap these individuals. This is nonsense. This is further propogation of the "Us vs. Them" mentality, fabricating a common enemy with implied malicious intent with the aim of creating a greater unity and singleness of mind in a group. We've seen this tactic in politics before. And by advocating that this philosophy be taken to a political level, we're not looking merely at the removal of fundamentalist thought from politics, but at the notion that he may be advocating the political arena as a battleground for an ideological conflict.

I suppose Harris would need to expand what he meant here, but I didn't read it as a conspiratorial agenda. Instead I read it to mean the label of atheist allows valid criticisms and arguments to be dismissed and marginalized because "atheists" are often relegated a "sub-culture". The trap is that many people who eagerly identify themselves as atheists don't do anything to counter that stereotype. At no time did I read he's attempting to take this philosophical argument into the political ring nor does he try to fabricate a common enemy and unite a movement. In fact, he says much to the opposite:

We should not call ourselves "atheists." We should not call ourselves "secularists." We should not call ourselves "humanists," or "secular humanists," or "naturalists," or "skeptics," or "anti-theists," or "rationalists," or "freethinkers," or "brights." We should not call ourselves anything. We should go under the radar—for the rest of our lives. And while there, we should be decent, responsible people who destroy bad ideas wherever we find them.

Were he not cultivating this groupthink, proposing a philosophy that espouses reason but fosters blanket assumptions and promotes a more primal "tribal" thought pattern, I might have more agreement with him. As it is, I see this not as a true alternative to fundamentalism in politics, but simply an addition to the problem. His "problem with atheism" seems only half-genuine; the rest appears to be just another call to arms that appeals to groupthink rather than the elevation of reason and/or the individual.

I don't see where you are coming to this conclusion from. Harris is actually arguing that athiesm isn't a philosophy and that people should just counter "bad ideas" when they crop up. He's not calling any one "to arms" so to speak.

Lucita
10-05-2007, 03:18 AM
See, all this theist/atheist shit would go away if people would just consult thier pituitary glands and find the path to Eris within themselves.

Remember kids, Eris loves you. Except when she hates you, but that only happens when Jupiter is out of phase or she's hung over. Or drunk. Or sober. But if you let her into your life she'll plant a beautiful rose garden, drink the gin you have hidden in the toilet tank, teach your canary to cure cancer and then burn down your house for the insurance before jacking a BMW and heading to Uruguay with your credit cards.

Hail Discordia!

Atticus_of_Amber
10-05-2007, 03:58 AM
See, all this theist/atheist shit would go away if people would just consult thier pituitary glands and find the path to Eris within themselves.

Remember kids, Eris loves you. Except when she hates you, but that only happens when Jupiter is out of phase or she's hung over. Or drunk. Or sober. But if you let her into your life she'll plant a beautiful rose garden, drink the gin you have hidden in the toilet tank, teach your canary to cure cancer and then burn down your house for the insurance before jacking a BMW and heading to Uruguay with your credit cards.

Hail Discordia!

Do not mock the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn will stop Santa Clause from bringing you Christmas presents and the Tooth Fairy will bash your teeth in. The Easter Bunny told me, so it must be true.

Northcott
10-05-2007, 09:11 AM
See, all this theist/atheist shit would go away if people would just consult thier pituitary glands and find the path to Eris within themselves.

Remember kids, Eris loves you. Except when she hates you, but that only happens when Jupiter is out of phase or she's hung over. Or drunk. Or sober. But if you let her into your life she'll plant a beautiful rose garden, drink the gin you have hidden in the toilet tank, teach your canary to cure cancer and then burn down your house for the insurance before jacking a BMW and heading to Uruguay with your credit cards.

Hail Discordia!


Dude, you rock. :) Double funny with that avatar!

Northcott
10-05-2007, 09:14 AM
In particular, which part of Harris' argument do you consider flawed? Because they are two almost diametrically opposed philosophies, I don't see how there won't be some form of friction.

I'll ask your pardon here, Snatch, when I say that I don't feel like trudging down that road again. :o There've been repeated and thorough rehashings of that discussion from NTL to here, creating threads that have spawned pages of posts closer to short, boring novels than anything else.


Actually the racism point was made to identify why the term atheism is not needed. Generally, one doesn't use the term "non-racist" to describe oneself.

We don't use "non-theist", either. To claim that there is no broad term for those who reject prejudicial dialogue is incorrect; we call them egalitarian. That the word doesn't acheive wider use is a point of sadness.

I suppose Harris would need to expand what he meant here, but I didn't read it as a conspiratorial agenda. Instead I read it to mean the label of atheist allows valid criticisms and arguments to be dismissed and marginalized because "atheists" are often relegated a "sub-culture". The trap is that many people who eagerly identify themselves as atheists don't do anything to counter that stereotype. At no time did I read he's attempting to take this philosophical argument into the political ring nor does he try to fabricate a common enemy and unite a movement. In fact, he says much to the opposite:

I find that Harris pays lip service to one idea while the choice of language and phrasing reinforces another. He says strive for individualism -- but calls to the group to uniformly avoid labelling themselves. It's a truth of the human condition; we name things into similar groups for ease of communication. This cannot be avoided. At best, it can be tailored.

