Yet another new "Right"...

[Harry]

The Right to Say "Fuck" in Someone Else's Business:

Brooklyn Man Kicked Off Plane For Cursing Is Considering Legal Action

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/06/13/137157095/brooklyn-man-thrown-off-plane-for-cursing-is-considering-legal-action?ft=1&f=1001

Robert Sayegh, a 37-year-old Brooklyn man, was kicked off a plane for using the f-word two times. The Detroit Free Press reports that Sayegh was on a Delta Connect flight after his cousin's wedding in Kansas City on Sunday. The flight was 45 minutes delayed, when Sayegh complained to a fellow passenger using the expletive:

"It's ridiculous and embarrassing," the television producer and children's book author said this morning from his home in Brooklyn. "I was just kind of talking to the guy sitting next to me. I said 'What is taking so long?' I said "What the 'F' is going on?' " Sayegh said. "I could see if I directed it at (the flight attendant), but I didn't even speak to him."

Atlantic Southeast Airlines Flight 5136, which had been taxiing on the runway, turned around and Detroit Metro Airport Police boarded the plane to escort Sayegh off.

Atlantic Southeast operates flights for Delta Connect. The airline is investigating the incident, reports the Detroit News. They told the paper that Sayegh was accommodated on a later flight. The paper reports that Sayegh is thinking of suing the airline:

Sayegh said he was told only after he left the plane that he was removed for being "disruptive," and airport police never filed a report.

"It wasn't like I stood up like a crazy maniac and was screaming, 'Move the plane!'" said Sayegh, who said he grew up in Brooklyn where "we curse as adjectives."

Sayegh told the News that he was not drunk, just hungover.


You're saying you're special because you're from Brooklyn? Fuck you, I don't give a flying fuck. People everywhere curse. Church ladies curse. In church. I work in a grocery store. Let me tell you, when no one is around, we cuss like sailors. But no, you AREN'T allowed to cuss on the sales floor, where and when anyone can hear you. Yes, you will get punished and or fired if combined with other acts. You are not allowed in any public place to just cuss around any old stranger, or where any old employee has to listen to you. Not unless you are, in fact, trying to stir shit up which is what you are denying you were doing.

The quickest way for a customer to get tossed out of my store or any other store is to start cussing loudly enough for others to be bothered by it. And you will get tossed even more quickly if you cuss one of my people, or curse their service. And I can kick people out all day for it, and corporate will back me up, you whiny little smug, self-righteous fucking bastard.

In fact, I can only cuss here because Bella allows it. My other main forums, I'd get banned in no time. Cussing is not proper in every environment, in every setting, in whatever situation YOU may deem it OK, any more so that excessive, intentional farting would be. The model club I'm in, I dropped an eff-bomb my second or third month in, and people STILL remember me as the one with the potty mouth. Embarrassing, because I KNOW most of those guys cuss. Just not in the clubhouse.

Sayegh told the News that he was not drunk, just hungover.

You know, if a cop pulled you over in that state, you'd probably still blow over the limit?

I don't care where you are from, you don't have the right to be a rude and impolite little fuckwad. That IS being disruptive if you are in a small, controlled environment with complete strangers. I'd bet money your seat-mate found you to be a complete ass.

[Droid101]

Where do you draw the line, Harry? Nowadays, shit is okay to say on TV later at night (even fuck on some stations). Ten years ago? Not a chance in hell!

The times change.... so who defines what words are bad enough to be "kicked out" of somewhere?

[cnath.rm]

The times change.... so who defines what words are bad enough to be "kicked out" of somewhere?It's a very legitimate question, but for myself I'd default the answer to being "whoever's business you are standing in".

A few years back in MI a guy tipped his canoe over and started swearing, unfortunately for him he was within earshot of a family or two also out on the river, thus making him in violation of the MI law against swearing in front of women and children. Iirr he was fined, appealed, and lost.

[Harry]

Where do you draw the line, Harry? Nowadays, shit is okay to say on TV later at night (even fuck on some stations). Ten years ago? Not a chance in hell!

The times change.... so who defines what words are bad enough to be "kicked out" of somewhere?

In a private place of business, you don't have that right. I am not talking about out on the street, or in your favorite hangout or bar. But in a private business, you don't. Hell, you don't in many public places, like a court. But certainly you don't have that right in a private and confined place.

I cuss. I cuss tons. But I don't have the right to cuss in my father's house. I don't have the right to cuss at the doctor's office. I don't have the right to cuss on a bus. I've been told by a cabbie before not to cuss.