In fact, as Harris decries the notion of atheists being lumped into a group, he continues his description of 'religion' as an amalgamous whole, only stepping away from that tactic only long enough to briefly deny that it's his intent -- before starting up with it again. If it is counter-productive to speak of atheism as a mode of thought, how then is it correct to speak of religion as if there were cohesion?

I don't see where you are coming to this conclusion from. Harris is actually arguing that athiesm isn't a philosophy and that people should just counter "bad ideas" when they crop up. He's not calling any one "to arms" so to speak.

"Atheism is too blunt an instrument to use at moments like this. It's as though we have a landscape of human ignorance and bewilderment—with peaks and valleys and local attractors—and the concept of atheism causes us to fixate one part of this landscape, the part related to theistic religion, and then just flattens it. Because to be consistent as atheists we must oppose, or seem to oppose, all faith claims equally. This is a waste of precious time and energy, and it squanders the trust of people who would otherwise agree with us on specific issues."

On one hand decrying the broad-base application of the term atheist, on the other, claiming that embracing the term "atheist" must denote active opposition of the faith of others. This is typical of Harris: say one thing, imply another. He speaks of options, but implicity presents, again and again, a binary worldview that seeks to reduce a spectrum of behaviour to simple black and white. I find it disingenious. In this case, to be atheist only becomes a value judgement if presented in the way that he and others have. To be atheist does not mean conforming to that stereotype, and there are many atheists who do not define themselves through opposition to the faith of others.

"Why should we fall into this trap? Why should we stand obediently in the space provided, in the space carved out by the conceptual scheme of theistic religion? It's as though, before the debate even begins, our opponents draw the chalk-outline of a dead man on the sidewalk, and we just walk up and lie down in it."

You don't see this as the dialogue of a man who's drawing a line in the sand between "Us" and "Them"? Even as he says "do not be trapped as part of a group", he says "here is what we should do", calling for action as a group. Even when he chooses to speak about not shoeboxing atheism, or not making the mistake of lumping all religious thought into the same box, he preceeds and follows such statements -- or even makes those statements -- couched in terms of "Us vs. Them". He even ends his closing paragraph with the statement: "We will have won this war of ideas against religion when atheism is scarcely intelligible as a concept."

Harris bothers me for the same reason that the nutjobs on the religious right bother me. Incapable of self-contentment, he seeks to "save" others through conversion, and defines his beliefs through righteous, sympathetic contrast with the error of other people's philosophies. When communicating a philosophy, the implicit easily counts for as much as the explicit. Regardless of any lip service to uncertainty, open-mindedness, or individuality of thought, Harris inevitably chooses to couch his proposal in terms of opposition of groups, Us vs. Them, atheism vs. religion. And even that he tries to put off on the shoulders of others.

And frankly, I don't think it needs to be that way at all.

I'll end yet another long-winded explaination of my thoughts with this: I don't think that Harris is intentionally doing so. I don't think that this step is taken from malice. I think he's just responding to human nature, the desire to group people, even as he wrestles with the idea of not grouping people. But the problem is that he's trying to avoid the one while using the other to further his cause. He seems to have noble intentions, but it's the kind of schizm of thought that later on provides inspiration and justification for those who do not look for implicit and explicit meanings in dialogue, but take them literally to further their own causes.

Public figures have to be very, very careful, and Harris barely makes an attempt in that direction. Jesus said "Love one another", and morons ran off to stab each other in the face over their interpretation of that. Darwin said "Species evolve, and so did we", and some nutjobs eventually twisted that into notions of racial purity and selective breeding. When the dialogue starts off with "We have to be more subtle in how we fight this war", I twitch.

Keeper of Secrets
10-05-2007, 07:11 PM
As a simple observation I am seeing more anger and hatred from the atheist-oriented crowd than the Christian-oriented crowd.

Lucita
10-06-2007, 02:09 AM
I think it really depends on what sources you read, Keeper. It's par for course in politics to spin the opposing power bloc into hate-spewing monsters who want to destroy your way of life. I read Harris' Letter to a Chrsitian Nation, recently, and got the impression he thought they talked about how best to storm high schools and string up biology teachers at Mass each week. Sure if I read something from a Christian perspective there'd be accounts of how the athesists get together and plot to firebomb Nativity scenes.

And I very purposefully used politics in that last paragraph. I think that, largely, the atheism/theism schism (hah) is about poltical power and influence more than any matters of faith.

Besides, it's early October. Wait a week or two and the "War on Christmas" drek will start up. :)

Snatch
10-16-2007, 10:47 PM
I'll ask your pardon here, Snatch, when I say that I don't feel like trudging down that road again. :o There've been repeated and thorough rehashings of that discussion from NTL to here, creating threads that have spawned pages of posts closer to short, boring novels than anything else.

Fair enough. I'm not out to prove anything or aggressively challenge ideas. Just friendly chat on items that pop up here and there.

But I will say that after reading your post, I believe you're missing his message.

And I very purposefully used politics in that last paragraph. I think that, largely, the atheism/theism schism (hah) is about poltical power and influence more than any matters of faith.

I believe this is the crux of the matter as well. In "The End of Faith" it definitely is the reason why he argues against faith. Absolute acceptance of ideas without critical examination can only lead to future problems and when this world-view is placed in the 'halls of power' the effect can only be amplified.

Atticus_of_Amber
10-17-2007, 12:41 AM
But I will say that after reading your post, I believe you're missing his message.

And then some!

I believe this is the crux of the matter as well. In "The End of Faith" it definitely is the reason why he argues against faith. Absolute acceptance of ideas without critical examination can only lead to future problems and when this world-view is placed in the 'halls of power' the effect can only be amplified.

And the situation is all the more urgent in a world that has nuclear weapons, highly mobile populations and a reliance on vulnerable technologies. As Harris says, we can no longer afford to tolerate our irrational dogmas.

NRG
10-17-2007, 12:41 PM
As a simple observation I am seeing more anger and hatred from the atheist-oriented crowd than the Christian-oriented crowd.

You'll notice that religious minorities without access to political power make noise in a whole lot of countries about the unfairness of the majority religious sect's governance. As long as public funding of religion, religious interference with science, and policies putting the fate of souls ahead of the fate of human beings continue, the non-religious will continue to make noise about it. Those who support overt Christian interference with the government policy will continue to be quiet. Bank on it.

More generally, those attempting to change the status quo must make their argument heard in order to have a chance to achieve their goals. This is true with any endeavor, including the agenda of the so-called new atheists.

NRG

Atticus_of_Amber
10-17-2007, 07:40 PM
As a simple observation I am seeing more anger and hatred from the atheist-oriented crowd than the Christian-oriented crowd.

Yep, those hate-filled atheists are opposing gay marriage, calling for religious discrimination, saying that religious people are unfit for public office, demanding that dogma be taught as science in schools, issuing fatwas for the death of religious novelists and memoirists, fighting and killing atheists of slightly different doctrinal beliefs in Iraq (and until recently in Northern Ireland) and flying aeroplanes into office buildings in the name of atheism. They're real bastards. :rolleyes:

Atticus_of_Amber
10-19-2007, 01:40 AM
As a simple observation I am seeing more anger and hatred from the atheist-oriented crowd than the Christian-oriented crowd.

Perhaps a more elegant response is this:

Those fanatical atheists
by Dan Gardner, The Ottawa Citizen

Reposted from:
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/columnists/story.html?id=62d4e647-9088-47dc-8a46-6397e3a6e30d

It's popular these days to equate those who question God with the worst kind of zealots, but it's not fair

Yesterday was one major religion's holy day. Today is another's. Tomorrow is a third's. So I thought this is an opportune moment to say I think all three of these faiths -- these mighty institutions, these esteemed philosophies, these ancient and honoured traditions -- are ridiculous quackery. Parted seas. Walking corpses. Nocturnal visits to Heaven. For goodness sake, people, the talking wolf in Little Red Riding Hood is more plausible.

In the past, I've tried to avoid talking about religion in such sharp terms. It's not that I fear giving offence (which would be something of a limitation in my line of work). Rather, I know, as all humans do, that it's scary knowing you're going to die. And if belief in angels on high eases the existential fears of some, I won't begrudge them. Whatever gets you through the night, as a long-haired prophet once said.

But a series of books doing quite well on bestseller lists -- by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and, soon, Christopher Hitchens -- argues it's time to be a lot less deferential to faith, and I have to say I find it hard to disagree. After all, we live in a time when blowing children to bits is an increasingly popular form of worship, the most powerful man on earth thinks he's got a hotline to God, and much of the electorate who gave that man his power would never consider replacing him with someone who does not believe the son of a carpenter who died 2,000 years ago sits in heaven advising presidents, fixing football games, and waiting for the day he will return to the Earth to brutally murder all unbelievers and erect a worldwide dictatorship.

Private, quiet faith is one thing. But when the guy holding the launch codes believes the end of the world could come any day and that's a good thing, those who believe lives are limited to one per customer have a problem.

Those making this case have been dubbed the "new atheists." They have also been called fanatics who are dogmatic, zealous and intolerant of other views -- the mirror image of religious extremists. As one English university dean said in the Guardian, Richard Dawkins is "just as fundamentalist as the people setting off bombs in the Tube."

Less Olympian thinkers have portrayed strident atheists as hacking away at the bonds of morality, which must inevitably lead to various forms of depravity ranging from the sexual to the genocidal.

Don't you know Stalin was an atheist? That's the way it goes. First you read Richard Dawkins. Then you have an abortion. Then you're putting a fresh coat of paint on the Gulag.

This frames the debate in a pleasingly symmetrical way. Over on that side are the insane religious fanatics who fly jets into skyscrapers and march around with signs saying "God Hates Fags." Over there are fanatical atheists. Between the two extremes are sensible moderates who take the Goldilocks approach to faith and reason. Not too hot. Not too cold. Lukewarm, please, keep it lukewarm.