So no, it's not a right.

No, late night TV is not the same thing.

[Name Lips]

I've never heard fuck or shit on network TV. Don't have cable.

It still surprises me when they say ass.

I grew up in a non-cursing house. There weren't rules against it. It just wasn't in the vocabulary. There was a sort of unspoken feeling that it just wasn't the sort of thing that intelligent, educated, civil people did.

Even now when I know that that isn't really true, I don't. It's just not the way I talk. It doesn't offend or surprise me, it sounds normal and natural for other people, but weird and alien if I do it.

I'd be surprised to see somebody kicked off a plane for 2 fucks, if he wasn't being overtly loud or obnoxious in other ways too. So I'm assuming this isn't the whole story.

[Pigs in Space]

So you can kick me off a plane for having a private conversation with someone else that you disagree with?

I think he should sue. That's fucking ridiculous.

[shiningbrow]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011110613013

The fellow was accommodated on a later flight by the same airline that had taken him off. The difference between this passenger and someone walking in the aisles of a grocery store, is that the passenger has already paid for his right to occupy the seat. Given he was not being disruptive or threatening to the other passengers, perhaps his utterance was rude and ill advised, but it's hard to understand how that gave the airline the right to forcibly eject him from the plane.

I remember an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry David was shopping around an idea for a new sitcom intended to feature Julia Louis-Dreyfuss who expressed a preference for HBO. Why? Because "I want to be able to say, 'fuck.'" This is something she can't do on network tv. It's assumed that HBO has a self-selecting audience that does not find this expletive offensive. And there are different codes of conduct/standards of decency w/respect to licensing on public airwaves versus cable.

The situation is more nuanced in the case of the airline. I'd assume they'd have to demonstrate that he was bothering other customers and causing a loss of business in order to make claims allowing him to be kicked off, and even then, I'd question the legality.

What if he was not using any obscenities, or making any threatening remarks, but loudly talking about what an idiot Sarah Palin was. What if the other passengers were conservatives who took umbrage at his opinions. Unpopular speech is protected, the question is how far the right extends.

How much censorship should a private business be allowed to impose on its customers, especially when the service provided requires the confinement of said passengers for an extended period of time? There is a controlled environment in which certain behaviors are regulated for reasons of safety. These include fastening seat belts, stowing electronic devices, restricting times when passengers are allowed to move about the cabin, and also requiring that no false threats or disruptive behaviors be engaged. The question of limiting which curses are allowed opens a can of worms. I think it's likely that the airline would lose the case. It's one thing for someone to flaunt a well established rule, say, to light up a cigarette. That's clear cut. Saying "fuck" is another matter. It's rude and inconsiderate but I don't think it invalidates the airline's obligation to fulfill the contract that the ticket represents.

This really just seems like a job for Varaj.

[Radu]

I would get thrown out of your store for saying "fuck," but not saying something even more offensive, like "Hanson was a really good band, you know? They really re-defined music."

You've got some fucked up priorities, Harry. :shock:

[Harry]

Not my "priorities", and I didn't come up with them, but the rules are there for a reason. You can't go cussing up a storm around the store. I agree with SBs post to a good degree, and I haven't quite wrapped my head around the whole front and back end of the issue - but you can't go around a retail store doing it without someone calling store management - not an employee, a customer will ask for someone to do something. Which is why we do what we do. In my old business, you were free to cuss - in a couple of my stores. Two of the others, the clientele would not have stood for it. In any of the stores, you couldn't do it in anger.

[Lucita]

They should have just had him put a quarter in the Swear Jar and have been done with it.

[Brynja]

This is silly. From what I am reading he has no couth but he wasn't disruptive.

[Pigs in Space]

This is silly. From what I am reading he has no couth but he wasn't disruptive.

Up next: Australians banned from all US flights.

[DarwinOfMind]

You can kick me out of your house for anything you want or nothing at all. You can kick me out of your business for anything or nothing. They are private property. I don't have a right to be in someones house, someone's business, someone's car, or someone's plane. I can follow there rules or I can buy my own plane.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

[Harry]

This is silly. From what I am reading he has no couth but he wasn't disruptive.

This is what I find terribly hard to believe. See that other bit I highlighted at the end of story? All this strikes me as a case of someone being a dick publicly, he admits to being "hung-over" and I'm more than willing to bet it was more than that, since he feels the need to mention it, who turns his asshattery into a Constitutional issue.