The appeal is obvious. "All things to moderation," the Greeks sensibly advised, and this looks perfectly moderate. Whether it can withstand a little scrutiny is another matter.

The first problem for the moderate believer comes from those who like their faith hot. You've agreed God exists and that He mucks about in the world. You've agreed this book contains His holy commandments. So how do you respond when the mad religious zealot says, "hey, here on page 23, it says we should slice open unbelievers and use their guts for garters. And over here on page 75, it says we should bury homosexuals up to their necks and stuff olives up their noses. If God exists and these are his holy commandments, then shouldn't we get serious about the gutting and stuffing?"

One response is to make like a Philadelphia lawyer and spin plain words ("and yea, the Lord saith, the nose of the sodomite shall be stuffed with olives ...") until they don't say what they plainly say. But the more common response is to simply pretend the garters-and-olives passages don't exist and prattle on about how God is merciful and loving.

This is neither faithful nor reasonable. Still, as a practical matter, it will do in times of religious quiescence. But with religious zealotry in the ascendant, this non-answer is not going to keep the ranks of the nutters from swelling. And that's dangerous to us all.

Then there's the problem on the other side -- among the atheists such as Richard Dawkins who have been labelled "fanatics." Now, it is absolutely true that Dawkins' tone is often as charming as fingernails dragged slowly down a chalkboard. But just what is the core of Dawkins' radical message?

Well, it goes something like this: If you claim that something is true, I will examine the evidence which supports your claim; if you have no evidence, I will not accept that what you say is true and I will think you a foolish and gullible person for believing it so.

That's it. That's the whole, crazy, fanatical package.

When the Pope says that a few words and some hand-waving causes a cracker to transform into the flesh of a 2,000-year-old man, Dawkins and his fellow travellers say, well, prove it. It should be simple. Swab the Host and do a DNA analysis. If you don't, we will give your claim no more respect than we give to those who say they see the future in crystal balls or bend spoons with their minds or become werewolves at each full moon.

And for this, it is Dawkins, not the Pope, who is labelled the unreasonable fanatic on par with faith-saturated madmen who sacrifice children to an invisible spirit.

This is completely contrary to how we live the rest of our lives. We demand proof of even trivial claims ("John was the main creative force behind Sergeant Pepper") and we dismiss those who make such claims without proof. We are still more demanding when claims are made on matters that are at least temporarily important ("Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction" being a notorious example).

So isn't it odd that when claims are made about matters as important as the nature of existence and our place in it we suddenly drop all expectation of proof and we respect those who make and believe claims without the slightest evidence? Why is it perfectly reasonable to roll my eyes when someone makes the bald assertion that Ringo was the greatest Beatle but it is "fundamentalist" and "fanatical" to say that, absent evidence, it is absurd to believe Muhammad was not lying or hallucinating when he claimed to have long chats with God?

Of course I realize that by asking this question I may be contributing to mass depravity and a crisis of civilization. But I thought I'd risk it. That's just the kind of fanatic I am.

It should also be obvious from this that the supposed link between Dawkinsian atheism and Stalinist butchery is pure nonsense. Yes, Stalin did not believe in God. But he believed in History, Marxism, Leninism and all sorts of Hegelian mumbo-jumbo for which he had not the slightest evidence.

He was not a religious man, but he most certainly was a man of faith.

Dan Gardner's column appears Wednesday, Friday and Saturday. E-mail: dgardner@thecitizen.canwest.com

Snatch
10-19-2007, 02:46 PM
You beat me to it. I came across this article and was going to post it.

Varaj
10-23-2007, 04:08 PM
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2006/10/11/park/
http://jesusandmo.net/strips/2006-10-11.jpg

Atticus_of_Amber
10-23-2007, 07:09 PM
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2006/10/11/park/
http://jesusandmo.net/strips/2006-10-11.jpg

:lol:

Ancalagon
10-24-2007, 10:15 PM
As long as public funding of religion, religious interference with science, and policies putting the fate of souls ahead of the fate of human beings continue, the non-religious will continue to make noise about it. Those who support overt Christian interference with the government policy will continue to be quiet. Bank on it.

NRG

I would like to point out that many religious people firmly believe in the separation of church and state, thank you very much, and are quite upset by a lot of the idiocy we are seeing today.

Anywho...

I find it a bit sad that no one mentioned what was, to me, the more interesting part of the speech - the grudging acceptance by Harris of the notion of transcendence - which to me, is really the true core of religious thought.

Ancalagon

Atticus_of_Amber
10-24-2007, 10:39 PM
I find it a bit sad that no one mentioned what was, to me, the more interesting part of the speech - the grudging acceptance by Harris of the notion of transcendence - which to me, is really the true core of religious thought.

Ancalagon

Huh? I mean, wtf?

That's almost the central proposition of Harris' book The End of Faith. It's always been a key part of his case that transcendent experience can be understood and experienced without believing things on insufficient evidence.

And there's half a chapter on it in Hitchens' God Is Not Great.

And there's quite a bit on it in Dennett's Breaking the Spell; Religion as a Natural Phenomenon.

And, though it's not prominent in The God Delusion, its one of the themes of Dawkins earlier work, Unweaving the Rainbow.

I really get steamed when people criticised the New Atheists without udnerstanding the first thing about what they are saying. :mad:

Snatch
10-25-2007, 02:14 PM
I find it a bit sad that no one mentioned what was, to me, the more interesting part of the speech - the grudging acceptance by Harris of the notion of transcendence - which to me, is really the true core of religious thought.


The book End of Faith openly embraces the idea of transcendence. There's a really good chapter on consciousness too. Harris isn't grudgingly accepting it - he believes it is possible without relying or articles of faith or unproven "facts" (i.e. religious mythology).

Atticus_of_Amber
10-25-2007, 08:41 PM
YouTube video of the Harris' speech: http://richarddawkins.net/article,1805,Sam-Harris-at-AAI-07,RichardDawkinsnet

Pigs in Space
10-26-2007, 12:31 AM
Perhaps a more elegant response is this:

So in reference to that article - yes that is exactly what Dawkins says.

But the problem is that he is so bloody hostile about it. In fact his last book even has a "Why be so Hostile" chapter, in which he makes a lot of good points (again, although he had already made them earlier) in which he justfies his hostility.

But that's the damn point richard! You're like a kid banging on a pot with a wooden spoon. Yes we know you're there now thankyou. We've all heard about the concepts. But the technique is innefective. It's annoying. That's what's making people pissed off at the New Atheists Rich, and no we're not inviting you misanthrope's to our party, you bring the whole tone of it down.

Tetsubo
10-30-2007, 11:06 PM
One quick comment about Dawkins.

I wish he would stick to writing about evolutionary theories. The man is probably the greatest living mind on the topic.

But every time he mentions faith, he sounds like a raving zealot. Which does nothing but harm his other work and give atheists a bad name.

Pigs in Space
10-30-2007, 11:15 PM
Even so - he has definately brought a helluva lot more attention to the sort of stuff he's talking about. You can't deny that, and if it was his intention, it's pretty successful.

Atticus_of_Amber
10-31-2007, 02:21 AM
One quick comment about Dawkins.

I wish he would stick to writing about evolutionary theories. The man is probably the greatest living mind on the topic.

But every time he mentions faith, he sounds like a raving zealot. Which does nothing but harm his other work and give atheists a bad name.

Even so - he has definately brought a helluva lot more attention to the sort of stuff he's talking about. You can't deny that, and if it was his intention, it's pretty successful.

An important part of Dawkins' thinking, present from The Selfish Gene on through, is the way Darwinism undermines the God Hypothesis. In The God Delusion, he goes on to make some very interesting speculations on the possible applications of the neo-Darwinian insight to physics (much in the way he kicked off memetics in his appendix to The Selfish Gene).

Plus, in any less sensitive context, his tone would be considered pretty mild. Indeed, one of the few contributions of Hitchens to the New Atheism movement is to show what a "raving atheist zealot" actually looks like.

Still, it's Sam Harris who I find the most compelling, especially when I see him speak as in the video I linked to earlier. As another speaker said later in the conference, if that level of calm lucidity is what you get from spending three months meditating each year, then sign me up.

PS: I can't find it, but search GoogleVideo for Harris' debate with Chris Hedges. Hedges calls Harris a racists and the moderator piles on, yet Harris stays perfectly calm and rational throughout. Its actually pretty inspirational stuff.

Hastur T. Fannon
11-28-2007, 02:01 PM
And, though it's not prominent in The God Delusion, its one of the themes of Dawkins earlier work, Unweaving the Rainbow.

"To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious."

Amen, brother.

Atticus_of_Amber
11-28-2007, 05:23 PM
"To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious."

Amen, brother.

Exactly. You don't need all that theistic nonsense cluttering up your head and impairing your cognition to experience transcendence. You don't have to believe any kind of bullshit to experience the mystical.

So why not drop that theistic dead weight Richard? At worst its hurtful, at best it's like the zen master's finger pointing to the moon - stop looking at the finger and get on with looking at the moon. And while you're at it, realise that, aside from knowing the general direction of the moon and a couple of other useful things you could have learned elsewhere anyway, the master is full of shit.

Hastur T. Fannon
11-29-2007, 02:21 PM
So why not drop that theistic dead weight Richard?

The "theistic dead weight" helps guide, improve, channel and develop that transcendence

Atticus_of_Amber
11-29-2007, 05:17 PM
The "theistic dead weight" helps guide, improve, channel and develop that transcendence

Ok, so the master's finger is helpful because it usually points to the moon.

As Sam Harris says, moderate theism is pickpocket who lends you your own money back on generous terms.

But sometimes that's a useful psychological technique. Personal trainers use it all the time.

Hastur T. Fannon
12-02-2007, 09:30 AM
So why not drop that theistic dead weight Richard?

Ok, I stop believing that justice, fairness, etc. are anything other than useful fictions

I stop believing that my love for my family, my friends, my wife - even that "transcendence" is anything other than a chemical reaction in my brain

And I stop believing in the power of stories (so why bother being a writer?)