[shiningbrow]

Magic mouse just ate my response. Jesus.

Doesn't matter if the guy is a dick. What matters here is that operating a commercial airline in the US is done under governmental regulations with a license and that probably means restrictions on how the business can treat customers. Includes items like how many restrooms, how long they can be required to sit in seats on tarmac and stuff like how their behavior can and cannot be regulated. I don't know more than that, I just have suspicions that the airline probably overstepped here and their subsequent behavior suggests they think they probably did, too. A good judge would probably award the plaintiff in such a lawsuit a dollar in damages.

[Droid101]

In a private place of business, you don't have that right. I am not talking about out on the street, or in your favorite hangout or bar. But in a private business, you don't. Hell, you don't in many public places, like a court. But certainly you don't have that right in a private and confined place.
.

You didn't answer the question...

So, I'm assuming your arbitrary rule states "Fuck" isn't allowed. But what if I said "ass"? Pussy? Cocks? What if I'm talking about animals?

Seriously, make a list, and check it twice.

[Atropine Mama]

There are days when the only word I allow spoken in my home is "Marklar". Anyone who disrupts this private environment is thrown out, but they inevitably sue me, and I am ashamed. But I never have to change my policy.

Next week I'm planning a day where we are only allowed to say "NEE!"

[Trainz]

There are days when the only word I allow spoken in my home is "Marklar". Anyone who disrupts this private environment is thrown out, but they inevitably sue me, and I am ashamed. But I never have to change my policy.

Next week I'm planning a day where we are only allowed to say "NEE!"

NUH?

[Varaj]

Magic mouse just ate my response. Jesus.

Doesn't matter if the guy is a dick. What matters here is that operating a commercial airline in the US is done under governmental regulations with a license and that probably means restrictions on how the business can treat customers. Includes items like how many restrooms, how long they can be required to sit in seats on tarmac and stuff like how their behavior can and cannot be regulated. I don't know more than that, I just have suspicions that the airline probably overstepped here and their subsequent behavior suggests they think they probably did, too. A good judge would probably award the plaintiff in such a lawsuit a dollar in damages.


The air carriers are quasi public utilities (were fully public utilities until Airline Deregulation Act of 1978), they are mandated to "providing services without unreasonable discrimination, unfair or deceptive practices, or predatory pricing"
If we have the whole story, which I question, I would think most courts would rule that the airline did not have reasonable cause to discriminate. The courts have usually limited reasonable cause to severe disturbance, non compliance of safety, etc.

[Pigs in Space]

NUH?

You're cut, shushy.

[Glass]

This is what I find terribly hard to believe. See that other bit I highlighted at the end of story? All this strikes me as a case of someone being a dick publicly, he admits to being "hung-over" and I'm more than willing to bet it was more than that, since he feels the need to mention it, who turns his asshattery into a Constitutional issue.
Seriously. I've known enough guys just like that(a few were even from Brooklyn) to think that we don't have anything close to the truth, other than that this guy cursed on a plane.

[emerald]

I would not call saying fuck twice, cussing up a storm. I would say that only way the airline could defend its self is if a flight attendant had come over and said "Please watch your language" or "Your languague is disturbing other passengers" or the like and he continued to do so. Then I would say they were totally justified.

[hobbiteer]

I may be in the minority on this but my opinion is that all speech should be protected. Yes, even hate speech, cursing, or threating speech. And why do I believe this? Because the word freedom is defined as such:
1. personal liberty, as opposed to imprisonment or slavery
2. exemption from external control
3. political or national independence
4. exemption from the presence of something unpleasant (usually fol. by from)
5. ease of movement, action, or social interaction
6. rights and privileges, as of citizenship; civil liberty
7. right to use something

I believe it is a right, to express your thoughts (whatever they may be) using whatever words you wish to. If it upsets someone, they can express their discontent with their words.
Words, and opinions go hand in hand. Not everybody agrees with everybody else, but everybody has a right to use the facilities their body provides. That includes their voice. People should be allowed to speak as they choose with no reprocussions.

In this specific case, I am of the opinion the airline acted outside their power.

If they have "rules" that need to be followed, such as no cursing, those should be clearly presented online or at the ticket booth. This way a purchase of a ticket could be a legally binding agreement to the "rules" and then infraction could be punished as refusal of service with refund and a blacklisting of their name or something.

Air travel has always been a horrible experience for me. Cramped conditions, invasive "security", and antiquated electronic rules. I want to, and do, curse every time I fly.