And I gain - what exactly? Cookies? A free toaster?

Atticus_of_Amber
12-02-2007, 04:12 PM
Ok, I stop believing that justice, fairness, etc. are anything other than useful fictions

I stop believing that my love for my family, my friends, my wife - even that "transcendence" is anything other than a chemical reaction in my brain

And I stop believing in the power of stories (so why bother being a writer?)

And I gain - what exactly? Cookies? A free toaster?

Why should dropping a belief in the supernatural require you to stop belorcing in those things? It didn't cause me to...

Hastur T. Fannon
12-02-2007, 04:43 PM
Why should dropping a belief in the supernatural require you to stop belorcing in those things? It didn't cause me to...

What do you mean by "supernatural"? Because I'd say that I don't believe in the supernatural as well...

(I'm sure we've had this discussion before....)

Atticus_of_Amber
12-02-2007, 05:15 PM
I'm sure we've had this discussion before....

Yes we have. And you lost.

Or have are you finally prepared to nominate the so called "excluded middle" or "dodgy premise" now you've had your sulk? If so, I'm happy to resume the discussion.

Hastur T. Fannon
12-02-2007, 05:33 PM
Yes we have. And you lost.

I didn't know it was a competition

Or have are you finally prepared to nominate the so called "excluded middle" or "dodgy premise" now you've had your sulk? If so, I'm happy to resume the discussion.

To be honest, I've been back through the relevant threads, and I can't follow your argument or mine. I can't even find the post were you stated your position

Atticus_of_Amber
12-02-2007, 05:44 PM
I didn't know it was a competition

"This ain't no summer kids. You come to class to do battle for your intellectual futures. I don't care what you believe, but if you have crappy arguments for it, I'll make you pay. Because, trust me, what ever I do to you is nothing compared to what a good judge will do if you use sloppy arguments in court."

Ooops, I forgot I wasn't teaching my old law class for a moment there...

To be honest, I've been back through the relevant threads, and I can't follow your argument or mine. I can't even find the post were you stated your position

The issue was whether "god" is solely a human-made intellectual/emotional construct ("just an idea"); or whether the man made idea also corresponds to and describes or points to (however imperfectly) something outside human minds.

My position was the former (on the balance of probabilities; beyond reasonable doubt if you go beyond deism and add the Abrahamic bells and whistles).

When I put the question to you you got, in my view, very emotional and evasive and accused me of falling into the fallacies of first the "excluded middle" (an accusation which you eventually withdrew) and/or that "one of my premises," which you never identified, "was dodgy."

As I said in the other thread, though, this argument may have to wait about ten hours or so, at least at my end.

Hastur T. Fannon
12-02-2007, 06:02 PM
The issue was whether "god" is solely a human-made intellectual/emotional construct ("just an idea"); or whether the man made idea also corresponds to and describes or points to (however imperfectly) something outside human minds.

Thank you. I hold the second position because I believe that it makes my life better and better for those around me

Atticus_of_Amber
12-02-2007, 06:10 PM
Thank you. I hold the second position because I believe that it makes my life better and better for those around me

Thanks. It seemed a lot harder to get as straight an answer from you last time, though...

However, in any case, isn't that an obvious non-sequiter? You believe in something about external reality because it makes you feel better inside? How is this different from the man who tells me that there's a ten tonne diamond buried in his back yard and, when I ask him how he knows this, says "The ten tonne diamond in my back yard 'makes my life better and better for those around me'??

EDIT: Moreover, Dawkins and I can be "Atheists for Jesus" (the title of an article he once wrote and the slogan on T-shirt he's often photographed wearing) and get the same benefits. Hell, I'm not just an "Atheist for Jesus", I'm an "Atheist for religious practice and community" (not such a snappy slogan, I know - but I'm no Richard Dawkins).

Hastur T. Fannon
12-03-2007, 06:50 AM
Thanks. It seemed a lot harder to get as straight an answer from you last time, though...

I don't believe you've stated your position in this form before. Certainly, last time I either missed the "also" from the second position or it wasn't there. Hence my comments about the excluded middle

How is this different from the man who tells me that there's a ten tonne diamond buried in his back yard and, when I ask him how he knows this, says "The ten tonne diamond in my back yard 'makes my life better and better for those around me'??

I think there's two differences

Firstly, the idea that there's a ten tonne diamond buried in the back yard is empirically testable. A theistic deity is not

Secondly, it's difficult to imagine how believe in a ten tonne diamond would improve live for the believer and those around him

Hastur T. Fannon
12-03-2007, 06:52 AM
Why should dropping a belief in the supernatural require you to stop belorcing in those things? It didn't cause me to...

I've just noticed something. During our previous train wreak, you asked me how I knew that my feelings of transcendence had any independent reality (i.e are anything more than chemical reactions in my brain). Was that a rhetorical device or have you shifted your position?

(I'm assuming that typo was supposed to be 'believing')

Hastur T. Fannon
12-05-2007, 07:29 AM
Some clarification: Atticus, do you believe that of the following statements are true? If so, why?

1) Justice, fairness and similar concepts are more than simply useful fictions

2) Your love for your wife is anything more than a chemical reaction in your brain

3) Any (other?) feelings of transcendance that you experience are more than simply chemical reactions in your brain

Atticus_of_Amber
12-05-2007, 05:12 PM
I don't believe you've stated your position in this form before. Certainly, last time I either missed the "also" from the second position or it wasn't there. Hence my comments about the excluded middle.

ARRRR!!!! Richard, "also" was always there and the reason I got so angry with you and Northcott is that you kept ignoring it. Not just me but several other posters pointed that out to you both. Hell I even drew a Venn diagram!

I think there's two differences

Firstly, the idea that there's a ten tonne diamond buried in the back yard is empirically testable. A theistic deity is not

Miracles are. And they've never survived popper testing where we've been able to do so. The resurrection would also have been testable if we were able to go back in time with modern technology.

But ok: There's an invisible, intangible, ethereal ten tonne diamond buried in my back yard and I know this because it makes my life better.

Secondly, it's difficult to imagine how believe in a ten tonne diamond would improve live for the believer and those around him

You're wrong: "It gives me hope of massive wealth when I find it. My family have become so close sharing the work to dig for it every weekend. it brings us together. I know that I have to be morally pure in order to find the diamond because believing *that* makes me a better person. I wouldn't want to live in a world where there wasn't a ten tonne [invisible, intangible, ethereal] diamond buried in my back yard."

But even if you were right, so what? How can the fact that a belief makes you a better person be relevant to the question of whether that belief is true? It's an elementary logical error.

I've just noticed something. During our previous train wreak, you asked me how I knew that my feelings of transcendence had any independent reality (i.e are anything more than chemical reactions in my brain). Was that a rhetorical device or have you shifted your position?

(I'm assuming that typo was supposed to be 'believing')

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Some clarification: Atticus, do you believe that of the following statements are true? If so, why?

1) Justice, fairness and similar concepts are more than simply useful fictions

I'm not sure what you mean here. It smells like a category error to me. These are human concepts that have their genesis in a complex of evolved emotional reactions present in all primates. I think you need to clarify what you mean by "useful fiction".

2) Your love for your wife is anything more than a chemical reaction in your brain

Again, I don't quite know what you mean. My love for my wife is a piece of software that's been built up over time that's running on my brain. My brain has some wiring and firmware that triggers a desire to get very close to one human whom I'm sexually attracted to and find personally admirable and compatible. That desire evolved in my species as a means of guaranteeing pair-bonds stay together long enough to raise children (to be more precise, the geneplex that produced pair-bonding in its carriers had a reproductive advantage because its carriers stayed together and thereby increased the survival chances of their young). But regardless of its evolutionary explanation, I find that evolved capacity to love extremely fulfilling and I've made a rational decision to pursue it, despite having no intention to raise children.

3) Any (other?) feelings of transcendance that you experience are more than simply chemical reactions in your brain

Again they are features (often side-effects) of the hardware, firmware and software. One of the most profound of those experiences is achievable through meditation where one realises that the self is just an idea, that there's no difference between "my" arm and "your" arm, "my" arm and the desk. Many of these features are evolutionary side-effects or accidents - others have adaptive roles. But who cares? They enrich our subjective experience and hence are worth pursuing. However, there's no need to dis-connect that other great evolved piece of firm ware, our capacity for ruthless logical and empirical reasoning, in order to enjoy those experiences. Indeed, the evidence suggests that applying reason to the subjective experience of transcendence may improve our enjoyment of it.

As Daniel Dennett is fond of saying, "Yes, we have a soul. But it's made up of thousands of tiny robots." The robots are called neurones and the soul is a particularly fundamental piece of software.

Hastur T. Fannon
12-06-2007, 01:02 PM
Miracles are. And they've never survived popper testing where we've been able to do so. The resurrection would also have been testable if we were able to go back in time with modern technology.

Nice pun, but miracles are not evidence of a theistic deity. It could be space aliens doing them

But even if you were right, so what? How can the fact that a belief makes you a better person be relevant to the question of whether that belief is true?

What do you mean by "belief"?
What do you mean by "believe"?
What do you mean by "true"?

Atticus_of_Amber
12-11-2007, 05:05 AM
What do you mean by "belief"?
What do you mean by "believe"?
What do you mean by "true"?

However, in Brynja's brain explosion thread you wrote:

Here you go (http://www.kaytastrophe.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1218&page=8)

However, I've now forgotten the thread of my argument. I think we're at cross-purposes as to the meaning of the verb "to believe in"

If you can recapture the thread, let me know.

As to the nature of belief, Sam Harris has just published a co-authored neuroscience article (I think it may be part of the final phase of his long delayed PhD). Se here: here (http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/annals-of-neurology-functional-neuroimaging-of-belief-disbelief-and-uncerta/).

Hastur T. Fannon
12-11-2007, 05:44 AM
As to the nature of belief, Sam Harris has just published a co-authored neuroscience article (I think it may be part of the final phase of his long delayed PhD). Se here: here (http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/annals-of-neurology-functional-neuroimaging-of-belief-disbelief-and-uncerta/).

Nice article - thanks for the link. The idea that disbelief lights up the same area in the brain as disgust is powerful and sheds light on why people have such strong responses to what they perceive as "heretical". However, I'm not sure that "Belief and disbelief differ from uncertainty in that both provide information that can subsequently inform behavior and emotion". That seems intutively wrong - not knowing whether something is true or not can provide an emotional spur to find out the truth

I see the phrase "to believe in" to be subtly different to "I believe".

"I believe in" is a statement of emotional commitment; it's more emphatic than "I believe". I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not the statement is empirically true or false

Atticus_of_Amber
12-11-2007, 03:07 PM
Nice article - thanks for the link. The idea that disbelief lights up the same area in the brain as disgust is powerful and sheds light on why people have such strong responses to what they perceive as "heretical". However, I'm not sure that "Belief and disbelief differ from uncertainty in that both provide information that can subsequently inform behavior and emotion". That seems intutively wrong - not knowing whether something is true or not can provide an emotional spur to find out the truth

I see the phrase "to believe in" to be subtly different to "I believe".

"I believe in" is a statement of emotional commitment; it's more emphatic than "I believe". I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not the statement is empirically true or false

Harris' study would weigh against that. He thinks all the CBT studies showing the amazing links between beliefs and emotional states are making one subtle but fundamental error - beliefs ARE emotional states.

Hastur T. Fannon
12-12-2007, 04:28 AM
Harris' study would weigh against that. He thinks all the CBT studies showing the amazing links between beliefs and emotional states are making one subtle but fundamental error - beliefs ARE emotional states.

Can you expand on this a little? I'm not sure I understand

Atticus_of_Amber
12-13-2007, 12:08 AM
Can you expand on this a little? I'm not sure I understand

Cognitive-Behaviour Therapy (CBT) and Rational-Emotive therapy have demonstrated that there is an intimate connection between beliefs and emotions. Depressed people exhibit certain beliefs. Causing them to abandon these beliefs (through persuasion, hypnosis or, in the cause of the more controversial therapies, full-on brainwashing techniques) is in many cases more effective than drugs in curing their depression (takes longer, but also tends to be permanent, where drugs tend to be temporary). Similar results hold for various addictions and phobias (though not, interestingly, for post traumatic stress disorder). CBT tends to work better in people who are highly educated.

This had lead to a lot of speculation as to the relationship between emotional states and beliefs.

Harris' hypothesis is that we are missing the obvious - beliefs ARE emotions. They are the same kind of thing, just at different levels. That is to say, the difference between an emotion and a belief is a bit like the difference between our reptile brain and our cerebral cortex.

In other words, depression is just the belief that you are helpless Seligman's "Learned helplessness") at the emotional level. Articulated it and persuade someone out of it and they stop being depressed (easier said that done. of course).

Anger is the beleif that you have been wronged. Etc...

Hastur T. Fannon
12-13-2007, 05:00 AM
So "I believe in" is just stating a more intense level of emotion commitment that "I believe". I can dig that

And jumping back a few steps: the level of my emotional commitment to a proposition has no relevence to whether that proposition maps onto some external reality

So what?

Tetsubo
12-13-2007, 07:35 AM
Cognitive-Behaviour Therapy (CBT) and Rational-Emotive therapy have demonstrated that there is an intimate connection between beliefs and emotions. Depressed people exhibit certain beliefs. Causing them to abandon these beliefs (through persuasion, hypnosis or, in the cause of the more controversial therapies, full-on brainwashing techniques) is in many cases more effective than drugs in curing their depression (takes longer, but also tends to be permanent, where drugs tend to be temporary). Similar results hold for various addictions and phobias (though not, interestingly, for post traumatic stress disorder). CBT tends to work better in people who are highly educated.

This had lead to a lot of speculation as to the relationship between emotional states and beliefs.

Harris' hypothesis is that we are missing the obvious - beliefs ARE emotions. They are the same kind of thing, just at different levels. That is to say, the difference between an emotion and a belief is a bit like the difference between our reptile brain and our cerebral cortex.

In other words, depression is just the belief that you are helpless Seligman's "Learned helplessness") at the emotional level. Articulated it and persuade someone out of it and they stop being depressed (easier said that done. of course).

Anger is the beleif that you have been wronged. Etc...

I would tend to agree with this. It pretty much is how I have dealt with my own depression. Though I've done it on my own and could never articulate it so well. :)

Atticus_of_Amber
12-13-2007, 02:01 PM
I would tend to agree with this. It pretty much is how I have dealt with my own depression. Though I've done it on my own and could never articulate it so well. :)

In that case, I *really* recommend Seligman's book "Leared Helplessness".

Tetsubo
12-13-2007, 03:56 PM
In that case, I *really* recommend Seligman's book "Leared Helplessness".

Oddly one of the books that had a major impact on me was -Deep Survival-, which deals with examples of people in survival situations, both successful and failures... -Reviving Ophelia- was also a help... help can come from the strangest places...